City Elf derail#1837

[RogueGunslinger]

Give city elves maxed steal. You know, because they're all thieves.

Give city elves a tribe. You know, because they're extremely tribal.

I dare someone to put up a competent argument against either of these two ideas.

1) Pickpocketing is a novice view of "thievery". Elves can steal in many ways, and the way in which they view getting the leg up on others is not just picking pockets. Thus, you could have a competent elf that is well-respected in their society that has never stolen anything with the "steal" command.

2) City elves do have a tribe. They have virtual tribes, as has already been stated.

Done.

1. Steal is a cultural thing not a natural ability, even if the inclination is genetic, so even elves have to practice and start out as novice.

They do start out novice, but should be able to master steal, that's what I'm talking about, sorry if I was unclear.


As for tribes being virtual... If you think that's enough to represent the race in the game then okay. Why do we have coded d-elf tribes? Or coded human tribes?  Why have any tribes coded? If you find an answer to that question I want to ask yourself another one. Who should have a coded tribe, if anyone?

Probably the race that has its documented culture almost entirely built around tribalism.

As for the steal skill. Should every elf be a master pickpocket? No, but I think any elf should be able to become a master pickpocket, with training and time. As much if not more so than I think any breed should be able to ride with two weapons out, or any Allanaki should suddenly be knowledgeable with slashing weapons.

I'm just saying if the two major focal points of a race is tribalism and stealing then it makes as much sense to represent that with code as anything else that's documented, and if we're talking about ways to make city-elves better, that exactly where I would start.

[Harmless]

Okay let's talk code.

Young age gives a boost to agi.

All young c elves have really good agi.

Agi boosts steal.

All young c elves should be pretty competent pickpockets.

If they get busted the popo are more likely to pity and release or fine a brat.

As c elves age they slow down. Only those who take stealing by hand seriously keep up pickpocketing enough to still be good. Those other slower elves  who aren't pickpockets learn other heists or talents. They elaborate and diversify their talents.

I say keep it as is. If you want to steal as say,  a c elf warrior, start at the youngest age. Make a modest living stealing while you learn to fight. Same for assassins. Learn killing arts and live off stealing while you're young. As you get slower, you're also a little stronger. Now your strikes mean something. You can kill now. Ditch the stealing coins habit and take lives instead.

[Patuk]

I don't really think master steal is the solution per se.

But I do think that if half-elves can collectively get master ride, there at least is some precedent for a racial skill buff.

[Revenant]

Could also give them master peek, that'd go a long way. Their haggle, if I recall correctly, is extremely low, could use a boost as well.

[Patuk]

If anything, I think elves should actually get the wisdom bonus the docs say they have first. Comparing mana between my elf and human mages makes it very clear to me it's negligent. Wisdom isn't a very popular stat anyway, and I really think that if elves are gonna have sucky endurance/strength, decent wisdom isn't much to ask for.

[Jihelu]

Let's give them the ability to ride mounts when traveling outside and Celves become op.

Or we can do something good.

Celves being able to master steal seems legit.

[Majikal]

Nothing really to be said about c-elves. The only interest I've ever really had in c-elves is as mages with an explanation on why they have no tribe, or rinthers with active c-elves in the rinth. At least in the rinth you get to experience a bit of a 'tribal clan' situation if you find some other like-minded neckers to kick it with.

Update on c-elves:
Stats suck.
Virtual 'tribes' suck.
Restrictions suck.

Don't need coded camps or anything, just adding a few preset celf 'tribes' you could put in your background and not need to app into would go a long way to making it playable. Do a bit of a helpfile on each of the tribes to give them some personal flavor. At least then another player could hop in and bam, u haz tribe support.

[Cind]

Byr told me once that 'there's nothing in the documentation that says elves can't greb' so you've got another category of jobs right there. For people like me, who find the criminal life kind of difficult to play.

[RogueGunslinger]

Cindy! I missed you.

[Jihelu]

Remember.
Now matter the circumstance, someone will think it is sexy.
Celf prostitution is the only life style.

[Revenant]

Remember.
Now matter the circumstance, someone will think it is sexy.
Celf prostitution is the only life style.

I have done this. Good luck.

[spicemustflow]

Cindy! I missed you.

+1

[Barsook]

Cindy! I missed you.

+1

[Cind]

Aww. Its okay, I never left, I simply posted under about seven other usernames.

[Barsook]

And we never figured it out.

[Cind]

With the playerbase becoming more consolidated, we could open the jaxa pah... damn it, I would play in that if it were open and I weren't already committed to my character. I'm one of those types that keeps trying elves occasionally, because I would like them if they had a reliable way to eat.

[BadSkeelz]

With the playerbase becoming more consolidated, we could open the jaxa pah... damn it, I would play in that if it were open and I weren't already committed to my character. I'm one of those types that keeps trying elves occasionally, because I would like them if they had a reliable way to eat.

See Nyr's signature

[Patuk]

I still have an application to create a tribe running. Just wait.

[HavokBlue]

I think it took me a couple stints in the dungeons way back when before I got bored and hungry enough to try eating the cockroaches.

[Patuk]

Having a tribe would be great though, imagine actually talkingto people while jailed!

[HavokBlue]

no tribes

[Patuk]

Hey, I got a reply to my request two days ago, and it was somewhat positive at least. I'm pretty sure I made Nyr groan a little from reading through it all, but soon.

[Rathustra]

hey guys if theres something i love almost as much as tuluk its city elfs

[HavokBlue]

on April 27th, city elves will become virtual, allowing staff to focus their efforts on humans. They will still be there, and they will still virtually steal your items, I personally guarantee it

- Nyrthustradhira

[Rathustra]

shit

[nauta]

Hey, I got a reply to my request two days ago, and it was somewhat positive at least. I'm pretty sure I made Nyr groan a little from reading through it all, but soon.

I think it's fantastic that you are pursuing this.  I, for one, would play a c-elf in Nak if they had non-virtual tribes (or at least some access to a broader range of plots).

[bardlyone]

what you never counted on was players seeing it coming, amirite?

[Patuk]

I will allow anyone not Havokblue a chance to apply for a spot in the rolecall. Havokblue's characters all invoke Zalanthan murphy's law, which I'd rather keep faaaaaar away, and insomniac pacific dudes don't mix with my timezone very well.

[HavokBlue]

We are not discussing our plans openly at this point but what I CAN tell you is that there will be new NPCs to fulfill critical functions formerly provided by city elven PCs. We do not have any updates on moving the jail closer to the criminals that we can share at this time.

[FantasyWriter]

You know... it is possible to form a group of celves now that may eventually come to trust one another enough to call them tribe.
Coded support for clans is overrated (and that too, is now possible IG without a precoded elf tribe).
Stop asking staff if you can have fun playing the game. Start having fun playing the game and just do it.

[RogueGunslinger]

You know... it is possible to form a group of celves now that may eventually come to trust one another enough to call them tribe.
Coded support for clans is overrated (and that too, is now possible IG without a precoded elf tribe).
Stop asking staff if you can have fun playing the game. Start having fun playing the game and just do it.

Eh, no.

[Jihelu]

I don't see why a small group of elves couldn't hook up together.
Not full on Tribe but more so "We pool our money together and we buy food occasionally don't invite people you stupid nerds" type thing.
Of course you should probably trust them with your life and probably steal with them or some shit.

[FantasyWriter]

I  too would prefer that there was at least one city elf tribe in Nak. And I can count on one hand the number of elves I've played (one of which was a Jaxa Pah face when they first opened).
But if all the people that always complain about no elf tribes on the GDB rolled up an elf in Nak at the same time.... well... You wouldn't have anything to gripe about anymore. This is one of the instances where you truly can be the change.

[FantasyWriter]

I don't see why a small group of elves couldn't hook up together.
Not full on Tribe but more so "We pool our money together and we buy food occasionally don't invite people you stupid nerds" type thing.
Of course you should probably trust them with your life and probably steal with them or some shit.

Right, it would be a very slow and drawn out development, but it IS possible.

[nauta]

I  too would prefer that there was at least one city elf tribe in Nak. And I can count on one hand the number of elves I've played (one of which was a Jaxa Pah face when they first opened).
But if all the people that always complain about no elf tribes on the GDB rolled up an elf in Nak at the same time.... well... You wouldn't have anything to gripe about anymore. This is one of the instances where you truly can be the change.

But PC elves don't trust each other since they aren't of the same tribe!  Indeed, at least the elves I've seen distrusted each other more than they did humans.  Hence, you'd have to do this year-long trust game with them, during which they'll probably die.  It'd be nice to have a group of PC elves who you were able to trust by default.  It doesn't have to be big, and it certainly doesn't have to be coded -- I believe Patuk's submission is a submission for the recently announced family/tribe stuff.  He's just doing what all of us are too lazy to do: the paperwork.

[BadSkeelz]

City Elves have all been locked in the walls kanking each other enough that you can probably stretch reasoning enough to consider every other City Elf, if not a tribe member, at least related kin.

[Jihelu]

Maybe we should reinvent the whole 'virtual city elf tribe' thing.
I feel like it makes a lot of boundries with other elves.
Maybe I know nothing about elves though.

[Patuk]

I hope I work the application out with staff in time for Tuluk's closing now. Somehow, for three ex nobles/templars to turn elf appeals to me immensely.

[RogueGunslinger]

I'm for re-inventing c-elves if that's what it takes for them to make any sense.

[KankWhisperer]

I'm for re-inventing c-elves if that's what it takes for them to make any sense.

I actually agree with you. 

[Jihelu]

I feel like completely throwing out Virtual tribes is a possibility. Maybe leave it with Celves having no tribes, but large as hell families and mini organizations that mimic human merchant houses and what not?
They moved to the city for a reason I imagine. Keeping the tribe could have people tracking your loved ones easier/calling you a tribal sissy.

Though that is probably a bad idea.

[valeria]

You know... it is possible to form a group of celves now that may eventually come to trust one another enough to call them tribe.

I was going to do this a relatively short time ago, and then I was specifically told that it was not okay.  But you say "now" like you have had a different experience.  Still, I'd check with staff before making this your goal.

[BadSkeelz]

At this rate I'd just do it anyway and dare staff to store you all.

[MeTekillot]

Ask for forgiveness, not permission.

[Patuk]

You do it, I put work into my app. Nyr told me february isn't nanowrimo, even.

[Cind]

I'm for re-inventing c-elves if that's what it takes for them to make any sense.

I actually agree with you. 

[FantasyWriter]

You know... it is possible to form a group of celves now that may eventually come to trust one another enough to call them tribe.

I was going to do this a relatively short time ago, and then I was specifically told that it was not okay.  But you say "now" like you have had a different experience.  Still, I'd check with staff before making this your goal.

By "now" I meant that you have the ability for a group of elves to come together in the same way that a group of any other race would come together. (player created clans).
Not all tribes currently existing in the world have always existed throughout reverse eternity, or will exist forever.  Some tribes are formed from other tribes splitting either because of unrest between factions or because their environment can no longer sustain their numbers.  Some tribes are formed by the gathering of smaller tribes or family groups or individuals.

The fact that staff doesn't like PCs elves coming together to form small tribes within the walls of the city, doesn't change the fact that tribeless elves, armed with their overwhelming distrust for anyone but themselves, will likely find much reason to apply tests to determine those that are loyal, and those that are not. *bolded sections are excepts from the elven roleplay docs*  Staff has something against anyone coming together and calling themselves a tribe.  They only reason I've ever come up with for this is the dislike of the "loyalty" that the term implies.  I was playing a Kuraci once who was assisting an off-the-books minion and their mate rebuild a dying tribe.  We were pretty much told they couldn't call yourself a tribe IG.  Being restricted on the words that your PC uses in-character is kind of silly in my opinion.  I was also part of a long-lasting group of magickers that was esscentially working toward the same thing (this was probably two or three years after the Kuraci, and I never got any kind of ruff from staff in my reports referring to them as such (my PC was a escaped slave who's tribe had been enslaved or wiped out by Borsail, so his tribal mindset may have give me a pass when it came to OOC reports).

In order to be, in all forms of the word, a true "tribe" the group would probably need to last through two or three generations until at least some bond of blood and family is there.  But you are still going to need new blood coming in less you end up as inbred as Tuluki nobles (the real reason why Tuluk society is soon to crumble), but I hope the idea comes across.  That said, being told your group of mutually loyalty-tested elves can't call themselves a tribe while in game is, to me, about as silly as being docked karma for calling a surmac a hat in game.

[Patuk]

We get it. Everything is fine, elves can band together like it ain't no thang. I'm still going to be excited for my app.

[valeria]

That said, being told your group of mutually loyalty-tested elves can't call themselves a tribe while in game is, to me, about as silly as being docked karma for calling a surmac a hat in game.

You're preaching to the choir.  In my opinion, being able to form unrelated "tribes" out of the box through character applications/family roles is a completely different creature than banding together to make a "tribe" through IC events.  Still, where the line was drawn for me in May 2014 is that I could trust-test and band together with other elves all you want, but I would not be allowed to call these elves my character's "tribe."  It completely ruined a character concept that I had, and I wouldn't want anyone else to experience the same disappointment, which is why I suggested asking staff first.  For all I know, this policy changed with the family role documentation update.

[FantasyWriter]

I haven't ran into it much, but it always makes me give a funny look when staff says OOCly that you can't do something ICly.
They aren't saying that that what you are doing goes against the rules or documentation, they are saying that they don't agree with your character's IC decisions.
Calling your group a tribe IG is not something they could smack you down for IG.  It's not breaking any rule or documentation. I just don't get it.
Why does it matter on an OOC level that your PC think this piece of green stone is a emerald and calls it an emerald even though it is only a shiny piece of green marble?

The only other instance where I remember something blurring the IC/OOC line like this happening was when a player was chided because the IC reason they gave for not being around (storing) was joining an organization that was (while closed to PCs) still virtually open.  The PC could have very possibly joined this organization ICly, but because it was closed on an OOC level, they couldn't join it virtually after storage? 

[Nyr]

That said, being told your group of mutually loyalty-tested elves can't call themselves a tribe while in game is, to me, about as silly as being docked karma for calling a surmac a hat in game.

You're preaching to the choir.

I wouldn't say he's preaching to the choir.  Neither of you have been to church in a while.    This has been possible since October 2014!

[valeria]

There we go, now you don't have to ask staff if the policy has changed since the family role rules changed

[whitt]

I wouldn't say he's preaching to the choir.  Neither of you have been to church in a while.    This has been possible since October 2014!

I believe they mean a group of tribeless elves finding a crew of loyalty-tested and trusted folks that forms organically post character creation.  Making that a Tribe.  Which, is to the best of my knowledge, still not possible.

It has been possible to enter game as part of a PC tribe, but not pick up new members or etc...

Not complaining.  Just clarifying the sermon. 

[valeria]

I believe they mean a group of tribeless elves finding a crew of loyalty-tested and trusted folks that forms organically post character creation.  Making that a Tribe.  Which, is to the best of my knowledge, still not possible.

It has been possible to enter game as part of a PC tribe, but not pick up new members or etc...

And as I understand Nyr's response, you can now do that.

[Nyr]

Maybe I misunderstood what you were saying.  I'll clarify without just linking, because the link went to a post which had other links which explained this more in detail.

Can you create a tribe with four other PCs that get "apped" in with you?  Yes.  This is new.
Can you recruit new PCs into your tribe IC? Not at this time.  Why not?  We have seen past abuses of this, and we just did the above step a few months ago.  It may be some more time before we loosen restrictions further.  For now, you can do as Patuk has done and work with us on documentation for the tribe you do want to create.  Help show us that you guys want to do this in a reasonable way, show us that you can create a tribal group and stick to its documentation first, and then we will look into it further.  A word of advice: please talk to us before you send this in so that you do not spend a lot of time on a very lengthy document...we might have suggestions first based on what you are wanting to do.
Can you meet up with other people IC and decide to call them a tribe because you all have done elven tests of loyalty with each other, or because you just have hung out for a while and what not?  No.  Why not?  See above on abuses. 

We haven't been shy about explaining this stuff, it isn't hidden, you only have to ask.  Why don't we trust people to make tribes?  Because past players have abused it.  We are loosening restrictions slowly on this.  If you want to play a city-elf and feel you are stymied by not having a tribe to join, create one yourself.  Otherwise you will need to exercise patience as we get to the next steps for that (which would likely be setting up smaller city elf tribes that could be joined).

[Khorne8]

Can you meet up with other people IC and decide to call them a tribe because you all have done elven tests of loyalty with each other, or because you just have hung out for a while and what not?  No.  Why not?  See above on abuses. 

We haven't been shy about explaining this stuff, it isn't hidden, you only have to ask.  Why don't we trust people to make tribes?  Because past players have abused it.  We are loosening restrictions slowly on this.  If you want to play a city-elf and feel you are stymied by not having a tribe to join, create one yourself.  Otherwise you will need to exercise patience as we get to the next steps for that (which would likely be setting up smaller city elf tribes that could be joined).

Agreed 100%.  Not that there are so many elf PCs in game that there is any real threat of a post-character creation tribe anyway.   

[Patuk]

For now, you can do as Patuk has done and work withA word of advice: please talk to us before you send this in so that you do not spend a lot of time on a very lengthy document.

I kind of hope we'll be able to prove elves can do well if/when the app gets approved, though. I kept a lot of OOC considerations in mind while creating the tribe, one of which was recruitment; there is a way for outsiders to join, if for whatever reason they think it's beneficial.

As long as staff say no to that though, I think I'll just go for the spoilt kid stance instead. "See this shit? This awesome shit? Fuck you, it's mine! You can't have any!"

[CodeMaster]

I think having a family (or hey a tribe) is one of the understated powers of city elves.

If I app into the game with a human family, there's no racial documentation about how human family members treat each other.  It may exist in the clan documents, but human power-grabbing being what it is, I may as well expect murder, corruption, and betrayal from the PC playing my PC's sister.

If you app into the game with an elven family, there's strict documentation about how much you trust your family.  These guys will never betray you (they'd prefer to die, at least).  They won't steal from you, fly into a jealous rage and try to badname or even murder you.  They're your backup.  There's an OOC level of comfort there.

Good luck Patuk. 

[whitt]

I think having a family (or hey a tribe) is one of the understated powers of city elves.

Hah!  Human Dominance Derail #1!  There is absolutely nothing preventing human PCs from behaving exactly like Elves.  They are just not expected to.

[FantasyWriter]

Maybe I misunderstood what you were saying.  I'll clarify without just linking, because the link went to a post which had other links which explained this more in detail.

Can you create a tribe with four other PCs that get "apped" in with you?  Yes.  This is new.
Can you recruit new PCs into your tribe IC? Not at this time.  Why not?  We have seen past abuses of this, and we just did the above step a few months ago.  It may be some more time before we loosen restrictions further.  For now, you can do as Patuk has done and work with us on documentation for the tribe you do want to create.  Help show us that you guys want to do this in a reasonable way, show us that you can create a tribal group and stick to its documentation first, and then we will look into it further.  A word of advice: please talk to us before you send this in so that you do not spend a lot of time on a very lengthy document...we might have suggestions first based on what you are wanting to do.
Can you meet up with other people IC and decide to call them a tribe because you all have done elven tests of loyalty with each other, or because you just have hung out for a while and what not?  No.  Why not?  See above on abuses. 

We haven't been shy about explaining this stuff, it isn't hidden, you only have to ask.  Why don't we trust people to make tribes?  Because past players have abused it.  We are loosening restrictions slowly on this.  If you want to play a city-elf and feel you are stymied by not having a tribe to join, create one yourself.  Otherwise you will need to exercise patience as we get to the next steps for that (which would likely be setting up smaller city elf tribes that could be joined).

What was being abused? I don't think I've ever seen it said.  Were people just jumping in and trying to form tribes with people as soon as they met to get around working with staff on the front end?

[Nyr]

Endless families/tribes that never died out, living way beyond any one player, and exacting endless vengeance upon the enemies of the family/tribe by being able to just roll up yet another person to join it/be part of it.  Sometimes things are so bad we nuke them with a cobalt salted bomb.  You may recall the Klestions as an embodiment of "how bad it could be."  It wasn't really just a bit of harmless fun, there was definite abuse going on.

For this, though, I think it was a change for the better.  Old Kank, were you around for the Klestions?  A group of people made a family calling themselves Klestion, and if I understand things correctly, when one of them was playing a Klestion and died (in at least one instance) the player turned around and made another one.  It was OOC abuse and lead to some unrealistic things happening in game.  The new policy is to ensure that people aren't trying to sneak things in, unrealistic things.  It is to ensure that the staff are aware of what's going on.  It's to ensure that things aren't completely pre-arranged by a group of people to give themselves an advantage they shouldn't have in game because of their OOC planning.

I applaud this change from the bottom of my heart.  I was playing in Tuluk when the Klestion situation came about, and it was stupid.

As one of the folk who lived through The Klestion Years (yeah, you.  For those who don't know, LARGE family from about 2002 or something), I am strongly against prefab families.  Fuck that.  We have to struggle and fight and worry about if X is going to backstab us, so should everyone else.

However, as one of the folk who helped eliminate The Klestion Problem (yeah, you, I took two of you out and had fun cutting up both bodies, one of you while still alive), I can't encourage them enough, just because I love killing them so damn much.  So much, in fact, that Spawnloser and I designed a dish called The Klestion.

We've definitely loosened things up since then, but this is largely where the restrictions came from: players abusing things to the extent that we had to stop it and put controls on it.

[Patuk]

I don't want to argue against that being shitty behavior, but what stops a person from doing so with just about any other clan/concept?

[Cind]

I don't want to argue against that being shitty behavior, but what stops a person from doing so with just about any other clan/concept?

Seniors of the houses/clans (like high-ranking house family members, upper-class nobles, red robe templars, and staff) stomping a hole in little guys who cause trouble, and also said little guys (all of us) not being able to attain seniority anywhere of any kind.

[BadSkeelz]

I think Patuk meant from an OOC angle: There's nothing to stop a player from endlessly joining the same coded Clan and following an OOC-derived agenda. Like a person who joins the militia over and over, because they know if they can stick around for juuuust enough time they'll get the crim-code ability they need to gank near anyone in the City.

[Armaddict]

Can you meet up with other people IC and decide to call them a tribe because you all have done elven tests of loyalty with each other, or because you just have hung out for a while and what not?  No.  Why not?  See above on abuses. 

Eh.  They won't be a coded tribe, but this is the exact behavior that the elven mentality fosters.  So you can say it's not allowed, but that's how it will be played nevertheless.  It just takes long periods of time for them to come to that pattern of behavior.  In a sense, it's no different than a group of friends in any other part of the game, but this one is more closely bonded together.

Just saying...that context appears to be out of place.  Elves are tribal.  Tribeless elves, with tested and true people, will treat their highest regarded people as their tribe due to lack of a higher step in their social hierarchy.