Mythology/Religion

[aeglaeca]

Certain entities are sometimes mentioned ICly (Whira and that other guy in regard to sandstorms, Drov as opposed to hell, etc.) but there isn't much of an explanation on the website as to who those guys are, or, at least not that I'm seeing. Are they essentially demigods? Are there known origin stories for them?

Is there any impact on day-to-day life as far as religious affiliation goes? Is there a 'devout' subset of the population per population type (Nak, Tuluk, delves, etc.) that goes through this and that ritual, observes holidays or anything? Do parents tell their kids stories about how Drov will come to eat you if you're bad, or whatever?

[MeTekillot]

Those are the names of the Elements. Type 'help magick element' in game.

[bcw81]

http://www.armageddonmud.org/help/view/magick%20element

That might be what you're looking for.

The use IC is more than not just slang that players created over the years.

[aeglaeca]

Oh, gotcha. Thanks

[BadSkeelz]

The "Nomad Roleplay" doc ask that you describe the Spirituality of your tribe, including gods.

http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Nomad%20Roleplay

Which to me implies that there may be tribes out there that have spiritual entities other than the embodiments of the Elements.

[James de Monet]

In terms of the city-states, you are far more likely to see rituals and beliefs tied to the sorcerer-kings than to the elements.  In Nak, they do have "temples" devoted to the elements, but they are more like schools than centers of worship.  In all likelihood, any sign of outward worship of the elements that came at the preclusion of devotion to the respective kings would probably be punishable as heresy.

[HavokBlue]

The help files do refer to the magick moods like Echri, Inrof, Hurz and the like as psychic constructs or demispirits.

I think they also refer to  the spheres as elemental deities or djinn.

[Lizzie]

I don't know if it's IC lore, because I don't know if any books survived past the innumerable crashes since they might have been written - but there is/was lore about certain things that still exist in the game, whose history involves dieties.

I wish I could be sincere in saying find out iC but I honestly don't know if the IC information still exists IC. The docs were password-protected on the old website for clan members only, so I imagine those docs are long gone unless some staffer preserved them for prosperity.

[Erythil]

The state religion of the cities is the divinity cult of their rulers.  Allanak's white order of templar basically function as priests and you can see some ceremonies taking place in the city via npc scripts.

Tribes can have pretty much any gods you want, and the predefined clans have predefined beliefs.

The elements are often personified in a sort of folk belief, but this isn't really strongly defined.  Individual elemental spirits may be revered and supplicated and some of them might even answer as these spirits are real entities.

The impression I get is that traditional religions once existed in forms more recognizable to us in the real world, but have since been heavily suppressed to the point of extinction.

[Jihelu]

Remember kids.
Mentioning Whira/Drov/etc as sentient gods is kind of weird and templars/other people will think you are probably some dirt heretic unless being metaphorical.
I guess if you are a tribal or some shit it's k though.

[Barzalene]

Remember kids.
Mentioning Whira/Drov/etc as sentient gods is kind of weird and templars/other people will think you are probably some dirt heretic unless being metaphorical.
I guess if you are a tribal or some shit it's k though.

I'm not certain this is right.

[Jihelu]

Remember kids.
Mentioning Whira/Drov/etc as sentient gods is kind of weird and templars/other people will think you are probably some dirt heretic unless being metaphorical.
I guess if you are a tribal or some shit it's k though.

I'm not certain this is right.

It probably isn't but thats always what I would assume.

[Riev]

Except that Whira truly IS a bitch. I think Whira is kind of the only construct to have a male/female determination or any sort of personalization. Even a "Ruk take you" is still more of a "I hope the ground swallows you up". But Whira's Luck determines her to be a fickle mistress (perhaps because we often think of "lady luck"?)

[James de Monet]

I dunno. I think you can get away with fairly frequent mention of Whira or Krath or Drov.

The others you don't hear very much outside of gicker circles.

Again, though, there's a difference between saying "baby needs a new pair of shoes" and setting a giant pile of aces on fire while playing Russian roulette as an offering to Lady Luck. It's a question of intent and intensity.

[Jihelu]

I've always liked the idea of the phrase "Whira wills it" as the sort of "WELL SHIT I DON'T KNOW MAYBE THE WIND LIKES IT/LUCK" Sort of thing.
Though it doesn't work for most things, which is when I think the weird 'minor heresy hippy' thing starts showing up.

And if it goes too far you have the druid problem I suppose.

[HavokBlue]

You will probably not get Templar dunked for using personifications of Whira/Ruk/Drov/Krath/Viv in offhand conversation.

If you started trying to worship or glorify them, or went around talking about how you survived that scrab attack because Grol the Protector was watching out for you, expect trouble.

[Marauder Moe]

"Heresy" isn't really a thing in Zalanthas.  That's a Judeo-Christian concept, born out of novel the tenet that there is only one God and no others actually even exist.

Tek's templars don't preach that Muk Utep doesn't exists, or that he's not powerful; these things are undeniable.  Just that he's the enemy.  Likewise, the elemental forces are real, and they do[i/] influence the world on both a natural/superstitious level and overtly supernatural (magick) levels.  It's not heresy to invoke the name of an element.  (In Tuluk it's a gray area whether or not the elements are "enemies", but not heresy to admit they exist.)

[Beethoven]

Worshipers of the god-kings are not monotheists but monolatrists. I think the concept of heresy can still exist within a monolatrous system. I don't see a problem with borrowing words or concepts from Judeo-Christian history when it is appropriate, especially from the more oppressive side of things, since that's the feel we're trying to hammer in.

[Marauder Moe]

That's a good word.

So yeah, I guess you could have a heresy, but it would be like... if someone started preaching that Tek is a halfbreed or a defiler.  That would be heresy.

But templars/believers of the other god-king are not heretics.  Elementalists are not (necessarily) heretics.  People praising Whira for gambling wins are not heretics.

[Beethoven]

I think that if it is contrary to "correct doctrine" (aka "orthodoxy") then it would be considered a heresy, so yeah, those things would be heretical, but smaller things might also be declared heresies, too. (Like saying something weird like there's a secret teaching that Tektolnes is actually Quintus' father, etc.) The question would be whether or not the Templarate would bother making official declarations about the smaller stuff. Probably only if it got to be widespread for some reason.

[Beethoven]

And I agree with you; believers in the opposing God-King are not heretics. They are followers of a completely different religion.

[BadSkeelz]

The proper term is "Heathens"

[valeria]

If you're a southerner using heretic in the sense of one who dissents from established belief or doctrine/nonconformist, where your established belief in your locale is that Tek is the most powerful god king, not that poser Muk Utep, I think you're probably fine.

[Marauder Moe]

Heathens may be technically correct by some definitions, but the historic Christian usage had strong overtones of blatant superiority.

To be honest as players, and probably deep down honest as characters, Tektolnes and Muk Utep are on fairly even footing.  (I'm also not really a fan of "barbarians" as a term applying to opposite city-states either.)


Also, we really have a lot of great, flavorful, Arm-specific language with varying shades of derogatederogation (yay I learned a second new word today!) to describe the city-states and their denizens.  Let's favor those instead.

[Beethoven]

Wait, we're not allowed to use condescending language to attempt to present ourselves as superior to the enemy now? Perish the thought, HEATHEN!

[Tetra]

I see the elementals not so much as Gods, but building blocks of the world.  Think Lego. 

An example might be the Fates from Greek Mythology; rather than being just divine, they are incarnations of destiny.  The whole saga of the Gods plays out how they dictate it to, sort of like the 'stage'.  That is to say, elementals are not Gods or not not Gods.  They're pure embodiments of archetypal nature.

[valeria]

I moved some accidentally mis-posted posts into the appropriate thread, which was the I Went On A Date thread.  You may resume your mythology/religion discussion. 

[Jihelu]

I see the elementals not so much as Gods, but building blocks of the world.  Think Lego. 

An example might be the Fates from Greek Mythology; rather than being just divine, they are incarnations of destiny.  The whole saga of the Gods plays out how they dictate it to, sort of like the 'stage'.  That is to say, elementals are not Gods or not not Gods.  They're pure embodiments of archetypal nature.

I like that idea. Maybe someone could go nuts and say they are the god of their element later on, eh?

[Tetra]

I see the elementals not so much as Gods, but building blocks of the world.  Think Lego. 

An example might be the Fates from Greek Mythology; rather than being just divine, they are incarnations of destiny.  The whole saga of the Gods plays out how they dictate it to, sort of like the 'stage'.  That is to say, elementals are not Gods or not not Gods.  They're pure embodiments of archetypal nature.

I like that idea. Maybe someone could go nuts and say they are the god of their element later on, eh?

What do you think Sorcerer Kings do.. 

[aeglaeca]

I am actually interested in the idea of heresy, new religions, proclaiming yourself a gicker god, etc., but I guess with Tuluk closing half the potential religious implications are almost entirely in the hands of vNPCs.

It doesn't really seem like religion and any corresponding rituals are treated as an essential part of life in Zalanthas, which is fine, but since it didn't seem to be, I wondered if there was more of a consideration that elementals are like demigods or folk heroes-- powerful entities that exist and have some incredible power to them that commoners might occasionally ask for help from or curse at and stuff.

Outside of 'damn it, Whira's pissed again' with regard to sandstorms, there seems to be little else mentioned about them. The fact that gickers have so much to do with them and that these entities are still taken into daily speech is a little confusing to me, since it almost seems like elemental names should be more along the lines of He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named considering their associations.

In Nak, it doesn't appear there's any consequences to not going to morning devotions, and in Tuluk it never appeared there was any such thing as morning devotions. Luir's and Storm seem quite, well, agnostic is probably not the right word but something like agnostic. No one seems particularly interested in educating the commoners, so to speak, so outside of 'Light/Shade' it seems like there isn't too much impact of the actual religion/teachings/whatever of either city, nor is there much of anything by way of a priesthood. Which I guess is what everyone else said here. That being the case, are the templarate in practice ruling because of martial law with the Highlord/Sun King as figureheads? Are Nakki and Tuluki people actually loyal to or afraid of their respective sorcerer-kings, or just the templars who represent them?

[HavokBlue]

I am actually interested in the idea of heresy, new religions, proclaiming yourself a gicker god, etc., but I guess with Tuluk closing half the potential religious implications are almost entirely in the hands of vNPCs.

It doesn't really seem like religion and any corresponding rituals are treated as an essential part of life in Zalanthas, which is fine, but since it didn't seem to be, I wondered if there was more of a consideration that elementals are like demigods or folk heroes-- powerful entities that exist and have some incredible power to them that commoners might occasionally ask for help from or curse at and stuff.

These things aren't treated as an essential part of life in the cities because the cult of fear and/or adoration the sorceror kings have developed don't really function like spiritual religions and the system has no need to reinforce belief by preaching faith and adherence to a set of virtues because even the most avowed Tek-hater can't deny Tek's existence.

You start seeing far more variety, ritual, and spiritual presence when you look at the religious beliefs of Zalanthan tribes. An Akei Ta Var elf or maybe a Sun Runner or Arabeti might be fun for you if that's something you want to experience.

[aeglaeca]

because even the most avowed Tek-hater can't deny Tek's existence.

They can't deny he once existed, sure, but when was the last time he came out or did anything? (Uh... if this is a find out IC question, that's fine, it's almost rhetorical anyway.) Same in reverse. Couldn't people suggest these guys are dead/have lost their power/are in some sort of hibernation and attempt to overthrow their own or each others' governments?

You start seeing far more variety, ritual, and spiritual presence when you look at the religious beliefs of Zalanthan tribes. An Akei Ta Var elf or maybe a Sun Runner or Arabeti might be fun for you if that's something you want to experience.

Good to know! I'm super interested in the Akei perhaps one of them will be next when my current PC kicks the bucket.

[HavokBlue]

because even the most avowed Tek-hater can't deny Tek's existence.

They can't deny he once existed, sure, but when was the last time he came out or did anything? (Uh... if this is a find out IC question, that's fine, it's almost rhetorical anyway.) Same in reverse. Couldn't people suggest these guys are dead/have lost their power/are in some sort of hibernation and attempt to overthrow their own or each others' governments?

1627 (Year 10 Age 22)
A small army of Allanaki soldiers establish camp at Ten'Sarak. In reaction to the potential threat of an Allanaki move, the Tuluki fortress known as Ayun Iskandir sees increasingly high activity. Tensions and numbers rise on both sides as the two armies set out for Tyn Dashra. After scattered fighting on the borders and steppes, both forces meet to parlay, but neither side surrenders.

The two armies clash in a bloody battle. Suddenly, a great and powerful force was activated from somewhere in Tuluk, matched by a similar force in the Muark lands. Great beams of light spring into the air from each location. As the lights began to surge towards each other, the shadow of a dragon was sighted in the sky, swooping over Allanak, Luir's, towards Tuluk, and around the rest of the Known World before disappearing. After the beams of light connected, the land around Tyn Dashra was torn apart, great earthquakes rumbling outwards.

You could certainly make claims about the opposing king. There's a tattoo you can get in Allanak, I believe, that depicts a pyramid with a withered old corpse inside, probably a slam at Muk Utep.

[Jihelu]

Well. I don't consider the sorcerer kings god of an element per say, but an idea.
Tek, sorcerery in general, being a dragon, etc.
Muk Utep, sun, sun king, something about light, etc.

I just want someone to get really strong as a Ruk/Krathi/etc and just walk out one day, get a group of about 20 pcs or something, and proclaim "Welp, I'm god of this here lands, lets start a kingdom"
Of course not just straight that and even the kingdom part is a bit dumb, but saying "I am the paragon of earth/etc" is a good fun thing to do in most fantasy things (Now how fast someone decides you are a threat and murders you is proportionally equal to how many Met's you have slain with your god powers)

[Tetra]

The reason such spiritual RP doesn't happen very frequently in the cities is as Havok mentioned.  The Sorcerer-Kings rule through fear and indoctrination. 

Do you think someone raised their entire life being terrified of a God-like being would risk being caught or killed for worshipping some hedge spirits?  Some people(powerful people) will want to kill you just for claiming that you do so at all.  Forget god powers, even if you are the weakest of the weakest links and you show disloyalty, it could mean getting mantis head.

[valeria]

Do you think someone raised their entire life being terrified of a God-like being would risk being caught or killed for worshipping some hedge spirits?  Some people(powerful people) will want to kill you just for claiming that you do so at all.  Forget god powers, even if you are the weakest of the weakest links and you show disloyalty, it could mean getting mantis head.

Yes.  Because this has happened historically all the time.  There are always dissenting groups within larger groups, even in religious structures where dissent means death. 

[Tetra]

Do you think someone raised their entire life being terrified of a God-like being would risk being caught or killed for worshipping some hedge spirits?  Some people(powerful people) will want to kill you just for claiming that you do so at all.  Forget god powers, even if you are the weakest of the weakest links and you show disloyalty, it could mean getting mantis head.

Yes.  Because this has happened historically all the time.  There are always dissenting groups within larger groups, even in religious structures where dissent means death.  

Okay, let me rephrase that.  Do you think they would do it openly or publicly in a tyrannical city-state?  Def. not.

[slatefox]

Sorry for super-long post!

I personally would be delighted to see more blatant IC information about 'religion', particularly as it is practiced by the majority of commoners.

A long, long time ago, when I had played regularly, I got the sincere impression that the staff would not even tolerate player-made faiths, even those that were very in line with the game docs and world.  The most religious roleplay I had ever seen that did not immediately get you popped OOCly with a bad note or an 'ooc' scolding was when a few players would go outside the gates of Allanak at dawn and do a kneel-and-pray emote for Tek.

I have never been able to buy into the simple statements that 'life is too hard for people to believe in an afterlife' and 'everyone is an atheist', and to be perfectly honest, the OOC tenacity with which these statements were defended made me less interested in playing, because it made the game feel .... plastic.  Unreal.  It broke the suspension of disbelief because, logically, when you have several thousand uneducated, illiterate people living in squalor, with no concept of mental health, and surround them with events like third moons popping up out of nowhere, magic volcanoes, and invisible voices telling them what to do, you're going to get all sorts of ideas about gods, elements, elemental planes, death and the afterlife, etc.  The continuous cultural struggles just adds fuel to the fire (humans v. city elves, Tuluk v Allanak, delf v delf, gith and halflings and mantises and... you get the point).

ICly, it makes *perfect* sense for the established regime to squash out these heretics on sight (that, or try to use them to their advantage).  I get that.  What I don't get is that the established regime seems to not be a very important part of a common's life.  Tek might as well be as mystical as Suddam Hussein.

[HavokBlue]

That analogy would be accurate if Saddam Hussein was a 1000+ year old wizard who can turn into a dragon, shit fireballs, and bury heretics in a wave of sand.

[TheWanderer]

he said, with no proof that he wasn't

[Jihelu]

Do you think someone raised their entire life being terrified of a God-like being would risk being caught or killed for worshipping some hedge spirits?  Some people(powerful people) will want to kill you just for claiming that you do so at all.  Forget god powers, even if you are the weakest of the weakest links and you show disloyalty, it could mean getting mantis head.

Yes.  Because this has happened historically all the time.  There are always dissenting groups within larger groups, even in religious structures where dissent means death.  

Okay, let me rephrase that.  Do you think they would do it openly or publicly in a tyrannical city-state?  Def. not.

Well...
Maybe?
If you had enough people you could. Redstorm did it.
But well, not really spiritual from what I know.
Redstorm is essentially America, Nak is Britain.

[Asanadas]

Allanak is the UK. Red Storm is Sealand.

[Erythil]

Sorry for super-long post!

I personally would be delighted to see more blatant IC information about 'religion', particularly as it is practiced by the majority of commoners.

A long, long time ago, when I had played regularly, I got the sincere impression that the staff would not even tolerate player-made faiths, even those that were very in line with the game docs and world.  The most religious roleplay I had ever seen that did not immediately get you popped OOCly with a bad note or an 'ooc' scolding was when a few players would go outside the gates of Allanak at dawn and do a kneel-and-pray emote for Tek.

I have never been able to buy into the simple statements that 'life is too hard for people to believe in an afterlife' and 'everyone is an atheist', and to be perfectly honest, the OOC tenacity with which these statements were defended made me less interested in playing, because it made the game feel .... plastic.  Unreal.  It broke the suspension of disbelief because, logically, when you have several thousand uneducated, illiterate people living in squalor, with no concept of mental health, and surround them with events like third moons popping up out of nowhere, magic volcanoes, and invisible voices telling them what to do, you're going to get all sorts of ideas about gods, elements, elemental planes, death and the afterlife, etc.  The continuous cultural struggles just adds fuel to the fire (humans v. city elves, Tuluk v Allanak, delf v delf, gith and halflings and mantises and... you get the point).

ICly, it makes *perfect* sense for the established regime to squash out these heretics on sight (that, or try to use them to their advantage).  I get that.  What I don't get is that the established regime seems to not be a very important part of a common's life.  Tek might as well be as mystical as Suddam Hussein.

Religion being frowned upon on Arm probably has a lot to do with the fact that in the original Dark Sun setting that Arm is based off of, the gods are literally dead.  The situation however seems to be somewhat more nuanced than that on our game.

Most PC templar seem to be of the corrupt and cynical variety, which definitely means that there's relatively little representation of people who actually believe in the state cult or in religion generally.  Personally I'd let players try on the role of a white-order templar every now and then, to add that flavor.

[Jihelu]

Once again.
If we had more mad god/geniuses/scientists running around it would be more fun.