UPOTW: Social Classes

[ShaLeah]

Wow.
We've just been having a discussion on IRC about the social classes on Zalanthas.  We all know that status on Zalanthas is separated in primarily two departments, Noble birth and Common birth.

I contend that the upper-commoner class of Zalanthas (those born into the wealth and security of Merchant Houses), which we have all agreed are of Common birth, should have it's own social class desciption. These are people who are extremely wealthy, they hold political power, some (all?) are literate, they are guarded and protected by their family and in some cases, hold more political power than some nobles because of their ability to... butter the hands that control the wagon reins.

I am not saying that these people are not of common birth, what I am contending is that they have been so far above mere common birth for so long that they deserve their own social class.
For instance we can call them:
Loaded, moneyed, opulent, prosperous, rich, upper class, upscale, well-off, well-to-do, affluent, socialites, gentry, polished, high-class...


Some people disagree and I was wondering what the general opinion was, so let the discussion begin.


ShaLeah
-who thinks they have crawled, bribed, killed, controlled, grovelled and artfully clawed their way to the top and should be given their due respect.

* What is with "UPOTW"?    Isn't that short for 'unintentional pun..'?

* Useless Poll of the Week

[Barzalene]

I voted yes, but with a caveat. They are still commoners, but they're something more as well, though without a doubt still less than noble.

[Lazloth]

* What is with "UPOTW"?    Isn't that short for 'unintentional pun..'?

[House Rising Sun]

Nobody (namely me) was disagreeing. The family members from merchant houses -should- be called something else. Any one of the things you described. They -should- be considered insanely wealthy and influential, and treated as the upper-class folks that they are. Here on earth, a lot of us are raised in societies of equality, where the upper class is just richer. On Zalanthas, the upper class is -better- as well, so they should be treated as such.

But the thing is, they already -are-, in my eyes. They already have the official title of Merchant House, they have, as a business, more rights than the average commoner, they have enough money and influence to bend the economy to their will. What more do you want? Little club stickers for their wagon bumpers that say "I'm better than you, that's why you can't read this - no matter how close you are"?

Perhaps yet another merchant and his or her family should be granted a noble title. I imagine, were the two city-states not in a state of conflict with each other, they probably would be. After all, the only thing noble houses do is provide a valuable commercial service. Who cares if the services the Merchant houses provide are completely retail? They're still supplying the city. But I imagine, since nobility would require them to stay put in just one city, they'd reject such an offer. So what's the problem? They probably don't want to be nobles, yet they have just about as much economic and political power, and people know it.

[krelin]

It seems like it would be a mistake to consider them a different -social- class.  They're most certainly in a different -economic- class, and that does affect social status, but not enough to politically or socially be considered anything but commoners.  They do not have a noble's sense of "divine right", selection by a deity-like sorceror/warrior-king, for their position.

[mansa]

*UPOTW

Useless
Poll
Of
The
Week

[CindyLou]

And then some horny merchant in need of a guaranteed Nekrete fuck decides to marry some common trash slut, thus raising her to a status that requires the commoners to treat her with respect? Fuggedaboudit. Remember, Merchant houses do not have the same stringent social rules regarding marriages that nobles do. They can marry (yes, marry, officially) lower class commoners, and have in recent and past history.

Their spouse is still a trashy street-slut commoner, but they have the protection to back them up, and can now wear silky street-slut clothes instead of linen or sandcloth.

No, I'd have to say no. I would not want to see Merchant houses be considered "not" commoners. I like that they're commoners, and they've always been commoners from what I've read in the docs, and I see no need to change it.

Edited to add: Some commoner spouses who marry into Merchant houses rise through the ranks of their house by earning respect of their betters, and becoming those very betters that they have emulated. I am obviously not referring to them.

[ShaLeah]

And then some horny merchant in need of a guaranteed Nekrete fuck decides to marry some common trash slut, thus raising her to a status that requires the commoners to treat her with respect? Fuggedaboudit. Remember, Merchant houses do not have the same stringent social rules regarding marriages that nobles do. They can marry (yes, marry, officially) lower class commoners, and have in recent and past history.

I agree, CindyLou.  Like I said in the what you know post turned marriage fiasco, Merchant House families should be very careful in whom they allow their family members to marry.  Some commoners are trained right and if their (the merchant house kid) son/daughter would happen (which is really not realistic in my humble opinion) to fall in love with that rinthy rat and pitch a hissy fit into having to marry this rat? I think the House would either kill the rat, bribe the rat or make damn sure that rat was properly trained.

I don't know if I agree with the "stringent social rules" thing though.


ShaLeah
-who somehow broke the Poll when she was editing it to add Lazloth's quote and ended up with two extra questions which she can not get rid of now.

[Barzalene]

And then some horny merchant in need of a guaranteed Nekrete fuck decides to marry some common trash slut, thus raising her to a status that requires the commoners to treat her with respect? Fuggedaboudit. Remember, Merchant houses do not have the same stringent social rules regarding marriages that nobles do. They can marry (yes, marry, officially) lower class commoners, and have in recent and past history.

.

What do fucking and marriage have to do with one another at all?


I'm not picking on CindyLou, I just often disagree with her.

[ShaLeah]

What do fucking and marriage have to do with one another at all?

Not a damn thing.  
Let's not deviate from the topic!
Social classes people! Should we have the merchants be the ginka-cream of the pie with the upper crust being the nobles or shall we let them remain at the bottom of the pan with the commoners???


ShaLeah
-who wonders if we can ever stay on track.

[Marie]

My general impression is that a merchant house is to the regular run of commoners much as Borsail is to Jal among the noble houses.

I'd imagine that a merchant house might become noble, but that it'd take an "act of Tektolnes" for it to happen. I might be wrong. Hmm ... and not to say the m-word, but I'm also guessing that any, ah, intermingling with the lower commoners would interfere with such ambitions.

For Allanak, we do have a rank table that I find pretty handy.

The Tuluki caste tattoo doc says:

The upper echelons of the commoner caste, these individuals are the powerhouses that dictate the actions of their respective Merchant Houses. Of considerable political and monetary influence, they have in their own way helped to shape the face of Tuluki culture.

--Marie

[CindyLou]

Merchant family members already are the ginka cream of the pie. It is a known and accepted fact of life in Zalanthas. They already are supposed to be treated better (by the lesser commoners) than the lesser commoners, and they are already supposed to be treated with more politeness and civility (by the nobility and templarate) than the nobility and templarate would normally treat a non-merchant-family-member commoner. If they aren't being treated as such, then it's the fault of the player, or possibly intentionally by the player, and not for any lack of "official" separation. The separation already exists. They are "The Merchants."

[Sanvean]

I think this is already covered here:

http://www.armageddon.org/general/ranktable.html

Family members generally start as junior merchants and work their way up. They're much more likely to hit senior merchant, and I doubt that the house head is ever not a family member by blood.

[Gorobei]

For anyone who was too lazy to click on Marie's link to the rank table, it's obvious that merchant house members are above normal commoners.  House heads are on the same level as regular family members of Rennik, Jal and Sath, and even senior merchants are equal to bastard nobles.

[Kalden]

Heh, heh. Junior merchant is the same social rank as a House guard of the nobility. That's surprising to me, especially considering how blood relative merchants of the House are often viewed. I'd say they're generally given more status. Or, they expect more status than they're actually due, so people reflexively give it to them.

[Anonymous]

I like that rankings page a lot.  But to me its easily summed up in terms like that six degrees of Kevin Bacon game.

Who has the fewest hops and the easiest route to the ear of a senator or a black robe?  They win.

[crymerci]

I don't think that the Merchant Houses would want to be officially higher than regular commoners.  They already have a great deal of status--senate representatives, wealth and power galore, etc. I don't think they would want to insult the nobility by assuming more status than they already have. Also, I don't think they'd want to take on some of the restrictions that come along with that kind of prestige.

[Bestatte]

Heh, heh. Junior merchant is the same social rank as a House guard of the nobility. That's surprising to me, especially considering how blood relative merchants of the House are often viewed. I'd say they're generally given more status. Or, they expect more status than they're actually due, so people reflexively give it to them.

In some clans, a Junior Merchant can be a hireling rather than a PC who  "shows up" as a merchant with the House's last name, per the player's application to staff.  Different merchant houses deal with things in different ways.  It seems appropriate to me that a Junior Merchant would have a similar rank to that of a noble's House Guard. Both command a certain amount of respect, but neither are worth a bow or curtsy, not even by a rinth rat.

Edited to add: I hadn't even thought about the things Crymerci brought up, but now that she did bring it up, I have to agree with her reasoning.

[My 2 sids]

Ok, it took me a bit but I finally found what I was looking for.  

I think the confusion and discussion is comming from the idea that the game world is a rank society and NOT a class society  That is a class society is a socieity containing social groups that have unequal access to economic resources, power, and prestige.  But, a
rank society is A society that does not have any unequal access to
econonomic resources or power, but with social groups that have unequal access to status positions and prestige.  See the difference?  Only NOBLES can have access to that type of posistion and prestige!  ALL (including merchants) don't have assess so they are ALL common.  Another point I want to make is that rank societies NEVER run on a capitalist economy.  

The world dosen't revolve around money because money can't buy status.  This is the main reason merchants in game are just like everyone else and can never truly have their own ranking.  To do so would require a totally new mapping of rank and economy, not just social class.  It would take a total revolution and the nobility loosing their control to do so.

[A pauper merchant]

I just wanted to clear something up -

Just because players think that merchant blood merchants are important doesn't make it so.  I've seen so many House blood merchants (especially junior agents) acting as if they are as good as or better than a noble that it makes me laugh.

In comparison to nobility - merchant houses are nothing.  Yes, a merchant may have a lot of coin but that does not equate status.  Wealth and status are very different beasts.

As for political power - no, the merchant houses do not have the same amount (or anywhere near as much) as the Noble Houses.  

I find it odd that in the 'public' records of the Senate (http://www.armageddon.org/general/senate.html) there are actually motions put forth by merchant Houses.  I suppose I misunderstood what 'senate representative' is as opposed to 'senator' means.  

Could someone clarify this?  Is a Senate Representative able to put forward a motion but they are unable to actually vote?

One thing I find amusing about the senate records - all the requests put forth by Merchant Houses failed.

[Anonymous]

http://www.armageddon.org/general/senate.html

Holy cow, I didn't even know that page existed.

[CindyLou]

Merchant houses do not have the *social* status that Noble houses do, nor the "legal" status Noble houses do, but politically, they are extremely powerful and not to be underestimated.

Where do the Guard units of all the noble houses get their armor and weapons? Salarr, for the most part, Kurac to a certain extent. Where do the nobles get their fine clothes and furniture from? Kadius, and again, Kurac, to a certain extent. When the South wants to invade the north (or vice versa) - where do they need to pass through on the way? Luir's Outpost, which is Kurac property.  When a southern noble wants something that only the northern branch of a merchant house has, the trade route passes through Luir's Outpost, which is Kurac-owned and operated. They could go other ways, but none of them are considered safe enough for wagons. Luir's is the "safe passage" from north to south for merchants and wagons.

And where do all these noble houses keep their sids? In the Nenyuk Bank. Piss off a Nenyuk, and risk a hefty "interest fee" and no money to pay your employees, or buy your silks, or weapons, or armor.

There are a plethora of other reasons why the merchant houses are extremely powerful, but they're all IC.

So yeah - socially and legally they don't have the standing of the pureblooded nobles. But politically, they're a whole nuther animal.

[Anonymous]

Piss off a Nenyuk, and risk a hefty "interest fee" and no money to pay your employees, or buy your silks, or weapons, or armor.

Never in a million years.  The senate and Templarate would come down like you wouldn't believe on a commoner organization that censured a noble.

Merchant houses have contacts and power and money, but noble houses have more of both.  I haven't played a noble in a good year or two now, but I still see the same thing.  Merchants acting as though they are on equal footing with nobles with the only exception being the use of a formal title.

If a noble wants a merchant executed the merchant better have enough contacts/sway to get somone higher up the chain in the senate or nobility to step in or they are done for.  And that doesn't work both ways.

[DrunkenSalarr]

Piss off a Nenyuk, and risk a hefty "interest fee" and no money to pay your employees, or buy your silks, or weapons, or armor.

Never in a million years.  The senate and Templarate would come down like you wouldn't believe on a commoner organization that censured a noble.

The problem with that is, whoever decides to come down on Nenyuk risks just as much.  If you think about it, Nenyuk is probably the richest of the Houses, both Noble and Merchant.

One thing I find amusing about the senate records - all the requests put forth by Merchant Houses failed

I respond with this:

Palomides Nenyuk offered to fund a small bounty for tarantula nests. Passed.

Also, Nenyuk is apparently such a powerful Merchant house that they either get members selected, or buy their way into the Allanaki Templarate.

...The Allanaki Red Robes Sathis Valika and Aquila Nenyuk are slain in a duel with Isar, who is also mortally wounded during the confrontation...

So yes, while Nenyuk may be "just a bunch of commoners" they are a bunch of commoners to tread carefully around.  Most likely the only reason they are not a Noble House is because they would lose business from which ever city they weren't a Noble House for.  Not being a noble house seems to be a purely business thing to me.

[Rindan]

The where is as important as 'who'.  In Luir's outpost, a noble has exactly as much power as Kurac gives them.  If a Tor noble points to a Kuraci sergeant and demands someone kill that sergeant, unless there is a good reason Kurac is going to tell him to go to hell (though probably in a polite way).  In Allanak or Tuluk the local nobility are certainly on the top of the food chain, however around the known world the merchant houses are considerable power.  A noble houses power is very much focused on their city state.  In that city state is very powerful.  Leave that city state and they have as much say as any commoner.  A merchant house on the other hand has power wherever they go.  The fact that they have power all over the world collectively leads to a very powerful sum of force.

If one day the South was to commit a terrible offense to house Salarr, Salarr could make the Allanak hurt very badly.  Going to war with a merchant house is a very bad idea, and that is why it simply doesn't happen.  If one day Salarr stops supplying Allanak with weapons and dumps a load of weapons in front of the Gith and arm the North to the teeth, Allanak is going to be hurting.  I won't go IC into it, but there was an event where Salarr ended up arming Gith by accident (or so the story goes) and it had a VERY dramatic effect upon the south.  The merchant houses are a very important in the balance of power between Allanak in Tuluk.  They are one of the few organizations that have sway in all places in the world.  Piss of Kurac and Kurac lets the opposing city state take up residence in Luirs and have a launching pad into enemy territory.  Look at the history of Luir's and it makes it clear that Luir's is not a place you want an opposing army.  The merchant houses are by no means weak, and in many ways are stronger then any one noble house because they can play the two city states off of each other.  They have the power of a merchant house plus whatever help and allies they can bring to bear from the rest of the world.  These are not houses to be screwed with.  They don't operate out of the good graces of the city states.  They operate in these places and hold the monopoly because not letting them do so is going to result in them inflicting some terrible hurt.

So, by law does a merchant house have much power in a city state?  No.  Does a merchant house wild a terrible amount of political power?  Absolutely.  Merchant houses all have representatives in all the governments.  They are the economy and the weapons of war.  They keep everything running smoothly.  A very high ranking merchant has a certain level of protection if he can speak for his house AND does not misrepresent his house and overstep his bounds.  A junior merchant is better to keep his mouth shut as a noble can deal with him very easily.  Taking out a regional agent on the other hand though is going to mean paying a high political price.  It happens, but there is a price tag attached and it is no small event.

So, is a junior merchant worth anything?  Nah.  Does a noble house, no matter how powerful they think they are want to piss off a merchant house by killing off its members without cause?  Absolutely not.  The quickest way I think a noble could find to suddenly be relegated to watching over shit sweepers would be to convince a merchant house to come down on a particular noble house.  The quickest way to get executed, noble or otherwise, would be to convince a merchant house to inflict harm upon a city state.  The two are in a very tight relationship.  They can both hurt each other badly, and inflicting harm on the other means harming ones self.  However, when it comes down to it though, I think city states are more vulnerable to being hurt by a merchant house then the other way around as long as there are two city states.