CGP/ext subguilds/skill bump discussion

[whitt]

When you have sent in a request for an Ext. Subguild and have been approved, does it matter what subguild you pick when you actually create the character?

It doesn't matter which one you choose as long as you do this:

You will need to include the request # in your PC's background and detail "approved for extended subguild X" where X is the subguild you were approved for. 

Would the same apply if you spec app'd for a higher karma race or guild, were approved, and now wanted to add skill bumps and/or something else that required CGPs, like a Karma-required guild or race?  Or would it just be easier to burn a new spec app?

eg Player is at 0 Karma, app'd a Delf, got approved, and would now be eligible (at 0+3 CGP) to play a Delf Rukkian?  Which would not have been a viable option before.

[Thunkkin]

Am I correct that since all special applications now count as CGP applications, there's no reason NOT to put any leftover CGP from my race/guild choice into skill bumps?

[Rathustra]

Am I correct that since all special applications now count as CGP applications, there's no reason NOT to put any leftover CGP from my race/guild choice into skill bumps?

Yeah - unspent CGP in special applications are not carried forward so there's no reason not to (outside of wanting to for difficulty's sake).

[John]

Just wanting to confirm: There is no difference between GCP and special apps, right?

The whole system seems to have undergone a few changes since I was last around.

[whitt]

Just wanting to confirm: There is no difference between GCP and special apps, right?

The whole system seems to have undergone a few changes since I was last around.

Correct, Close to make use of your CGP, you need to enter a special app/extended subguild app where you explain out how you plan to expend your karma + 3CGP in build out of your new character [karma for race/guild + extended subguild + bumps as appropriate].  ETA: If you want a guild or race outside your karma range you still need to spec-app that.

Each extended sub-guild has a CGP cost of 3 for this purpose, which varies from the explained cost of the subguild in some cases in the help file.

You can still build out a character with no skill bumps and with race and regular guilds/sub-guilds available to your character based on karma without a spec app.

Edited: cause RGS is right.  There is still a difference between a Special App for playing roles above your karma and ext.subuild/skill bumps.

[RogueGunslinger]

Incorrect.

A special app can be for anything you can imagine. Want a mutant with super high strength and armored skin? You special app that. You might not exactly get it, but if you want it you must special app it. This type of app takes around a month, maybe longer.

Extended subguild/skill bump are only for the extended subguilds and skill bumps, and they take much less time to go through the request tool. They are usually accepted around a week to ten days.

[John]

Thanks guys.

[Rooger]

New player question...

Can an existing player be given crafting skill bumps to master level?

The reason I'm asking is, I just got eaten (again) and now I'm going to try Armormaker as a sub guild. But I also see, that there's an extended sub guild called Master Armorsmith. I read about Master Crafting and was going to use that as a long term goal for my character.

So I guess my question is...

Do I stick with the character I have now, and work my way up to whatever the ceiling is on Armormaker -- then request a bump to Master?

or

Cancel/suicide or whatever my current player, request Master Armorsmith first, and then wait a week to start playing again while the request is looked at?

or

Do I even need to worry about this because an Armormaker can eventually do Master Crafting?

[whitt]

Can an existing player be given crafting skill bumps to master level?

The reason I'm asking is, I just got eaten (again) and now I'm going to try Armormaker as a sub guild. But I also see, that there's an extended sub guild called Master Armorsmith. I read about Master Crafting and was going to use that as a long term goal for my character.

First off... welcome to Arm!  Grats on getting eaten (again)!

The normal sub-guilds cap below Master.  You would need the extended sub-guild if you want to reach Master in Armor Making.

Do I stick with the character I have now, and work my way up to whatever the ceiling is on Armormaker -- then request a bump to Master?
or
Cancel/suicide or whatever my current player, request Master Armorsmith first, and then wait a week to start playing again while the request is looked at?
or
Do I even need to worry about this because an Armormaker can eventually do Master Crafting?

Not C. 

A. Sticking with your character has some value because you can learn the basics of crafting and RP'ing a crafter without worrying about messing up with your special app'd character.  Maybe point your next crafter North if this one is South, or South if this one is North.

B. I would suggest at least submitting the Ext. Subguild request first.  If you haven't played your current new character very much or at all, you might be able to "retire" the character, but really just be using all the background descriptions and such for this new character submission.

[Rooger]

thanks for the quick reply

I think I'll go with option #D though

I really don't want to wait a week, doing nothing. And I'm not sure I want to spend a week on a character I know is going to get stored or whatever...


I'll just go in a completely different direction

[Rooger]

I know new players complaining is probably considered bad form but...

the more I think about this, the crazier it sounds.... which makes me feel I might be missing something

The cost for unlocking a master crafter, is the same as unlocking a half-giant, and more than unlocking a magic user?

Do master crafters automatically start out with a much higher minimum in their chosen skill (like getting skill bumps built in?)

Is a Master Chef really that amazing?

I realize that some of the extended sub guilds are probably pretty awesome, and most likely have potential for abuse
**Berserker Merchant "What do you mean you insist on keeping the price where it is?!?!?!?!" e hurls twin bladed axe, embedding it the the nearest wall

but to me, it seems like this system is saying

Step 1. put in an application that may or may not be accepted... hang on a week, don't call us--we'll call you
Steps 2 though 1 billion. play your cards just right, don't die, learn all the secretest secrets of your chosen craft
then, if you get there...
Step 1billion and 1. congratulations you can actually use the thing you applied for 6 months ago... if you die along they way, sorry bout that. but you still have 2 more applications for this year. please try again.

IMESHO... (ever-so-humble opinion) these CGPs would be better used to allow submission of mastercraft items by non-masters.

[helix]

the more I think about this, the crazier it sounds.... which makes me feel I might be missing something

The cost for unlocking a master crafter, is the same as unlocking a half-giant, and more than unlocking a magic user?

The thing that you're missing here is that you aren't just getting a master crafter.

Consider a warrior/master armorsmith.

Now you potentially have a master warrior, master crafter. The combination of two skillsets at master level does require some additional trust in players, represented by the special applications. Given that all Extended Subguilds are standardized at 3 CGP until a more automated system is in place, the answer is yes - though that may change in the future.

Likewise, particularly effective combinations - warrior/outdoorsman, ranger/slipknife, etc, etc - represent the possibility for extremely codedly powerful characters. Combining a warrior and ranger's skillsets, or a ranger and assassin's skillsets do represent a greater power level than a Vivaduan or Rukkian, in my opinion.

Also keep in mind that you can be a master crafter without playing an extended subguild - just play a merchant.

[valeria]

I know new players complaining is probably considered bad form but...

A new player complaining is definitely not bad form unless it's whiny and not constructive.  Your complaint seems like it's intended to be constructive, so no, I wouldn't say it's bad form.

The cost for unlocking a master crafter, is the same as unlocking a half-giant, and more than unlocking a magic user?

Do master crafters automatically start out with a much higher minimum in their chosen skill (like getting skill bumps built in?)

Is a Master Chef really that amazing?

I think the 3 cgp for characters that can master crafting skills does represent a level of trust.  A mastercrafter writes items.  Think about it for a moment.... some of these items are going to be permanently in the game.  That takes staff trust.  Also it represents some level of work staff is going to have to put in for those characters over regular characters, just like they might have to put some more work into monitoring the more abuse-possible skill and subguild combinations just to make sure that they aren't in fact being abused.  That's how I think of it anyway.

Step 1. put in an application that may or may not be accepted... hang on a week, don't call us--we'll call you
Steps 2 though 1 billion. play your cards just right, don't die, learn all the secretest secrets of your chosen craft
then, if you get there...
Step 1billion and 1. congratulations you can actually use the thing you applied for 6 months ago... if you die along they way, sorry bout that. but you still have 2 more applications for this year. please try again.

If you only think of your Armageddon characters as a set of skills that you're trying to master instead of stories that you're part of, you're probably approaching this harsh permadeath game from an angle that's going to be constantly frustrating anyway. 

[MeTekillot]

I don't think mastering a skill represents trust. Merchants master almost every crafting skill, at zero karma. We have the mastercraft request tool bureaucracy to stop bad items from getting in the game. I don't think trust comes anywhere into it.

[wizturbo]

The cost for unlocking a master crafter, is the same as unlocking a half-giant, and more than unlocking a magic user?

I think you're misunderstanding the system.  In order to play a half-giant, desert-elf, or stone/water elementalist you need Karma.  3 CGP =/= Half-giant.  There's a minimum karma requirement to play any of those roles without a full on special application for reaching outside of your karma level.

Now, if you have 3 karma, you could use your +3CGP and app for a half-giant with the Master Chef extended subguild.  Or a half-giant water elementalist with 1 skill boost, as both water elementalist and half-giant are within your Karma level to play without special applications.

If you wanted to play a Krathi though, you'd need to special app as you only have 3 karma and those require 4.  Of course, when you do app, you could request 2 skill bumps along with it since you'd have 6 CGP on the app...  Make sense?

[Rooger]

If you only think of your Armageddon characters as a set of skills that you're trying to master instead of stories that you're part of, you're probably approaching this harsh permadeath game from an angle that's going to be constantly frustrating anyway. 

yeah, it's something I fully haven't wrapped my head around yet...

If it's all about telling a story, then why is there any kind of "system" at all. Why do we even have attributes? Why is it encouraged to switch characters at all?... like why earn karma on one character  just to create new character with a "more powerful" race and/or guild and/or sub-guild? For me the answer for that is to better protect what is mine. A prime example is my character as noobface nobody, has had multiple mounts stolen. One time, I was at the stable got off a mount, and someone else offered it to the stable hand and got a ticket for it... There was nothing I could do about it. If I had the ability to put boots upside someone's ass, I would have. Could very well have died, because I have no idea who it was, but at least I would have felt better about it, instead of just having to watch helplessly as something that I put effort into acquiring taken from me.

but more to the point here...

In my own case, I was interested in the master crafting process for the sake of, in theory, creating something permanent to change the game. To the best of my knowledge, no other game is currently offering user driven/generated content. I'm as interested in the process, probably more so, than the actual final product itself--at least at this point. If in theory, if I could create, the 'Armor of Bright Shininess' what is the upper limit? Given enough hours and days of effort, could I create a block of stone? The answer would seem to be yes. Could I make enough stone blocks to create a wall? How about a whole permanent building? How about a collection of buildings i.e. a settlement?

It's a very interesting can of worms when the lines between developer and player become blurry.

At this point, I believe the challenge is for my character to learn enough about the world, to get deep enough involved in a plot line, to spawn a sub plot of my own, for others to interact with. I guess I view mastering a skill as both a means, and also a chance to prove that I can create something worth doing.

[Rokal]

If you only think of your Armageddon characters as a set of skills that you're trying to master instead of stories that you're part of, you're probably approaching this harsh permadeath game from an angle that's going to be constantly frustrating anyway.  

yeah, it's something I fully haven't wrapped my head around yet...

If it's all about telling a story, then why is there any kind of "system" at all. Why do we even have attributes? Why is it encouraged to switch characters at all?... like why earn karma on one character  just to create new character with a "more powerful" race and/or guild and/or sub-guild? For me the answer for that is to better protect what is mine. A prime example is my character as noobface nobody, has had multiple mounts stolen. One time, I was at the stable got off a mount, and someone else offered it to the stable hand and got a ticket for it... There was nothing I could do about it. If I had the ability to put boots upside someone's ass, I would have. Could very well have died, because I have no idea who it was, but at least I would have felt better about it, instead of just having to watch helplessly as something that I put effort into acquiring taken from me.

but more to the point here...

In my own case, I was interested in the master crafting process for the sake of, in theory, creating something permanent to change the game. To the best of my knowledge, no other game is currently offering user driven/generated content. I'm as interested in the process, probably more so, than the actual final product itself--at least at this point. If in theory, if I could create, the 'Armor of Bright Shininess' what is the upper limit? Given enough hours and days of effort, could I create a block of stone? The answer would seem to be yes. Could I make enough stone blocks to create a wall? How about a whole permanent building? How about a collection of buildings i.e. a settlement?

It's a very interesting can of worms when the lines between developer and player become blurry.

At this point, I believe the challenge is for my character to learn enough about the world, to get deep enough involved in a plot line, to spawn a sub plot of my own, for others to interact with. I guess I view mastering a skill as both a means, and also a chance to prove that I can create something worth doing.

As a certain admin recently mentioned - quite honestly, the most satisfying things you can do/ achieve in Armageddon, do not require any sort of coded ability what so ever. I'm a new player too, but i've experienced it first hand

[solera]

Code is just a tool that deals the reality that scrabs are lethal.
Most power Is uncoded, though ultimately backed by code. Want to build a building?  Be the noble that makes a case for spending sids to  their House. Or be the artisan whose crew oversees it.
There are examples in Tuluk of buildings and artwork erected après le Deluge. These were spearheaded by pc nobles, with House approval and backing , materials collected by PCs, built I imagine by virtual labour and sessions of PC role play. Under the benevolent gaze of His Faithful.
If you want to make the shiniest sword, join Salarr as a recruit crafter. Truely, no one else in the Known can make Them, afaik.

[Shoka Windrunner]

Okay. I'm going to try to see if I understand this completely. Apologies if format or punctuation gets wonky, Im on my phone. Also apologies for doing this, but I usually have to rephrase and talk about something to grasp it fully.

1. Right now say I have 5 karma. Now if I want nothing special added, I could play a Half-giant elkrosian with subguild forager. This does not count against my three yearly CGP applications.

2. Or I can, while STILL playing my current character, apply for a character who is a human 0 krathi 4/outdoorsman 3 with one skill bump. Then, if approved, can play it AFTER my current character dies or I store him, even if 5 months down the road. Also would count as one of my three.

[Narf]

Okay. I'm going to try to see if I understand this completely. Apologies if format or punctuation gets wonky, Im on my phone. Also apologies for doing this, but I usually have to rephrase and talk about something to grasp it fully.

1. Right now say I have 5 karma. Now if I want nothing special added, I could play a Half-giant elkrosian with subguild forager. This does not count against my three yearly CGP applications.

2. Or I can, while STILL playing my current character, apply for a character who is a human 0 krathi 4/outdoorsman 3 with one skill bump. Then, if approved, can play it AFTER my current character dies or I store him, even if 5 months down the road. Also would count as one of my three.

#2 looks kosher, but half-giant elkrosian is more than five karma. You add the totals together (3 + 5?) for 8 karma required to play without a special app.

[chuci]

No, if you have 5 Karma you can play anything at 5 karma or under.

If a half-giant costs 3 Karma, and an Elkrosian costs 5 karma, you can play an Elkrosian of any 5 karma or under race, including half-giant.

CGP costs stack, karma costs do not.

[Malken]

staff, plz make us stop do all this math, it's hard

[Talia]

CGP costs stack, karma costs do not.

Not true for special apps (including extended subguild and skill bump apps). If you put in for an Elkrosian (5k) half-giant (3k) with an extended subguild (3k) and X skill bumps, you are going to need karma + CGP = 5+3+3+X. (Which makes it so you couldn't have skill bumps with that application, because no one gets 14 points to spend.)

For reference: http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,48618.0.html

1. Right now say I have 5 karma. Now if I want nothing special added, I could play a Half-giant elkrosian with subguild forager. This does not count against my three yearly CGP applications.

2. Or I can, while STILL playing my current character, apply for a character who is a human 0 krathi 4/outdoorsman 3 with one skill bump. Then, if approved, can play it AFTER my current character dies or I store him, even if 5 months down the road. Also would count as one of my three.

1. Correct.

2. Correct.

[chuci]

Right but if you're apping for a karma-only role and you have the karma, 5 is enough. Which was the original question ("nothing special added").

So Narf's answer to #1 is actually incorrect.

If you're special-apping then yeah, that's a different weird world of CGP and Karma combinations that I haven't traversed.

That said, if you have the karma and are just applying for an extended subguild with x skill bumps, then it should actually be:

5 + 3 + x because Karma doesn't stack, only CGP stacks, and CGP is for extended subguilds and skill bumps. So actually that's 8 for the guild/race combo and extended subguild, and 3 points left over for skil bumps.

Making karma stack in special apps when it doesn't normally stack elsewhere would be weird.

[Barzalene]

Its like new math.