CGP/ext subguilds/skill bump discussion

[Talia]

Making karma stack in special apps when it doesn't normally stack elsewhere would be weird.

I'm telling you what the policy is and how we are doing it. Think of it as the cost of doing business via special application, maybe.

[BadSkeelz]

Aren't races and (sub)Guilds you've unlocked via the normal karma route essentially freebies, so long as you're not spec apping? So Someone with 5Karma could play a Half Giant Rukkian with zero skill bumps and not use up one of their yearly apps.

But if you have to put in a special app (applying for a role outside your karma range, an extended subguild or skill bumps) then 1) you're using one of your year's apps and 2) maths come in to it.

The maths part is pretty simple. Everyone's got 3CGP + X Karma. The above player with 5Karma has 8 points (5+3) total to spend on their race, subguild, and skill bumps.

Making karma stack in special apps when it doesn't normally stack elsewhere would be weird.

I'm telling you what the policy is and how we are doing it. Think of it as the cost of doing business via special application, maybe.

It makes sense to me. Otherwise my hypothetical 5karma player could have a Half Giant Rukkian with a whopping 8 skill points to distribute.

[chuci]

Making karma stack in special apps when it doesn't normally stack elsewhere would be weird.

I'm telling you what the policy is and how we are doing it. Think of it as the cost of doing business via special application, maybe.

[Shoka Windrunner]

I don't think, that using the normal character creation, you can ever go OVER your karma +3.  Pretty sure.  So it's not that weird, just means that normal character creation, you are auto approved...sort of.

Now you may end up UNDER karma +3, but...you would have to have under 3 karma...I think?  Just doing quick maths in my head.

Anyway.

Can you get a skill bump to those...uhh...hidden skills?  Don't know what they are called but the ones that don't show up when you type skills?  Like say I want to be able to drink basically anyone under the table, can I get a bump to my ability to hold my liquor?  As an example?

[Jihelu]

I don't think, that using the normal character creation, you can ever go OVER your karma +3.  Pretty sure.  So it's not that weird, just means that normal character creation, you are auto approved...sort of.

Now you may end up UNDER karma +3, but...you would have to have under 3 karma...I think?  Just doing quick maths in my head.

Anyway.

Can you get a skill bump to those...uhh...hidden skills?  Don't know what they are called but the ones that don't show up when you type skills?  Like say I want to be able to drink basically anyone under the table, can I get a bump to my ability to hold my liquor?  As an example?

Last I checked hidden skills couldn't be bumped.

#Notamod.

[Malken]

[HavokBlue]

Damnit, now I'm confused.

So if I have five karma, I can app a half giant krathi via the game client just fine. But if I have five karma and want to spec app a half giant krathi, its actually worth 9 points and out of my range?...

[KankWhisperer]

Damnit, now I'm confused.

[Beethoven]

Wouldn't half-giant krathi be worth seven points in total if it worked like that? So it would still be within your spec-app range.

[BadSkeelz]

Damnit, now I'm confused.

So if I have five karma, I can app a half giant krathi via the game client just fine. But if I have five karma and want to spec app a half giant krathi, its actually worth 9 points and out of my range?...

Half Giant = 3 Karma
Krathi = 4 Karma

I don't know if you would need 4 Karma to just app in as a Half Giant Krathi normally, or if you would need 7 Karma. I think it's the former (4 karma) because otherwise a Half Giant Whiran or Nilazi would be impossible (being 10 karma points total) and I've never heard anything to that effect.

If you wanted to spec-app in as a Half Giant Krathi you would need at least seven points (karma + CGP) to acquire it. You would only spec app for one if you couldn't acquire one normally through your karma score, OR you want to buy an extended subguild and/or skill bumps for it. So if you, Havok, have five karma, you'll have 8 points to spec-app with. 4 points would go to the Half giant, 3 to the krathi guild, and 1 point to whatever skill you'd want bumped.

#notamod but I have been apping skill bumps and extended subguilds exclusively for the last six months...

[Nyr]

From the public part of those docs:

Race and guild choice will now be taken into account when considering CGP applications.

On your own, without involving staff, using just your karma and the normal application process, you do not need to consider the karma of the race you want to play plus the karma of the guild you want to play.  If you have 5 karma, you can create a half-giant elkran, because you have 5 karma.

When you file a CGP application, the rules mimic what the eventual automated system will be.  You (and staff) must now consider the karma of the race you want to play plus the karma of the guild you want to play.  If you have 5 karma and want to do an extended subguild or a skill bump, you have to break down what you wish to get.

5 karma = 5 CGP.  You get 3 from the application, so let's call it 8 CGP.

Do you want a half-giant?  If so, that will use 3 CGP.  You have 5 remaining.
Do you want a rukkian?  If so, that will use 2 CGP.  You have 3 remaining.  You can spend this on 3 skill bumps or an extended subguild.
Let's say you go with HG but want to go with a different guild.  Do you want a krathi?  If so, that will use 4 CGP.  You have 1 remaining.  You can use that on a skill bump.
Let's say you go with HG but want to go with a different guild. Do you want an elkran?  If so, that will use 5 CGP.  You have none remaining.  You have also wasted your time, and your application...because you could have done this already, without staff.
Let's say you want to go with a sorcerer.  If so, that will use 8 CGP.  Your sorcerer must be one of the 0-karma races and you have no CGP to spend on an extended subguild or skill bumps.

[chuci]

So, basically, the way Karma works now will be scrapped in favor of taking race into account when the CGP system finally gets automated and Karma is done away with?

And the app-in system is mimicking the way CGP will work in the future?

And right now we just have a confusing hybrid of the two?

[WithSprinkles]

I feel kinda silly for saying it, but it would be kinda neat to have a calculator/app for this.

I may not be understanding the process and I know it should be easy, but it would be nice to just put in your karma level or whatever at one end of a general information calculator front end and then have a drop down list of your race and guild options at the other end of it along with your sub guild options and have it spit out how much you have left over for skill bumps after you make your selections. Then maybe have a general list of skills underneath that you can ask to have bumped if you decide to put in an application?

I dunno. Just shooting from the hip and likely talking nonsense.

[Shoka Windrunner]

Edit: Sniped by Nyr.

This is how it seems:

1. If you use the normal character creation system you have access to when you connect to the game, whatever you see there that is unlocked by your Karma, you are free to do.  Just like always.

2. If you want to delve into getting skill bumps, extended subguilds or getting access to races/guilds, then the CGP rules apply. This means you may not be able to be that half-giant/krathi/Grebber, because that is 3+4+3 =10.  This is a balance issue.  It doesnt make necessarily logical sense, but balance is a necessary evil in games.  Think that this ultimately makes you more powerful and is more difficult to play responsibly. A human/krathi/grebber, is in your reach and by comparison, less powerful and easier to rp responsibly. A half-giant/ranger/grebber with one skill bump is in your reach and by comparison, less powerful and easier to play responsibly.

To be honest, this will change over time Im guessing, because I think some of the extended subguilds will be considered less powerful and easier to play responsibly.  We will see.  Its a good change and an interesting one.  Allowing for more diversity in the character base (even more than just adding the subguilds) making people even less cookie cutter than before.

[wizturbo]

Here's how to easily calculate this.

CGP Application  (3 per year):

Pick your race:

0  -  Human, Dwarf, Half-elf, Elf
1  -  Desert Elf
3  -  Half-Giant
7  -  Mul*

Pick your Guild: (You must have at least enough karma to cover this section in order to do this on the "fast track" Skill bump/Extended Subguild queue.  Otherwise it's a full special app with a longer queue generally...)

0   -  Merchant, Pickpocket, Burglar, Warrior, Assassin, Ranger
2   -  Water Mage, Stone Mage
4   -  Shadow Mage, Fire Mage
5   -  Lightning Mage
6   -  Wind Mage, Void Mage
8   -  Psionicist, Sorcerer

Pick your subguild:

0  -   Any Standard Subguild
3  -   Any Extended Subguild

Pick # of skill bumps (1 point per).

Add these all together, and it must be less than or equal to your current karma level + 3.  

*Mul Magickers are not permitted, even if you have the Karma for it.  

Example:  Dwarven Stone Mage with an Extended Subguild and 3 skill bumps.  0 + 2 + 3 + 3 = 8 char-gen points.  Requires 5 karma (5 from karma + 3 from using one of your special apps for the year).

Normal Application Process:  (If the number to the left is less than or equal to your karma number, you can play it, no math required)

Pick your race:

0  -  Human, Dwarf, Half-elf, Elf
1  -  Desert Elf
3  -  Half-Giant
7  -  Mul*

Pick your Guild:

0   -  Merchant, Pickpocket, Burglar, Warrior, Assassin, Ranger
2   -  Water Mage, Stone Mage
4   -  Shadow Mage, Fire Mage
5   -  Lightning Mage
6   -  Wind Mage, Void Mage
8   -  Psionicist, Sorcerer

*Mul Magickers are not permitted, even if you have the Karma for it.

Example:  Half-giant Sorcerer with no extended subguild (not a special app) and no skill bumps (not a special app).  8 karma required for the Sorcerer part, half-giant is under 8 so that's covered too.

[aeglaeca]

Skill bump/ext. subguild apps are different from +3 karma apps though, aren't they? You get three of the latter per year whereas the former you can do if you have the karma for them without any sort of limit?

[wizturbo]

Skill bump/ext. subguild apps are different from +3 karma apps though, aren't they? You get three of the latter per year whereas the former you can do if you have the karma for them without any sort of limit?

Nope, they all count as special apps, its just Skill bump/ext. subguilds take a fraction of the time to get approved.

[BadSkeelz]

Yeah, the +3 karma apps was the old system. It's now kind of represented by the fact that everyone gets 3 CGP + their karma score for when they want to do special applications.

Edit: You still also had to spec app under the old system and had a 3/year limit.

[Nyr]

So, basically, the way Karma works now will be scrapped in favor of taking race into account when the CGP system finally gets automated and Karma is done away with?

And the app-in system is mimicking the way CGP will work in the future?

And right now we just have a confusing hybrid of the two?

More or less, sure.

If you don't want to put in a CGP application, you don't have to worry about anything.  Karma worked the way it always worked.

If you do want to put in a CGP application, the cost of things you want will subtract from your total amount of CGP in the application.

At this point, take your karma amount.  Add 3 to it.  Let's call this "X".  Everything you want to play that has a CGP cost subtracts from "X".

[Norcal]

If I understand this correctly then, the most any player could ever have to spend is 11 CGP (8 karma +3).  So that means it is impossible for a half giant sorcerer to have any kind of extended subguild (HG 3 = Sorcerer .  The only way to ever get an extended subguild on a sorcerer is to play a 0 karma race. This seems logical for HG and dwarves, but it penalizes elves for no reason I can see.

The same would hold true for someone with 8 karma wanting to lay a HG with a 6 karma guild (HG 3 + 6 =9. Not enough left for an extended subguild, but could get two skill bumps). You could play them as a 2 karma or less race and still get an extended subguild.
Is this correct?

If so are there plans to change things so that given the player has the necessary karma, all the races could be played with all the guild or ext-subguild combinations? Except Muls of course.

[HavokBlue]

Sorcerers are already subguilds so you aren't going to be apping for a sorc and an aggressor.

[Cavaticus]

If so are there plans to change things so that given the player has the necessary karma, all the races could be played with all the guild or ext-subguild combinations?

HavokBlue is correct that sorcerers ARE subguilds, so extended subguilds are a moot point with them.

The only thing out of reach would be a half-giant void/wind elementalist with an extended subguild (those would cost 12 CGP).

I checked the database, and HG wind/void elementalists are, perhaps predictably, sort of a niche market. If you are an eight karma player and are just really, really, really dying to play your half-giant nilazi majordomo, go ahead and put in a request I guess?

[Nyr]

If so are there plans to change things so that given the player has the necessary karma, all the races could be played with all the guild or ext-subguild combinations? Except Muls of course.

Not at this time.  This was intentionally designed with those restrictions in mind; it was not an oversight.