Culture in terms of water.

[rodic]

I did a query for "water" and got 22 pages going back to 2005.
Main purpose of the thread is me inquiring about culture, particularly surrounding water.  I couldn't through my causal sifting find an exact thread that discussed in length water. Besides that it was obvious scarce.

(As a side note: I recently finished off reading most of the Dune Series, which not surprising made me wanna play Arm again).

I was think about Arm, tribals, and dune in terms of water.

As the Fremen (blanket term for the natives on Arrakis setting of Dune) had their entire culture functioned around Water in many ways. Their entire lives were measured in water.  Particularly in conserving their personal body moisture because it was considered to be the tribe's water.  In fact upon death, a Fremen could expect that as soon as possible they'd be taken to a death still to have their remains completely drained of any and all moisture, the water distributed amongst the tribe.  Water was more precious then gold, and perhaps just a precious as the Spice Melange that made their planet so prized.  Their entire technological progress centered around preserving water.

This in mind, and knowing that Armageddon does pull some influences from Dune. The help documents didn't mention much about water, other then it was scarce and obviously needed to survive.

So I was pondering the cultural perceptions around water waste.  Such has sweating, spiting, crying, salivating and what not.
I remember vaguely this came up as a topic in earlier threads, and did my best to find and search for it.  Yet sadly 22 pages worth of threads, I never could find a particular thread or discussion about appropriate role play/culture in terms of water.

Dune's Fremen had terms like "Water fat" for off worlders, they saw it has a sign of weakness. Would Armageddon's Tribals feel similarly?  Would a desert tribal find City born, or high born people as disgusting water wasting weaklings who could never survive the harsh desert climate?  What are significant documents I should look at to master a desert wander's outlook on water?
Do terms like "water fat" "water waster" exist in the prevelant cultural land scape of Armageddon?

As I know in some ways the North is a bit more "water rich" than the south, do certain cultural perceptions change depending on some ones usual geographical location?  Would a Northerner find water a tiny less significant then say a Tribal who hails around from the Vrun Driath/Salt Flats region?

I apologize in advance if I missed the major "water" thread, but I honestly searched.

[Barzalene]

I don't have answers, but I like that you brought it up and wish there was more of that through out all stratas of Arm.

[BleakOne]

Water is very scarce, and most of the reliable sources of it are controlled by the Powers That Be. The majority of Allanakis' water would probably, directly or indirectly, come from the white-robed Templarate. I'd imagine (and this is just my opinion) that it would be one of many things people are cowed by the Templarate with. Without the Highlord, there is no water, no life... only death.

I can totally see a tribal group having water-centric beliefs. The existence of magickers and the few reliable sources of water might make them not quite so obsessed as the Fremen, but who knows?

I would imagine the average southerner would think the north are wasteful of water, and tribals would probably consider city-born people to be too soft to live in the 'real world' of the wastes. The more isolated the tribe, the stronger their opinion of the weakness of those born in the city would be.

As for various water-using bodily effects, that would be up to each individual character's beliefs and circumstances. Crying might be considered a deeper expression of sadness than in the real world, since it shows a depth of feeling which also uses up valuable water. Spitting could be a graver insult, seeing as how you are willing to disadvantage yourself just to insult the other party.

[wizturbo]

I get the sense that water is a valuable resource but isn't anywhere near the level of value that you'd see in Dune.  Think of it as a bit more valuable than modern day oil.  This probably varies a lot depending on where you are in the world though.  Some areas are far, far more barren than others in Zalanthas.   Also, it can be created through magickal means, so that naturally provides a supply to those who'd mettle in such things.

[RogueGunslinger]

The in-game reality is that water is not rare, not hard to find, not expensive.

[Down Under]

Really hard to find in the wastes, though.

[Barzalene]

The in-game reality is that water is not rare, not hard to find, not expensive.

That's true. I think food and water are really problematic in that it's hard to strike that balance of realism and playability. I think the only answer may be in rp choices. I don't know.

[Harmless]

The way people die from dehydration is by being dead broke and not knowing how to get free water or to earn enough sid to buy water, or by being outside and far away from any known water sources and running out. In those situations, water is immensely valuable, and the cool part is that once you're thirsty, if the weather is unfavorable, you VERY RAPIDLY go to being very thirsty, dehydrated, and then experiencing the effects of dehydration within a day after that. If you don't find water within a day at that point, or at least some shade to wait for help in, you're dead.

Dying from dehydration is therefore the end of the life of the clueless, the unprepared, or the unfortunate by some other means. Exiles die of dehydration most commonly, as do explorers who unfortunately get trapped in some way and can't locate water.

Most of the population of Zalanthas lives in cities or other settlements and rarely leave them. For those people, water is not scarce, and has much less "value."

Dune is a setting where water is ridiculously scarce and yet people are compelled to keep moving to Arrakis due to it being the only source of spice, the most valuable commodity in the universe. Zalanthas is more of a stable world without any economic forces from other planets influencing its population and resources -- and as has been mentioned, magickal sources of water, as well as geologic sources in certain regions.

So yeah, it's very different. But water is really valuable to certain people, and finding a way to deprive someone of water is a nearly guaranteed means of killing them. Therefore, people are very aware of the importance of water, but you really wouldn't ever see someone doing something like draining a corpse of water -- unless that drainer was locked in a water-poor region for some strange reason and had no other way of getting it.

[Riev]

That time when clans had to go out and get their own water (and the game's population was like 20% less than what it is now).


Water in cities is going to be less important because, while expensive, it IS available. To the Fremen, it wasn't available but at high cost, it just really wasn't there. Dune walkers, tribals, people that live outside the comforts of cities (which, presumably, are founded on or near spots of high water flow) are more likely to consider water to be life but... you can get water for free and in relative safety if you know where to go, and have a few mercenaries (... or friends. Same thing).

[CodeMaster]

Some completely random thoughts on water consumption.  Sorry for the ridiculous braindump, but maybe this is the most appropriate thread for these thoughts:

I think the biggest contribution one can make to the 'culture of water consumption' in the game is to simply be hesitant about wasting water.  Those who should be most careful, I believe, are the ones in clans with infinite water supplies.  (Anecdote: I was once in a rugged clan with an infinite supply of water, and characters roleplayed things like cleaning themselves with it, pouring a full waterskin out in the process, etc. Most of these were awesome roleplayers who set a high bar for me, but this stood out to me as incongruent with the game world.)


Random building ideas:

Echoes in lower-class taverns about servers going around and recovering the last few drops from unfinished mugs into a larger barrel might help set the mood.

It might also be cool if a wider variety of second-tier water sellers were more common on the main paths through the cities.  So you could be strolling along with your friend and just stop for a drink at a street vendor of some variety, to top off your thirst levels, e.g.:

- An NPC that pours a bit of water into a dirty communal basin if you pay him: you could drink the water from the basin or, if you're wealthy, roleplay using it to polish up your signet ring and leave the water for someone else.

- In a poor Zalanthan neighborhood, a dirty entrepeneurial street kid might make a living selling the amassed dregs from a hundred mugs of ale he and his cohort recovered.  It's not "water" per se, but if you're dying of thirst, it's better than nothing.  And so on.


Random code ideas:

It would be cute if the 'spit <character>' social gave a message like:

Code Select Expand

You wouldn't really waste water like that, would you?

And with specific regard to some wilderness drinking spots:

It might be cool if you needed to have at least one hand free to drink from an object that was heavy enough (for instance, a barrel in the room, or a pool of water on the ground, etc).

It might also be cool if drinking from large objects had a 'before' delay to signify that you're ladelling from it, or drinking from your hands, or slurping it a bit at a time:

Code Select Expand


> drink puddle
You begin to drink from a puddle on the floor.
[delay...]
You finish drinking the water.
You are no longer thirsty.


It might also be cool if some wild water sources (like a pool of water in an oasis) required you to 'sit' to drink from, rendering you just a little bit more susceptible to being preyed upon.

Code Select Expand


> drink puddle
You'll need to be closer to the ground.  Try sitting.

> sit
You sit down.

> drink puddle
You begin to drink from a puddle on the floor.


[chrisdcoulombe]

I make my fresh roll ups buy water unless they are a thief of course, and then I try to wait for someone to show them the water sources or join a clan. 

[Eyeball]

Vivaduans should be a lot more prized and respected than they are. To the extent of gemmed Vivs being markedly more accepted in society than the other elementalist abominations.

[BadSkeelz]

If by "prized and respected" you mean "chained to posts and beaten with sticks so their tears can be used to fulfill your waterskin in a sort of Zalanthan water fountain," yeah, agreed.


On a more serious note, logically, yes, Vivaduans should be immensely valuable. But the magick hate among the population is very strong. Their magick might get you water, but most people don't feel like those means justify the end.

[rodic]

I always wonder what was up with water witches...
OR where Allanak seemingly get all that water to support it's population.

Despite the rare bodies of water able to be located in game.  I just always curious why... water scarcity isn't worked into the role play more.

I don't think water needs to be any more expensive or more scarce then it is for play-ability for that to happen...

Just seems odd that some documents say, it isn't unheard of for some one to be killed for their water... but you really don't see that often.  OOCly water isn't very scarce and I think that bleeds into character actions sadly, unintentionally. Why risk a character to get another characters water, when I just need to travel X rooms, or drop a few small?

Yes from a play stand point, it isn't too difficult to get water, but I feel as if ICly characters aren't respecting that scarcity as much as they realistically would.

That isn't a criticism, I just wish my characters waterskin where worth more, or if someone was coming to kill me, good chance its for my water.

To date, only been threatened over water once.  Kudo's to that player.

Again I don't think anything is wrong with the amount of water in game, I just wish there was a more nuanced role play around the scarcity of water, I feel as if water, would have a big cultural impact on a populace effectively city locked because of its scarcity.

[Eyeball]

If by "prized and respected" you mean "chained to posts and beaten with sticks so their tears can be used to fulfill your waterskin in a sort of Zalanthan water fountain," yeah, agreed.


On a more serious note, logically, yes, Vivaduans should be immensely valuable. But the magick hate among the population is very strong. Their magick might get you water, but most people don't feel like those means justify the end.

Thing is, Vivs save peoples' lives from time to time. After a while, when the people saved realize their skin isn't going to turn to scales or their hair fall out, it'd be pretty natural for them to start feeling some gratitude or appreciation. Their attitude (and their family's) toward Vivs would soften. Repeat often enough and society might moderate its hate for them.

[Riev]

So far as water scarcity, there  has to be some suspension of disbelief. Personally, I pine for the days when even the Byn had to go on excursions to fill a few barrels with water because nothing was free. "Free" water sources were constantly poisoned, or run dry, but this led to people who joined clans for "safety" dying off because they didn't log in when the barrels had water.

It would be more interesting, I think, if there were more echoes or staff animations of people literally being stabbed in a bar, because someone wanted water. Or some emaciated 'rinther walking up to someone in the Gaj and stabbing their waterskin, to drink anything that was left.

Its a fine line to walk. In game, water is precious. The value of obsidian coins is tied to water, those with a lot of coin (nobility) typically have access to the best/most water, because water is life. Playability wise, too many new players were dying, and even experienced but low-playtime people would die because water was not available. I would like to go back to those times, but I can see how a carefully worked concept dying because you are off-peak is a load of inix poop.

[Centurion]

A little bit of a necro...

Id like to see free water removed from clans, and alot of food programs as well. But, add more natural water resources in the game. Allow cooks to have a real purpose in clans, and Tenneshi to be utilised more and the Vivaduans the best friend you hate.

When do clan accounts ever get low? Maybe it might stop some lazy play as food and water are limitless in clans, and people might have a stronger need to do business in clans to keep up money, and not just wait for the account to get cleaned out when it reaches a limit. Also, we might not see fifty pieces of gortok and scrab meat in every clan hall, sitting there wasting away.

[Barsook]

I agree about the free water and food in clans.  It's removing all of the fun roleplaying and also like you said, creating that backlog of meat in the mess halls of clans.  But there should be still rules on when a clan needs the free food and water.   Someone talked here talked about those rules somewhere...

[Centurion]

Maybe still not free, but within a clan estate, instead of there being an npc with a script for free food, have an npc vendor that sells the food? Sometimes clans might not have cooks, so that will still cover being able to feed pcs. Just add the water seller script npc sellers as well. Though id still like to see the PC water sellers get some love. Food for thought.

[Barsook]

I would rather see PC water/food (uncooked and cooked) sellers too since the player econ is very poor.

I also like your idea.

[Delirium]

One thing that would solve the "but we have 829743298 pieces of meat laying around' problem is a script to enable you to give containers of food items to the clan cook, much like the spice/dung/salt merchants, and they'd kick you a little extra for helping them out. So anything edible goes to the cooks.

1-3 obsidian per meat item, depending on its innate value - so not much, but you could get rid of it in bulk.

Then they're virtually feeding the clan populace, meat isn't piled on the tables, and you get a bit of a kickback. Everyone wins.

[Quell]

Oh! Or you could make cooks into tool objects that give +gazillion to your cook skill when you use it in the same room as them (like an oven or a room bonus).

[MeTekillot]

I do not wish to relive the days of the Byn where the Runners would die of dehydration because nobody could organize a time to fill the water tun.

[Down Under]

I'd rather see the focus of plots be murder, corruption, and betrayal, than a Sims-esque hunt for food and water at every possible moment, because your PC's life literally depends on it.

There's a balance between realism and playability. Indies definitely have to deal with the struggle of no free lunches, but it's assumed that joining a Clan provides food, water, and shelter for you, and base pay.

[wizturbo]

I'm also not a fan of stripping clans of their food/water.  Coded clans have reached a level of prosperity where their employees do not risk hunger or dehydration while in their various bases of operation.  While it's certainly someone's job to make sure everyone has food and water, I'd rather leave those logistics to the VNPC population.  Adding getting food and water for your clan as another item on the list of sponsored roles responsibilities doesn't sound appealing at all to me.

I would just encourage people to place a realistic value on water and food, as a means of fortifying the virtual larder of the clan.  Clan leaders should reward hunters or scavengers who bring back food and water, as though they brought back any other  materials of equal value.