Culture in terms of water.

[rodic]

I did a query for "water" and got 22 pages going back to 2005.
Main purpose of the thread is me inquiring about culture, particularly surrounding water.  I couldn't through my causal sifting find an exact thread that discussed in length water. Besides that it was obvious scarce.

(As a side note: I recently finished off reading most of the Dune Series, which not surprising made me wanna play Arm again).

I was think about Arm, tribals, and dune in terms of water.

As the Fremen (blanket term for the natives on Arrakis setting of Dune) had their entire culture functioned around Water in many ways. Their entire lives were measured in water.  Particularly in conserving their personal body moisture because it was considered to be the tribe's water.  In fact upon death, a Fremen could expect that as soon as possible they'd be taken to a death still to have their remains completely drained of any and all moisture, the water distributed amongst the tribe.  Water was more precious then gold, and perhaps just a precious as the Spice Melange that made their planet so prized.  Their entire technological progress centered around preserving water.

This in mind, and knowing that Armageddon does pull some influences from Dune. The help documents didn't mention much about water, other then it was scarce and obviously needed to survive.

So I was pondering the cultural perceptions around water waste.  Such has sweating, spiting, crying, salivating and what not.
I remember vaguely this came up as a topic in earlier threads, and did my best to find and search for it.  Yet sadly 22 pages worth of threads, I never could find a particular thread or discussion about appropriate role play/culture in terms of water.

Dune's Fremen had terms like "Water fat" for off worlders, they saw it has a sign of weakness. Would Armageddon's Tribals feel similarly?  Would a desert tribal find City born, or high born people as disgusting water wasting weaklings who could never survive the harsh desert climate?  What are significant documents I should look at to master a desert wander's outlook on water?
Do terms like "water fat" "water waster" exist in the prevelant cultural land scape of Armageddon?

As I know in some ways the North is a bit more "water rich" than the south, do certain cultural perceptions change depending on some ones usual geographical location?  Would a Northerner find water a tiny less significant then say a Tribal who hails around from the Vrun Driath/Salt Flats region?

I apologize in advance if I missed the major "water" thread, but I honestly searched.

[Barzalene]

I don't have answers, but I like that you brought it up and wish there was more of that through out all stratas of Arm.

[BleakOne]

Water is very scarce, and most of the reliable sources of it are controlled by the Powers That Be. The majority of Allanakis' water would probably, directly or indirectly, come from the white-robed Templarate. I'd imagine (and this is just my opinion) that it would be one of many things people are cowed by the Templarate with. Without the Highlord, there is no water, no life... only death.

I can totally see a tribal group having water-centric beliefs. The existence of magickers and the few reliable sources of water might make them not quite so obsessed as the Fremen, but who knows?

I would imagine the average southerner would think the north are wasteful of water, and tribals would probably consider city-born people to be too soft to live in the 'real world' of the wastes. The more isolated the tribe, the stronger their opinion of the weakness of those born in the city would be.

As for various water-using bodily effects, that would be up to each individual character's beliefs and circumstances. Crying might be considered a deeper expression of sadness than in the real world, since it shows a depth of feeling which also uses up valuable water. Spitting could be a graver insult, seeing as how you are willing to disadvantage yourself just to insult the other party.

[wizturbo]

I get the sense that water is a valuable resource but isn't anywhere near the level of value that you'd see in Dune.  Think of it as a bit more valuable than modern day oil.  This probably varies a lot depending on where you are in the world though.  Some areas are far, far more barren than others in Zalanthas.   Also, it can be created through magickal means, so that naturally provides a supply to those who'd mettle in such things.

[RogueGunslinger]

The in-game reality is that water is not rare, not hard to find, not expensive.

[Down Under]

Really hard to find in the wastes, though.

[Barzalene]

The in-game reality is that water is not rare, not hard to find, not expensive.

That's true. I think food and water are really problematic in that it's hard to strike that balance of realism and playability. I think the only answer may be in rp choices. I don't know.

[Harmless]

The way people die from dehydration is by being dead broke and not knowing how to get free water or to earn enough sid to buy water, or by being outside and far away from any known water sources and running out. In those situations, water is immensely valuable, and the cool part is that once you're thirsty, if the weather is unfavorable, you VERY RAPIDLY go to being very thirsty, dehydrated, and then experiencing the effects of dehydration within a day after that. If you don't find water within a day at that point, or at least some shade to wait for help in, you're dead.

Dying from dehydration is therefore the end of the life of the clueless, the unprepared, or the unfortunate by some other means. Exiles die of dehydration most commonly, as do explorers who unfortunately get trapped in some way and can't locate water.

Most of the population of Zalanthas lives in cities or other settlements and rarely leave them. For those people, water is not scarce, and has much less "value."

Dune is a setting where water is ridiculously scarce and yet people are compelled to keep moving to Arrakis due to it being the only source of spice, the most valuable commodity in the universe. Zalanthas is more of a stable world without any economic forces from other planets influencing its population and resources -- and as has been mentioned, magickal sources of water, as well as geologic sources in certain regions.

So yeah, it's very different. But water is really valuable to certain people, and finding a way to deprive someone of water is a nearly guaranteed means of killing them. Therefore, people are very aware of the importance of water, but you really wouldn't ever see someone doing something like draining a corpse of water -- unless that drainer was locked in a water-poor region for some strange reason and had no other way of getting it.

[Riev]

That time when clans had to go out and get their own water (and the game's population was like 20% less than what it is now).


Water in cities is going to be less important because, while expensive, it IS available. To the Fremen, it wasn't available but at high cost, it just really wasn't there. Dune walkers, tribals, people that live outside the comforts of cities (which, presumably, are founded on or near spots of high water flow) are more likely to consider water to be life but... you can get water for free and in relative safety if you know where to go, and have a few mercenaries (... or friends. Same thing).

[CodeMaster]

Some completely random thoughts on water consumption.  Sorry for the ridiculous braindump, but maybe this is the most appropriate thread for these thoughts:

I think the biggest contribution one can make to the 'culture of water consumption' in the game is to simply be hesitant about wasting water.  Those who should be most careful, I believe, are the ones in clans with infinite water supplies.  (Anecdote: I was once in a rugged clan with an infinite supply of water, and characters roleplayed things like cleaning themselves with it, pouring a full waterskin out in the process, etc. Most of these were awesome roleplayers who set a high bar for me, but this stood out to me as incongruent with the game world.)


Random building ideas:

Echoes in lower-class taverns about servers going around and recovering the last few drops from unfinished mugs into a larger barrel might help set the mood.

It might also be cool if a wider variety of second-tier water sellers were more common on the main paths through the cities.  So you could be strolling along with your friend and just stop for a drink at a street vendor of some variety, to top off your thirst levels, e.g.:

- An NPC that pours a bit of water into a dirty communal basin if you pay him: you could drink the water from the basin or, if you're wealthy, roleplay using it to polish up your signet ring and leave the water for someone else.

- In a poor Zalanthan neighborhood, a dirty entrepeneurial street kid might make a living selling the amassed dregs from a hundred mugs of ale he and his cohort recovered.  It's not "water" per se, but if you're dying of thirst, it's better than nothing.  And so on.


Random code ideas:

It would be cute if the 'spit <character>' social gave a message like:

Code Select Expand

You wouldn't really waste water like that, would you?

And with specific regard to some wilderness drinking spots:

It might be cool if you needed to have at least one hand free to drink from an object that was heavy enough (for instance, a barrel in the room, or a pool of water on the ground, etc).

It might also be cool if drinking from large objects had a 'before' delay to signify that you're ladelling from it, or drinking from your hands, or slurping it a bit at a time:

Code Select Expand


> drink puddle
You begin to drink from a puddle on the floor.
[delay...]
You finish drinking the water.
You are no longer thirsty.


It might also be cool if some wild water sources (like a pool of water in an oasis) required you to 'sit' to drink from, rendering you just a little bit more susceptible to being preyed upon.

Code Select Expand


> drink puddle
You'll need to be closer to the ground.  Try sitting.

> sit
You sit down.

> drink puddle
You begin to drink from a puddle on the floor.


[chrisdcoulombe]

I make my fresh roll ups buy water unless they are a thief of course, and then I try to wait for someone to show them the water sources or join a clan. 

[Eyeball]

Vivaduans should be a lot more prized and respected than they are. To the extent of gemmed Vivs being markedly more accepted in society than the other elementalist abominations.

[BadSkeelz]

If by "prized and respected" you mean "chained to posts and beaten with sticks so their tears can be used to fulfill your waterskin in a sort of Zalanthan water fountain," yeah, agreed.


On a more serious note, logically, yes, Vivaduans should be immensely valuable. But the magick hate among the population is very strong. Their magick might get you water, but most people don't feel like those means justify the end.

[rodic]

I always wonder what was up with water witches...
OR where Allanak seemingly get all that water to support it's population.

Despite the rare bodies of water able to be located in game.  I just always curious why... water scarcity isn't worked into the role play more.

I don't think water needs to be any more expensive or more scarce then it is for play-ability for that to happen...

Just seems odd that some documents say, it isn't unheard of for some one to be killed for their water... but you really don't see that often.  OOCly water isn't very scarce and I think that bleeds into character actions sadly, unintentionally. Why risk a character to get another characters water, when I just need to travel X rooms, or drop a few small?

Yes from a play stand point, it isn't too difficult to get water, but I feel as if ICly characters aren't respecting that scarcity as much as they realistically would.

That isn't a criticism, I just wish my characters waterskin where worth more, or if someone was coming to kill me, good chance its for my water.

To date, only been threatened over water once.  Kudo's to that player.

Again I don't think anything is wrong with the amount of water in game, I just wish there was a more nuanced role play around the scarcity of water, I feel as if water, would have a big cultural impact on a populace effectively city locked because of its scarcity.

[Eyeball]

If by "prized and respected" you mean "chained to posts and beaten with sticks so their tears can be used to fulfill your waterskin in a sort of Zalanthan water fountain," yeah, agreed.


On a more serious note, logically, yes, Vivaduans should be immensely valuable. But the magick hate among the population is very strong. Their magick might get you water, but most people don't feel like those means justify the end.

Thing is, Vivs save peoples' lives from time to time. After a while, when the people saved realize their skin isn't going to turn to scales or their hair fall out, it'd be pretty natural for them to start feeling some gratitude or appreciation. Their attitude (and their family's) toward Vivs would soften. Repeat often enough and society might moderate its hate for them.

[Riev]

So far as water scarcity, there  has to be some suspension of disbelief. Personally, I pine for the days when even the Byn had to go on excursions to fill a few barrels with water because nothing was free. "Free" water sources were constantly poisoned, or run dry, but this led to people who joined clans for "safety" dying off because they didn't log in when the barrels had water.

It would be more interesting, I think, if there were more echoes or staff animations of people literally being stabbed in a bar, because someone wanted water. Or some emaciated 'rinther walking up to someone in the Gaj and stabbing their waterskin, to drink anything that was left.

Its a fine line to walk. In game, water is precious. The value of obsidian coins is tied to water, those with a lot of coin (nobility) typically have access to the best/most water, because water is life. Playability wise, too many new players were dying, and even experienced but low-playtime people would die because water was not available. I would like to go back to those times, but I can see how a carefully worked concept dying because you are off-peak is a load of inix poop.

[Centurion]

A little bit of a necro...

Id like to see free water removed from clans, and alot of food programs as well. But, add more natural water resources in the game. Allow cooks to have a real purpose in clans, and Tenneshi to be utilised more and the Vivaduans the best friend you hate.

When do clan accounts ever get low? Maybe it might stop some lazy play as food and water are limitless in clans, and people might have a stronger need to do business in clans to keep up money, and not just wait for the account to get cleaned out when it reaches a limit. Also, we might not see fifty pieces of gortok and scrab meat in every clan hall, sitting there wasting away.

[Barsook]

I agree about the free water and food in clans.  It's removing all of the fun roleplaying and also like you said, creating that backlog of meat in the mess halls of clans.  But there should be still rules on when a clan needs the free food and water.   Someone talked here talked about those rules somewhere...

[Centurion]

Maybe still not free, but within a clan estate, instead of there being an npc with a script for free food, have an npc vendor that sells the food? Sometimes clans might not have cooks, so that will still cover being able to feed pcs. Just add the water seller script npc sellers as well. Though id still like to see the PC water sellers get some love. Food for thought.

[Barsook]

I would rather see PC water/food (uncooked and cooked) sellers too since the player econ is very poor.

I also like your idea.

[Delirium]

One thing that would solve the "but we have 829743298 pieces of meat laying around' problem is a script to enable you to give containers of food items to the clan cook, much like the spice/dung/salt merchants, and they'd kick you a little extra for helping them out. So anything edible goes to the cooks.

1-3 obsidian per meat item, depending on its innate value - so not much, but you could get rid of it in bulk.

Then they're virtually feeding the clan populace, meat isn't piled on the tables, and you get a bit of a kickback. Everyone wins.

[Quell]

Oh! Or you could make cooks into tool objects that give +gazillion to your cook skill when you use it in the same room as them (like an oven or a room bonus).

[MeTekillot]

I do not wish to relive the days of the Byn where the Runners would die of dehydration because nobody could organize a time to fill the water tun.

[Down Under]

I'd rather see the focus of plots be murder, corruption, and betrayal, than a Sims-esque hunt for food and water at every possible moment, because your PC's life literally depends on it.

There's a balance between realism and playability. Indies definitely have to deal with the struggle of no free lunches, but it's assumed that joining a Clan provides food, water, and shelter for you, and base pay.

[wizturbo]

I'm also not a fan of stripping clans of their food/water.  Coded clans have reached a level of prosperity where their employees do not risk hunger or dehydration while in their various bases of operation.  While it's certainly someone's job to make sure everyone has food and water, I'd rather leave those logistics to the VNPC population.  Adding getting food and water for your clan as another item on the list of sponsored roles responsibilities doesn't sound appealing at all to me.

I would just encourage people to place a realistic value on water and food, as a means of fortifying the virtual larder of the clan.  Clan leaders should reward hunters or scavengers who bring back food and water, as though they brought back any other  materials of equal value.

[Barzalene]

Can I be honest? I wish that the stuff that gets hunted and gathered would just disappear every couple of months, unless you went to some trouble to keep it from doing so. Then all the compounds would not be filled with stuff and people would have a reason to go out and get more stuff.

[deathkamon]

Hey guys, you know what I'm thinking? If sorcerers needed to water an area which is defiled in order to make the land "neutral"... Someone would think that either Tek had a bunch of Vivanduans as his apprentices who would water the land for Tek. Either that or maybe that whole place that's South of the Shield Wall was actually filled with water. Perhaps other sorcerers living in seclusion may have a Vivanduan with him/her so it'll be easier to get water because the Vivanduans don't need to defile at all.

Just my two 'sids right there.

[nauta]

Can I be honest? I wish that the stuff that gets hunted and gathered would just disappear every couple of months, unless you went to some trouble to keep it from doing so. Then all the compounds would not be filled with stuff and people would have a reason to go out and get more stuff.

+1

Oh, yeah, when I join a clan the first thing I do is junk all the stuff.  (Not really, but sometimes I wish.)

[CodeMaster]

A veteran player (Gimfalisette I believe) pointed out to me how arduous it is to keep underlings watered, so I'd lean toward not stripping all clans of their simple water sources.  wizturbo's comments are good.

It would be cool if lower class clans only had access to 'grey water' ... unless it's significantly worse at quenching thirst (maybe it shouldn't be?).  An underutilized liquid type in my opinion.  A higher prevalence of dirty water in the game would underscore the value and rarity pure, clean water has.

Edited by Bcw81: Please make sure to spell other user's names correctly.

[Riev]

I'm down for the use of different water types. Very few people will buy the grey water when, in other areas, the regular water is just as cheap if not cheaper.

I'd rather water tuns refill SLOWER than they do, but allow them to still refill. No, Bynners dying because of no water isn't fun, but "The tun is getting low" should still be an issue if you're in a big swing"

[wizturbo]

Totally agree with the grey water comments.  Only high-class clans should have pure clean water for their clan members.

[Patuk]

If clans stop having actual water, I'm going to stop bothering with clans altogether. I can say without exaggerating that I have been in clans where I didn't see clannies for weeks on end. Removing free water would make anyone not from America unable to effectively play in a clan.

[Darmon]

Yeah you can't remove water from clans. What everyone has been saying, I am part of Byn one of the largest clans I am guessing. Still see stretches where I log and don't see anyone. Removing water, maybe even limiting just wouldn't work. Now I am all for limiting things that are non-essential to help the player economy.

[Down Under]

I agree it would be cool if the only -kind- of water you could get was grey water, unless you were a Noble or Templar.

[nauta]

What's grey water?

[BadSkeelz]

Lower-quality water. You can find it in various places in game.

[wizturbo]

I agree it would be cool if the only -kind- of water you could get was grey water, unless you were a Noble or Templar.

I wouldn't go that far.  Non-nobles can buy wine, it'd be stupid if they couldn't buy clean water as well...just have it cost more, like it already does in most cases now.

[aeglaeca]

I find it sort of interesting that grey water is for sale anywhere. It seems sand and charcoal are readily available (at least, charcoal should be in the north) and that making a makeshift water filter would be a common thing to do.

[Malken]

Really hard to find in the wastes, though.

lol, no.

[RogueGunslinger]

Grey water IS sand-filtered water. That perfecly clear reverse osmosis shit? That's magickly made or filtered through miles of rock and sediment. Essentially spring-water.

[Fujikoma]

I think it would be neat if some ancient source of mystical technology could be fond that dehydrates corpses and pours out the water.

[MeTekillot]

Make Vivaduans only able to draw water out of corpses instead of poofing it up.

[Fujikoma]

Make Vivaduans only able to draw water out of corpses instead of poofing it up.

Or poop.

Somewhere, deep in the sewers, a sinister cabal of rogue mages plans to supply Allanak with poo-water.

[Cabooze]

Revamp water?


Dark-grey water or sandy-brown water. Replace some of the local free watering holes out there with the type. Make it reduce thirst only slightly to represent its lack of quality.

Make grey water the norm that water traders give you. It would also be the norm for lower-level Houses (Be it Merchant or Surif). It would reduce thirst more than dark-grey (or sandy-brown) water but it's still quite lacking.

Clean water is reserved for higher-class Surif houses and in the richer times of Merchant Houses. It can also be found if you know what you're doing. Or you're buddies with a witch or you are one. It's probably the best and most refreshing water, unless there's some sort of enchanted water somewhere.... *crosses fingers*



This would greatly revitalize the rarity and significance of water. Because face it: It's too easy to get and it's not something you struggle for at mostly any point in time. Unless you're 100% new and you're still learning the game.

[wizturbo]

I don't quite understand the mindset that water should be difficult/rare to get as a PC.  To me, it seems more like a virtual concern that's meant to augment role play and the flavor of the world...rather than hinder the playability of PCs. 

The only thing I could see making water more scarce could do is improve the demand for Vivaduans...which frankly I think are demanded more for their healing than their water these days, which is unfortunate because I'd love to see the dynamic of Vivaduans being those types you need, even if you don't like it.

[CodeMaster]

Dark-grey water or sandy-brown water. Replace some of the local free watering holes out there with the type. Make it reduce thirst only slightly to represent its lack of quality.

Make grey water the norm that water traders give you. It would also be the norm for lower-level Houses (Be it Merchant or Surif). It would reduce thirst more than dark-grey (or sandy-brown) water but it's still quite lacking.

I'm all for the dirtying of "free" water (of just about any variety - the stuff you find outdoors, the stuff you find in the barrel in the Byn barracks which should by all accounts have hair and teeth floating around in it).

But I don't think there should be a drastic difference.  First, is it realistic that there would be a drastic difference?  It's still 99.2% water, after all.  Moreover, if there were a drastic difference, clan leaders would have to compensate and have their underlings carry around more waterskins (more OOC logistics to deal with).

[Cabooze]

 Moreover, if there were a drastic difference, clan leaders would have to compensate and have their underlings carry around more waterskins (more OOC logistics to deal with).

But wouldn't that be more realistic if it was changed like that? Have one (or two) P(eople)erson be your water mule. Have enough water for everyone in the group. A support type.

[MeTekillot]

A liability, you mean?

[CodeMaster]

Dark-grey water or sandy-brown water. Replace some of the local free watering holes out there with the type. Make it reduce thirst only slightly to represent its lack of quality.

Make grey water the norm that water traders give you. It would also be the norm for lower-level Houses (Be it Merchant or Surif). It would reduce thirst more than dark-grey (or sandy-brown) water but it's still quite lacking.

I'm all for the dirtying of "free" water (of just about any variety - the stuff you find outdoors, the stuff you find in the barrel in the Byn barracks which should by all accounts have hair and teeth floating around in it).

But I don't think there should be a drastic difference.  First, is it realistic that there would be a drastic difference?  It's still 99.2% water, after all.  Moreover, if there were a drastic difference, clan leaders would have to compensate and have their underlings carry around more waterskins (more OOC logistics to deal with).

But wouldn't that be more realistic? Have one (or two) P(eople)erson be your water mule. Have enough water for everyone in the group. A support type.

Yeah.  And this used to be my thinking too -- that water should be this huge logistical issue that you should have to deal with ... that the people in clans should actually have to work to keep their water supply filled, etc.  I still think that would be cool, and it would be cool if there were at least one clan that was concerned with day-to-day survival...

But it was explained to me that, if you're a sergeant and you've got four underlings, most of them new to the game, and you have to organize to get one of them to be the water mule before you can leave the gates, the sun's going to be setting before you know it.

[Cabooze]

Dark-grey water or sandy-brown water. Replace some of the local free watering holes out there with the type. Make it reduce thirst only slightly to represent its lack of quality.

Make grey water the norm that water traders give you. It would also be the norm for lower-level Houses (Be it Merchant or Surif). It would reduce thirst more than dark-grey (or sandy-brown) water but it's still quite lacking.

I'm all for the dirtying of "free" water (of just about any variety - the stuff you find outdoors, the stuff you find in the barrel in the Byn barracks which should by all accounts have hair and teeth floating around in it).

But I don't think there should be a drastic difference.  First, is it realistic that there would be a drastic difference?  It's still 99.2% water, after all.  Moreover, if there were a drastic difference, clan leaders would have to compensate and have their underlings carry around more waterskins (more OOC logistics to deal with).

But wouldn't that be more realistic? Have one (or two) P(eople)erson be your water mule. Have enough water for everyone in the group. A support type.

Yeah.  And this used to be my thinking too -- that water should be this huge logistical issue that you should have to deal with ... that the people in clans should actually have to work to keep their water supply filled, etc.  I still think that would be cool, and it would be cool if there were at least one clan that was concerned with day-to-day survival...

But it was explained to me that, if you're a sergeant and you've got four underlings, most of them new to the game, and you have to organize to get one of them to be the water mule before you can leave the gates, the sun's going to be setting before you know it.

Just means you have to run training with them!
Go through drills, practice each person being the mule. Roleplay it out. People will learn OOC as their characters learn IC (As I have through similar sorts of training sessions, being informed about specific syntax).

[MeTekillot]

So what you want to do is create drills around preparing extra waterskins of water for a person who is filling one of your clan slots to carry water with you into the desert, when you didn't have to do this before, and this sounds like a good idea to you? The person in question is more vulnerable due to the fact they are carrying water instead of equipment, so you are also worrying about protecting them specifically as well, when you didn't have to do this before. Now I understand the concept of creating more stuff for players to do, but this particular idea doesn't seem like it holds much water, since the work/fun return seems pretty low.

[wizturbo]

While we're at it, I think in combat, there should be a chance that any of your waterskins or containers might be broken or pierced, causing your water to pour out.  This would be realistic, and make water that much more important....  It would also create new economic opportunities for people to design heavily armored water-carrying equipment to give you a bonus to avoid this.

Sounds awesome, right?!  Wait, there's more!

Backstab can prioritize waterskins instead of a target's vitals, allowing you to destroy their water much more often when using your stealthy attacks.  

Sap can similarly be used to burst open a waterskin or other water container, causing it to lose it's precious contents.

Steal may also be used to covertly siphon off your victim's water, insidiously stealing it for yourself without their knowledge...

Let the Water Wars begin!!!  Or we can just, let it be in the background of the story....please....

[Cabooze]

While we're at it, I think in combat, there should be a chance that any of your waterskins or containers might be broken or pierced, causing your water to pour out.  This would be realistic, and make water that much more important....  It would also create new economic opportunities for people to design heavily armored water-carrying equipment to give you a bonus to avoid this.

Sounds awesome, right?!  Wait, there's more!

Backstab will now prioritize waterskins instead of a target's vitals, allowing you to destroy their water much more often when using your stealthy attacks.  

Sap can similarly be used to burst open a waterskin or other water container, causing it to lose it's precious contents.

Steal may also be used to covertly siphon off your victim's water, insidiously stealing it for yourself without their knowledge...

Let the Water Wars begin!!!  Or we can just, let it be in the background of the story....please....

Lol!

So what you want to do is create drills around preparing extra waterskins of water for a person who is filling one of your clan slots to carry water with you into the desert, when you didn't have to do this before, and this sounds like a good idea to you? The person in question is more vulnerable due to the fact they are carrying water instead of equipment, so you are also worrying about protecting them specifically as well, when you didn't have to do this before. Now I understand the concept of creating more stuff for players to do, but this particular idea doesn't seem like it holds much water, since the work/fun return seems pretty low.

I feel like there's a lot of passive aggression in these posts that post.. Unless I am misinterpreting the emotion in your words?
Did I say something wrong?

[MeTekillot]

My post is trying to highlight the fact that your idea creates a whole lot of work while not creating any really interesting (in my opinion) roleplay or gameplay opportunities. Wizturbo, on the other hand, is taking the piss with you.

[wizturbo]

I feel like there's a lot of passive aggression in these posts.. Unless I am misinterpreting the emotion in your words?
Did I say something wrong?

Sarcasm in my case.  Not picking on you either Cabooze, I just think this whole "make water harder to get, less refreshing, etc." discussion is silly.  I'm all for doing things that change the flavor of the game (such as adding more grey-water, or murky water, or whatever), but anything that adds extra logistics or hassle for PCs seems silly to me.

[Cabooze]

I feel like there's a lot of passive aggression in these posts.. Unless I am misinterpreting the emotion in your words?
Did I say something wrong?

Sarcasm in my case.  Not picking on you either Cabooze, I just think this whole "make water harder to get, less refreshing, etc." discussion is silly.  I'm all for doing things that change the flavor of the game (such as adding more grey-water, or murky water, or whatever), but anything that adds extra logistics or hassle for PCs seems silly to me.

I understand, I corrected myself in my post when I read your edit.

[Fujikoma]

People who've been around during periods where water for clans was in finite supply urge against going back to it. I'd rather take their word, personally, than experience the kind of disaster I can see happening.

[Patuk]

I'm okay with water being made murkier in lots of cases, but CodeMaster is right in saying that water doesn't magically get more nourishing if you filter out trace bits of dirt. It might get magically more nourishing if you magically conjure it, but that's hardly the issue.

[Hot_Dancer]

The old 'fill the water barrel runs' were in a day before local springs/water sources were 'updated' by current code/staff/events.

It would be much more difficult if we reverted back - the same resources are not available.

[Eyeball]

The old 'fill the water barrel runs' were in a day before local springs/water sources were 'updated' by current code/staff/events.

It would be much more difficult if we reverted back - the same resources are not available.

Also, back in the day, characters would never get thirsty if they stayed indoors all of the time. They need more water these days than before, because thirst builds even while indoors.

[Barzalene]

I know it will never happen and it's not worth the trouble to code, but I wish you could pay for everything in either coin or water.

[BadSkeelz]

I wonder if "A jar of warm spit" has greater or lesser value in Zalanthas than in real life.

[Molten Heart]

n/m

[Jeax]

Water is interesting. I do agree that it's not terribly hard to get to, there is nowhere in the Known I can think of that I'd go that I wouldn't (OOCly) know how to have access to some free water.

However, that's because I've played characters all over the map and done a substantial amount of exploration.

The RP element that someone brought up is absolutely spot on. I flip flop back and forth on this, but I have taken to sometimes I play a character that "doesn't know" where the water holes are, even if they are an explorer. This not only adds realistic RP, but it also makes the water situation more real. Of course, if my character is going to die, might I just "find" a water hole? Perhaps Depends how attached I am to the character.

Yet, I do agree with the sentiment that if you have a character that works at all, making sure you have water to drink is not really a struggle if you're in a city. Then again, I don't know that it should be.

I think what might be interesting is if there was an extended HRPT/event of sorts of a drought/water shortage THEN people would start killing for water, and keeling over dead due to its lack. Or making really strange deals for some. That would be pretty cool.

[AdamBlue]

I want to see a Viv and a Rukkian team up somewhere ad create just a super huge oasis of water, almost a lake just out in the middle of nowhere, with a massive sandstone ceiling overtop of it, with trees and plants growing across the top of it to absorb the sunlight and produce fruit, with their roots trailing down into the water to stay hydrated. Basically, an extremely small garden of eden.

And I'd like to stumble upon this glowing oasis of water and be like, 'I am tripping balls, right?'

[Jihelu]

I want to see a Viv and a Rukkian team up somewhere ad create just a super huge oasis of water, almost a lake just out in the middle of nowhere, with a massive sandstone ceiling overtop of it, with trees and plants growing across the top of it to absorb the sunlight and produce fruit, with their roots trailing down into the water to stay hydrated. Basically, an extremely small garden of eden.

And I'd like to stumble upon this glowing oasis of water and be like, 'I am tripping balls, right?'

It would be good up until you realize magic then you can go "BACK DEMONS" And forbid that water!
Or atleast thats what I've gotten from peoples reaction to Viv's.
People should like the water spewing mages more.

[CodeMaster]

People should like the water spewing mages more.

I'm no authority on the topic.  But should they?  Magick (specifically sorcery, but who can tell the difference these days) is the reason the world is in such a blighted state in the first place.

It's conceivable Joe Commoner might view water magick as a kind of monkey's paw -- it'll quench his thirst for now, but perhaps by drinking it he'll be donating his life force to the mage that created it.  Or it might contain some kind of undetectable, deadly poison.  Who knows?

[Bast]

I'm currently of the belief that the only reason either of the cities have water is because of Viv's whether they let the public know about it or not.

[Jihelu]

People should like the water spewing mages more.

I'm no authority on the topic.  But should they?  Magick (specifically sorcery, but who can tell the difference these days) is the reason the world is in such a blighted state in the first place.

It's conceivable Joe Commoner might view water magick as a kind of monkey's paw -- it'll quench his thirst for now, but perhaps by drinking it he'll be donating his life force to the mage that created it.  Or it might contain some kind of undetectable, deadly poison.  Who knows?

I see it as two sides.
The standard "Magick is icky" side.
The "It could be poison it's icky" side.
(I lied there are more than two)
But I see your point. Then again, you could just do whats stated above and conspiracy theory that and possibly get more people to like the idea...or think you are stupid, probably the response.
If anything, I would see Viv magic as the 'magic that could make the world less shitty' and focus more of the hate on Krathis/sorcerers (Drainin the earth bruh), Nilazi, etc.

[Saellyn]

REally I think at least Vivs should at least be the mage you're willing to take with a grain of salt. The other guys, though, fuck that. Take a Krathi out hunting with you, what, so he can burn the goddamn game animal to a crisp? Blow you all up like BOOM!? Naaaaah.

[Barzalene]

I liked the drought idea. Suddenly vivs are popular. Drought ends and then does the tide turn?

[Saellyn]

Fluctuating ties? Sure sure. Some parts of the year, water is just scarce. Vivs are the only source (down south. Up north I dunno that would make much sense).

Maybe not the only source, but the price in the temple goes up and suddenly having a Viv fill your canteen or skin isn't such a bad notion. I really feel like a Viv should be the -least- hated of the mages. Perhaps, even, grudgingly accepted?

[whitt]

I liked the drought idea. Suddenly vivs are popular. Drought ends and then does the tide turn?

More likely Vivs are blamed.  Or Krathis.  Or both!

Once the drought kicks in, the populace is riled up against the offending magickers, pushing them toward the Templarate and Nobility for protection.  These "haves" agree to protect the magickers, at the cost of indentured servitude for life, from the teeming masses.  In turn the Nobles and Templars have all the water, thereby increasing their comfort levels and control of the populace.

If only we knew who actually caused the drought and riled up the populace.

Wait.  This all sounds vaguely familiar already...

[Jihelu]

I liked the drought idea. Suddenly vivs are popular. Drought ends and then does the tide turn?

More likely Vivs are blamed.  Or Krathis.  Or both!

Once the drought kicks in, the populace is riled up against the offending magickers, pushing them toward the Templarate and Nobility for protection.  These "haves" agree to protect the magickers, at the cost of indentured servitude for life, from the teeming masses.  In turn the Nobles and Templars have all the water, thereby increasing their comfort levels and control of the populace.

If only we knew who actually caused the drought and riled up the populace.

Wait.  This all sounds vaguely familiar already...

Or maybe someone steps up and convinces people to have the magickers help them or some shit.

Unlikely.
But THERES A CHANCE!
Given the history they might just burn the temples down again. Rip.

[Aruven]

People should like the water spewing mages more.

I'm no authority on the topic.  But should they?  Magick (specifically sorcery, but who can tell the difference these days) is the reason the world is in such a blighted state in the first place.

It's conceivable Joe Commoner might view water magick as a kind of monkey's paw -- it'll quench his thirst for now, but perhaps by drinking it he'll be donating his life force to the mage that created it.  Or it might contain some kind of undetectable, deadly poison.  Who knows?

I see it as two sides.
The standard "Magick is icky" side.
The "It could be poison it's icky" side.
(I lied there are more than two)
But I see your point. Then again, you could just do whats stated above and conspiracy theory that and possibly get more people to like the idea...or think you are stupid, probably the response.
If anything, I would see Viv magic as the 'magic that could make the world less shitty' and focus more of the hate on Krathis/sorcerers (Drainin the earth bruh), Nilazi, etc.

This is interesting to me, this whole concept of people liking mages for their abilities.

I'll give you an example, every time shit goes down in allanak, NORMALLY, the mages in the city do massive amounts of work to protect people.

Those people then in turn use them as scapegoats over and over. Magickers don't get preferential treatment from anyone, especially nobility or templars.

After awhile, the whole concept is unrealistic to me, because after so many saving throws the mages are still just treated like shit. Why is this unrealistic? For two reasons.

Because 1 ; A population would have learned long ago to give some ground to mages because they are vital. (Lets think, I dont know, war with Tuluk. What can Mages help Allanak bring to the table that Tuluk cannot. Wow, that's a lot of devastating potential. )

And also, reason 2: A population of mages has long past that mark where they think 'hopefully doing good stuff gets a better opinion of us' because its been over and over and over that they suffer for it, no matter what templar or noble acts nice to them every so often. It doesn't matter how many times they save the known, or the city, or people, or heal people, or boost them up with spells. Everyone always has a shitty disposition towards mages.

Staying on topic : Generally people in game do like vivaduans compared to other elements. Their are (were?) entire cultures based around it. Then you have your more violent or chaotic elements that are always feared for what they are. People have mentioned a few on here.

[Barzalene]

Its fun to watch it all play out. I like that ultimately we return to the default, but I like the story arch all the same.

[MeTekillot]

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StatusQuoIsGod

[Aruven]

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StatusQuoIsGod

"although it is also the final stage of Exponential Plot Delay, the phenomenon in which the plot of a serial story has totally ground to a halt."

[Saellyn]

I just think, ICly, water mages should be employable by people with "less" scorn than others, because they really are the more helpful sorts.

If there were a way to code the well (in allanak) to require water mages to fill it, THAT would be stupendously cool.

[Jihelu]

I just think, ICly, water mages should be employable by people with "less" scorn than others, because they really are the more helpful sorts.

If there were a way to code the well (in allanak) to require water mages to fill it, THAT would be stupendously cool.

If that was the case, every now and then a noble or templar would probably just yell at the mage, not treat them any nicer, and move about their days.
Maybe commoners would like them more...
But eh, usefullness without liking the person.

[Delirium]

Water mages can be insanely deadly. I'm ok with them not being seen as the cuddly types.

[MeTekillot]

Every mage is deadly, really. I like that people think Vivaduans are squishy, because then you school them with two and a half spells and they don't see it coming.

[RogueGunslinger]

Yeah, every magicker has at least 1 spell to totally fuck up a mundane with.

[Barzalene]

Water mages can be insanely deadly. I'm ok with them not being seen as the cuddly types.

Yes, no matter what happens ic no one should ever lose track of that. But I wish there was more struggle between need and fear. Need without the fear would be boring and pointless. We have water sellers for that.

[Is Friday]

I could play another water mage if you guys need a reminder.

[Jihelu]

I could play another water mage if you guys need a reminder.

Aftermath:
Viv's are now a six karma class.