Game Permabans for GDB behavior alone = wrong?

[Marauder Moe]

Perhaps more importantly than protecting players, you must realize that it's the staff who must deal with a person in both the GDB and the game.

If you own two convenience stores and someone comes in and takes a dump in the isle of one of them, is it really so unreasonable to ban them from the other store as well?

[Desertman]

So long as their behavior in game and in private staff communications is not abusive and/or against game policies, yes, it is unreasonable. Being a GDB dick and/or abuser is of course not commendable, and subject to full enforcement of a GDB ban. It has nothing to do with the game, unless the player brings it into the game. If they do, then by all means, ban them from the game.

[Marauder Moe]

Except there's two things unavoidably in common between those situations: the player and the staff.

So let me amend my analogy a bit, since the game and the GDB aren't the same thing.  Say it's a convenience store and a dry cleaning business.

You come into the convenience store drunk a few times, yell at the clerk or customers, etc, and they tell you to GTFO.  Annoying, but indeed you're not likely to drop off dry cleaning drunk and there's fewer opportunities to be an ass there, so they just ban you from the store.

But if you take a dump in the isle or start harassing employees/owners because they kicked you out for being a drunk asshole, it's not reasonable to expect those same people to smile and clean your clothes just because you never did anything in the dry cleaning shop.

[Desertman]

Except there's two things unavoidably in common between those situations: the player and the staff.

So let me amend my analogy a bit, since the game and the GDB aren't the same thing.  Say it's a convenience store and a dry cleaning business.

You come into the convenience store drunk a few times, yell at the clerk or customers, etc, and they tell you to GTFO.  Annoying, but indeed you're not likely to drop off dry cleaning drunk and there's fewer opportunities to be an ass there, so they just ban you from the store.

But if you take a dump in the isle or start harassing employees/owners because they kicked you out for being a drunk asshole, it's not reasonable to expect those same people to smile and clean your clothes just because you never did anything in the dry cleaning shop.

They aren't the same.

If the person is a dick on the GDB, but isn't a dick in staff/player communications and doesn't break any game rules, they should not be banned from the game. If they are a dick in staff/player communications outside of the GDB and break rules in that regard, and/or do break game rules while in game, then ban them from the game.

You don't have to like them on a personal level to allow them to continue to play the game. In fact I'm sure you won't. But, so long as their presence in the game isn't affecting the game negatively, or the staff negatively, then be the adult, put your personal quarrel regarding their GDB behavior aside, and let them contribute to the game.

[Marauder Moe]

Again, I'm not saying a GDB ban should automatically be a game ban.

But I'm saying that if you are offensive enough on the GDB, I think it's fair for the staff to have the option to not deal with you again in any capacity.

[Desertman]

Again, I'm not saying a GDB ban should automatically be a game ban.

But I'm saying that if you are offensive enough on the GDB, I think it's fair for the staff to have the option to not deal with you again in any capacity.

Ban them from the GDB. If they attempt to circumvent that ban, then the ban hasn't worked, and ban them from the game all together. If you ban them from the GDB and never get another bad word out of them, the ban worked, and no further action is needed.

If you go beyond that, then you are no longer following a policy and you are following a subjective rating system of, "How bad did this person hurt my personal feelings.".

I would make an exception for concrete issues. For example, if a person threatens a staff member or another player openly, that is worth a ban on every front. Outside of threats, the only real harm is, "my feelings were hurt", and a GDB ban should ensure that never happens again. If it doesn't and they continue to harass people through the game or through the request tool/other means of communication, then the GDB ban didn't work, and further measures should be taken.

[Reiloth]

It's unlikely someone is going to be a huge dick on the GDB, and not a bit of a dick in the Game Sense.

Possible, sure, but not likely. We aren't operating in a vacuum, and I doubt someone will be perm-banned from the game based on their GDB personality alone. All these 'stories' you hear from people are more complicated than they seem.

At work we regularly get complaints about our repair department that are so unbelievably one-sided and bleeding heart and woe-is-me, that they are laughable and we just throw them away. Legitimate complaints do come through, and are considered seriously, but I know that we as players often commiserate and exaggerate to garner attention from each other, and then we white knight for each other. And it's only one side of the story, and we as humans have difficulty seeing our part in things, especially if we are actively trying to point the finger at someone else.

I think MM's analogies are appropriate -- GDB behavior definitely reflects on your game account. I have had roles denied before for my GDB behavior, which was definitely warranted. Staff are human too, and can't necessarily separate one personality from the other. It's just a good lesson to not be a troll/dink/turd on the GDB, especially if you want to have a good rapport with Staff.

[Patuk]

If we're going to ban people for dickish behavior, we're going to end up with an empty game. It's a dumb argument concerning game bans.

[Harmless]

Yeah, I'm with Patuk and Desertman. Desertman's post on page 1 about his own story is basically why I agree with it. I'm really glad their policy is the way it is, with giving people that chance to respect their GDB ban but continue to enjoy the game, because now we all benefit by having Desertman back with us.

[Nyr]

Game Permabans for GDB behavior alone = never happened.

We have not banned anyone on the game for their GDB behavior alone, unless that behavior includes circumventing GDB bans to engage in more of that wonderful display of GDB behavior.

We'd also consider the request tool part of the game (before that, e-mail) so being a dick in the request tool (or via e-mail) isn't a good idea if you want to play the game.

[Reiloth]

If we're going to ban people for dickish behavior, we're going to end up with an empty game. It's a dumb argument concerning game bans.

Why?

I mean people are entitled to their opinions, and they should share them, but that doesn't mean a lot of huge dicks play our game.

Only got a few huge dicks around here.

Dicks.

[Patuk]

Because being a dick has nothing to do with the rules at all. It gives people carte blanche to ban others for reasons that are by definition subjective.

[Reiloth]

Well it depends on your definition of dick.

I'm referring to people breaking the rules, or thumbing their nose at them, and circumventing GDB bans, or otherwise making Staff's life difficult.

You can have incendiary opinion (Like RGS, or you actually, or myself sometimes) and not be a 'dick' per se.

[Marauder Moe]

Interpreting free form prose is subjective by necessity.  Flaming, IC secrets, PM abuse, derailing... none of those rules can be evaluated objectively.

[Patuk]

Certainly it is. That still is no reason to go overboard with it.

[wizturbo]

It seems completely natural and reasonable for repeated, terrible behavior on any channel potentially leading to a game ban.  How could it be any other way?  How can one part of the internet be sacred and untouchable, despite your behavior on another part?

[Desertman]

It seems completely natural and reasonable for repeated, terrible behavior on any channel potentially leading to a game ban.  How could it be any other way?  How can one part of the internet be sacred and untouchable, despite your behavior on another part?

If the behavior is "repeated", meaning they are either banned, and then unbanned, repeatedly, or are banned and then find a way around the ban, then that is a different issue.

If the behavior in question, GDB behavior, is blocked (meaning a GDB ban), it can't be "repeated" unless the offender is unbanned by staff, or they break more/other/more severe rules, and that is a different issue.

[Fathi]

I don't think anyone is saying that everyone who's a dick on the GDB should be banned from the game. Or even 99% of people.

My original reply was basically meant to say, boiled down, that I am okay with the option being available for particularly egregious behaviour.

A short list of what I consider behaviour egregious enough:
    - Repeated IP spoofing to get around bans
    - Doxxing community members or posting their personal info without their consent
    - Stalking & harassment of players/staff
    - Posting stuff that violates our webhost/SMF's TOS or is particularly terrible (i.e. kiddie porn)

And heck, even then I could only think of one person in my nearly 9 years of playing who fit the bill.

Regarding most of the behaviours I'd take an issue with (apart from the obviously illegal/reprehensible shit like CP), I see it like this: if you repeatedly try to sneak around a ban to harass members of this community, I don't trust your ability to separate IC from OOC and follow the rules of the game, since you've already shown pretty poor judgment.

Plus I think we have to have some sympathy for our own playerbase here. The individual I was referring to in my posts said some really hateful/threatening shit about people who play here. If I were an individual named in those hateful posts, I'd feel pretty shitty if that person was allowed to keep playing after they snuck around bans just to keep harassing me.

I guess in the end it comes down to what you consider just dumb/trolling/angry behaviour vs. what is actually damaging, dangerous, and hurtful. Any internet community has to deal with the former but I'd like to think our staff have a zero tolerance policy for the latter. So I'm fine with staff reserving the right to ban people from the game for it.