Game Permabans for GDB behavior alone = wrong?

[Harmless]

The subject really does say it all, but I'll elaborate.

It was brought to my attention that someone who was told they have "no bad in-game behavior" (paraphrasing from staff reply to an appeal request) was receiving a PERMANENT game ban for GDB behavior.

Points:

1.) There is nothing wrong with a permanent GDB ban, or a permanent GDB IP-address ban. I think, in fact, this is likely one of the best things the staff can do to keep someone from digging their own grave -- some people are excellent players and terrible on the GDB. I'm not going to even begin debating that; this post is about a permanent GAME ban.
2.) A permanent game ban doesn't feel appropriate as a punishment for GDB actions if there was no in-game behavior to justify it (to me). Putting someone's ability to enjoy the game on hold temporary at least gives them the reassurance that time and  good behavior will lead to the return of their precious Crackageddon.
3.) RPI players are a niche, and should not be scared away; this is an excellent point someone in RAT made. Putting someone under the duress of a game ban will "raise the stakes" of their feud with staff and GDB to the point that they will start a cycle of self-doubt ("if I request to appeal my game ban and it is denied, will I ever be allowed back or will I need to wait for a staffing change?") I just don't think it's appropriate to use a permanent game ban on our playerbase.
4.) Regarding this post: I think it is completely and totally ethical and justified for something that should "better be brought up in a request," which is a matter of staff opinion (and policy, because staff do have the right to make the rules), to instead/also be brought up in a GDB post. Consider this post a "petition" without official signatures, a request for open discussion of what I feel is a serious problem in current staffing policy. Consider this "whistleblowing" if you want. By making this post myself I am helping someone else, yes. But regardless of who they are, I think that getting a permanent game ban, when the staff admit openly there was no behavior in game to justify it, is never okay. However, I did ask the person in question to file a request -- and understood when they said they weren't comfortable doing so because their ability to play the game was now on the line. It never should have been on the line.

Comments:

A.) There are some people who are terrible with their PR and professionalism skills. If someone has such this flaw and displays it consistently, I agree it is alright to keep them from offending and hurting others in the GDB, even permanently. But in the "escalation of punishments," a PERManent game ban should never be used. Never. In my opinion.
B.) I am not trying to "rabble-rouse," or create "GDB drama." I am making a public appeal. That is what this post is. I really hope that this doesn't "count negatively towards my record" but I am not going to be silenced out of discussing this specific, single point (game bans for GDB behavior = wrong) just because I have my own desire to be seen positively by staff. I sincerely hope that the staff's opinion of ME isn't changed by me making this single post.
B.1.) This thread has nothing to do with any one specific staffer. Just as I am asking people not to name players' names below, it is equally inappropriate to name any one staffer here. It doesn't apply to the subject line, so I ask that you not do it. If a staffer did this, then a staffer did it. That's enough.
C.) The game is precious. The in-game experience is 80% of everything armageddon is. I love this game, and I know that even someone who seems completely crass and ridiculously rude in the GDB has the ability to love the GAME itself too. That love is obvious to me because I have the benefit of still hearing this person's voice.
d.) Disclaimers: I am going to be completely busy for the next 12-14 hours and will be unable to make any replies to this post in that time, but when I get back I will be happy to make this into a discussion (hence the general discussion new topic). I wanted people to have a chance to throw their opinions in on whether or not they thing a PERManent game ban for GDB behavior is wrong or not. I hope this thread isn't moderated, because as far as I know I'm not breaking the rules by making this point. I acknowledged that a request is a good idea and asked the banned party to file one but I understand why they will not currently because I know in my heart that they are being unduly put through stress and pressure by their PERManent game ban. This thread is not about temporary game bans or permanent GDB bans. Keep it civil. Don't name names of players, staff, or GDB handles, even if you know who is being discussed (a lot of people here have a knee-jerk reaction to posts like these to name a name). I know a lot of you will know who is being discussed here IMMEDIATELY. Let's talk about the mere fact of a permanent game ban over GDB behavior and whether or not you feel this is one specific staff action that is right or wrong. You CAN discuss whether or not "appeal threads" like this one are fair or not, but I really hope that this thread is maintained alive for at least long enough for me to view some replies by this late afternoon and make a few replies myself. I don't mind if individual posts in this thread become moderated, or even edited, by helpers and staff, because inevitably people will NOT be civil and will need to be moderated for it.

[Nyr]

1)  Agreed.
2)  Staff have to deal with players in many respects--not just on the GDB, but in the request tool, via e-mail, and in-game.  If your conduct as a player towards staff or other players in any medium is bad enough (and especially if it is bad enough for long enough), staff may well ban your game account for it.  It is not something done arbitrarily, and we hardly jump straight to a game ban as the first course of action in responding to a player's actions.  It may suck to hear it, but playing here is not a right, and actions have consequences.
3)  Agreed to an extent, but just being an RPI player does not make a player immune to the consequences of their behavior.
4)  Not only would it be better for this to be brought up in a request, that's also the only way this will ever get addressed for a specific player; it's not a matter of staff opinion but a matter of policy that we're in discussion on at this time.

Adhira mentioned that we were discussing that earlier, that we'd not bring up player account related issues on the GDB.  That has been done before a few times.  Even if brought up by players first each time, it doesn't really serve a purpose for us to provide context to someone's claims about their account or how they were treated by staff.  It never ends well, it looks more vindictive than intended (providing a defense against someone's accusations they chose to make public), and it just drags everyone else down.  However, since we're going to be looking at a specific policy on that, I don't know how we can address your point here at all because it cuts both ways. 

We can't and won't discuss someone else's account issues with you.  Not here, not via request, not via e-mail.  That's between them and us.

A)  Disagreed, sorry.
B)  Understood, but we do not accept public appeals for other people's account issues because you are not privy to all of the details, nor are we privy to explain them.
C)  Without knowing who you are referring to there is no way we can discuss this.  Also, see point B, we don't really want to know who you are referring to here, nor do we want to discuss that with you.
D)  Actions have consequences; if someone gets banned from the game, it did not happen in a vacuum.

[valeria]

It was brought to my attention that someone who was told they have "no bad in-game behavior" (paraphrasing from staff reply to an appeal request) was receiving a PERMANENT game ban for GDB behavior.

I've been told a similar thing by a person in the past and later discovered that the person actually was engaging in poor in-game behavior (in that case, communicating a bunch of IC info OOCly, and they probably weren't even banned but decided to ragequit after staff came down on them).

I'm not saying that's what happened here, but I'm saying that I suspect the person, or the person who told you, had a lot of self-interest and did not give all of the details or at best only gave one side of the story.

[Fathi]

If staff can't ban people from the game due to behaviour on the GDB, what would you propose they do in the cases of people who repeatedly circumvent GDB IP bans?

A few years ago, someone who had a succession of very public meltdowns on this forum kept coming back to have another go, presumably using a VPN or whatnot. The meltdowns weren't just "f u I quit," there was some seriously alarming shit about self-harm, suicide threats, lashing out at other players, etc.

Should people who do shit like that be allowed to keep playing?

If someone's shown that much dedication to harassing our playerbase on the GDB, I don't want 'em near our playerbase in the game either.

[Desertman]

If they repeatedly circumvent their GDB ban, it is obvious their GDB ban isn't working.

Then ban them entirely.

Otherwise, just ban them from the GDB and move on and so long as they continue to perform well in the game, without trying to hack/sneak back into the GDB they are banned from...let it go.

If the issue is, "They have a bad GDB personality.", but they are great players, and they don't try to get around their GDB ban....only the game loses by banning them from the game.

I was banned from the GDB for years and I was still allowed to play the game. I never abused the game. Here I am today.

If I had been banned entirely, that might not be the case.

[Harmless]

Thanks for your replies all.

Nyr: The question that comes from your response to my point #2 is: "What is 'bad enough?' What is 'long enough?'" Do you think it'd make any difference in behavior if there was a regularized escalation of bans, like the below:

Scale of punishments for GDB offenses:

2 weeks GDB ban
4 weeks GDB ban
permanent GDB ban.

If GDB ban is circumvented:
1 month game ban + IP ban

if GDB ban+IP ban is again circumvented:
1 year game ban + keeping the GDB/IP ban

If GDB ban+IP ban is AGAIN circumvented, permanent ban.

If that scale were followed strictly to show that it were going to be enforced no matter what, and players saw that 1 year long ban given and strictly enforced (no appeals), then do you think there would be a change?

Valeria: Good point, I don't know all the specifics at all.. but Nyr's response tells me that there need not be poor in game behavior to merit a game ban. I think that as long as this is something players know is a possible punishment then policy is policy.

Fathi: For whatever reason, I disagree with the notion that bad GDB actors need to be banned from the game. Maybe I haven't interacted with them in the game enough to get the sense that they also deserve a game ban, but then again, how would I -ever- know who the bad GDB actors are in game (I strictly avoid current PC info sharing, and almost never engage in chats with other players about who they have played in the past in game; i.e. I hate sharing 'PC lists.'). Maybe you've had the experience of knowing which PC some of our infamous bad GDB actors play, but I never have, so we'll just have to agree to disagree due to my lack of that experience.

As for what other options there are... that's a damn good question. I would try asking them, "What do you want?" If they ask for something unreasonable, I'd say, "We can't give you that, because it's not our policy to (for example, fire staff) based on a single player's complaint. If you can't give us a reasonable request, then we'll have to start banning you from the game. Please think about what it is you want from us or else we will ban you from the game." If they insist on making the community their enemy, then I think at that point the game ban is called for. After all, if they're essentially declaring war on the whole community, what enjoyment could they possibly be getting from the game? That is a huge contradiction.

So I guess what I'm saying Fathi is I have no better answer. I found the notion of a game ban due to GDB behavior to be bad, but I also understand it. It's also case-by-case. It's also just depressing and I wish that people wouldn't take it upon themselves to declare war against a whole game and community, to me that's just pointless.



D-man: Thanks so much for sharing your story here. By never trying to circumvent your GDB ban, you basically did what I would consider best as well, and look! You're here, you're one of our active and respected community members and players, and you're obviously no longer in the mindset to continue doing whatever it was that got you a permanent GDB ban. You're a success story.

But I don't want to kiss your ass. That doesn't get us anywhere closer to understanding why you're a success and why some people have failed at the test of "sustain a permanent GDB ban and simply play the game."

I would love it if you could elaborate as much as possible on why you succeeded overcoming whatever it was, but you also have no obligation to do so if it's too personal.

Questions for you:

1.) Was it something that changed about you that led you to not needing to be permanently GDB-banned anymore? Or was it something that changed about the game, or the community, in your opinion?

 a.) What was it that changed about either you, the game, or the community? HOW did that change happen?

Maybe you'll have some useful advice. Maybe your advice won't be useful for the reason that whoever is banned doesn't respect you. I know that -I- respect your opinions but sadly, the state of hating the game often spreads to hating some of the community too, and therefore your advice, while it might be useful, might not be heeded. All the same, -I- want to hear it. Maybe what you say could be reworded by me and together we can work out some take-home points for troublemakers.


Thanks again all

[chrisdcoulombe]

[Marauder Moe]

I don't think anyone is saying that a GDB ban should automatically be a game ban.

I think people are saying that if you commit enough of an offense on the GDB, you could be banned from the game as well.  I, for one, am fine with that.  I really doubt that someone who was a big enough asshole on the GDB to merit a game ban was truly a valuable/harmless player.

[Nyr]

Thanks for your replies all.

Nyr: The question that comes from your response to my point #2 is: "What is 'bad enough?' What is 'long enough?'" Do you think it'd make any difference in behavior if there was a regularized escalation of bans, like the below:

Scale of punishments for GDB offenses:

2 weeks GDB ban
4 weeks GDB ban
permanent GDB ban.

We already have that.  It is in the rules for the GDB.

First offense - 1 week ban
Second offense - 2 week ban
Third offense - Month ban

After that we reserve the right to either close that account or shut down their access to the gdb entirely.

We have permanently banned at least a few people from the GDB, and that acted as their only action against their account.

If GDB ban is circumvented:
1 month game ban + IP ban

if GDB ban+IP ban is again circumvented:
1 year game ban + keeping the GDB/IP ban

If GDB ban+IP ban is AGAIN circumvented, permanent ban.

If players are circumventing a GDB ban...then they are disregarding the rules of the board, disrespecting staff that have enforced them, and (likely) continuing to antagonize other players (or staff), which got them the GDB ban in the first place.  We will ban them from the game if we think it is appropriate and communicate that to them.  What happens from there depends on the player.

If that scale were followed strictly to show that it were going to be enforced no matter what, and players saw that 1 year long ban given and strictly enforced (no appeals), then do you think there would be a change?

No.  

I don't think we need to set rules for players, then set rules for players that circumvent their punishment for breaking the rules, then set rules for players that continue to circumvent their punishment for breaking the rules.  Why would we do that?  The player has already shown they don't care about the rules.

We have never banned someone from the game that was just a "bad GDB actor".  That means someone that only did bad stuff on the GDB, then got banned there 3-4 times to the point where it became a permanent ban, and then they actually didn't try to get around that GDB ban to do more of whatever it was that got them banned.

[Harmless]

Gotcha Nyr. Thanks for spelling all of that out for us.

[Desertman]

I would love it if you could elaborate as much as possible on why you succeeded overcoming whatever it was, but you also have no obligation to do so if it's too personal.

Questions for you:

1.) Was it something that changed about you that led you to not needing to be permanently GDB-banned anymore? Or was it something that changed about the game, or the community, in your opinion?

 a.) What was it that changed about either you, the game, or the community? HOW did that change happen?

Maybe you'll have some useful advice. Maybe your advice won't be useful for the reason that whoever is banned doesn't respect you. I know that -I- respect your opinions but sadly, the state of hating the game often spreads to hating some of the community too, and therefore your advice, while it might be useful, might not be heeded. All the same, -I- want to hear it. Maybe what you say could be reworded by me and together we can work out some take-home points for troublemakers.

I wish I could say I had some great advice or that something changed about the game that made me "come around", but honestly, it just had to do with maturity.

I started playing this game when I was a young teen. When I started playing this game, this community was just a bunch of anonymous internet folks that existed solely for my own juvenile amusement. As I got older, I developed an online persona here that came to be somewhat "expected" of me. I was expected to throw out offensive, abrasive, funny things and so I got into a habit of doing that and only that, usually at the expense of others. Developing a bad persona and then getting into a habit of living up to it because people expect it out of you was the reason it went on for as long as it did I guess.  I guess there is a lesson in there somewhere for anyone that is part of any social group.

After so many years, I got to know a lot of these people here, staffers, ex staffers, current players, ex players, and this place became more than an anonymous internet community to me. A lot of these people here are "real" people to me that I have met face to face and shared laughs and good times with and will probably continue to do so with for years to come.

I married one of them.

At the end of the day, it just has to do with me not enjoying being a shithead nearly as much as I used to, and certainly not to the people of this community who are not just anonymous internet people to me anymore.

I'm sorry that doesn't provide very much useful information in terms of helping other people or providing data.

Some people get disgruntled with the staff. Some people feel the staff has a reason to attack them personally. Some people might be right. I have never had the staff attack me personally. If anything they have given me personal consideration I didn't necessarily deserve. I don't agree with some of their decisions, but I don't disagree with all of them.

At the end of the day, we are all just a bunch of goofy nerds pretending to be bald dwarves and sweaty dusty desert elves. Everyone here is a damned goofball. The staffers are giant kids just playing their little silly game, just like the rest of us. Nobody is better than anyone else, some people just have a little more "internet power" when it comes to deciding how our make believe dragons and giant riding beetles get handled. Try not to get offended when they tell you how to play make believe, because honestly, does that really bother you? Most of us are just pasty nerdy 35 year old juveniles who are never going to fully grow up, and I'm thankful for that. Anytime you have this many kids in a sandbox, you are going to have disagreements over who gets to use the shovel, and who gets to use the bucket.

Every member of this community would benefit from stepping back and realizing everyone here, players, staff, the happy and the disgruntled, are all just the same nerdy children we were in junior high. We always will be in this community, because this community is about playing make believe with each other in a fairytale setting where we all get to be children for a little while.

Don't take it so seriously. Sometimes you will encounter that ginger kid who likes to hit other people with their toys and be a dick, but, that is part of being a kid, and that's what we get to be here when everywhere else we have to be adults.

I rambled, but, that is my advice.

[Pale Horse]

Wish I could somehow sig that entire part about the sandbox.

[Barzalene]

I was thinking I wish I could like posts.

[Molten Heart]

I was thinking I wish I could like posts.

I've been wanting the ability to 'like' posts on the GDB for years. Makes me wonder if there's a smf mod that allows that.

[FantasyWriter]

That may just be the most reasonable post ever made about player-staff interactions.
Well done, Desertman. Well done.

[slvrmoontiger]

I know, from personal experiences, that a lot of things that happen is done in "heat of the moment" situations. I can honestly say I know this personally. My personal mail account on the GDB has been blocked since late June or early July because of something I did in the "heat of the moment" that I guess looking back at it could have been seen as flaming. At this point I'm not sure if I'll be allowed to ever have my personal mail account restored again. I know it's probably frustrating for anyone that might have tried sending me a personal mail and I didn't reply. I know people have because I still get the emails with copies of the message. This is frustrating for me because I can't reply back and because I wonder if the person thinks I'm ignoring them (obviously they don't get any message saying I can't use personal mail). So I'm hoping with various changes I've been trying to make in my behavior on the GDB, IG, and with staff help to eventually give this back to me.

This whole thing was quite confusing for me because:
1) I never received any information that it was being taken away. It was just done.
2) When I asked for some sort of explanation (again I wasn't thinking clearly because of anger so I didn't recognize it as flaming) as for why it was disabled I didn't get any.
3) I was never informed if I would eventually be able to earn personal mail back.

I feel that if staff is going to ban or block services they should follow through letting you know exactly why and for how long.

[BleakOne]

I think nowadays staff has a policy of always informing you of why docking karma or other 'punishments' are handed down. If you aren't told why something happens, it makes no sense as a punishment.

Also, I really liked Dman's post.

[chrisdcoulombe]

Why so serious?   Aren't we all friends?  Staff, players.  We all come together as a community to play D&D basically.  Its amazing and fun.  I appreciate it, even though it pisses me off sometimes.   The unresolved conflicts need to be resolved.  Bickering, or just bitching endlessly on a public forum is not going to end the conflict.

We need to all kiss and make up so to speak.  Let bygones be bygones,  forgive each other for the past.  Stop holding it against each other.  Keep the murder corruption and betrayal in the game.

I have more to say, but I am tired, good night.

[Nergal]

To add to the general discussion about player and staff relationships, I think it helps to have some perspective.

Way before I started as a staff member, I observed an overall improvement in player-staff relations as a player. Staff follow many rules with regards to what they are able to do to or with PCs, and discuss player-affecting actions together so as to ensure fairness and impartiality. Any issues that exist today are relatively minor compared to the problems of five to ten years ago, or longer than that, and even these issues are being improved.

Ultimately what staff, and I think players, want from the GDB - and the community around the game at large -  is a place where discourse is productive, understandable, and honest. Achieving that requires players and staff alike to uphold that, and I think 99% of the time, everyone gets it right. It's that 1% that is the most jarring, and something we all have to work past and reduce.

[Nyr]

I think nowadays staff has a policy of always informing you of why docking karma or other 'punishments' are handed down. If you aren't told why something happens, it makes no sense as a punishment.

We do, even if it is after applying that punishment.  Sometimes we make a change to an account first rather than inform first because of the nature of the problem with the account, trusting that we'll either be advising the player soon, or the player will address it with staff as soon as they notice it.  Everyone that has had a negative action taken against them by staff has had that communicated to them.  The next step is up to the player.

[Zoan]

Finally, some DRAMA.

I'll be back in 8 or so hours, you all better be seventeen pages in by the time I get home.

[Harmless]

I haven't seen any drama in this thread. Where are you seeing it, Chibi-Zoan?

[Zoan]

I COME HOME TO NOTHING. NOTHING!

[Harmless]

I really don't think there's much more that can be said about this.

At some point the community kind of endorses the punishment. I think once enough people in a community get attacked it feels inevitable. I personally think that if it's the gdb ALONE (see amended subject line for this post) was where our community was attacked that a permanent game ban is extreme. But if there is ANY evidence that members of our community are being attacked in other OOC channels, such as other forums, chat services, or ICly, then the permanent game ban becomes more and more justified.

Valeria pointed out I don't know the whole story, and I don't. Therefore I just have to assume that there is indeed other forms of attack. I trust the staff wouldn't have made this decision without that.

I also think that the staff has no obligation to tell the banned person ALL the reasons they received the ban if they have additional evidence that they don't think they need to share. One reason worthy of a game ban is enough, and all the reasons don't need to be given. There may therefore be more reasons that I am not aware of because I was only briefly told about this shit several days ago. Since then I haven't heard much, but I have to assume there is something there.

So, I'm really done, Zoan. I don't intend to fight this out. This isn't my fight at all.

Circumventing bans, etc, it's not going to go anywhere good. It's just more and more of the same shit, and it hasn't helped a damn thing for anyone, and I'm really sick and tired of it. The worst thing is, although the game ban and GDB ban may seem like the best solution to you all, I can't completely avoid the effects of it. I just keep seeing the shit continue and I think, "great, is this going to culminate in something even worse? Is it going to culminate in something bad for me? For someone I know?"

All I can do at this point is plead to the banned person to look within and find out the root cause of all the hatred and to seek help for it. They know me and they can find me and talk it out, I'm always open to that, as long as it doesn't mean that I too will be harassed! Making enemies of literally EVERYONE is an awful way to live. The good news is, that it doesn't have to continue, it can stop, but it has to start with the person being 'outcast' in the first place, and for complex but valid reasons, it really can't start anywhere else.

[Lizzie]

Harmless I'll make up an example to hopefully explain why some of us think it's a good idea. I'll use you as a victim, and me as the GDB troll so you can get a true sense of the reality of the situation.

I see a photo of you, and start making comments about your looks on the GDB. I send you a few PMs to tell you how ugly you are, and how fat, and how you should just jump off a cliff and end it all because you won't find anyone willing to love you unless they're 100% blind. Then, I post on the GDB about how you are stalking me and trying to get me to put you on my AIM buddy list for some real-time sex chat and maybe hook up in Toronto.

So now - EVERYONE knows about this utter and complete bullshit that I just made up, for the express purpose of hurting your feelings. Most players don't know that it's 100% made up and fictional, and some of them buy the whole story. Some of them are RPing in your clan, and you know it. You know that they know that I've trashed you every which way til Sunday in public and in PM on the GDB. Now, you start wondering if Amos the clannie ranger is avoiding you because of what he's read about you on the internet. You worry that the templar is treating you differently because of what his player read about you on the GDB. You notice there's a lot fewer clannies interacting with you, except this one female F-me who has a thing for women - and you wonder if it's some perv player just wanting to get some mudsex, because she read all about you on the GDB.

Meanwhile, I'm playing in an opposing clan, and all MY clannies are out to get all the clannies in YOUR clan. Why is that? Is it because we're all awesome RPers and playing out what makes sense IG? Or is it because they're all my real-time pals and we're ganging up against you, the player, through the media of the text game? You won't ever really know for sure, will you? How much fun will you have playing the game knowing that I'm still playing and possibly creating IG drama based on the OOC bullying? How much fun will you have IG, NOT knowing whether all the RP against your character is actually OOC bullying against you, the player?

I shouldn't be allowed to post - and you shouldn't have to wonder if the IC stuff is just a facade for OOC bullying. So if I get tossed out of the game for stalking you on the GDB, then at least you can have some peace of mind knowing that your entertainment hours are not spent with real-time worries about being bullied.

This kind of shit happens in text games. Usually it's not blatant enough that the victim will even know that they're being OOCly victimized. But when it IS blatant - then that's when the staff can - and should - decide that the shit needs to stop, both OOCly and ICly, when and if the IC behaviors are only an extension of the OOC behaviors.