Play in Tuluk

[Molten Heart]

There are hundreds of significant people in the history of Zalanthas.  It'd be cool if there were IC histories kept about all of these people (and maybe there are some).  I think only templars and nobles would have access.  There was once a bard named Holden Irofel who told all kinds of interesting stories from history, I'm guessing he was an older player who'd actually experienced these things and decided to share a lot of them.  However in a place like Tuluk, things could get difficult in the case where one unknowingly started telling the real history from one's memory that was in conflict with the "The Official History"

[Reiloth]

The infamous 'Find out IC' is a great way to see who these people are.

Names like Sujaal can be easily investigated in places like Tuluk, because his name is ubiquitous, especially if you ask someone in the Circle who's focus is history.

Man, I haven't seen Find out IC used that often recently. Wha' Happen?

[palomar]

There are hundreds of significant people in the history of Zalanthas.  It'd be cool if there were IC histories kept about all of these people (and maybe there are some).  I think only templars and nobles would have access.  There was once a bard named Holden Irofel who told all kinds of interesting stories from history, I'm guessing he was an older player who'd actually experienced these things and decided to share a lot of them.  However in a place like Tuluk, things could get difficult in the case where one unknowingly started telling the real history from one's memory that was in conflict with the "The Official History"

Holten Irofel.

People's stories, and stories about people are available in game to some extent. The Circle (oral history and traditions), nobility (House libraries and collections) and templarate (government libraries and archives) are all good sources if you want to learn more about someone from the past. Also, if you're interested in a Kadian, House Kadius might be the place to go to ask and so forth. Sometimes staff can provide various kinds of information, if your PC is in a position to find out. It can be both fun, rewarding and dangerous to pursue that kind of knowledge.

I'm quite sure most of the people all those roads and streets are named after were PCs. Fun stuff for the historically inclined Tuluki.

[RogueGunslinger]

The infamous 'Find out IC' is a great way to see who these people are.

Names like Sujaal can be easily investigated in places like Tuluk, because his name is ubiquitous, especially if you ask someone in the Circle who's focus is history.

Man, I haven't seen Find out IC used that often recently. Wha' Happen?

It's a shitty answer when not backed up by anything else. People often misused it for things that you can't even 'find out IC'. Others griped about that, and now nobody respects the phrase.

[Reiloth]

FIND OUT IC RGS

[valeria]

To continue the derail, it would be awesome if you could make your characters' biographies accessible after X number of years.  Maybe you'd have to ask staff to make sure everyone in them is dead.  Maybe as a spin off from the original submissions page or something.  I don't know.

It's not a find out IC type of thing.  I mean, sure you could find out IC about the public mythos of a famous character.  But that's not quite the same as being able to get into their head via biographies or an insider's view from the player of the character.

[Reiloth]

It might be a fun suggestion for original submissions.

[valeria]

I'll probably make it when the submissions tool stops being broken.

[nauta]

To continue the derail, it would be awesome if you could make your characters' biographies accessible after X number of years.  Maybe you'd have to ask staff to make sure everyone in them is dead.  Maybe as a spin off from the original submissions page or something.  I don't know.

It's not a find out IC type of thing.  I mean, sure you could find out IC about the public mythos of a famous character.  But that's not quite the same as being able to get into their head via biographies or an insider's view from the player of the character.

That's sorta the thought behind this:

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,48378.0.html

To summarize: People, start submitting your PCs life and death (the bio entries for instance) in narrative form using the "Question" pulldown on the Request Tool (once Original Submission is added to the pulldown, you should use that instead).  Staff will probably reject the boring ones.

I would love this!

[Incognito]

As for the poll, it does provide three metrics:  People that want to play there and would, as-is, then people that would only play there if conditions were met, and then people that just don't want to play there at all.  We can discount the last group entirely.

The conditions offered are as follows: 

Add something that was removed years ago (because the staffer that was going to modify it ultimately didn't do it, so we removed it).  We don't have a project to re-add UT.  Rathustra has mentioned here that there are other ideas in mind for modifying Tuluk to have something closer to this.  This takes time and effort, but we do want to do this.

Tone down the automated defenses in Tuluk. When these things were added we mentioned that it would be tweaked over time, especially as we add better code to it and make it smarter.  It has only been active for a few months.  We do have some metrics from it and (again) improving it is intended.  This also takes time and effort, but we do want to do this.

Change other stuff about Tuluk and I'll play there.  This is the most disparate category because it may be different things, but there may be areas here where staff and players can discuss, guide, correct, etc.

Correct Nyr.

When you combine the two polls (Play in Tuluk and Your first choice of location to play a PC), here is what one *could* interpret:
(PP = Player Population)

10.9 % of the PP voted that they would prefer to play in Tuluk
4.7 % of the PP voted that they would play in Tuluk, provided Undertuluk was re-introduced.
84.4 % of the PP voted that they would prefer to play elsewhere in the world.
(Important to note that out of the 84.4 % of PP - a whooping 61 % voted for Allanak and Labyrinth combined.)

Next,

49.4 % of the PP voted that they would play in Tuluk - as things stand right now.
12 % of the PP voted that they would NOT play in Tuluk - under any circumstance.
38.6 % of the PP voted that they would play in Tuluk - only provided certain changes were introduced.

From the first poll, it is evident that *something* is right in Allanak that is attractive to the player base.

From the second poll, it seems apparent that we *could* add considerably to the Tuluki player base, if some changes were made.

Now, Nyr has already commented that certain changes ARE envisaged, but they will probably take some time to be implemented.

I guess this means that until these changes go through, we're all going to have to make a concerted effort to increase the Tuluki player base, if we want to see some evenly-balanced gameplay.

Now, we also have some very interesting observations:

I'm largely with Armaddict on this one.

The reason Tuluk is played in less is because for many people, the 'feel' of Allanak is what is Armageddon is.  Tuluk has a different feel.  Not  a worse one, just a different one.  So they don't switch away from the one that 'feels' more genuinely seated to them.  This discussion has been had so many times, and trying to turn this into a 'Tuluk needs moar power' thing is frankly just weird.

However, I think there might be some other problems for the low population of Tuluk - that it's (allegedly) so easy to survive up there. In Allanak, if you go out on to the desert alone you're taking your life in your hands. I think this encourages people to hang around and interact with each other, to join clans, to work together against the danger of the Environment (and other players). If everyone in Tuluk can just be a successful indie hunter without any need to plug themselves in to a complicated social fabric, they're going to go their own way.

Valid.

A very crude interpretation of this could be - that the relative ease of finding game outside Tuluk and being able to survive - tends to promote more solo play, and in turn cuts down on the population available IN Tuluk for interaction/RP.

Does anyone have any other possible/meaningful interpretations of this data? Lets hear em.

[Nyr]

Does anyone have any other possible/meaningful interpretations of this data? Lets hear em.

I'd say that both polls provide less meaningful data due to how they were constructed, and that polls on the GDB can't necessarily provide meaningful data, and that polls are not really any measure for staff to do anything as we have never really utilized them before and do not really plan to in the future.

Construction of each poll: 

The "what's your first choice to play a PC" poll doesn't take into account where people are playing now or where people just played a PC, and it doesn't take into account any other variables such as sponsored role offerings, and it doesn't take into account the very nature of decent roleplayers playing the role they want to play more than they want to play in a particular "place."  Despite clarifying that it is for ANY PC, in general, it is hard to shed those biases.  Someone playing in Tuluk now may not want to play there for their next PC, thus this may skew their general response.  Someone that just played a tribal may not want to play a tribal for their next PC, thus this may skew their general response.  Someone that sees a sponsored role offering for an area may change their mind about their next playing opportunity.  And quite honestly, I didn't answer the poll at all because where I play depends entirely on the concept that I want to play--and there's no option for "I play the role that currently intrigues me, regardless of where the role is."  That's where we'd want all players to eventually get to (imho).

The "Play in Tuluk" poll offers options that are more biased than not, and it does not properly take into account the actual desires or wishes of the player. 
Bias inherent in each question:
"I'd play regardless - as things stand right now."  This doesn't indicate very much about the wishes of the player and really seems more to be a thing to vote for to counter every other option.  Have you seen our playerbase and what we discuss on the board?  Do you really think there are 41 people that are happy enough with something in the game that they wouldn't change a thing about it?
"I'd play if Undertuluk (or similar) was re-inserted."  This offers no counter such as "I'd play right now but I also would like UT or similar to be re-inserted."
"I'd play if the automated magick/psionic defenses were toned down."  This offers no counter such as "I'd play right now but I also would like the automated magick/psionic defenses to be toned down."  Additionally it says "toned down" rather than "improved/altered/expanded upon," which is something staff has said we'll be doing, and we've gone in-depth about it before.  If nothing else, the poll tells us here that there are at least four people that want to play magickers in Tuluk but feel that the current system would keep them from doing so.
"I wouldn't play in Tuluk, regardless of any changes/additions."  Oddly enough, this is the only response that I think is actually reasonable.
"I'd play in Tuluk if some other addition/change was made (explain separately)."  This is a catch-all for everything, and again, offers no counter such as "I would play in Tuluk but also would want some other addition/change made."

By the way, no, you can't combine both of those polls.  That's wrong.  Bad statistics.  Very bad.  Whatever I may think about the methods, they measure two different things.

Polls not providing meaningful data: GDB polls only net the people that read them.  If we want statistics, it is better to measure what players actually do rather than what they say they will do.

We don't use polls to determine staff direction:  Well, we don't.  It is said occasionally, but this is not a democracy.  You may provide your input and opinions, but nothing necessitates that it be acted upon.  With that said, we do take into account player input for decisions that are made--usually in advance of making a decision.  Oftentimes what players do and request and idea have influence on what happens.  See:  the minor merchant house stuff (a long time in the making, and whose documentation I'm neglecting to chime in here), crafting with fire/crafting changes, shrinking Tuluk, the moon stuff, bulk spice buyer, restrictions to first PCs, etc., to name a few.

[Harmless]

I have to agree with Nyr about this thread's poll in particular -- the first option is there as a counter to the others, which are specific needs or requirements. I don't think this poll really tells us anything about how the playerbase as a whole feels about Tuluk right now.

[Fujikoma]

I'd play in Tuluk because: *gives Allanak BOTH fingers*

[Barzalene]

I am not a huge fan of Tuluk. I like the dirt of Nak, the hot immediacy of life in Nak. That said, its good for the game to move around. Try Tuluk. If it sucks wait a year and try again. Because its good for the game. Because maybe it will be awesome and we just don't know.

[Dresan]

I used to be a long time tuluk player. In fact out of all the years I've played, and all my characters my main ones were tuluk. It was only after the last HRPT I began making allanak character and after playing in tuluk so long, I feel in love with allanak. Perhaps it was just a breathe of fresh air, a change of pace, but deep down I feel the setting and area(s) offer a lot more potential then tuluk.

Lets say for example I get into an argument in the middle of the night with someone in game, and one thing leads to another and they end up dead. Its night, crime code doesn't get you. Someone ending up dead in allanak could have happened from so many sources, rinther, maybe crazy stormer passing through, some rogue magicker, angry murderous militia,etc etc. Death and public violence in allanak has always been ever day life. I know staff has been trying to change this way of thinking in tuluk but it bring us to our second problem. Lets say someone walks in and sees you killing someone. In allanak, it isn't over, you have rinth if have some connections, or you can go to redstorm. Both of these places are special in the sense that you can still have a to of interaction, both in those location and with allanak due to the close proximity and the over all settings of the places.   In short, you can hide out in these places while still causing trouble/intereacting in allanak if need be or just hide out for a while until people forget you and just travel back and forth between locations.

You could head to luirs, but I don't think its too Ic to say that luirs= kurac, so how valuable are you to them alive?

Take that same scenario in tuluk, what options do you have that allow you to keep interacting with the city? Heading to storm would remove you from any interaction with tuluk.  If you chose allanak, you can blend in much more easily since tattoos/accent are far more detriment than in the past. Even if warrens were made into a lawless area, its not the rinth with its culture. Living out in the wilds? you could do that in allanak too, and have redstorm. The crime has to be either legal and regardless you need to get away with it completely without anyone finding out its you. There are fewer interesting options if you fuck up. This makes people less willing to risk the character they've invest time in activities which might ultimately just be throwing them away. At the end of the day, Allanak has more interaction and will ultimately have more shit going on because it supports all sort of characters and their RP better .  

While I've always hated the idea of legalized crime but despite that I still preferred the old system. At least in the past houses could hire an assassin, train them up, and potentially be a valuable tool for them. They would earn influence for the house through his or her actions while doing the same for themselves. It was a simple system which really felt much more rewarding then the new shadow agent sounds. If the name of the game is Murder, betrayal and corruption, it just feels like there is a lot less bureaucracy in Allanak when you decide to go about it.

Anyways, this might not be a democracy but I can still vote where to invest my time.

[HavokBlue]

I'm confused about why you can't do any of the things you're saying you can't do in Tuluk, with the exception of playing identity games with accents/lack of tattoos and hiding in Red Storm.

[FantasyWriter]

Any starting location other than Red Storm Village is Armageddon Lite.  

[Dresan]

I'm confused about why you can't do any of the things you're saying you can't do in Tuluk, with the exception of playing identity games with accents/lack of tattoos and hiding in Red Storm.

You didn't read my post, I didn't say you couldn't kill anyone. Just said, fucking up has fewer interesting options.

[HavokBlue]

If you've committed an illegal murder, the response is going to be the same in either city unless you take appropriate steps. All murders in the south are illegal. Not all murders in the north are illegal. Maybe you killed someone illegally but you got caught, and you kick a a couple thousand coins to the Faithful that caught you to stop investigating a 'licensed' murder.

There's no reason an assassin can't be trained by and serve as a valuable tool to a House. I can think of plenty reasons why a House WOULD want to train and maintain an assassin or two. Whether that house wants to purchase shadow contracts when utilizing their assassin or do everything under the table and deal with the consequences in their own way is up to the House.

[X-D]

The "what's your first choice to play a PC" poll doesn't take into account where people are playing now or where people just played a PC, and it doesn't take into account any other variables such as sponsored role offerings, and it doesn't take into account the very nature of decent roleplayers playing the role they want to play more than they want to play in a particular "place."

Um, it does not take that into account because none of that matters to the question of the poll.

The question is simply, of areas to play, where is your first choice. Period.

If I was to make another poll and make it tighter, say, If you could only play one more Place, and after that all your PCs started there, Where would it be? My bet is that it would end up much the same, or any other wording that essentially means, Where is your fav place to play in the game. As to the rest of your argument on that point, I do not think you are giving anybody credit.  I think they know exactly what the poll is about and answered WITH the bias that the poll wanted, IE, what is your fav place to play, it does not matter what they want to play next or what they last played etc etc etc. Hell, I voted nak, because if I was to be stuck in one location for all my future PCs, I would want it to be nak, Although I DO play elsewhere. Hell, It is a poll about bias, both are. The poll was not about roles, what you like to play, simply, where is your preferred site...reading anything more into it is silly. And People do not get to the point of I play where ever the role I want to play needs to be. Most people are simply not that masochist.

That poll is the most meaningful of the two, And if I was in a position that mattered to the mud, I would want to start finding out exactly why it came out as it did and what can be done to fix it. So that say 2 years from now 80% of the vote is split between Nak and Tuluk and the other 20% spread evenly everywhere else.

I know, I set high goals.

Now.

The "Play in Tuluk" poll offers options that are more biased than not, and it does not properly take into account the actual desires or wishes of the player.  
Bias inherent in each question:
"I'd play regardless - as things stand right now."  This doesn't indicate very much about the wishes of the player and really seems more to be a thing to vote for to counter every other option.  Have you seen our playerbase and what we discuss on the board?  Do you really think there are 41 people that are happy enough with something in the game that they wouldn't change a thing about it?
"I'd play if Undertuluk (or similar) was re-inserted."  This offers no counter such as "I'd play right now but I also would like UT or similar to be re-inserted."
"I'd play if the automated magick/psionic defenses were toned down."  This offers no counter such as "I'd play right now but I also would like the automated magick/psionic defenses to be toned down."  Additionally it says "toned down" rather than "improved/altered/expanded upon," which is something staff has said we'll be doing, and we've gone in-depth about it before.  If nothing else, the poll tells us here that there are at least four people that want to play magickers in Tuluk but feel that the current system would keep them from doing so.
"I wouldn't play in Tuluk, regardless of any changes/additions."  Oddly enough, this is the only response that I think is actually reasonable.
"I'd play in Tuluk if some other addition/change was made (explain separately)."  This is a catch-all for everything, and again, offers no counter such as "I would play in Tuluk but also would want some other addition/change made."

By the way, no, you can't combine both of those polls.  That's wrong.  Bad statistics.  Very bad.  Whatever I may think about the methods, they measure two different things.

Now, your arguments here Are more on point....
First question, Yes, we can also assume that at least half of them are fanboys who simply want Tuluk to look good.....And I agree with everything you say on that question actually.
Honestly, you know what, this is a bad poll...Nyr, you are right on this poll, the information gained is essentially useless. There are too many variables to everything...I was just looking at the undertuluk question. And hell, you could  love tuluk and already be playing there and vote for it simply because you think it would be better WITH undertuluk.

But the first choice poll does give valid and useful information.

[palomar]

There's no reason an assassin can't be trained by and serve as a valuable tool to a House. I can think of plenty reasons why a House WOULD want to train and maintain an assassin or two. Whether that house wants to purchase shadow contracts when utilizing their assassin or do everything under the table and deal with the consequences in their own way is up to the House.

By purchasing contracts the (Surif) House would promote the shadow arts, ensure the legality of their dirty business, uphold and adhere to the Sun King's Law, support the Arts and so on. As most nobles would have no trouble getting permission to purchase their various contracts (not only assassinations), I can't see any good reasons to keep an unlicensed assassin or thief in the House employ. Especially so considering the massive stink unlicensed crime causes, and nobles generally don't like that kind of stink when it rubs off on them. Even utilizing someone quite far removed from any official House employ could be considered going against both law and tradition. Yes, nobles are regarded as exempt from most laws, but the people working for them are definitely not. Doesn't look good to do that kinda stuff, and we all know appearances are important to nobility.

Having a registered shadow artist in-House and not purchasing contracts for their activities would probably be strongly disapproved of by the Templarate, more so if it's not a single incident.

I have not yet played a shadow artist in Tuluk, but I most certainly intend to try it out at some point. Maybe I won't like the system once I try, but the societal complexity in Tuluk has always had a strong appeal with me.

[HavokBlue]

There are a couple documentation-supported reasons I can think of why a Surif House would want to utilize an assassin off the record.

[Norcal]

The Atrium..only a distinctly Tuluki variety,

[Nyr]

Um, it does not take that into account because none of that matters to the question of the poll.

The question is simply, of areas to play, where is your first choice. Period.

Even that is limiting and makes it a generally useless poll.  For instance, what is your second choice?  What is your third choice?  This is not an election in the States where winner takes all.  Players play in many places and gravitate to what they enjoy...some because they like the idea of a concept there and have always wanted to try it out, some because they got a sponsored role there, some because "screw it, I'll give a delf a shot for a week or two."  All we requested here was to give a bit of a shot in the arm to playing in Tuluk so that some other plots can be encouraged forward.  You do not need to have Tuluk as a first choice for more people for that to happen.

That poll is the most meaningful of the two, And if I was in a position that mattered to the mud, I would want to start finding out exactly why it came out as it did and what can be done to fix it.

Well...

Polls not providing meaningful data: GDB polls only net the people that read them.  If we want statistics, it is better to measure what players actually do rather than what they say they will do.

I'd argue that in this case, there is nothing to fix.  The poll is not reliable or useful towards any actionable end; people (at least people that have GDB accounts that used one or more of them to vote in a poll on the GDB) are allowed to think that their first choice for playing a PC would be playing it in Allanak--if that is what this poll shows.

[X-D]

why do you need a second or third choice? The fact that one place truly dominates as a first choice is telling enough. would the other info be nice as well...sure...but that would require a thread and somebody to tally the numbers...not a simple poll.

And that person was only elected by the people that voted and only the people who answered the phone counted towards that poll....etc etc etc. The arguement that the poll only reached people on the gdb is invalid, it is still a % of the player base and can be assumed to be a fair cross section.

And of course people play other areas for what ever reasons...but that is not the question at hand.

As to being actionable...eh, i would agree that at this point there is not enough info. But maybe knowing that nak is VASTLY prefered is enough to be actionable in getting the rest of that information?