Play in Tuluk

[Nyr]

Hmm.  It says Tuluki against Tulukis in the doc, but when written, that was more to emphasize that this system applies to Tuluk and it is how they use it.  When in Rome, do as the Romans.  (Or not, it's up to your PC whether you want to operate outside of the "law.")  I think that we can adjust that paragraph to make it more clear that this is just a Tuluki system that applies to Tuluk (rather than a Tuluki system that is exclusive to Tulukis).

Being a non-citizen shouldn't be such a big negative modifier when you are affiliated with some group that has sway in the city.

[Incognito]

Some folks have brought up the issue of "subtlety", and Nyr's addressed it from several different angles.

The point is - Tuluk has always been "subtler" than Allanak, which has always tended to be "overt" - or "cruder" as the Tuluki's might call it.

That distinction is a given, and always has been.

YES, the subtleties of Tuluk have been toned down, to allow for more freedom of RP, while at the same time, there are higher levels of subtlety in place too - for those who relish it.

If you're trying to say - make Tuluk more like Allanak - that's never gonna happen.

What we're trying to figure out here is, why folks aren't playing as much in Tuluk NOW, as compared to before.

There have been several major changes to Tuluk in the past few years:
a) Removal of UT.
b) Stricter magickal and psionic defenses.
c) Stricter magickal and psionic auto-detection (ICLY the powers that be in Tuluk are more vigilant now).
d) Addition of the Warrens (greatly expanded).
e) Addition of Shadow Artists.
f) Addition of Tribals.
g) Tattoo checking at certain locations.
h) Shrinking of Tuluk and removal of certain taverns.

Now, in view of these changes - what would need to be "tweaked" to make Tuluk more playable? That (IMO) is the question.

PS - The answer isn't - "make it more like Allanak"..... or "I don't like the subtleties"..... coz those are things that make Tuluk Tuluk, and make Tuluk different from Allanak.

[Reiloth]

I think people are remembering Undertuluk with 20/20 vision.

It was an interesting place to have in juxtapose with Tuluk -- It actually enhanced the 1984 vision of Tuluk, because a seditious element could survive beneath its surface.

It was a pretty difficult place to play in -- It actually had less resources available than the Labyrinth does, and a much smaller player base. When I played in Undertuluk, you were lucky to have 1 or 2 other people playing actively inside it. Otherwise, you had to go to the surface for interaction, much like people in the Labyrinth go Southside to find a glimmer of interaction.

It was a very ISO area to play in, especially if you were a nasty little Magicker or Psion or what have you, and couldn't go topside.

I think with some tinkering, the Warrens could fulfill the same functions as UT did.

-Some expansion of the Warrens, either up, or down, to add dimension to their alleys.
-Some lawlessness -- I think this is already the case, as I haven't seen as many soldiers around there in recent months. But another zone, so crimcode doesn't kick in, either above or below the surface.
-Not another tavern. The Tembo's Tooth already serves as a good meet and greet for the gritty types.
-I'm sure Staff already has plans for the Warrens and has been implementing them, over time, so I don't really have more to add.

[Ouroboros]

Disclaimer: My personal experience with Tuluk has included various roles over the years, including nobility, the bardic circle, and non-citizen GMH residents. I used to be a major fanboy of Tuluk, preferring the nuance and artistic culture of that city-state over all others. I haven't played there since its revamp, by choice.

I had the opportunity to explore U.T. while it was still accessible, and I can see why it's missed by some. I also fully understand why it was removed. Much like other half-finished areas of the game, it needed work to really become a valuable asset to the game. As it stood it offered some opportunities that players (myself included) enjoyed, but it also promised an experience it couldn't really deliver on in its current state. Reiloth and others covered this somewhat so I won't elaborate. I do feel it's something that would make a valuable addition to the area though and bring some balance that would attract players. It doesn't really matter what it's called, as long as it provides the same opportunities U.T. promised on and only partly delivered. If our current staff size and motivation level holds, I'd hope it's a project someone will pick up. Nyr and Rathustra have stated such plans might exist, so we'll see.

If someone were to ask what drove me away from Tuluk personally, I'd have to say it was the Lirathan Order followed by the new vision for the area. The former I've always had an issue with, for reasons most of us know and can't really discuss. And while the Lirathan Order is now gone... Ahem. Anyway. The later, the shift of vision, isn't something I feel staff was wrong to implement. It's just something I personally didn't enjoy as implemented. However I do think there's room for improvement, always. On which point...

What I think Tuluk is missing is balance, and others have touched on this in the thread as well. I think the Orwellian vision of Tuluk, along with all its stifling restrictions, could work if there was a bigger payoff to balance it. Right now it doesn't feel like that balance is there, at least to me. I think the cultural contrast between North and South has been fleshed out at length over the years and the latest changes serve to assist it even more, but culture alone doesn't do it. Especially when it largely stands on documentation.

The elimination of everything non-mundane in Tuluk doesn't seem to have anything to show for it. I'd like to see a greater emphasis placed on technological advancement in the North, as a result of non-reliance on magick. One or two others stated this as well.  I would even go as far as to say psionic roles could be culturally accepted in an open fashion, like the southern gemmed are, placing a clear emphasis on the mind vs magick dichotomy. It's out there, I know, but it makes some sense as well. In fact I'd say this dichotomy was a strong part of Tuluk's past vision, but was implemented in a too elitist fashion. As so many other aspects were back then, to current staff's defense.

I'd like to see the Tuluki mentality shift from a fear and hate of magick, to one of viewing magick as something simply beneath them; something they have no need of, due to superior mental prowess and innovations derived from such. And I'd like to see that across the board, not represented by a handful-at-most only. Perhaps for this to happen the psion class might need to be revisited and fleshed out in a different fashion, to create an equivalent of the elemental and preserver/defiler split magick has. Perhaps a mini-psion class would be needed. Perhaps it'd work as is. But it's worth investigation I feel.

If everything non-mundane is kept out of Tuluk, including psionics, then I think advancements in other areas are needed even more. I feel the game could survive if Tuluk pushed itself even a single step up in the evolutionary technological advancement ladder. Some of objects once labeled as anachronistic for example could possibly be re-visited, like glass manipulation into lenses. Things that might be a touch more useful in coded terms, but would more importantly be clearly northern in origin and by documentation bare a stigma for southerners to use. And likewise if this line of thought was pursued I'd like to see magick become a bit more accepted in Allanak, closer to how it once was. Certain elemental classes should be relied on more actively and openly for their services.

I guess what it comes down to for me is... Right now the north has a ton of hard-coded limitations without sufficient counterpoint advantages, and the south has major hard-coded advantages than they can't utilize in full due to artificially placed limitations. The later, at least partly, implemented to offset the former. While it might do the trick, most of the time it still feels like a hack. Actually valid balance would go a much longer way towards not only player's desire to play in either area, but the game as a whole.

As always, my well-over-two cents.

[Marauder Moe]

You know what will make Tuluk better?  More players.

You know what gets more players?

 

[Aruven]

You know what will make Tuluk better?  More players.

You know what gets more players?

 

wtf 19? Voted.

[Nyr]

What elimination of everything nonmundane in Tuluk?  The Cataclysm was more than a dozen years ago in real life time.  Are you talking about that?

What hard-coded advantages does the south have that they can't utilize due to artificially placed limitations?  What artificially placed limitations?

When is the last time you played a Tuluki?

[nauta]

What you are describing isn't subtlety, it is elitist roleplay.

That's a great distinction.  I think it happens a lot in Arm, and I just wanted to emphasize the distinction.  (I think a lot of times it is accidental.)

[HavokBlue]

As I have posted above, maybe the players are done with the war. it has been a few IC years already and it was always more of a cold war. If Tulukis weren't so forced to stay there I bet you'd see a lot more tulukis playing again, particularly merchants to take advantage of certain trade routes. Of course the peace should be iffy but maybe it's time for IC events to change course. It could be started IC by about a dozen different routes. But if "no, cold war is going to be a railroaded concept" then I don't think this war is as interesting to players who will feel like they can't affect it one way or the other.

I think it is safe to say that players are not done with the war and if you want to do interesting things in the war staff are now ready to go along with that.

[Ouroboros]

Happy to answer!

What elimination of everything nonmundane in Tuluk?  The Cataclysm was more than a dozen years ago in real life time.  Are you talking about that?

I'm referring to the lack/banishment of magick and psionics. I'm not implying said elimination/limitation was the current administration's doing, even if this was further reinforced by the changes to the city's protection. I'm simply stating that those drawbacks have no valid benefits to balance them.

What hard-coded advantages does the south have that they can't utilize due to artificially placed limitations?  What artificially placed limitations?

I said utilize in full. But to answer... Magick, in the form of gemmed elementalists. Which while able to be used for military applications, have very few other uses they can actively fill outside of just existing and perusing character-related goals. The artificially placed limitations being the social stigma and taboo of magick as solutions to problems they could solve, often in an easier/faster/better fashion than mundane solutions could.

When is the last time you played a Tuluki?

I touch on that in my disclaimer on the post, but I assume it's a rhetorical question to drive some manner of point. You know, since you can check that easily yourself.

Hope that helps.

[Zoan]

The biggest problem with Tuluk, I think, is that there's constantly threads imploring us all to play there, for one reason or another, which spawns a big ole long chat about how to make it more fun.

You never see a 'You should play in Allanak because...' thread, because it's just accepted that everyone will play there.

[Zoan]

For the record, I tend to play a lot more north-based characters than south (Luirs/Tuluk/human tribals, which I count as north).

[Nyr]

Happy to answer!

What elimination of everything nonmundane in Tuluk?  The Cataclysm was more than a dozen years ago in real life time.  Are you talking about that?

I'm referring to the lack/banishment of magick and psionics. I'm not implying said elimination/limitation was the current administration's doing, even if this was further reinforced by the changes to the city's protection. I'm simply stating that those drawbacks have no valid benefits to balance them.

Can you be more specific?  You're talking about the lack/banishment of magick and psionics, and I'm asking specifically what lack/banishment of magick/psionics that you are referring to.  The Catacylsm was over a dozen years ago, so if you are referring to it as a major reason you do not play in Tuluk, you're bringing up a much different reason than other players have brought here--essentially saying that things were better before the Cataclysm/before the Occupation/etc because you could play a magicker openly up there with no gem.

What banishment/lack of psionics?  That IS what the templarate does.  That has been the case for many years and it is still the case...it is in the docs...

What hard-coded advantages does the south have that they can't utilize due to artificially placed limitations?  What artificially placed limitations?

I said utilize in full. But to answer... Magick, in the form of gemmed elementalists. Which while able to be used for military applications, have very few other uses they can actively fill outside of just existing and perusing character-related goals. The artificially placed limitations being the social stigma and taboo of magick as solutions to problems they could solve, often in an easier/faster/better fashion than mundane solutions could.

But those are issues you have with Allanak...not Tuluk.  And those aren't really artificially placed limitations.  They are (if I understand you correctly) cultural/documentation limitations that you disagree with.

When is the last time you played a Tuluki?

I touch on that in my disclaimer on the post, but I assume it's a rhetorical question to drive some manner of point. You know, since you can check that easily yourself.

Hope that helps.

I don't think you touch on that accurately in your disclaimer, which is why I was hoping you'd give context.

[Ouroboros]

Happy to elaborate then!

Can you be more specific?  You're talking about the lack/banishment of magick and psionics, and I'm asking specifically what lack/banishment of magick/psionics that you are referring to.  The Catacylsm was over a dozen years ago, so if you are referring to it as a major reason you do not play in Tuluk, you're bringing up a much different reason than other players have brought here--essentially saying that things were better before the Cataclysm/before the Occupation/etc because you could play a magicker openly up there with no gem.

Yes, if you're looking to timeline it, the Catacylsm is what I'm referring to. It started then and has been reinforced over the years including recent times. However when it happened, or even the fact it happened, has no real impact on my point. I'm looking at where we stand today and offering my thoughts on how today could be improved tomorrow.

I'm not saying the lack of magick and psionics in Tuluk is a bad thing that should be changed, after a dozen years of being the case. I'm also not saying you or any other staff member did anything wrong in your reinforcing that vision. I'm saying that the combined effects of all the changes over the past decade or so have, today, brought us to a point where Tuluk isn't desirable as an environment for a percent of the player-base. What got us here isn't the point though, what can be done to fix what's in our hands right now is.

Coincidentally, I'm also not saying the above is why I don't play in Tuluk of late. I actually outlined that separately in my post, and you personally know exactly why and when I stopped playing north. My personal issues are smaller than the bigger issue I see with Tuluk though, I just continued to play there despite the bigger issue I could see.

But those are issues you have with Allanak...not Tuluk.

Those issues tie into the bigger north vs south picture, which you can't ignore when discussing why players play in one area over another. And I stated in my original post that if something was done to address the northern lack of balance, balancing the south as well would feed well into the greater health of the game.

And those aren't really artificially placed limitations. They are (if I understand you correctly) cultural/documentation limitations that you disagree with.

Semantics, but... Yes, what I refer to as artificial limitations you're referring to as documentation limitations. I use artificial in context versus hard-coded limitations. Meaning the code is there and accessible, but it's use is controlled artificially by staff oversight and documentation. We can call them documentation limitations if that helps though; it's the effect in question, not the label.

I don't think you touch on that accurately in your disclaimer, which is why I was hoping you'd give context.

I'm not going to dig through my account notes right now, but to answer to the best of my memory... The last time I played an inked Tuluki was a long bloody time ago. The last time I played in Tuluk however, which is the subject of this thread, was what... a year ago? Around the same time the major revisions started happening, which I stated was when I stopped. The last time I was inside Tuluk was a few months ago I think. In the interest of further metrics, half my characters have been northern (citizens or otherwise). Which is about as much as I'm willing to share in a public discussion about something that barely relates to my stated position.

I'll also point out I'm not the only one who's touched on this is a problem. Taven mentioned this first (first page, second to last post), with his proposed solutions more House-centric. Beethoven echoes my sentiments even closer (third page, third post), citing technological advancement in Tuluk to offset Allanak magick, an idea which FantasyWriter supports as well a couple posts later.

A few question of my own, if you'll permit. Besides semantic arguments, do you understand the problem I outline? If not, feel free to keep asking. If so, do you feel it's something worth addressing? If not, is it because you don't see it as a problem or because you don't feel it's the right problem to address? If so, perhaps further discussion could lead to some ideas.

[Nyr]

I actually outlined that separately in my post, and you personally know exactly why and when I stopped playing north.

I don't, actually.  I mean, I can look at account notes and stuff but that doesn't give me much detail except to see where you played and what it was.

A few question of my own, if you'll permit. Besides semantic arguments, do you understand the problem I outline? If not, feel free to keep asking. If so, do you feel it's something worth addressing? If not, is it because you don't see it as a problem or because you don't feel it's the right problem to address? If so, perhaps further discussion could lead to some ideas.

I understand your particular issues with it.  I don't agree with them, but I understand better what they are now.

[Ouroboros]

I don't, actually.  I mean, I can look at account notes and stuff but that doesn't give me much detail except to see where you played and what it was.

No worries. It was partly in silent protest to continued existence of the Lirathan Order and the shape of things to come, and partly in needing a break from your oversight in general as per your duties at the time.  You're often the elephant in the room when it comes to discussing Tuluk and the North, I'm sure you realize. All of which is irrelevant to my original post, but perhaps relevant to the discussion.

I understand your particular issues with it.  I don't agree with them, but I understand better what they are now.

Happy to help. I don't mind anyone agreeing or disagreeing, so long as they understand my point.

If staff ever feels like discussing the bigger picture internally and how Tuluk as a counterpoint to Allanak might be improved, at least you've some ideas and arguments presented in my original post and the aforementioned posts from others.

EDIT: The simplest way I can put it after some thought is this... Allanak (kinda) has magick. Tuluk has... No magick. That's not balance, that's the presence and absence of the same thing. Basically a scale with only one side loaded. Tuluk could use something on it's side of the scale, that can be measured in more than nuance and roleplay guidelines.

[nauta]

Adding something like the rinth to Tuluk would facilitate something that is quite fun in Nak, namely: cops and robbers fun.  

In fact, in Nak, the nuance is pretty pleasing and not just cops and robbers paint by numbers plots, with a lot of nuances between the Guild and the Templarate and the Arm of His Dragon - a lot of corruption at least, and murder.  City-to-city conflict has always struck me as a bit of a stretch (most of those plots I've been involved with have fizzled and died or just been big ol' RPT battles that - my personal opinion - never really interested me for reasons I could articulate elsewhere) - but internal conflict between factions inside a city have been -really- fun in my experience - they've been player driven, and there's a REAL fear factor involved, but it is balanced enough that the criminals can crime at least a bit, and perhaps more relevant, spying is a real option.

My only worry is that it would empty out the rinth playerbase a bit, and then I'd have nobody to PK with my bone club.

[Ouroboros]

And since a picture's worth a thousand words, here's how some players seem to feel:

[HavokBlue]

Adding something like the rinth to Tuluk would facilitate something that is quite fun in Nak, namely: cops and robbers fun.  

In fact, in Nak, the nuance is pretty pleasing and not just cops and robbers paint by numbers plots, with a lot of nuances between the Guild and the Templarate and the Arm of His Dragon - a lot of corruption at least, and murder.  City-to-city conflict has always struck me as a bit of a stretch (most of those plots I've been involved with have fizzled and died or just been big ol' RPT battles that - my personal opinion - never really interested me for reasons I could articulate elsewhere) - but internal conflict between factions inside a city have been -really- fun in my experience - they've been player driven, and there's a REAL fear factor involved, but it is balanced enough that the criminals can crime at least a bit, and perhaps more relevant, spying is a real option.

My only worry is that it would empty out the rinth playerbase a bit, and then I'd have nobody to PK with my bone club.

Other than the lack of a lawless zone in which to train your backstab and sap and hideout from soldiers, there is nothing preventing you from doing these things in Tuluk as well.

[Patuk]

I'd kinda like to see some current virtual population statistics if that is the case.. The old thing I often quote to bash people with reason are old.

[Ouroboros]

It's good to see the discussion's taking place and ideas on the future are brewing, Rathustra.

But yeah, the bit of irony there is the crux of the problem. Hard to attract manpower to throw at the problem without perks or balancing weapon-power in place. And that's just the problem with the city-state war, before even looking at the broader picture of the game's balance itself.

[Beethoven]

Rathustra's post got vanished, Tuluki-style.

[Ouroboros]

What post? Move along in His Light, citizen.

[Rathustra]

Yeah, sorry guys. I decided that it probably wasn't really constructive to blabber about personal ideas or inspirations when the discussion is more about stuff that players can directly have a hand in.

[Aruven]

Why was Tuluk successful in the copper war with the same balance of things, and suddenly so outmatched in everyone's eyes now? Just something i've been thinking about. There seems to be an emphasis on... Tuluk's weakness due to lack of magick availability since Allanak has/can employ it - So there's a need for technological superiority.