Balancing Language Real/Zalanthian

[CodeMaster]

When I came to RPIs I thought it was extremely cool that people would put in the work to add an accent to their character.

Also a big fan of how Irvine Welsh expresses dialect in, e.g., Trainspotting (that book takes a long time to warm up to before you can actually read it at a normal pace).

"Ah wanted the radge tae jist fuck off ootay ma visage, tae go oan his ain, n jist leave us."

It's not everyone's cup of tea, but come on - there's far more egregious things people could be doing that are more deserving of being your biggest pet peeve.

[HavokBlue]

I wish people wouldn't interpret using the look command as staring directly at somebody.

If my PC is completely naked, and you don't use the look command, you have no idea. If my PC is wearing a magical necklace of mummified dicks, and it's flashing all the colors of the rainbow, you don't know unless you use the look command.

[Fujikoma]

I wish people wouldn't interpret using the look command as staring directly at somebody.

If my PC is completely naked, and you don't use the look command, you have no idea. If my PC is wearing a magical necklace of mummified dicks, and it's flashing all the colors of the rainbow, you don't know unless you use the look command.

I enjoy the immersion of my PC having no idea what these things look like. Also, if you're a noble or Templar, completely naked except for your necklace of mummified dicks, I should likely be running the other way as fast as possible.

[nauta]

I wish people wouldn't interpret using the look command as staring directly at somebody.

If my PC is completely naked, and you don't use the look command, you have no idea. If my PC is wearing a magical necklace of mummified dicks, and it's flashing all the colors of the rainbow, you don't know unless you use the look command.

Probably the wrong thread, but + a million.  Although I've played other muds that didn't echo a look, and that was annoying, since you couldn't tell if the people in the room were AFK or just super creepy.  I like having look echo, in other words, but I wish people would take a look to be nothing more than a cursory glance, unless one adds emotes like 'LOOK TEMPLAR [ogling]'

[valeria]

I don't see any problem with using real terms for actions.  My character might fish for something in a bag or belt.  It's an emote, it's not character to character speech, I'm describing to another player what my character looks like.

On the other hand, I'm probably not going to use "fishing" as a word in speech.  But if If I do, I probably mean trawling a disemboweled breed along behind a silt skimmer. 

[solera]

Gold and silver are almost pure color words to my PC's. If they did look at a silver ring, they'd see a Metal ring that was a shiny silver colour.

And..."Mate".

[Voular]

When I came to RPIs I thought it was extremely cool that people would put in the work to add an accent to their character.

Also a big fan of how Irvine Welsh expresses dialect in, e.g., Trainspotting (that book takes a long time to warm up to before you can actually read it at a normal pace).

"Ah wanted the radge tae jist fuck off ootay ma visage, tae go oan his ain, n jist leave us."

It's not everyone's cup of tea, but come on - there's far more egregious things people could be doing that are more deserving of being your biggest pet peeve.

Not really. English is already my fourth language. Making me pause to try and decipher what your character said, then deciding if MY character understands it, before proceeding with a scene is jarrig and brings me out of it. And who wants to play the same asshole who goes around telling people to stop talking with a sock in their mouth? If your character has more ' in a sentence than actual vowels, go to the god damn vowel store. I know certain people want to portray rough and tumble, but there's better ways of doing it than trying to type out some sort of texas-cockney accent that makes no damn sense. I came to play a game that was beautiful in its language. So yes, it is one of my biggest issues with players.

[Marauder Moe]

I don't think players have any particular guaranteed right to understand what my characters are saying.

[Voular]

I got a PM about my post. I'll transcribe some of my response to it, and perhaps my opinion won't come out as jackassy.

Do not take my post as something directed at anyone I am currently playing with. I am perfectly fine in understanding even the most convoluted of ingame accents and dialects. I was simply arguing a point I felt should be made. But I wrote pev-peeve because it's simply something trivial to be annoyed at. And you as a player doing something that is not against any rules, and for you increases your fun exponentially should not back down because I find it occasionally annoying to read 'ello guvernah.

Do not change. Do not back down. Handle it IC. If you make this choice, stick with it. Do not let moderate opinions from one player sway you in any way. I am simply playing devil's advocate. I am not attacking anyone.

[whitt]

It raises an interesting point though

The code already tacks on "in rinthi-accented" or "tribal" or "northern" or whatever.

Should it be necessary to mangle words (I do it myself) to get over that your character isn't using proper verbiage?

When what is being spoken is truly unintelligible, (eg a different language) the code handles that already.

So, hmmm...  has me thinking.

[Fujikoma]

It raises an interesting point though

The code already tacks on "in rinthi-accented" or "tribal" or "northern" or whatever.

Should it be necessary to mangle words (I do it myself) to get over that your character isn't using proper verbiage?

When what is being spoken is truly unintelligible, (eg a different language) the code handles that already.

So, hmmm...  has me thinking.

I would think it depends on your wisdom score and your background. In the past, I've heard some PCs surmise that due to the nature of my breed's speech, that the human half must have been highborn, so I try to tone it down a bit, you know, it's like, a subtle cue that "Hey dude, I know you're new, but you're really making it hard to believe in your character and that's harming my immersion.".

[whitt]

I would think it depends on your wisdom score and your background. In the past, I've heard some PCs surmise that due to the nature of my breed's speech, that the human half must have been highborn, so I try to tone it down a bit, you know, it's like, a subtle cue that "Hey dude, I know you're new, but you're really making it hard to believe in your character and that's harming my immersion.".

Vocabulary is one thing.  To your point on queues above.

However, simply replacing letters with lettahs and adding the accent bah typin' da wurds like dis?  That's gotta mess with some folks.

[Drone]

However, simply replacing letters with lettahs and adding the accent bah typin' da wurds like dis?  That's gotta mess with some folks.

It's a bit annoying, but I honestly wouldn't mind it so much if at least the accents remained internally consistent. I can't count how many times I've read someone typing out their accent in this way and can't determine exactly what they're trying to emulate. It's like the accent will shift anywhere from bad Cockney to US southern to Russian to whatever within a sentence or two.

[bcw81]

I feel there's a moderate difference between the following:
"Oi, get the feck over 'ere y' krathdamn arsewad."
and
"Oi, geht the fehk ovah 'ere yeh krathham ahswahd."

The former, in my opinion, is just fine. You're uing apostraphies to show how your character is leaving off on pronouncing certain parts of words, and it gets the overall gist of how one speaks across. The latter however seems to just be changing the spelling of every word they can possibly imagine to try and get every phonetic spot on, and while I like the concept, it's highly annoying and doesn't offer any immersion.

[Fujikoma]

However, simply replacing letters with lettahs and adding the accent bah typin' da wurds like dis?  That's gotta mess with some folks.

It's a bit annoying, but I honestly wouldn't mind it so much if at least the accents remained internally consistent. I can't count how many times I've read someone typing out their accent in this way and can't determine exactly what they're trying to emulate. It's like the accent will shift anywhere from bad Cockney to US southern to Russian to whatever within a sentence or two.

... I think you're possibly expecting Zalanthan people to conform to real-world norms, imposing OOC expectations on them. It's a fantasy world, if you can't understand what the player is saying, then there's an easy solution, ask them what the fuck they're saying. Sirihish is not english, there aren't enough documents to establish language concepts that need to be enforced on how people speak, save maybe tribals, and the player is putting effort into playing their PC as they perceive them, even if it annoys you. I've encountered some glaring speech problems in PCs before that would simply cause people to ignore them, did it impact my immersion when they spoke? Yes. But I decided to play with them anyway because, well, someone has to, and playing along with them led to some fun plotlines, that I otherwise would not experience. I also had the chance to provide a good example of what I would like to see from them, what would help me to understand them, because of patience. Attacking the RP of other players on the boards with generic statements is enough to make newer players, who are making an effort to RP with you, question themselves, and possibly consider finding another mud, and this would be saddening.

I know several times, when I was newer, I looked at the GDB and could SWEAR people were talking badly of my PC, but I really don't give a crap, I play to have fun, anyone who doesn't like it can utilize the next mastercraft I'm planning.

EDIT:

I feel there's a moderate difference between the following:
"Oi, get the feck over 'ere y' krathdamn arsewad."
and
"Oi, geht the fehk ovah 'ere yeh krathham ahswahd."

The former, in my opinion, is just fine. You're uing apostraphies to show how your character is leaving off on pronouncing certain parts of words, and it gets the overall gist of how one speaks across. The latter however seems to just be changing the spelling of every word they can possibly imagine to try and get every phonetic spot on, and while I like the concept, it's highly annoying and doesn't offer any immersion.

Haha! Maybe person two only has advanced sirihish. Been hunting in the Pah, or something?

[MeTekillot]

I think you are being paranoid.

[Harmless]

I feel there's a moderate difference between the following:
"Oi, get the feck over 'ere y' krathdamn arsewad."
and
"Oi, geht the fehk ovah 'ere yeh krathham ahswahd."

The former, in my opinion, is just fine. You're uing apostraphies to show how your character is leaving off on pronouncing certain parts of words, and it gets the overall gist of how one speaks across. The latter however seems to just be changing the spelling of every word they can possibly imagine to try and get every phonetic spot on, and while I like the concept, it's highly annoying and doesn't offer any immersion.

I like your examples. I tend to see a lot more of the upper example. I read speech like it in arma very easily now, for years.

[nauta]

I feel there's a moderate difference between the following:
"Oi, get the feck over 'ere y' krathdamn arsewad."
and
"Oi, geht the fehk ovah 'ere yeh krathham ahswahd."

The former, in my opinion, is just fine. You're uing apostraphies to show how your character is leaving off on pronouncing certain parts of words, and it gets the overall gist of how one speaks across. The latter however seems to just be changing the spelling of every word they can possibly imagine to try and get every phonetic spot on, and while I like the concept, it's highly annoying and doesn't offer any immersion.

I like your examples. I tend to see a lot more of the upper example. I read speech like it in arma very easily now, for years.

Actually, both examples strike me as perfectly plausible (and different) accents: if you sound out the second, it is definitely a different accent, more aspirated, than the first.  

I get the argument coming from the ESL people that such accents are tedious, but for my part, I find accented language to be one of the neater aspects of the game: it is a text-based story telling game, in English, after all, and accents are nice ways of making a character come to life in a creative and vivid way.  

As to the "it already flags it as accented" point: not all rinthers speak the same, just as someone might say: oh, that's a British accent, but the actual pronunciation of the words, and word choices are wildly different from area to area.

As to the topic, one point I have is that I think most of us get it that anachronisms aren't cool, but sometimes we slip up.  What I dislike is when IG people make a big deal out of it, like: Oh, what's a rainbow?  Just move on, translate it into your head into the Zalanthan idiom, and if it is egregious and consistent fire off a player complaint.

tl;dr: keep being creative in how you speak!  It's awesome.  (IMHO)

EDITED TO ADD: I feel the same way about trying to RP out an OOC mistake like "rainbow" IG as I do about the whole "omigod ma weaponz / torchez are out" problem that pops up from time to time.  This is my pet peeve, maybe, but there's nothing MORE silly than an IG conversation about why somebody had their weapon out.  Naw, just do something subtle if it bothers you, like:

em a couple patrons notice %bob flickering torch as me sits quietly not bringing it up whatsoever because that would be so silly.

I also sometimes will just use a certain guild's skill to move items I don't think should be in the inventory of other players into their packs and latch them back up. Is that going too far? :-)

[Talia]

I get the argument coming from the ESL people that such accents are tedious,

We actually have players that I know of who do not speak English, rather their command of the language is entirely written. So I'm not sure it's completely just an argument that it's tedious for them if we incorporate additional accents; if what you're saying is that a reader should sound out the words and that's just as good, I'm not sure that's a workable solution for all players. These players may not be able to understand what you're saying at all if you're departing that much from written English.

Not to mention that we have native-English players from (I think) every English-speaking country across the world, and differences of pronunciation even within English can be pretty variable.

Not an official staff pronouncement, of course, and I wouldn't expect us to ever make one; just sharing some additional info from a perhaps larger perspective.

[CodeMaster]

Another group of players I failed to consider is those using screen readers (I'm sure there are at least a few).

At least on an OOC level, I prefer to be courteous to other players, but I also don't want to rein in anyone's creative freedom.  Definitely some food for thought in this thread.

[Iiyola]

Hell doesn't exist in Zalanthas, yet i see plenty of people say: "Hell I'd do it like this or that."

[HavokBlue]

Hell is a word I try to avoid using for precisely that reason.

[BadSkeelz]

Hell doesn't exist in Zalanthas, yet i see plenty of people say: "Hell I'd do it like this or that."

Debatable.

Hellpits of Suk-Krath - Hell.

Can't have hellpits without hell. There's no concept of a place of eternal punishment that I'm aware of, but there might be concepts of a place worse than Zalanthas.

[RogueGunslinger]

I'm too used to krath and drov to stop using them in these ways.

Krath I usually use synonymous with god. "Krath-damned."(perhaps short for "damned to the hellpits of krath"?) But sometimes just the singular "Krath." for "fuck." or "shit."

Drov is usually hell.

[Iiyola]

I'd say 'hell-pits' are just an expression, 'hell' would actually be a place.