Balancing Language Real/Zalanthian

[Kol]

How do you guys balance modern language and speech patterns from what's appropriate IG? Do you have a mental list of 'NO!' words? A physical one? When thinking about what's suitable for your character to say, do any of your speech patterns come into play? Do you have to check yourself before you wreck yourself with modern 'buzz-words'?


The Busty, short-short wearing youth says, in Bieber-accented American 'Ah'll be goin' ou' now Amos, Malik's gonna be loosin' 'is 'ead terday!'

The burly, chitin-armored Mul says, in tribal-accented sirhish, 'Yheaaaaa baby! I'm buzzin'! Gonna slide in my whip to the burger join' an watch some bitches twerk it!'

[HavokBlue]

common sense


and nobody talks like that in real life

[cnemus]

common sense


and nobody talks like that in real life

It's only truly common if everyone has it and yes, some people do talk like that in real life. I'm not trying to be snarky, but I would also very much like to know what sort of words/phrasing don't fit. 

[HavokBlue]

Kol's example featuring a presumably intoxicated individual declaring that they're going to get in their car and drive to a restaurant that features both hamburgers and women who are "twerking it". It is a contextually improbable jumble of slang from a variety of subcultures. Zalanthas has alcohol! Mild intoxication causes a buzzing sensation! 'Buzzing it' is probably okay! Zalanthas does not have cars, hamburgers, or twerking back-up dancers! The rest of these things are probably not okay!

It should not be super hard to make logical assumptions about words or phrases you are unsure about. Nobody can give you a list because nobody is going to catalog every instance of modern slang and colloquial speech to explain the contexts in which they may (or more likely, may not be) appropriate to use in game.


If you're really caught up in the moment and can't decide if it's appropriate to use words or phrases like "twerk" or "slide in my whip" in game, you can contact a Helper on Helpchat where they will hopefully respond with the following image:

[cnemus]

Thank you Havok for outlining a logical formula for evaluating words and phrases for inclusion in appropriate slang. A full catalog is not required, but creating a few helpful tips to reference, like your second post included, can help get everyone on the same page. Logic is not universal, it is a learned methodology.

[Marauder Moe]

I think most people actually do have a good sense of what is and isn't setting-appropriate.

Just sometimes people like to slip in little OOC-ish anachronistic jokes, with varying degrees of tact.

[Nyr]

Tactful:  You see the black moon and make the "that's no moon" joke the very first time you see it.

Not tactful:  you emote doing the Monster Mash.

[MeTekillot]

Is the Monster Mash appropriate if it is indeed a graveyard smash?

[Kol]

Is the Monster Mash appropriate if it is indeed a graveyard smash?

Better to ask forgiveness than permission, no?

Havok, obviously, I'm not expecting a wagon (the whip, in this instance) To roll up outside the Gaj, twerking breeds and all, with all youthful exuberance, and start popping buzzwords. Maybe my lack of a hashtag or /sarcasm made it difficult to convey my humour?

What I am after though is a widening of vocabulary, maybe I should have made that clear, and I apologise if I didn't. However, I have caught myself a few times having to delete and rethink a few words that I'd use in everyday life:- Dude, awesome, epic, you're a foot (leg-end, ledgend), bro, holmes, chicka, wicked....you get the idea. A few of those words, in the right context, would be acceptable, it was an epic battle, as opposed to the battle was epic....however, some are not, dude, for instance, would have no place in Zalanthas, and I often find myself at a loss for other, replaceable and acceptable words, such as pal, that are not part of my regular spoken vocabulary.

Yes, common sense does have a play, and most, if not all players are generally good enough to realise what's acceptable and whats not. What I'd like to see is suggestions of common words that have a place in modern speech, but are not in a zalanthian setting, and maybe a few examples of replacements that would be.

Dude: -> Pal, buddy, bud, friend.....and then I run short.....

Hope that helps!

[HavokBlue]

dude/bro/brah -> bruv

Try looking up examples of archaic slang that would maybe not be out of place in Zalanthas.

Example - half the Rinthi PCs you'll ever encounter speak like they just walked out of London's West End circa 1860.

[Reiloth]

I've personally used british/cockney accents/words before, and even southern Texas accent/words before. Whatever makes the character seem more alive. A few choice words can really 'stick' and make the character appear real.

[BadSkeelz]

Occasionally (when tired or distracted) I call people dudes. I'm not proud for it.

When I'm actually on my game, I try my best to avoid words and phrases that depend heavily on metal or water imagery. When trying something for the first time in a long time, I'm not "rusty," I'm "stale." I don't "fish around" in my belt for something, I "rummage." Nothing too major.

[Reiloth]

The funny thing is Dude might apply to ranchers or farm-people...Duderancher as it were.

But yeah it is pretty jarring. The other jarring word I find is 'Awesome'.

[Voular]

Biggest pet-peeve I have is the whole adding another layer of accent on your already coded accent, if you understand what I mean. You already have the -rinthi tag, don't need to make it further incomprehensible to my lazy ass to read your text!

[Patuk]

Labyrinthi, especially the elves, should speak ebonics. That is all.

[Symphony]

How sad. "Sorry, we cannot tell modern day slang from something appropriate for a post apocalyptic world." Please. Recruit more players who don't read documentation.

Fo sho, homie!  

[HavokBlue]

I've personally used british/cockney accents/words before, and even southern Texas accent/words before. Whatever makes the character seem more alive. A few choice words can really 'stick' and make the character appear real.

If it seemed like I was being snarky about this bit, I'm guilty of this with like 99% of my rinthers

Labyrinthi, especially the elves, should speak ebonics. That is all.

can't tell if intentional subtle racism or unintentional subtle racism

[Fujikoma]

I say what I feel like. If I think it will get a laugh, I'll do it. That said, I have to think long and hard sometimes to avoid words or concepts involving things that would be alien to Zalanthas, like, any metal other than copper (though, with gold and silver dyes, it's somewhat confusing), religion, taking a bath, and many other topics that would somehow not mesh with the setting. Not going to say I'm good at it, but I do put some effort into it.

[wizturbo]

Biggest pet-peeve I have is the whole adding another layer of accent on your already coded accent, if you understand what I mean. You already have the -rinthi tag, don't need to make it further incomprehensible to my lazy ass to read your text!

This is a pet peeve of mine as well.  All it does it makes it hard to understand what someone is saying.  Word choice can go just as far to indicate your character doesn't speak well, without the horrible eye-sore.

The exception to this is speech impedements, adding an accent that isn't coded (like its your tribe thing), etc.

[Marauder Moe]

There's a difference between "accent" and "dialect".

Coded accents are just that; accents.  I think it's highly appropriate for players to evoke dialect in their text as well.

(That said, I wouldn't be opposed to people coming up with community standard English analogs for Zalanthas dialects.)

[HavokBlue]

I say what I feel like. If I think it will get a laugh, I'll do it. That said, I have to think long and hard sometimes to avoid words or concepts involving things that would be alien to Zalanthas, like, any metal other than copper (though, with gold and silver dyes, it's somewhat confusing), religion, taking a bath, and many other topics that would somehow not mesh with the setting. Not going to say I'm good at it, but I do put some effort into it.

I'm not sure where you're getting the impression that copper is the only metal in Zalanthas. Take a look at the rings of Templars and Nobles.

[Talia]

I'm not sure where you're getting the impression that copper is the only metal in Zalanthas. Take a look at the rings of Templars and Nobles.

Or even that giant steel dragon in Allanak. My pet theory: Tek is actually an alchemist. The whole copper mine thing was just a big troll on Muk. "lol ur fighting me for copper dude look at my steel dragon"

[BadSkeelz]

Tek's tower is also apparently plated in gold.

[Patuk]

Labyrinthi, especially the elves, should speak ebonics. That is all.

can't tell if intentional subtle racism or unintentional subtle racism

Neither, certainly no more racist than your own remark about the labyrinth.

[Fujikoma]

I say what I feel like. If I think it will get a laugh, I'll do it. That said, I have to think long and hard sometimes to avoid words or concepts involving things that would be alien to Zalanthas, like, any metal other than copper (though, with gold and silver dyes, it's somewhat confusing), religion, taking a bath, and many other topics that would somehow not mesh with the setting. Not going to say I'm good at it, but I do put some effort into it.

I'm not sure where you're getting the impression that copper is the only metal in Zalanthas. Take a look at the rings of Templars and Nobles.

I was under the impression that commoners weren't supposed to look directly at nobles out of respect, much less would an elf be wise to go around eying signets.

[CodeMaster]

When I came to RPIs I thought it was extremely cool that people would put in the work to add an accent to their character.

Also a big fan of how Irvine Welsh expresses dialect in, e.g., Trainspotting (that book takes a long time to warm up to before you can actually read it at a normal pace).

"Ah wanted the radge tae jist fuck off ootay ma visage, tae go oan his ain, n jist leave us."

It's not everyone's cup of tea, but come on - there's far more egregious things people could be doing that are more deserving of being your biggest pet peeve.

[HavokBlue]

I wish people wouldn't interpret using the look command as staring directly at somebody.

If my PC is completely naked, and you don't use the look command, you have no idea. If my PC is wearing a magical necklace of mummified dicks, and it's flashing all the colors of the rainbow, you don't know unless you use the look command.

[Fujikoma]

I wish people wouldn't interpret using the look command as staring directly at somebody.

If my PC is completely naked, and you don't use the look command, you have no idea. If my PC is wearing a magical necklace of mummified dicks, and it's flashing all the colors of the rainbow, you don't know unless you use the look command.

I enjoy the immersion of my PC having no idea what these things look like. Also, if you're a noble or Templar, completely naked except for your necklace of mummified dicks, I should likely be running the other way as fast as possible.

[nauta]

I wish people wouldn't interpret using the look command as staring directly at somebody.

If my PC is completely naked, and you don't use the look command, you have no idea. If my PC is wearing a magical necklace of mummified dicks, and it's flashing all the colors of the rainbow, you don't know unless you use the look command.

Probably the wrong thread, but + a million.  Although I've played other muds that didn't echo a look, and that was annoying, since you couldn't tell if the people in the room were AFK or just super creepy.  I like having look echo, in other words, but I wish people would take a look to be nothing more than a cursory glance, unless one adds emotes like 'LOOK TEMPLAR [ogling]'

[valeria]

I don't see any problem with using real terms for actions.  My character might fish for something in a bag or belt.  It's an emote, it's not character to character speech, I'm describing to another player what my character looks like.

On the other hand, I'm probably not going to use "fishing" as a word in speech.  But if If I do, I probably mean trawling a disemboweled breed along behind a silt skimmer. 

[solera]

Gold and silver are almost pure color words to my PC's. If they did look at a silver ring, they'd see a Metal ring that was a shiny silver colour.

And..."Mate".

[Voular]

When I came to RPIs I thought it was extremely cool that people would put in the work to add an accent to their character.

Also a big fan of how Irvine Welsh expresses dialect in, e.g., Trainspotting (that book takes a long time to warm up to before you can actually read it at a normal pace).

"Ah wanted the radge tae jist fuck off ootay ma visage, tae go oan his ain, n jist leave us."

It's not everyone's cup of tea, but come on - there's far more egregious things people could be doing that are more deserving of being your biggest pet peeve.

Not really. English is already my fourth language. Making me pause to try and decipher what your character said, then deciding if MY character understands it, before proceeding with a scene is jarrig and brings me out of it. And who wants to play the same asshole who goes around telling people to stop talking with a sock in their mouth? If your character has more ' in a sentence than actual vowels, go to the god damn vowel store. I know certain people want to portray rough and tumble, but there's better ways of doing it than trying to type out some sort of texas-cockney accent that makes no damn sense. I came to play a game that was beautiful in its language. So yes, it is one of my biggest issues with players.

[Marauder Moe]

I don't think players have any particular guaranteed right to understand what my characters are saying.

[Voular]

I got a PM about my post. I'll transcribe some of my response to it, and perhaps my opinion won't come out as jackassy.

Do not take my post as something directed at anyone I am currently playing with. I am perfectly fine in understanding even the most convoluted of ingame accents and dialects. I was simply arguing a point I felt should be made. But I wrote pev-peeve because it's simply something trivial to be annoyed at. And you as a player doing something that is not against any rules, and for you increases your fun exponentially should not back down because I find it occasionally annoying to read 'ello guvernah.

Do not change. Do not back down. Handle it IC. If you make this choice, stick with it. Do not let moderate opinions from one player sway you in any way. I am simply playing devil's advocate. I am not attacking anyone.

[whitt]

It raises an interesting point though

The code already tacks on "in rinthi-accented" or "tribal" or "northern" or whatever.

Should it be necessary to mangle words (I do it myself) to get over that your character isn't using proper verbiage?

When what is being spoken is truly unintelligible, (eg a different language) the code handles that already.

So, hmmm...  has me thinking.

[Fujikoma]

It raises an interesting point though

The code already tacks on "in rinthi-accented" or "tribal" or "northern" or whatever.

Should it be necessary to mangle words (I do it myself) to get over that your character isn't using proper verbiage?

When what is being spoken is truly unintelligible, (eg a different language) the code handles that already.

So, hmmm...  has me thinking.

I would think it depends on your wisdom score and your background. In the past, I've heard some PCs surmise that due to the nature of my breed's speech, that the human half must have been highborn, so I try to tone it down a bit, you know, it's like, a subtle cue that "Hey dude, I know you're new, but you're really making it hard to believe in your character and that's harming my immersion.".

[whitt]

I would think it depends on your wisdom score and your background. In the past, I've heard some PCs surmise that due to the nature of my breed's speech, that the human half must have been highborn, so I try to tone it down a bit, you know, it's like, a subtle cue that "Hey dude, I know you're new, but you're really making it hard to believe in your character and that's harming my immersion.".

Vocabulary is one thing.  To your point on queues above.

However, simply replacing letters with lettahs and adding the accent bah typin' da wurds like dis?  That's gotta mess with some folks.

[Drone]

However, simply replacing letters with lettahs and adding the accent bah typin' da wurds like dis?  That's gotta mess with some folks.

It's a bit annoying, but I honestly wouldn't mind it so much if at least the accents remained internally consistent. I can't count how many times I've read someone typing out their accent in this way and can't determine exactly what they're trying to emulate. It's like the accent will shift anywhere from bad Cockney to US southern to Russian to whatever within a sentence or two.

[bcw81]

I feel there's a moderate difference between the following:
"Oi, get the feck over 'ere y' krathdamn arsewad."
and
"Oi, geht the fehk ovah 'ere yeh krathham ahswahd."

The former, in my opinion, is just fine. You're uing apostraphies to show how your character is leaving off on pronouncing certain parts of words, and it gets the overall gist of how one speaks across. The latter however seems to just be changing the spelling of every word they can possibly imagine to try and get every phonetic spot on, and while I like the concept, it's highly annoying and doesn't offer any immersion.

[Fujikoma]

However, simply replacing letters with lettahs and adding the accent bah typin' da wurds like dis?  That's gotta mess with some folks.

It's a bit annoying, but I honestly wouldn't mind it so much if at least the accents remained internally consistent. I can't count how many times I've read someone typing out their accent in this way and can't determine exactly what they're trying to emulate. It's like the accent will shift anywhere from bad Cockney to US southern to Russian to whatever within a sentence or two.

... I think you're possibly expecting Zalanthan people to conform to real-world norms, imposing OOC expectations on them. It's a fantasy world, if you can't understand what the player is saying, then there's an easy solution, ask them what the fuck they're saying. Sirihish is not english, there aren't enough documents to establish language concepts that need to be enforced on how people speak, save maybe tribals, and the player is putting effort into playing their PC as they perceive them, even if it annoys you. I've encountered some glaring speech problems in PCs before that would simply cause people to ignore them, did it impact my immersion when they spoke? Yes. But I decided to play with them anyway because, well, someone has to, and playing along with them led to some fun plotlines, that I otherwise would not experience. I also had the chance to provide a good example of what I would like to see from them, what would help me to understand them, because of patience. Attacking the RP of other players on the boards with generic statements is enough to make newer players, who are making an effort to RP with you, question themselves, and possibly consider finding another mud, and this would be saddening.

I know several times, when I was newer, I looked at the GDB and could SWEAR people were talking badly of my PC, but I really don't give a crap, I play to have fun, anyone who doesn't like it can utilize the next mastercraft I'm planning.

EDIT:

I feel there's a moderate difference between the following:
"Oi, get the feck over 'ere y' krathdamn arsewad."
and
"Oi, geht the fehk ovah 'ere yeh krathham ahswahd."

The former, in my opinion, is just fine. You're uing apostraphies to show how your character is leaving off on pronouncing certain parts of words, and it gets the overall gist of how one speaks across. The latter however seems to just be changing the spelling of every word they can possibly imagine to try and get every phonetic spot on, and while I like the concept, it's highly annoying and doesn't offer any immersion.

Haha! Maybe person two only has advanced sirihish. Been hunting in the Pah, or something?

[MeTekillot]

I think you are being paranoid.

[Harmless]

I feel there's a moderate difference between the following:
"Oi, get the feck over 'ere y' krathdamn arsewad."
and
"Oi, geht the fehk ovah 'ere yeh krathham ahswahd."

The former, in my opinion, is just fine. You're uing apostraphies to show how your character is leaving off on pronouncing certain parts of words, and it gets the overall gist of how one speaks across. The latter however seems to just be changing the spelling of every word they can possibly imagine to try and get every phonetic spot on, and while I like the concept, it's highly annoying and doesn't offer any immersion.

I like your examples. I tend to see a lot more of the upper example. I read speech like it in arma very easily now, for years.

[nauta]

I feel there's a moderate difference between the following:
"Oi, get the feck over 'ere y' krathdamn arsewad."
and
"Oi, geht the fehk ovah 'ere yeh krathham ahswahd."

The former, in my opinion, is just fine. You're uing apostraphies to show how your character is leaving off on pronouncing certain parts of words, and it gets the overall gist of how one speaks across. The latter however seems to just be changing the spelling of every word they can possibly imagine to try and get every phonetic spot on, and while I like the concept, it's highly annoying and doesn't offer any immersion.

I like your examples. I tend to see a lot more of the upper example. I read speech like it in arma very easily now, for years.

Actually, both examples strike me as perfectly plausible (and different) accents: if you sound out the second, it is definitely a different accent, more aspirated, than the first.  

I get the argument coming from the ESL people that such accents are tedious, but for my part, I find accented language to be one of the neater aspects of the game: it is a text-based story telling game, in English, after all, and accents are nice ways of making a character come to life in a creative and vivid way.  

As to the "it already flags it as accented" point: not all rinthers speak the same, just as someone might say: oh, that's a British accent, but the actual pronunciation of the words, and word choices are wildly different from area to area.

As to the topic, one point I have is that I think most of us get it that anachronisms aren't cool, but sometimes we slip up.  What I dislike is when IG people make a big deal out of it, like: Oh, what's a rainbow?  Just move on, translate it into your head into the Zalanthan idiom, and if it is egregious and consistent fire off a player complaint.

tl;dr: keep being creative in how you speak!  It's awesome.  (IMHO)

EDITED TO ADD: I feel the same way about trying to RP out an OOC mistake like "rainbow" IG as I do about the whole "omigod ma weaponz / torchez are out" problem that pops up from time to time.  This is my pet peeve, maybe, but there's nothing MORE silly than an IG conversation about why somebody had their weapon out.  Naw, just do something subtle if it bothers you, like:

em a couple patrons notice %bob flickering torch as me sits quietly not bringing it up whatsoever because that would be so silly.

I also sometimes will just use a certain guild's skill to move items I don't think should be in the inventory of other players into their packs and latch them back up. Is that going too far? :-)

[Talia]

I get the argument coming from the ESL people that such accents are tedious,

We actually have players that I know of who do not speak English, rather their command of the language is entirely written. So I'm not sure it's completely just an argument that it's tedious for them if we incorporate additional accents; if what you're saying is that a reader should sound out the words and that's just as good, I'm not sure that's a workable solution for all players. These players may not be able to understand what you're saying at all if you're departing that much from written English.

Not to mention that we have native-English players from (I think) every English-speaking country across the world, and differences of pronunciation even within English can be pretty variable.

Not an official staff pronouncement, of course, and I wouldn't expect us to ever make one; just sharing some additional info from a perhaps larger perspective.

[CodeMaster]

Another group of players I failed to consider is those using screen readers (I'm sure there are at least a few).

At least on an OOC level, I prefer to be courteous to other players, but I also don't want to rein in anyone's creative freedom.  Definitely some food for thought in this thread.

[Iiyola]

Hell doesn't exist in Zalanthas, yet i see plenty of people say: "Hell I'd do it like this or that."

[HavokBlue]

Hell is a word I try to avoid using for precisely that reason.

[BadSkeelz]

Hell doesn't exist in Zalanthas, yet i see plenty of people say: "Hell I'd do it like this or that."

Debatable.

Hellpits of Suk-Krath - Hell.

Can't have hellpits without hell. There's no concept of a place of eternal punishment that I'm aware of, but there might be concepts of a place worse than Zalanthas.

[RogueGunslinger]

I'm too used to krath and drov to stop using them in these ways.

Krath I usually use synonymous with god. "Krath-damned."(perhaps short for "damned to the hellpits of krath"?) But sometimes just the singular "Krath." for "fuck." or "shit."

Drov is usually hell.

[Iiyola]

I'd say 'hell-pits' are just an expression, 'hell' would actually be a place.

[Kol]

Religion in Zalanthas is something I think is debatable, do the people who worship the sorc kings think if they're unfaithful, they'll be sent to a hell? I mean, is there a zalanthian heaven? Or is Drov a Zalanthian heaven because of all the shade? Would that make being sent to Krath a hell because there would be no shade?

I'm also guilty of screwing with words just for an effect of accent or dialect, and the responses in here have given me something to think about.

Keep it up guys! 

[bcw81]

That one is a really 'find out why people say this kind of thing' IC deal. There are definitely reasons behind it, but those reasons are probably as known to your character as some other very intrinsic things in the lore.

[flurry]

I think a good test of whether language is too modern or anachronistic is asking how would you react to an author using similar descriptions in a novel of a similar genre/setting. For instance, in a fantasy novel, you wouldn't see something described as being loud as a jet engine (made up example; I can't imagine someone using that in-game). It doesn't matter if it's dialogue or not, in that case, because if jet engines aren't part of the world, it would just seem out of place to make that comparison.

More modern slang (I recall a discussion about 'facepalm') strikes me as more of a matter of tone. I can understand someone doing that to have more of an irreverent edge to their writing, but personally I think that is better done sparingly.

[Armaddict]

I worry more about whether or not I have to struggle to type what I'm trying to say.  In the end, I'm communicating with someone, and that's what I care about.

Second languages are often spoken so properly as to sound strange to native speakers of that tongue.
Accents, in game, emulate locations but not mother tongues.
Interpretations on how people will or should talk will vary widely depending on the beholder.

Again, in the end, all I care about is that you're typing words to me that I can understand.  My immersion in the game is almost completely non-reliant on envisioning what every PC I encounter sounds like.