Resources and Survival

[CodeMaster]

Paradoxically, I don't think free food/water is actually an incentive to play in any clan.  (I've said this before, but it bears restating.)

I disagree with you. I think that for some players, on some characters, it definitely is an incentive. It is an incentive to me when I'm playing a PC for whom it is an incentive; it's not an incentive to me when I'm playing a PC for whom it is not an incentive.

Imagine if your clan didn't have free water.

Some clans still don't have free water. It used to be that most clans didn't have free water. I remember playing in the AoD as a Sergeant when there was no free water (for the recruits), and to be honest it sucked. Guess who ended up doing most of the water hauling, and/or directing others to do it? Yeah, the Sergeant. That's a terrible use of a Sergeant's time. There was no sense of accomplishment to it; it was just part of the routine among a ton of other routine crap that needed to get done. Constant routine crap doesn't make for a happy leader nor for happy minions.

Clan life does not need to devolve back to constant scrabbling for the basics. It just needs more murder, corruption, and betrayal. Those are the fun parts of the game, not basic resource fulfillment (that is unrelated to actual plot or IC desperation).

Good points, and I defer to you on a lot of that stuff.  Maybe water was the wrong vector for the point I was trying to make.

I'll take another (back)stab at it: just because your character is loving the easy life doesn't mean you yourself aren't considering retiring the schmuck or leaving your clan because it's become kind of "blah".

Let me put it another way: if you remove all strife and reduce the game's resemblance to "a harsh low-technology desert" from the clanned, then I hypothesize they might begin to suffer from a kind of bored affluenza.  Not just IC, but (moreso) OOC. 

[Norcal]

Are kagors, real life honey badgers?

I thought that Zoans PCs fill the role of the honey badger IC? Is Fridays PCs  badger for honey quite a bit too.

Sorry..this post was meant for the RAT thread.  My connection was giving me fits yesterday and it somehow ended up here. Beg pardon.

[James de Monet]

I thought that Zoans PCs fill the role of the honey badger IC? Is Fridays PCs  badger for honey quite a bit too.

[Barzalene]

Paradoxically, I don't think free food/water is actually an incentive to play in any clan.  (I've said this before, but it bears restating.)

I disagree with you. I think that for some players, on some characters, it definitely is an incentive. It is an incentive to me when I'm playing a PC for whom it is an incentive; it's not an incentive to me when I'm playing a PC for whom it is not an incentive.

Imagine if your clan didn't have free water.

Some clans still don't have free water. It used to be that most clans didn't have free water. I remember playing in the AoD as a Sergeant when there was no free water (for the recruits), and to be honest it sucked. Guess who ended up doing most of the water hauling, and/or directing others to do it? Yeah, the Sergeant. That's a terrible use of a Sergeant's time. There was no sense of accomplishment to it; it was just part of the routine among a ton of other routine crap that needed to get done. Constant routine crap doesn't make for a happy leader nor for happy minions.

Clan life does not need to devolve back to constant scrabbling for the basics. It just needs more murder, corruption, and betrayal. Those are the fun parts of the game, not basic resource fulfillment (that is unrelated to actual plot or IC desperation).

I agree with most of what Gimfalisette says here, but not the part about constant scrabbling for the basics. Many of us were lured here by the promise of a "post apocalyptic harsh desert planet." On the other hand that is a hard balance to reach. After all it has to be a playable harsh desert planet. But I think a little constant scrabble could be a good thing.

[Delirium]

Yeah - some of us like the coded goals. One of the draws of this game has always been that it has something for everyone's playstyle.  Though the achievers do seem to get punished the most, heh.

[Gimfalisette]

I'll take another (back)stab at it: just because your character is loving the easy life doesn't mean you yourself aren't considering retiring the schmuck or leaving your clan because it's become kind of "blah".

Let me put it another way: if you remove all strife and reduce the game's resemblance to "a harsh low-technology desert" from the clanned, then I hypothesize they might begin to suffer from a kind of bored affluenza.  Not just IC, but (moreso) OOC. 

I agree with most of what Gimfalisette says here, but not the part about constant scrabbling for the basics. Many of us were lured here by the promise of a "post apocalyptic harsh desert planet." On the other hand that is a hard balance to reach. After all it has to be a playable harsh desert planet. But I think a little constant scrabble could be a good thing.

Yeah - some of us like the coded goals. One of the draws of this game has always been that it has something for everyone's playstyle.  Though the achievers do seem to get punished the most, heh.

I think what happens with most veterans is that we long for those days when we were newbies and everything WAS harsh because we had no OOC knowledge to go on. We're no longer those newbies, and we know about the various coded ways to make plenty of money with not too much risk. But newbies are still newbies, and everything we would propose doing that would make the game more codedly difficult for veterans (especially insofar as it involves basic food and water acquisition) would make the game exponentially harder for newbies.

The solution for veterans is to deliberately make the game hard on ourselves. Yes, we could join clans for the free food and water, we could go engage in that relatively low-risk way of making money that isn't far out of the gates...but we don't have to.

What makes clans attractive is really a different subject. Really it boils down to engaging PC leadership + player-driven plots (by leaders and minions) + staff attention sprinkled around the clan + some larger staff-driven plots. When a few of those things come together, you'll have the Clan Of The Moment. (Though IMO engaging PC leadership is a required element. No one wants to play in a clan with un-engaging, inactive PC leaders.)

[Kol]

That was awesome.

[Delirium]

Vets can play hardmode all they like - and I certainly do - but that doesn't mean that the current situation can't be looked at and adjusted. Clans are far from perfect. My ideal world - which I recognize is a constant balancing act rather than something you magickally reach - is a place where clan members can contribute meaningfully to the coded as well as the virtual world, and where coded clan perks mean more than just "free food and water" - coded clan perks mean better training resources and other tangible benefits.  Otherwise you will always see a gap between what clans "should" be and what clans "actually" are, because right now, if you go clanned, you are essentially agreeing to sacrifice coded character progression for more theoretical access to plots and interaction. Frankly I have had plenty of plots and interaction with the characters who live almost entirely in the desert, and I'm sure others have as well.

We really need to look at what draws players to certain types of roles and stop being so afraid of the coded portion of the MUD - RPI does not mean MUSH. It's okay to raise skills and it's okay to use your skills to the best of your ability, as long as it makes sense in the world and for your character. It's okay to want those skills to mean you can contribute to plots and situations in a meaningful way, we don't all have to win the game just using sirihish and the Way. Even if we could.

But this is going off into a tangent and so I'll just say that yes, I wish clan resources weren't infinite and grubby hunters actually could contribute in meaningful ways with or without an available PC merchant-class character to use up all their hunting spoils.

[Gimfalisette]

We really need to look at what draws players to certain types of roles and stop being so afraid of the coded portion of the MUD - RPI does not mean MUSH. It's okay to raise skills and it's okay to use your skills to the best of your ability, as long as it makes sense in the world and for your character. It's okay to want those skills to mean you can contribute to plots and situations in a meaningful way, we don't all have to win the game just using sirihish and the Way. Even if we could.

But this is going off into a tangent and so I'll just say that yes, I wish clan resources weren't infinite and grubby hunters actually could contribute in meaningful ways with or without an available PC merchant-class character to use up all their hunting spoils.

If a PC leader in a clan wants to engage the clan in tasks like getting water or getting food, they can do that. There's no need to require this, and in fact it's a very bad idea to require it--because what happens when the PC leader needs to take a week off, or to store their PC and do something else? Minions are left with no organized way to get food and water because there's no leadership to do that.

For me, when I'm playing a PC leader? I'm going to find things that are more fun and interesting for my minions to do--yes, things which involve coded skills--than acquiring the basics. (And resupplying a clan with water in most cases will not involve any coded skill usage, so that's pretty moot.)

And now we've apparently moved from discussing life basics to coded skill use, which is indeed a tangent. I don't know where this idea that anyone is "afraid of the coded portion of the MUD" is coming from, that's pretty out of left field. Most clans have a lot of structure for allowing or requiring PCs to use their basic coded skills. It's not like staff is standing in the way of that, nor are PC leaders making sure their minions don't use coded skills, so I don't even really know where this idea is coming from.

[Adhira]

Working on benefits, especially coded benefits, is part of the larger scale project we're undergoing right now.  You can see it small ways with us putting new creatures into the world - we're trying to flesh out the coded aspect of the world at large to make it more adequately reflect what is written in backstory and documentation.

For clans staff have been working for some time, at an individual level, looking at the various perks each clan has as a whole. At ways to progress in that clan in a meaningful way, and at implementing real 'rewards' (clan pay, noble stipends etc were recently shifted upward in a more dramatic manner).  One of the ways we're doing that is through perks associated with certain clans. For instance the GMH clans enjoy free public stabling in Allanak (in the new stableyard paid for and maintained with GMH coin). Housing is another perk that we've introduced, certain clans have access to Nenyuk apartment blocks that others don't. They get to rent apartments that have not only reduced rents but some have roaming guards, better locks, others have communal areas that feature things such as a large crafting space that will soon house advance in room tools.  We're looking for more ways that your clan status = social status=advantages.

There's a lot more we can do here.

I will note that we recently changed some clans to have 'lesser resources' and it was met with some disappointment and objections by clan members. So this is a balancing act, and not one we're always going to get right, or get right for everybody. Mostly I just want to point out that discussion is great, go for it. Staff aren't locked into some dreamworld where we believe this game is perfect, or that our clan system is the best ever. We can and will change things over time.

[MeTekillot]

nerf kurac, spice op

[Malken]

Not being able to progress combat-wise (code-wise) in most combat-oriented clans is one of the biggest shame of Armageddon right now, I think.

Adding new creatures into the world is super great but doesn't it also just give more reasons to play an indie if you want to be a great fighter?

One of the last combat-oriented characters I've played, I played him whacking stuff in the grasslands for a few weeks (maybe three or so?) before joining up Winrothol and I managed to beat everyone in sparring, both within Winrothol as well as the Legion PCs, including the Corporal at the time. Heck, they even invited the Sergeant over to see how well I'd do against him and I lost by a fraction only. I think they even brought a half-giant before the Sergeant, too, heh.

[Adhira]

Adding new creatures into the world is super great but doesn't it also just give more reasons to play an indie if you want to be a great fighter?

I've seen more clan groups riding out and slaughtering than indies.   Is the argument then not to improve the wilds because it's a benefit to indies? Shouldn't the argument be that clan leaders need to work (with staff) to find better ways to take their folks out and improve them. If improving combat is your goal for this game, of course.

[BadSkeelz]

but someone has to protect us from the jozhal population1!

[Malken]

Adding new creatures into the world is super great but doesn't it also just give more reasons to play an indie if you want to be a great fighter?

I've seen more clan groups riding out and slaughtering than indies.   Is the argument then not to improve the wilds because it's a benefit to indies? Shouldn't the argument be that clan leaders need to work (with staff) to find better ways to take their folks out and improve them. If improving combat is your goal for this game, of course.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I think the changes are great and it does help. I would just prefer if there were a way to improve combat efficiently while remaining inside, in the clan, if going outside isn't really what your clan would be doing much of (I'm thinking Legion, Militia, Borsail, Tor? - Some examples) It seems like the clans have been slowly changing IC and OOC to give them reasons to go outside more often, too.

But I also can't really think of a way, unfortunately, beside better sparring dummies and that's mostly all the bonuses without any penalties, so I know you guys are kinda against it.

The Arena in Tuluk was sorta nice for it but it's been removed for good reasons, I'm sure, but yeah, that's pretty much the only thing I can think of.

I think I -may- have a solution but I'll have to wait till I'm not working to take the time to explain it better.

[CodeMaster]

I totally sympathize with points on both sides, but I guess it's clear which direction I lean.

Maybe this is a more poignant question though: There appears to be an ongoing push to incentivize people into moving their characters into staff-supported groups (i.e. clans), but what's the current "lowest class" clan in the game?

I realize there's not a uniform distribution of players across all clans, but it seems like the "high life" is a bit overrepresented.

[BadSkeelz]

Oh, don't get me wrong, I think the changes are great and it does help. I would just prefer if there were a way to improve combat efficiently while remaining inside, in the clan, if going outside isn't really what your clan would be doing much of (I'm thinking Legion, Militia, Borsail, Tor? - Some examples) It seems like the clans have been slowly changing IC and OOC to give them reasons to go outside more often, too.

On a serious note, and this is coming from someone who's still a complete newb in most all respects, but I an see why such a change in attitude would come about. For combat clans, the Cities are extremely safe. Even putting aside the wish to skill up, there's not a whole lot of places a clan could go and see combat within the walls. Allanak has the rinth, but taking your clan in there to beat up the natives is not a very good idea OOC or IC. I don't think Tuluk even has that much. If your character wants to fight, if you want to fight, your only option is to go outside.

[CodeMaster]

I will note that we recently changed some clans to have 'lesser resources' and it was met with some disappointment and objections by clan members. So this is a balancing act, and not one we're always going to get right, or get right for everybody. Mostly I just want to point out that discussion is great, go for it. Staff aren't locked into some dreamworld where we believe this game is perfect, or that our clan system is the best ever. We can and will change things over time.

Also wanted to chime in that I really appreciate this balancing act.  The number of variables you guys are juggling is insane - there's no clear procedure for optimizing the game into some global minima, but you guys are doing great.  Best MUD on the net.

[Harmless]

* Harmless wishes for a StaffWatch detector, so more thinks/feels can be typed with her precious ailing wpm when staff are actually watching to appreciate them!

* Harmless cracks painfully overused, crackageddon addicted wrists.

also: can the interesting discussion about struggle in zalanthas go to a new thread?

[LauraMars]

Done.

[Harmless]

Wow right after I asked for it. Like within a minute tops. Thanks LM!

[BadSkeelz]

This is a test post to see if my post gets flopped back to RAT too.

[Barzalene]

What if resources were scarcer but PCs on new accounts got extra coin or food or something or could wish up for the above or something?

[creeper386]

I always felt that a lot of struggle tended to come from where you are from or who you are more then anything. I play a character that's suitable for GMH or clanned life, life is easier. Play a delf or a rinther, lifes harder. Play anything in tuluk, pretty well set for life unless I do something stupid.

I think the problem comes in is having that struggle in a role that has a healthy amount of interaction. It's never fun to play a rinther during a time everyone is employed with noble houses as an example.

[nauta]

I always felt that a lot of struggle tended to come from where you are from or who you are more then anything. I play a character that's suitable for GMH or clanned life, life is easier. Play a delf or a rinther, lifes harder. Play anything in tuluk, pretty well set for life unless I do something stupid.

I think the problem comes in is having that struggle in a role that has a healthy amount of interaction. It's never fun to play a rinther during a time everyone is employed with noble houses as an example.

Actually, life is pretty easy for the average rinther: there's ways (without skills) to haul in some good cash in the narrows over time.   (I'm on the side of those who would like to see this "fixed" so things are a little harsher, however that happens.)