Changes to crafting tools.

[Inks]

I don't mind this at all. Basically the same as the cooking fire system. Although I remember that being finnicky from what counted as a fire.

[GithMaster]

Personally I think stone crafting, wood crafting, clothworking, etc should be separate from armor crafting tool making sword ceafting.

The material skills should be always there but go up with use. You work with wood weapons doesn't mean you've mastered bone swords.

It would be sweet also if recipes could use multiple crafting skills. Leatherworking and cloth working for sandcloth and leather armor.

[Norcal]

This change does not bother me, and could be really fun .  I think it makes sense to need tools to craft, and some items should require a specific tool, and not just any tool that gives a bump to the crafting skill being used.  I also agree that tools can be very hard to get. Requiring tools does not make crafting harder, but not being able to get the tools you need does make it harder and that is a problem that has existed since I have been playing.

So, if tools become more of a requirement, and tools are hard to find (sometimes), then this change could make crafting harder and less appealing. It does seem silly that in towns with multiple shops dedicated to selling weapons of every type that a simple leatherworking knife should be hard to find.

Fortunately there are plenty of easy fixes for this. The first would be to make basic tools available for purchase in the startup area, in the same way that new PCs can now buy other clothes or materials.

Another would be to change the way the toolmaking skill works. This is more complicated.  What I suggest would be allowing any PC with a particular crafting skill, to also be able to craft the tools needed for that skill.  The quality and type of tool available to be crafted would increase with the skill.

Another way would be for toolmaking to be one of the initial skills any merchant would get out of the box, instead of having to branch it.
I also think that tools with edges, should certainly degrade.  However they should be able to be repaired (sharpened).  A tool repair skill could be added, that one would get along with tool making.

Anyway, I think it will be a good change if applied in the right way.

[Ouroboros]

As someone that often plays crafters in some capacity or other, I'm definitely excited about this change.

While it might not address other problems the crafting system might or might not have, it's not meant to. It's meant to add a level of realism to certain crafts, and since these will be selectively implemented, I think it's going to do a great job of it. If this change was being introduced across the board on every recipe I'd probably feel differently, but it's good to know it's only going to be added where it's truly appropriate and not just to add a level of needless complexity or difficulty to the system as a whole.

Tool degradation for recipes that require them is also a nice touch, and I assume will be applied in an equally realistic fashion. Some tools wear out easier than others, by nature not just quality. And others last a lifetime, passing down through generations of use.

I have two questions thus far on the change, that perhaps a staff member can answer...

1) Past any tool requirements, will the inherent bonuses of tools remain in place as currently implemented?

2) Will tools degrade only when used by a recipe that requires them, or every time you craft with their bonus active?

Both questions assume that tools, at least those that aren't required by a given recipe, will continue to function as they have before. Meaning they'll have a passive bonus on them, and even if a quality/degradation counter is added to them, it will only be used when a recipe actively taps into that part of their code. If this is going to be implemented differently, perhaps that can be clarified?

Looking forward to answers, as well as testing this in-game!

[Nyr]

1) Past any tool requirements, will the inherent bonuses of tools remain in place as currently implemented?

Unless otherwise altered, yes.

2) Will tools degrade only when used by a recipe that requires them, or every time you craft with their bonus active?

At present, the former appears to be the case; tools will only have a chance of degrading when being used on recipes that require them.  Implementing on a wider scale is likely not intended for this release.

[solera]

I love this change.

BUT

A newly crafted tool

The tool shows signs of very heavy damage and hard use, and its functionality appears limited.

[Talia]

I love this change.

BUT

A newly crafted tool

The tool shows signs of very heavy damage and hard use, and its functionality appears limited.

All this means is that we haven't set a tool quality number for the tool yet. The issue about the ambiguous messages is something that's being looked at. For the most part, there are very few recipes yet that require any tool, so you should be able to go on crafting as you have been.

[Eukelade]

Actually, there is a quality level set for that tool, and while newly crafted tools can be considered to be of low quality (made with substandard materials, a cheap design, etc), the quality messages you're getting now are, I admit, a little too specific.  I'll see what I can do about that, but regardless, it's safe to assume that any newly crafted tool that has a message that makes it seem like it's a piece of shit actually is a piece of shit.

[Eyeball]

Maybe the toolmaking skill should be removed, and individual crafting skills should include being able to make the tools of their trade.

The separation of toolmaking from the trade is a modern invention, where high precision and even power tools are mass produced. You can bet the original makers of things knew their own tools.

[RogueGunslinger]

That's a great idea.

[Kol]

Maybe the toolmaking skill should be removed, and individual crafting skills should include being able to make the tools of their trade.

The separation of toolmaking from the trade is a modern invention, where high precision and even power tools are mass produced. You can bet the original makers of things knew their own tools.

Hell yes. I would love this!

However, to play DA on this:-

There are, to my knowledge, excluding tool making, around 20-25 crafting skills, across various categories, each one with a specific tool, sometimes multiple, lets say two each (this will balance out those skills that have three or four items for the job) That's roughly about 50 items in the codebase.

These would have to be sorted through, then added to each of the separate sub-guilds and guilds that would use such tools. Often, some tools overlap, that would mean duplicating he code.

I'm not a coder, and I assume such would have to be handled by a coder, but lets say just to cut and paste those bits of code would take roughly...three to five hours after you've located the files they need to go into, and transferred all the data. hen another three to five hours testing the code to make sure it won't crash or corrupt the game files.

That's ten hours tops a coder could have spent improving other much needed areas of the game, and that's just on moving and testing the code, let alone all the work that would need to be done to the documentation and helpfiles, as well as hashing it out on the IDB, getting it to and past approval, and having it signed of by Nyr or Adhira.

Total estimated time:- 15-20 hours.

On the other hand, there's a entire subguild dedicated to supplying these tools to craftsmen that is already implemented in game, and has just been given a much needed boost to it's utilization, as I can only recall ever seeing one PC use the subguild.

I'd like to see a few more people play the sub itself, and bring an extra aspect to the game, rather than remove it and spread it out amongst other subs, and let the coders work on coding more beasts, more weather echoes, updating old code, and moving the code to a much easier form to handle where improvements can be implemented a little easier and quicker than they currently are.

However, as I first stated, I love it!

[Incognito]

I've just logged into the game after a brief hiatus, and noticed that my various tools have different quality levels, ranging from:
Excellent
Decent
Average
Below Average
Terrible
Completely non-functional

Got me thinking, here are a few questions:

Question 1: Does the quality of a tool depend solely on the number of uses it has had? Or does it depend on the number of failed crafting attempts?

Question 2: Does the quality of a tool dictate how much of a crafting bonus you will get? Or does it simply dictate how many further uses you will get from that tool, at a constant "bonus to skill" level?

Question 3: Do tools used for different crafting trades deteriorate at the same rate?

Question 4: Do different tools used for the same crafting trade deteriorate at the same rate? (example: fletchery pick and straightening wrench, being used simultaneously, or individually)

Question 5: If a particular item mandatorily requires a certain tool to be used, to create it, will it require a minimum tool quality to show up as a possibly available crafting recipe?

Question 6: Would it be preferable for tools, to exhibit their quality (like lets say torches), instead of having to use the assess command to check the tool quality before/after each use:
an excellent quality hide scraper
a decent quality hide scraper
an average quality hide scraper
a below-average quality hide scraper
a terrible quality hide scraper
a completely non-functional quality hide scraper

Question 7: Does the quality of a tool dictate whether your crafting attempt will be successful or not? If so how?

[Nyr]

1. Neither, at least as far as I recall. See above from Talia.

2. See Talia's post.

3. The mechanics of that have not been revealed. If relevant, find out in game.

4. See 3.

5.  Both flags are optional so it depends on specific implementation.

6.  Neat idea.

7.  Nope.