As part of the continued incremental changes to crafting, crafting tools have received a little love!
This is the discussion thread, so get to discussing!
- Change to allow for some optional values on a recipe for a tool type required and quality required.
- When crafting it will look first in the player's equipment, then inventory then room, for a suitable tool of high enough quality.
- There is now a chance that hand held tools will degrade depending on the recipe's difficulty and and the character's abilities.
- Tools that degrade too far will break and need to be replaced.
- Certain permanent tools in the room will not degrade.
Thank you Nessalin for these continued crafting updates!
This makes meh happeh. :)
Awesome.
Nice.
Excellent. I'm with this all the way.
I'm -really- into this!
The one problem (loosely related) I have is that as a newbie, I often got into stupid (immersion breaking-ish) situations where I (as a player) had no idea which artifact was the right tool (sometimes I just didn't know, sometimes the sdesc/mdesc of the tool was vague) even though my PC would have totally known. Sometimes this would be solved by asking IG, which was a bit immersion breaking. But more often than not, I'd just fall back on the old virtual fletching tool and virtual knife, coupled with an emote, so I wouldn't break RP.
Easy enough solution: (1) have analyze tell you not only the ingredients but the tools and (2) IDEA/TYPO any tools that are so vague that it's hard to tell what they are good for. Maybe?
>assess (tool)
You're not wrong, though. People now may miss certain recipes because they can't find a fricken woodworking knife.
I really hate those knives.
Quote from: nauta on October 20, 2014, 12:14:41 PM
as a newbie, I often got into stupid (immersion breaking-ish) situations where I (as a player) had no idea which artifact was the right tool (sometimes I just didn't know, sometimes the sdesc/mdesc of the tool was vague)
Or just don't play characters who know things you don't know. Then join a GMH and have someone teach your character how to do stuff, then you'll know too. It's really OK to not know stuff, and to roleplay that out. In fact, it is a lot of fun and I highly recommend doing it, especially for veterans.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on October 20, 2014, 12:24:02 PM
Quote from: nauta on October 20, 2014, 12:14:41 PM
as a newbie, I often got into stupid (immersion breaking-ish) situations where I (as a player) had no idea which artifact was the right tool (sometimes I just didn't know, sometimes the sdesc/mdesc of the tool was vague)
Or just don't play characters who know things you don't know. Then join a GMH and have someone teach your character how to do stuff, then you'll know too. It's really OK to not know stuff, and to roleplay that out. In fact, it is a lot of fun and I highly recommend doing it, especially for veterans.
Yeah, that too, I totally agree. However, my experience (and what I've observed) offpeak with that has been... not the best, both in terms of finding a PC to actually enlist you and in terms of getting a PC around to teach.
Usually, the what-tool-is-it problem has been super minor, but anything to make offpeak people's lives a little easier is a plus, imho.
EDIT: Updated to add, that in almost -every- case I've figured it all out through the (a) HELPER chat, (b) once or twice a judicious use of WISH, (c) trial and error, and (d) a fellow PC.
The 'what tool to use' scenario is a common one that also annoys staff. We've got a method to manage this in the works, it should be in asap, I believe Nessalin has it up for peer review with the other coders. Essentially the analyze command will inform you if a recipe requires a tool and what that tool will be. Existing tools will be updated as we move to implement this since recipes will now require a certain tool of a certain quality, rather than the current model which is that a tool type will give a bonus to the skill.
Expect to see more vendors selling the lower quality type tools and new businesses that might rent out space in their crafting areas with access to their in room tools (or communal crafting spaces such as at the new GMH apartment building).
Quote from: Gimfalisette on October 20, 2014, 12:24:02 PM
It's really OK to not know stuff, and to roleplay that out. In fact, it is a lot of fun and I highly recommend doing it, especially for veterans.
I get the frustration, feel it myself, but I also know the joy Gimf's talking about above. The looks and comments I got as people watched one of my characters craft "cures" using spit and the palm of my hand. ;D Eventually he graduated to doing it on the bottomside of a clay mug. Stay classy Ginka!
Quote from: Adhira on October 20, 2014, 12:51:19 PM
...recipes will now require a certain tool of a certain quality, rather than the current model which is that a tool type will give a bonus to the skill.
So will crafters be able to use like a "compare" command to determine which of scraper A and scraper B is the hide-scraper of higher quality? And if so can weapon-using classes get a similar command to "compare" weapons for quality?
I don't really care for the concept of "businesses that rent out access to their work areas" for independent crafters. At least not if the idea is, "You pay fifty coins and get access to a backroom with tools and workbenches.". That seems like a WoW/MMO concept.
"You pay 30 gold pieces to use the crafting bench and produce some cotton pants of high quality!".
Now, if Nenyuk opened some apartments that were specifically geared towards housing and catering to artisans and those apartments happened to contain higher and lower quality "workrooms", that would be pretty sweet. If those warehouses you rent for 5,000 coins a year came with a high-quality workroom designed to cater to the most picky of artisans, that would be awesome.
:D Wonderful to see work continuing with crafty things. Thank you!
Quote from: Adhira on October 20, 2014, 12:51:19 PM
Expect to see more vendors selling the lower quality type tools.
Do you meant permanently stocking them?
Actually I like the situation the way it is. Relying to some extent on PC's to provide these, either on request or by putting them in the shops. I think crafters, (and cure makers) need more real customers to give them a reason for being. Looking for tools is a good way to introduce your new PC.
Off peak Luirs "resident" and I still preferred to pester PC's for a chisel.
I wouldn't mind seeing a craftable fletching pick. (To digress, I have searched the web for one of these and never found one)
Quote from: Desertman on October 20, 2014, 03:19:22 PM
I don't really care for the concept of "businesses that rent out access to their work areas" for independent crafters. At least not if the idea is, "You pay fifty coins and get access to a backroom with tools and workbenches.". That seems like a WoW/MMO concept.
"You pay 30 gold pieces to use the crafting bench and produce some cotton pants of high quality!".
Right now the only room rentals we have in the game do not work like that. You either rent as part of the apartment system or you rent until you leave it. If implemented, it would more than likely follow one of those two models.
Quote
Now, if Nenyuk opened some apartments that were specifically geared towards housing and catering to artisans and those apartments happened to contain higher and lower quality "workrooms", that would be pretty sweet. If those warehouses you rent for 5,000 coins a year came with a high-quality workroom designed to cater to the most picky of artisans, that would be awesome.
I think that is what Adhira was talking about with the (now-implemented?) GMH housing.
Isn't that new building in Allanak restricted to GMH members, though? It'd be a great resource to independent crafters, who would presumably pay a premium to get in, but I don't know if our apartment code can differentiate like that. You'd probably need a whole other building with similar amenities but higher rates, I'm guessing.
Quote from: Nyr on October 20, 2014, 04:14:55 PM
Quote from: Desertman on October 20, 2014, 03:19:22 PM
I don't really care for the concept of "businesses that rent out access to their work areas" for independent crafters. At least not if the idea is, "You pay fifty coins and get access to a backroom with tools and workbenches.". That seems like a WoW/MMO concept.
"You pay 30 gold pieces to use the crafting bench and produce some cotton pants of high quality!".
Right now the only room rentals we have in the game do not work like that. You either rent as part of the apartment system or you rent until you leave it. If implemented, it would more than likely follow one of those two models.
Quote
Now, if Nenyuk opened some apartments that were specifically geared towards housing and catering to artisans and those apartments happened to contain higher and lower quality "workrooms", that would be pretty sweet. If those warehouses you rent for 5,000 coins a year came with a high-quality workroom designed to cater to the most picky of artisans, that would be awesome.
I think that is what Adhira was talking about with the (now-implemented?) GMH housing.
Awesome. :)
This is cool. Defintily going to be playing a lot of crafters on arm!
Quote from: BadSkeelz on October 20, 2014, 04:18:17 PM
Isn't that new building in Allanak restricted to GMH members, though? It'd be a great resource to independent crafters, who would presumably pay a premium to get in, but I don't know if our apartment code can differentiate like that. You'd probably need a whole other building with similar amenities but higher rates, I'm guessing.
Currently isn't differentiated, non-GMH can't get in. I'm not sure I disagree with that though... it's in the spirit of the monopoly the GMH have. You want to be an independent? Expect to be much harder to make quality stuff, as you don't have the facilities that GMH employees have. You can build your own tools workshop of course, but that's obviously much harder than just strolling into the one the GMH members get free.
Does this mean remote locations such as Red Storm will have merchants that actually sell the tools needed? Last I was there they didn't have needle and thread and staff suggested that I just RP that I have it as it wasn't required to use.
Was it taken into consideration how this will have an effect on crafters in isolated clans like the Sun Runners and Soh Lanah Kah?
Toolmaking just turned into a useful skill!
Cool.
So, let me get this straight...there is to be recipes that require tools?
If so, with the current crafting system, how is this an improvement?
If I type craft bone right now, with say, knifemaking, it says you can make a knife, it does not tell me that I could also make several other types of knives with that bone if I had other items...so, I assume that the crafting system is unchanged, so now items that require tools will not show unless you have that tool? Oh, great....let us add yet another component to any recipe.
Currently, I would not consider this an improvement.
At least on a certain other rpi that requires tools for crafting, you can see everything you need ahead of time. And even then that system is rather annoying.
I too am confused by what the "when crafting" part means. Does it mean that you will have to have the tool for it to display the recipe, or that you will have to have the tool to create the recipe when you try to do so?
This is really cool.
Recently, I was actually thinking about the concept of further degradation of things. Things needing to be refilled. So on. I think it will help with the whole 'money isn't that valuable' thing that happens beyond a certain point.
I approve of this change.
Quote from: Armaddict on October 20, 2014, 06:40:27 PM
This is really cool.
Recently, I was actually thinking about the concept of further degradation of things. Things needing to be refilled. So on. I think it will help with the whole 'money isn't that valuable' thing that happens beyond a certain point.
I approve of this change.
I dig this change as well. Would love to see things like weapons/armor degrade as well at a much more substantial rate than they do today, especially considering the relatively soft/brittle materials used for crafting in Zalanthas.
Hm. I don't do crafters usually, and this would be another reason not to, imo. I'm all for realism but I don't enjoy tedium. I think this adds an extra layers of work that while entirely realistic doesn't really mean fun to me. I get a lot of people like this sort of thing but it reminds me a lot of seeing clans with 20 broken shields in their Yard armor rack, just because people don't enjoy spam-walking the 20 rooms to the repair shop to get them fixed.
Quote from: X-D on October 20, 2014, 05:59:39 PM
So, let me get this straight...there is to be recipes that require tools?
If so, with the current crafting system, how is this an improvement?
If I type craft bone right now, with say, knifemaking, it says you can make a knife, it does not tell me that I could also make several other types of knives with that bone if I had other items...so, I assume that the crafting system is unchanged, so now items that require tools will not show unless you have that tool? Oh, great....let us add yet another component to any recipe.
Currently, I would not consider this an improvement.
At least on a certain other rpi that requires tools for crafting, you can see everything you need ahead of time. And even then that system is rather annoying.
I agree with X-D here. I don't like this, I think it needlessly complicates an already complicated process, and gimps an already gimped class further. What happens when TOOL recipes require TOOLS. You can't make that tool, because you don't have that tool, contact Kadius. Kadius doesn't gaf about your indie ass, join a clan. This restricts character concepts and pigeonholes people into a system where they will feel bored, stifled, and irritable, and do something more fun, like, say, go play a ranger or something. Tools have never been easy to acquire, in fact, if you get one, sometimes, you have to spend months until a GMH merchant will finally make your non-tool-crafting butt one, and then, it's our little secret, no one can know. Fletchery wrenches, the new defiling.
Considering how many newbie merchants I have found wasting away, down to their last small, STILL waiting on the agent for the other GMH because the first turned them down, I don't like it. I really don't. But I've said that and should stop being redundant. These are my opinions and there's a really good chance they're wrong. Let's no complicate things needlessly. If you want immersion, throw it into your emotes, but if you're down to your last small, can't find any tools, and finally got to the point to where you can make something that will fetch you some sid, assuming the shopkeeper isn't broke (hint: he is), imagine finding out you need a TOOL, a rare artifact of power, whose rarity can be attributed to both the lack of indie merchants and the jaded apathy of bored GMH merchants hanging on the edge of storing, and the frustration will become evident.
If there's a tool shop added, with an extensive number of tools, a decent amount of coin for buying higher-quality crafted tools, then i can see this possibly working out, but I don't see how the crafting change is needed, although I'm a big fan of MORE shops. I certainly wouldn't like to see the crafting change take place before the shops are added, at least one to each city, village, what have you. Tools will be VITAL to doing ANYTHING. As it stands, some places lack some seriously vital services. While there are workarounds, they're quite hazerdous for some and require a good deal of complicated travelling and logistics, it makes no sense to me that the providers of said services would ignore the places where they could pull in coin just because, deal with it.
/rant
Ana isn't successful now on some items without the appropriate tool. I'm guessing it will be like that.
I hope you can still chip rocks just with a hammer stone. (Hidden grudge: stone chisels for stone make me uncomfortable.)
I'm also thinking of Lizzie saying somewhere that she refused to hold a tool that was ridiculous for the item she was working on. (Of course "They" who were advising her may have been wrong. Most people are.
At times, I would have given blood for 20 broken items to hang on my rack.
And, Fuji, I'm saying by my experience, you don't need a tool shop dispenser. You may need to go grebbing or shovelling or begging while you beg borrow or steal a tool, or wait for a PC to put one in the shop.
I feel a reactionary pigheadedness coming upon me. Sorry. ::)
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on October 20, 2014, 06:56:03 PM
Hm. I don't do crafters usually, and this would be another reason not to, imo. I'm all for realism but I don't enjoy tedium. I think this adds an extra layers of work that while entirely realistic doesn't really mean fun to me. I get a lot of people like this sort of thing but it reminds me a lot of seeing clans with 20 broken shields in their Yard armor rack, just because people don't enjoy spam-walking the 20 rooms to the repair shop to get them fixed.
I don't mean sparring equipment. Sparring equipment by its very nature should be incredibly durable, because it's all padded/dull.
But if you're going out into the wilds and fighting for real, with sharpened weapons/etc...there should be some serious damage to gear as a result. That creates a market for people who can do repairs, is more realistic, and prevents super long treks into the wild without the necessary skill set. I'd be cool with making armor much more protective as a trade off as well. That chitin helmet might offer some awesome damage reduction, but after taking a couple blows, it's going to crack and become far less protective...etc. A way of making combat less dangerous, but at a price beyond just resting somewhere until your health regens.
Quote from: bracken on October 20, 2014, 07:12:27 PM
Ana isn't successful now on some items without the appropriate tool. I'm guessing it will be like that.
I hope you can still chip rocks just with a hammer stone. (Hidden grudge: stone chisels for stone make me uncomfortable.)
I'm also thinking of Lizzie saying somewhere that she refused to hold a tool that was ridiculous for the item she was working on. (Of course "They" who were advising her may have been wrong. Most people are.
At times, I would have given blood for 20 broken items to hang on my rack.
And, Fuji, I'm saying by my experience, you don't need a tool shop dispenser. You may need to go grebbing or shovelling or begging while you beg borrow or steal a tool, or wait for a PC to put one in the shop.
I feel a reactionary pigheadedness coming upon me. Sorry. ::)
I'm telling you, I had a PC once who was looking for SOME way, ANY way to make some coin off of [skill], I waited an IG year and a half, communicating my desire for one of these fabled tools. Then I finally got it and realized that despite my skill level coupled with the tool, it was near useless, because I was burning far more coin than I made from the finished product on materials anyway. Other crafting skills, in my experience, are much more profitable, simply because there are more vendors willing to purchase said items, and the materials that can be used are widely variable and there are more recipes.
Look, I just prefer a sane difficulty level for newer players. The learning curve is already rather fricking steep. This just adds another complicated step on top of other complicated steps. Begging, stealing, shovelling and grebbing I'm quite familiar with, and have had to use, frequently, to varying degrees of success. I'm a very determined and stubborn person and can make some things work that others may find impossible, I think setting the bar at my level would be a serious error. I am an insatiable twink and I will find a way to deal. Others will not.
QuoteAna isn't successful now on some items without the appropriate tool. I'm guessing it will be like that.
Actually bracken, that is not correct. It just means that your skill level was not high enough. And the tool simply gave you the boost to that point.
Requiring tools for a craft is a TOTALLY different animal. IE, from the staff posting I take it as the Tool is actually getting added to the recipe as a component.
Or it might be that the skill itself is going to require tools, still it is the same as adding it to the craft IMO.
But you do not have to type it into the craft.
Now, I might be wrong on the new tool system, but I am correct on the old.
Quote from: Nathvaan on October 20, 2014, 11:20:57 AM
As part of the continued incremental changes to crafting, crafting tools have received a little love!
- Change to allow for some optional values on a recipe for a tool type required and quality required.
I hope that this becomes the new status quo for clan specific items, rather than making them clan_tag required. It's more realistic, and has the potential for far more conflict and merchant-wars than the OOC construct of requiring a clan_tag in order to make something. It's absurd to me that you could make something one day from simple materials and tools, but suddenly be unable to the next because you were kicked from the clan. Not having the rare and valuable tool to convert those materials into special goods is another matter, and is much more realistic.
For instance, if Kuraci raptor nuggets required a deep fryer tool that was typically only seen in the kitchens in House Kurac, then I'm cool with not being able to make them unless you had a deep fryer. But if I managed to get said deep fryer, I should be able to make raptor nuggets despite not being in the clan. Of course Kurac will come hunt me down and kill me for trying to butt into their raptor nugget monopoly...but that's the risk I took when stealing/mastercrafting the tool on my own.
On the other hand, I do NOT hope this becomes common place for independent craftable items, except for particularly rare or masterwork stuff. It would just overly complicate the novice-advanced portion of this classes development, having tools provide a bonus makes it worthwhile enough to pursue them at these levels.
I like things that encourage interactions, and adverse circumstances that may encourage living PC's to change what their maker intended them to be.
I like to think that we bend over backwards tp point newbies towards people that might help them survive. I'd rather our PC's , where possible (a velvet hand in a spiked gauntlet or something?) make things work for newbs, rather than provide dispensing shops.
If they are broke, I'd rather they were encouraged to throw away their skill set for a while and become a Byn barber.
But that's just my opinion, one amongst many.
Quote from: bracken on October 20, 2014, 07:57:10 PM
I like things that encourage interactions, and adverse circumstances that may encourage living PC's to change what their maker intended them to be.
I like to think that we bend over backwards tp point newbies towards people that might help them survive. I'd rather our PC's , where possible (a velvet hand in a spiked gauntlet or something?) make things work for newbs, rather than provide dispensing shops.
If they are broke, I'd rather they were encouraged to throw away their skill set for a while and become a Byn barber.
But that's just my opinion, one amongst many.
Well, it's definitely going to provide some interesting challenges for PCs that are
discouraged from interacting, but only masochists play those so thumbs up. There's a lot of counting on the goodwill of others there, which, let's face it, is the exception, not the norm, in the real world or Zalanthas. Yes, join the Byn, young merchant. Soon, they'll have a strict no-merchant policy, because it's inconvenient that they can't fight, therefor, can't be -real- mercenaries, just like elves can't ride! Oh wow! See how the logic works there? Yes, let's apply OOC powergaming logic to IC situations, along with an admonishment to those that try to flaunt the system, and see what we get.
Anyway, tl;dr I disagree with your opinion.
I just read it will be optional. This I certainly don't mind, but I'd rather -existing- crafts stay just how they are. Also, crafting without the proper tools already turns into plenty of burnt materials, even at master, enough to frustrate someone to the point of ramming their head into a brick wall to relieve it (yes, that's where that gash came from, crafter-rage, step aside, muls). If tools are changed so that they no longer give a bonus to the appropriate crafting skills, I will be one sad panda.
Quote from: X-D on October 20, 2014, 05:59:39 PM
So, let me get this straight...there is to be recipes that require tools?
Possibly. It is an optional thing. It can be added in to existing crafts or added onto new crafts. At this time there are 0 crafts that require tools using this method.
QuoteIf so, with the current crafting system, how is this an improvement?
I understand your bigger question here is more "I don't like the current crafting system, so how does this help anyone at all?" than "wow, this blows, how is this an improvement?" I'll answer the latter thing first: this something that is optional that can be added to things that it would make sense to add it to, thereby enhancing the feeling of immersion. However, it also isn't a requirement, and likely will be targeted (at first) towards things that make the most sense. How about ceramics and pottery? You want a pot thingy that has to be spun on that Ghost thingy, you need one of those Ghost things before you can make it. Well, now we have both the clayworking skill (yay) and the possibility of "tool required" to make something.
QuoteIf I type craft bone right now, with say, knifemaking, it says you can make a knife, it does not tell me that I could also make several other types of knives with that bone if I had other items...so, I assume that the crafting system is unchanged, so now items that require tools will not show unless you have that tool? Oh, great....let us add yet another component to any recipe.
You are correct, if the crafting system remains unchanged, it would not tell you if you could make other items...just like it does right now. However, that particular suggested change is something discussed here (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,47848.msg837006.html#msg837006). Just to reiterate, what you are suggesting is not possible right now, so no, this new code does not specifically address this other thing that you would like to exist in-game. No word on when that might come into play, but it is also something that has a proposal staff-side, and it has been discussed recently.
QuoteI understand your bigger question here is more "I don't like the current crafting system, so how does this help anyone at all?"
This is pretty close yes...though I do not dislike it currently so much as think it needs improvement to intuitiveness...if that is a word. And I think that with the current system adding "required" tools is going in the other direction from intuitive.
QuoteJust to reiterate, what you are suggesting is not possible right now, so no, this new code does not specifically address this other thing that you would like to exist in-game. No word on when that might come into play, but it is also something that has a proposal staff-side, and it has been discussed recently.
Well, that is cool at least.
And to reiterate myself, in my first post I did put in a nice blue "currently", But maybe this is just the beginning of a revamp to a more intuitive and robust crafting system...if so, that would be sweet.
Oh, and as to tools degrading...Not a fan, but not a big deal either...long as it does not apply to all tools. I can think of several off hand that either should not degrade or degrade at such a slow rate as to not degrade. Others...well, sandpaper should only have a finite number of uses sure.
Some crafts have always required a tool as part of the "recipe", no?
I'm pretty sure I remember some craft examples in the craft helps that use a tool as part of the recipe..
Quote from: Nyr on October 20, 2014, 08:44:08 PM
Quote from: X-D on October 20, 2014, 05:59:39 PM
So, let me get this straight...there is to be recipes that require tools?
Possibly. It is an optional thing. It can be added in to existing crafts or added onto new crafts. At this time there are 0 crafts that require tools using this method.
QuoteIf so, with the current crafting system, how is this an improvement?
I understand your bigger question here is more "I don't like the current crafting system, so how does this help anyone at all?" than "wow, this blows, how is this an improvement?" I'll answer the latter thing first: this something that is optional that can be added to things that it would make sense to add it to, thereby enhancing the feeling of immersion. However, it also isn't a requirement, and likely will be targeted (at first) towards things that make the most sense. How about ceramics and pottery? You want a pot thingy that has to be spun on that Ghost thingy, you need one of those Ghost things before you can make it. Well, now we have both the clayworking skill (yay) and the possibility of "tool required" to make something.
QuoteIf I type craft bone right now, with say, knifemaking, it says you can make a knife, it does not tell me that I could also make several other types of knives with that bone if I had other items...so, I assume that the crafting system is unchanged, so now items that require tools will not show unless you have that tool? Oh, great....let us add yet another component to any recipe.
You are correct, if the crafting system remains unchanged, it would not tell you if you could make other items...just like it does right now. However, that particular suggested change is something discussed here (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,47848.msg837006.html#msg837006). Just to reiterate, what you are suggesting is not possible right now, so no, this new code does not specifically address this other thing that you would like to exist in-game. No word on when that might come into play, but it is also something that has a proposal staff-side, and it has been discussed recently.
Nyr,
Based on what you are saying and my mis-reading of the topic in the beginning I think this is a good change. If I'm correct in what I'm thinking. Please correct me if I'm wrong here. Basically my understanding now after reading your post is that this in no way changes crafting, just how tools work. This doesn't make it a requirement to use tools as I previously thought.
Thank You
Yeah, what Slvr said. Fuck, I was quite worried there for a moment. Apologies for misreading.
I don't know how sly got that out of it.
Quote It can be added in to existing crafts or added onto new crafts. At this time there are 0 crafts that require tools using this method.
Bolded is the important part, it does indeed change crafts...IF it is added to them.
But, they can pick and choose and currently no crafts have it.
Hhhhmmm...So no, no current crafts are changed, all works as normal...but in the future.....
Quote from: X-D on October 20, 2014, 11:02:22 PM
I don't know how sly got that out of it.
Quote It can be added in to existing crafts or added onto new crafts. At this time there are 0 crafts that require tools using this method.
Bolded is the important part, it does indeed change crafts...IF it is added to them.
But, they can pick and choose and currently no crafts have it.
Hhhhmmm...So no, no current crafts are changed, all works as normal...but in the future.....
This is correct, so that is the time to complain, or not. For now the changes seem like good realism.
It's always time to complain about a change that adds realism but makes it harder on crafters.
Except I like this change.
Quote from: Saellyn on October 20, 2014, 11:28:15 PM
It's always time to complain about a change that adds realism but makes it harder on crafters.
Except I like this change.
You only like things that make things harder. If it had made something easier, or encouraged some kind of interaction in an isolated area of the game, a blood vessel would have burst in your head.
I think tools should degrade with time (considering we actually have a time measurment system), based on how much time they realistically persist before turning useless or turn into a state where, if used, the tool breaks (antique objects). I'm not sure if there is, but time should really be appreciated IG (object-wise, construction-wise, etc). I think we could apply the time decayment or effects to almost everything (clothes shouldn't last a lifetime - I don't know if they do - and having some pair of shirts should be encouraged, maybe otherwise smelling). Once again, I believe that we should make time a realistic factor in the game, for certain items (without making it unpractical or a totally game-changing feature).
I think many of the listed concerns are valid. Expanding the tool stock of both shops in the cities is going to be important.
Bracken - my concern with regards to tools was that using tool A didn't make sense to be effective when trying to make item B, but it was effective and in fact superior to using item C, which seemed a lot more appropriate.
For example
I'm whittling a small block of wood into a little carved-out erdlu.
I don't have a woodworking knife and can't find one anywhere in any shop, and the clanned crafter in the crafting house was using the only one left in the workshop and logged out still wielding it.
Our crafter hall does, however, have a saw - which works on woodworking.
It makes ZERO sense to use a saw on such delicate, intricate work. This isn't chainsaws carving out statues from tree stumps like in real life afterall, it's desktop carving of wood that's not much bigger than a textbook.
I DO, however, have a leatherworking knife and a hidescraper. Both are knives. Both have sharp edges. Both have handles. Both should be able to cut wood just fine, and make intricate etchings. But neither are "coded" to work on wood. Codedly, you get no bonus using them on wood.
So I'm stuck using a saw to carve a tiny hollowed statue, just because codedly, I can. Logically, this shouldn't be possible. Other players knew that saws were superior to woodworking knives and tried to insist to my character ICLy that I was supposed to use a saw. ICly - I knew I shouldn't be able to. ICly, my character would think those characters were off their rockers for even suggesting such a thing. Even OOCly I knew they were absolutely correct.
That is a very small nitpicky powergaming move, but it was an example of a whole bunch of very small nitpicky powergaming moves that were adding up and making me very frustrated at the time (like crafting a silk gown while standing in the latrines, not using any tools at all, just because you know that failure will make you improve).
That was my concern, and still is. With this new change, I'll be watching to see if this helps the situation, or makes it worse.
Quote from: wizturbo on October 20, 2014, 07:48:00 PM
Quote from: Nathvaan on October 20, 2014, 11:20:57 AM
As part of the continued incremental changes to crafting, crafting tools have received a little love!
- Change to allow for some optional values on a recipe for a tool type required and quality required.
I hope that this becomes the new status quo for clan specific items, rather than making them clan_tag required. It's more realistic, and has the potential for far more conflict and merchant-wars than the OOC construct of requiring a clan_tag in order to make something. It's absurd to me that you could make something one day from simple materials and tools, but suddenly be unable to the next because you were kicked from the clan. Not having the rare and valuable tool to convert those materials into special goods is another matter, and is much more realistic.
For instance, if Kuraci raptor nuggets required a deep fryer tool that was typically only seen in the kitchens in House Kurac, then I'm cool with not being able to make them unless you had a deep fryer. But if I managed to get said deep fryer, I should be able to make raptor nuggets despite not being in the clan. Of course Kurac will come hunt me down and kill me for trying to butt into their raptor nugget monopoly...but that's the risk I took when stealing/mastercrafting the tool on my own.
On the other hand, I do NOT hope this becomes common place for independent craftable items, except for particularly rare or masterwork stuff. It would just overly complicate the novice-advanced portion of this classes development, having tools provide a bonus makes it worthwhile enough to pursue them at these levels.
I like this idea a lot - instead of you having to be in the clan, you need the tool the clan uses, which has been engineered to the purpose. I like that an awful lot. However, I think all recipes above a novice level of craftsmanship should require a tool to create them. One way to make this easier for newbies and new merchants could be giving them a set of tools at chargen.
Quote from: Fujikoma on October 21, 2014, 12:04:25 AM
Quote from: Saellyn on October 20, 2014, 11:28:15 PM
It's always time to complain about a change that adds realism but makes it harder on crafters.
Except I like this change.
You only like things that make things harder. If it had made something easier, or encouraged some kind of interaction in an isolated area of the game, a blood vessel would have burst in your head.
... You need to take a look at my posting history before you start making useless blanket statements about me based on my liking a singular change. Maybe you should go look in the banking thread.
I just hope that we're going to see a lot more player craftable, sensible, low-quality tools. It doesn't take a genius in tool making to chip rock into something that scrapes or cuts, or to pick up a rock and use it to smash another rock into smaller pieces. I used to do it for fun as a kid.
What I would really like out of this change would be the ability to try to craft something intricate with low quality tools and have a lot higher chance of failing and the tool breaking, rather than the inability to make something entirely, in the vast majority of situations.
I don't mind this at all. Basically the same as the cooking fire system. Although I remember that being finnicky from what counted as a fire.
Personally I think stone crafting, wood crafting, clothworking, etc should be separate from armor crafting tool making sword ceafting.
The material skills should be always there but go up with use. You work with wood weapons doesn't mean you've mastered bone swords.
It would be sweet also if recipes could use multiple crafting skills. Leatherworking and cloth working for sandcloth and leather armor.
This change does not bother me, and could be really fun . I think it makes sense to need tools to craft, and some items should require a specific tool, and not just any tool that gives a bump to the crafting skill being used. I also agree that tools can be very hard to get. Requiring tools does not make crafting harder, but not being able to get the tools you need does make it harder and that is a problem that has existed since I have been playing.
So, if tools become more of a requirement, and tools are hard to find (sometimes), then this change could make crafting harder and less appealing. It does seem silly that in towns with multiple shops dedicated to selling weapons of every type that a simple leatherworking knife should be hard to find.
Fortunately there are plenty of easy fixes for this. The first would be to make basic tools available for purchase in the startup area, in the same way that new PCs can now buy other clothes or materials.
Another would be to change the way the toolmaking skill works. This is more complicated. What I suggest would be allowing any PC with a particular crafting skill, to also be able to craft the tools needed for that skill. The quality and type of tool available to be crafted would increase with the skill.
Another way would be for toolmaking to be one of the initial skills any merchant would get out of the box, instead of having to branch it.
I also think that tools with edges, should certainly degrade. However they should be able to be repaired (sharpened). A tool repair skill could be added, that one would get along with tool making.
Anyway, I think it will be a good change if applied in the right way.
As someone that often plays crafters in some capacity or other, I'm definitely excited about this change.
While it might not address other problems the crafting system might or might not have, it's not meant to. It's meant to add a level of realism to certain crafts, and since these will be selectively implemented, I think it's going to do a great job of it. If this change was being introduced across the board on every recipe I'd probably feel differently, but it's good to know it's only going to be added where it's truly appropriate and not just to add a level of needless complexity or difficulty to the system as a whole.
Tool degradation for recipes that require them is also a nice touch, and I assume will be applied in an equally realistic fashion. Some tools wear out easier than others, by nature not just quality. And others last a lifetime, passing down through generations of use.
I have two questions thus far on the change, that perhaps a staff member can answer...
1) Past any tool requirements, will the inherent bonuses of tools remain in place as currently implemented?
2) Will tools degrade only when used by a recipe that requires them, or every time you craft with their bonus active?
Both questions assume that tools, at least those that aren't required by a given recipe, will continue to function as they have before. Meaning they'll have a passive bonus on them, and even if a quality/degradation counter is added to them, it will only be used when a recipe actively taps into that part of their code. If this is going to be implemented differently, perhaps that can be clarified?
Looking forward to answers, as well as testing this in-game!
Quote from: Ouroboros on October 21, 2014, 05:51:49 PM
1) Past any tool requirements, will the inherent bonuses of tools remain in place as currently implemented?
Unless otherwise altered, yes.
Quote2) Will tools degrade only when used by a recipe that requires them, or every time you craft with their bonus active?
At present, the former appears to be the case; tools will only have a chance of degrading when being used on recipes that require them. Implementing on a wider scale is likely not intended for this release.
I love this change.
BUT
A newly crafted tool
The tool shows signs of very heavy damage and hard use, and its functionality appears limited.
:-[
Quote from: solera on November 07, 2014, 12:51:07 PM
I love this change.
BUT
A newly crafted tool
The tool shows signs of very heavy damage and hard use, and its functionality appears limited.
:-[
All this means is that we haven't set a tool quality number for the tool yet. The issue about the ambiguous messages is something that's being looked at. For the most part, there are very few recipes yet that require any tool, so you should be able to go on crafting as you have been.
Actually, there is a quality level set for that tool, and while newly crafted tools can be considered to be of low quality (made with substandard materials, a cheap design, etc), the quality messages you're getting now are, I admit, a little too specific. I'll see what I can do about that, but regardless, it's safe to assume that any newly crafted tool that has a message that makes it seem like it's a piece of shit actually is a piece of shit.
Maybe the toolmaking skill should be removed, and individual crafting skills should include being able to make the tools of their trade.
The separation of toolmaking from the trade is a modern invention, where high precision and even power tools are mass produced. You can bet the original makers of things knew their own tools.
That's a great idea.
Quote from: Eyeball on November 09, 2014, 02:24:50 PM
Maybe the toolmaking skill should be removed, and individual crafting skills should include being able to make the tools of their trade.
The separation of toolmaking from the trade is a modern invention, where high precision and even power tools are mass produced. You can bet the original makers of things knew their own tools.
Hell yes. I would love this!
However, to play DA on this:-
There are, to my knowledge, excluding tool making, around 20-25 crafting skills, across various categories, each one with a specific tool, sometimes multiple, lets say two each (this will balance out those skills that have three or four items for the job) That's roughly about 50 items in the codebase.
These would have to be sorted through, then added to each of the separate sub-guilds and guilds that would use such tools. Often, some tools overlap, that would mean duplicating he code.
I'm not a coder, and I assume such would have to be handled by a coder, but lets say just to cut and paste those bits of code would take roughly...three to five hours after you've located the files they need to go into, and transferred all the data. hen another three to five hours testing the code to make sure it won't crash or corrupt the game files.
That's ten hours tops a coder could have spent improving other much needed areas of the game, and that's just on moving and testing the code, let alone all the work that would need to be done to the documentation and helpfiles, as well as hashing it out on the IDB, getting it to and past approval, and having it signed of by Nyr or Adhira.
Total estimated time:- 15-20 hours.
On the other hand, there's a entire subguild dedicated to supplying these tools to craftsmen that is already implemented in game, and has just been given a much needed boost to it's utilization, as I can only recall ever seeing one PC use the subguild.
I'd like to see a few more people play the sub itself, and bring an extra aspect to the game, rather than remove it and spread it out amongst other subs, and let the coders work on coding more beasts, more weather echoes, updating old code, and moving the code to a much easier form to handle where improvements can be implemented a little easier and quicker than they currently are.
However, as I first stated, I love it!
I've just logged into the game after a brief hiatus, and noticed that my various tools have different quality levels, ranging from:
Excellent
Decent
Average
Below Average
Terrible
Completely non-functional
Got me thinking, here are a few questions:
Question 1: Does the quality of a tool depend solely on the number of uses it has had? Or does it depend on the number of failed crafting attempts?
Question 2: Does the quality of a tool dictate how much of a crafting bonus you will get? Or does it simply dictate how many further uses you will get from that tool, at a constant "bonus to skill" level?
Question 3: Do tools used for different crafting trades deteriorate at the same rate?
Question 4: Do different tools used for the same crafting trade deteriorate at the same rate? (example: fletchery pick and straightening wrench, being used simultaneously, or individually)
Question 5: If a particular item mandatorily requires a certain tool to be used, to create it, will it require a minimum tool quality to show up as a possibly available crafting recipe?
Question 6: Would it be preferable for tools, to exhibit their quality (like lets say torches), instead of having to use the assess command to check the tool quality before/after each use:
an excellent quality hide scraper
a decent quality hide scraper
an average quality hide scraper
a below-average quality hide scraper
a terrible quality hide scraper
a completely non-functional quality hide scraper
Question 7: Does the quality of a tool dictate whether your crafting attempt will be successful or not? If so how?
1. Neither, at least as far as I recall. See above from Talia.
2. See Talia's post.
3. The mechanics of that have not been revealed. If relevant, find out in game.
4. See 3.
5. Both flags are optional so it depends on specific implementation.
6. Neat idea.
7. Nope.