Where Players Found Us: September 2014

[Barzalene]

Maybe when a staff member finds them self angry or at an impasse with a player, hand them off to someone who comes in fresher or calmer?

Edited to add, no rancor or sarcasm is intended. (Text can be a rough medium.) I think often for me, my biggest blow ups have happened when I had managed to truly irritate the staff member I was dealing with. In response they were likely a bit short with me and nothing good resulted. (At least not good for me, whoever I was dealing with may have felt my resulting Arm vacations were a win. )

[wizturbo]

What would you suggest to do here to care for them?

The main thing to consider on this front is change management.  Every time the status quo is challenged, someone's attitude about the game is going to change.  Some of these moments are generally outside the staff's hands, such as the death or retirement of a character.  But some of these moments are staff-driven.  Changes to the code, changes to the game world, etc.

For the staff-driven moments, its easy for players to feel victimized in some way, or that these changes damage the player's sense of nostalgia about something they're emotionally invested in.  In my opinion, the best way to manage that kind of change is through stronger communication and making a concerted effort to make players feel valued.

I think the key for Arm is to give players the sense that their voice is heard, and sincerely appreciated, even if they're not in favor of the changes.  Here are some suggestions on how this can be achieved:

• Seek player feedback before changes are completely decided or announced.  Players feel they have no voice when a decision is made before they're consulted
• Take extra care about how things are phrased in communications.  The difference between someone feeling valued and having a sense of dignity is often decided by just a few words.
• Explain decisions that are controversial.  The sorcerer changes were a great example of how this was well done, albeit later in the thread instead of upfront.

[RogueGunslinger]

I think the swell of players we got around the HRPT is a great indicator of what brings people in, new and old. Seeing players who are already playing get excited about something. And I don't think it has to be an HRPT every time.  For instance, around that time we also introduced the new extended sub_guilds, and got an awesome website up and running.

We need to get the current player-base more excited, not try to focus on the people who aren't playing. Those will come when they see how much fun we're having.

Edit: Also everything Wizturbo just said, he's spot on.

[Reiloth]

Players voices have definitely seemed more taken into account even in the last couple of years than in the whole timespan of the game. The rape ban amongst other discussions seemed to change policy somewhat based on player input. Not to mention the vast amount of code changes based on our input too. Pretty cool.

[wizturbo]

I think the swell of players we got around the HRPT is a great indicator of what brings people in, new and old. Seeing players who are already playing get excited about something. And I don't think it has to be an HRPT every time.  For instance, around that time we also introduced the new extended sub_guilds, and got an awesome website up and running.

We need to get the current player-base more excited, not try to focus on the people who aren't playing. Those will come when they see how much fun we're having.

I agree completely.  To get people to return is all about generating fun content.  Keeping people from being burnt out or rage-quitting is what my previous post was about.

[Gimfalisette]

From a data standpoint, I think we actually don't know why veteran players leave the game or take hiatuses. We each have an opinion based on our own experience, or what we've heard; so we have anecdata.

E.g., I could tell you that I left the game in 2012 because I was burnt out, and I could tell you that I came back in August because I needed the immersion / stress relief that only comes from Armageddon, but that doesn't tell you anything about another player's reasons. I haven't ever left because of interactions with staff, or because I got PKed and rage-quit, but that doesn't mean another player hasn't.

So it's nearly impossible to make recommendations about retaining or re-attracting veteran players, IMO, because we simply don't know why they may have left or may be at risk of leaving.

[Reiloth]

Maybe we should have an "exit interview" multiple choice form on the website? For the motivated butt hurt amongst them.

[RogueGunslinger]

Maybe we should have an "exit interview" multiple choice form on the website? For the motivated butt hurt amongst them.

This isn't a bad idea. How would it work though? Maybe after a month of inactivity it sends you an email asking why you left the game?

[Reiloth]

That could work. I don't know if everyone would respond but it would at least provide some data.

[BadSkeelz]

From a data standpoint, I think we actually don't know why veteran players leave the game or take hiatuses. We each have an opinion based on our own experience, or what we've heard; so we have anecdata.

E.g., I could tell you that I left the game in 2012 because I was burnt out, and I could tell you that I came back in August because I needed the immersion / stress relief that only comes from Armageddon, but that doesn't tell you anything about another player's reasons. I haven't ever left because of interactions with staff, or because I got PKed and rage-quit, but that doesn't mean another player hasn't.

So it's nearly impossible to make recommendations about retaining or re-attracting veteran players, IMO, because we simply don't know why they may have left or may be at risk of leaving.

Well said.

Maybe we should have an "exit interview" multiple choice form on the website? For the motivated butt hurt amongst them.

The basic problem with this is that you wind up getting a skewed result, because only those really "motivated [by] butt hurt" are going to bother putting in a review. Same reason you see restaurant reviews on Yelp swing between extreme "best eatery ever!" and "I got dysentery and died from their sun tea."

[Barzalene]

Said email should not include the term "butt hurt." Maybe.

[Gimfalisette]

Maybe we should have an "exit interview" multiple choice form on the website? For the motivated butt hurt amongst them.

That's a good idea. Another possibility: We put up a poll (or polls) here on the GDB for those of us who have left the game and come back, and try to ascertain two things: 1. Why did the player leave? 2. Why did the player come back? It should be reasonably well-designed, however. (Not to be a jerk or anything, but often the polls we do here have flaws!) Maybe could ask how long the player stayed gone, too. Not sure how many responses we would need to have a true sample; 20 to 30?

Players who came back are probably a better model, data-wise, than those who never come back. There are going to be some players we have no hope of re-attracting, but we can't worry about them. We should focus on players who are likely to come back.

[Nyr]

Maybe when a staff member finds them self angry or at an impasse with a player, hand them off to someone who comes in fresher or calmer?

This is actually already part of staff involvement with players in documentation for staff.  Storytellers are not actually intended to be involved in dealing with administrative or disciplinary stuff--that is actually the administrator's role.  This leaves the storyteller fresh and ready for working with the clan and NOT getting agitated or angry directly with a player, leaving the role of 'bad guy/bad gal' (if needed) to be played by the administrator.  The buck tends to stop there as they are the ones that will have to deal with all future administrative/disciplinary-related stuff in the clan group.  It is also possible for another administrator+ to handle dealing with a specific player's issue.  This is rare, but it does happen.

I think the key for Arm is to give players the sense that their voice is heard, and sincerely appreciated, even if they're not in favor of the changes.  Here are some suggestions on how this can be achieved:

• Seek player feedback before changes are completely decided or announced.  Players feel they have no voice when a decision is made before they're consulted
• Take extra care about how things are phrased in communications.  The difference between someone feeling valued and having a sense of dignity is often decided by just a few words.
• Explain decisions that are controversial.  The sorcerer changes were a great example of how this was well done, albeit later in the thread instead of upfront.

The latter two, we can definitely do better on.

The former is more complicated.  There are times when we can do this and there are times that we do not feel that we can do this.

[Nyr]

Maybe we should have an "exit interview" multiple choice form on the website? For the motivated butt hurt amongst them.

This isn't a bad idea. How would it work though? Maybe after a month of inactivity it sends you an email asking why you left the game?

It might need to be longer than that.

We've utilized some external/free tools for surveys for these new players and we will (maybe) get that started back up again.  We can expand that to set up a survey for players that were here for a while/left by sending that out manually, provided we have a good standard/metric for identifying what a "veteran player" is, and how long they should be not playing before they are in this category.  I'm not sure that it should be entirely automated either.

[Malken]

As the official ambassador of the jaded Arm players fanclub, I can tell you that the majority of us will only return when we feel like we're missing on exciting stuff. Just the feeling of missing on exciting stuff will get us back. From reading the GDB, I know that I'm not missing on anything by not playing and just reading the GDB.

The problem is that many will answer that I should make my own fun and get something exciting going, but that's not going to get us back. We want some exciting events that we can be part of, not spend the next six months or so to get started, maybe.

Also, a lot of other jaded players' demands are so over the top that it'll never happen, so you can count them out permanently.

[Marauder Moe]

So what would make you feel like you're missing exciting stuff?  We can't exactly advertise every plot on the GDB.  In fact, generally we can't advertise any plots on the GDB.

[Malken]

So what would make you feel like you're missing exciting stuff?  We can't exactly advertise every plot on the GDB.  In fact, generally we can't advertise any plots on the GDB.

Oh, I know that, but I've been around the block for so long that I know just by reading posts when some exciting thing is happening or when the game's story has just stalled forever (which I'm thinking is the case at the moment and has been for a long time).

When a lot of people posts stuff like, "Holy shit, I can't believe this happened!" and others follow and this goes on for a few days and often, I know exciting stuff is happening.

If most people post how boring Tuluk is (like Barsook has been doing for a while), I know that Tuluk is just as dead as when I left it.

I also talk to plenty of ex and current Arm players as well.

[MeTekillot]

I'll try to make the game more exciting.

[Nyr]

When a lot of people posts stuff like, "Holy shit, I can't believe this happened!" and others follow and this goes on for a few days and often, I know exciting stuff is happening.

brb, making alt accounts

[Nyr]

In seriousness, what is the extent to which you'd want to be notified about things happening?  How "exciting" does something have to be to get you back?  What is it that you feel you want to be missing?

[Gimfalisette]

As the official ambassador of the jaded Arm players fanclub, I can tell you that the majority of us will only return when we feel like we're missing on exciting stuff.

OK, but I'm going to point out here that not all veteran players who are not playing currently are necessarily members of the "jaded Arm players fanclub." I certainly wasn't.

And as to exciting stuff happening...I think that may help sometimes, or may not. I was around for the HRPT last year and then just quit again because I wasn't feeling it.

Not that I think that telling people about exciting stuff happening is a bad idea, because I don't; I think it's a very good idea, if it can be done without revealing too much.

[manonfire]

What is it that you feel you want to be missing?

Ultraviolence.

Check it - most of the old jaded vets that don't play anymore started their Arm career back in the Halaster/Tlaloc/Bhagarva (lol) days. The modus operandi for storytellers back in those days felt very different than it does today. To wit, STs back in the late 90s and early 00s were actual storytellers, and not this weird amalgam of item-loaders and request-responders. I used to get legit excited when my Bynner went out on what we all knew was a Halaster RPT, because we had no idea what was going to happen. It didn't matter if every single one of us died, we'd go out witnessing some memorable shit.

The social climate in both cities is another reason I don't really play much anymore. Tuluk is basically an empty cuddle puddle, Allanak is a bustling cuddle puddle that tries to pretend it isn't one. Nobles are mudsexxing for hours at a time and not wandering the streets, finding some shitheel to fuck with. I haven't seen anyone thrown in the pit in forever. I haven't seen a cruel, despotic templar that gave me the OOC shakes in forever. I haven't seen an attempted mugging in the city proper for years.. The status quo isn't murder, corruption, and betrayal anymore. It's more like tea, hat-tipping, and soft smiles.

Give me blood. Give me public torture. Give me frightening, unpredictable magick. Give me that sense that anything could happen, anywhere, at anytime.

To answer your question, Nyr - eat my brains!

[Malken]

In seriousness, what is the extent to which you'd want to be notified about things happening?  How "exciting" does something have to be to get you back?  What is it that you feel you want to be missing?

Well, that's a legit question and I think it deserves to be answered without my usual cynicism, so give me time to think it through and I'll give you a serious answer.

And Gimfy, I don't think you've ever been jaded but it's RL that pulled you away from the game, no? So I think you would be part of those I mentioned that no matter what, they won't be coming back, so there's no point in focusing on them (By that, I mean that if it's RL related, no matter what you do in game will make these players come back - at least for now).

[Gimfalisette]

And Gimfy, I don't think you've ever been jaded but it's RL that pulled you away from the game, no? So I think you would be part of those I mentioned that no matter what, they won't be coming back, so there's no point in focusing on them (By that, I mean that if it's RL related, no matter what you do in game will make these players come back - at least for now).

I think the pull of RL has been part of it, but more so I just got burnt out on the game and it stopped being fun for me for a while. I tend to really pour myself into the game when I'm actively playing, and then if I don't feel the reward coming back from doing that, it stops being fun. That probably makes no sense to anyone but me. I think it's helpful if I can take myself less seriously as a player and just enjoy stuff for what it is, although that's difficult for me to do, honestly.

And I came back because I missed the players. And needed some immersion, like I said.

[wizturbo]

Check it - most of the old jaded vets that don't play anymore started their Arm career back in the Halaster/Tlaloc/Bhagarva (lol) days. The modus operandi for storytellers back in those days felt very different than it does today. To wit, STs back in the late 90s and early 00s were actual storytellers, and not this weird amalgam of item-loaders and request-responders. I used to get legit excited when my Bynner went out on what we all knew was a Halaster RPT, because we had no idea what was going to happen. It didn't matter if every single one of us died, we'd go out witnessing some memorable shit.

Give me frightening, unpredictable magick. Give me that sense that anything could happen, anywhere, at anytime.

To answer your question, Nyr - eat my brains!

THIS.  I recall a long time ago when I played my Templar Sarador he went into the sewers to investigate some disturbances and got attacked by some horrible, horrible things and/or NPC cultists of some kind.  I wouldn't call it an HRPT, there were maybe...10 PCs there? But it was a memorable wild event that made the world seem alive and dangerous again, even for a Templar that was codedly very powerful.  

I also remember a certain character of mine getting killed by PC of a race or mutation I didn't even know existed.  So while I watched my character be murdered horribly, feeling the pain that comes with that loss, I couldn't help but go OMG THAT WAS SO COOL!

Those are the feelings I miss.  And you know, maybe that stuff still happens in Arm and I just don't see it because my PCs aren't at the right place.  I'll admit, stuff I read on these boards about the HRPT made me think that maybe this kind of thing is starting to happen again in the game...so I came back to take a peek.