Change implemented for sorcerers

[Reiloth]

Lol...A max'd warrior (even one that gets pole arms, watch out!) is not even in the same league as a max'd elementalist, and not even playing the same game as a max'd sorcerer. That imbalance is part of what makes the game great, but these are incongruous things to compare.

[RogueGunslinger]

Wonder Woman/Supergirl?

YES. Totally. Except, since we can't collude OOCly, just *shhhhhh*. OK? Good.

The rest of you, if you see a blingy, buff brunette-blonde pair hanging out together pretty soon at your local bar, just...it's nothing. Move along. (Do not hit on them.)

I had this idea recently too!

When the sorcerer subguilds go in my first PC will be female:

Warrior/enchantment magick. Tribal origin. The only armor she wears will be bracers, and she'll carry a whip.

If you steal this idea I won't even be mad.

Maybe now I'll just have to go with a green skinned female half-giant/protection magick.

[Gimfalisette]

It would be fun if Sorcerers got their own spells (Which I think they do) but in more quantity. Things that you don't see other Elementalists doing, like mirror image, or create sandstorm, things that you mention and more. Voldemort Death Skull is a great idea.

I agree. I'd probably be a lot more interested in magick if it wasn't so heavily combat-focused.

As is any character that's progressed to the end-game stage of development. Take a maxed-out warrior played for 100+ days, who solo's mekillots when they get bored, and then tell me if we should remove that class as well.

Uh...what? Not even close to the same thing, man.

Oh man, I totally want in on this. Can I be a bumbling sidekick?

Comic relief? Yes!

[Wish]

Comic relief? Yes!

He can be Booster Gold (after working in Salarr for 2rl years to accumulate the appropriate armor.)

[Ouroboros]

Lol...A max'd warrior (even one that gets pole arms, watch out!) is not even in the same league as a max'd elementalist, and not even playing the same game as a max'd sorcerer. That imbalance is part of what makes the game great, but these are incongruous things to compare.

It really, really matters who's at the keys, Reiloth. Which is what players who often gripe about over-powered builds often don't want to admit.

[Nyr]

We are not really fans of animating JUST because there is no alternative to be found within existing code or the playerbase.

No disrespect, but... tough titty?

I'll limit my replies to one sentence at a time as thus far--you have only focused on one at a time, and I do not see a point in expending more effort than that if this is your attitude. 

If alternatives existed in code or the player base, storytellers would rarely be needed to animate anything other then Vennant when they were feeling bored.

In context, I did provide more detail, but I'm not sure how else I can explain it in one sentence without making it a run-on sentence and therefore violate my self-imposed rule here.

The vast majority of the game is represented virtually though, and there will always be situations where staff has to bridge that gap. If that wasn't the case we could simply re-label staff into two camps of builders and enforcers, and eliminate storytellers entirely. Until the virtual becomes coded though, bridging the gap is one of the main things players need staff for.

You are taking "we do not prefer to be forced to animate in these specific cases" and running a pretty long way with it; please come back. 

Further, you don't think being forced into these situations is possibly a result of gimping the player-base in the first place?

Seeing as how this is an opinion and not fact, I don't think that you are looking for commentary here, so "no?"   

You said it yourself, you're forced into such situations because alternatives don't exist in code or the playerbase.

I imagine we did consider briefly the prospect of evening the playing field by giving everyone else(or anyone else) the same teeth that an 8 karma overpowered guild did...but then we didn't do that because we think that's silly.   

If the goal was to have a level playing field that required little to no staff intervention, half the guilds and races of Arm should be removed due to their potential power in the right hands, even if such happens once in a blue moon.

That is not the goal. 

Should mul be removed next, just because on occasion one lives long enough to become a menace?

I believe you're comparing apples to atomic bombs here, seeing as how one is a race and the other is a guild. 

What about the higher-karma elementalists, those can be pretty scary too sometimes. Are those next on the chopping block, just to be on the safe side?

Pretty sure we haven't brought that up, but you have here, in your latest rendition of how the game is going to Hell in a handbasket.

Where does it end exactly?

With us changing the game here and there, even though you have raised all hell when we do something with which you disagree.

And who is your power-level indicator by which you measure what's overpowered and what isn't?   Is it the average player or veterans like X-D and others?

There's no "who", but there is a "what", and that was written about above in paragraph form where I pointed out some areas in which it was overpowered and problematic.

Because if it's the later, you'd have to scrape the game as a whole before you could confidently say no circumstance will surface where a character is too powerful for the code or playerbase to deal with.

Those things earlier about what exactly was overpowered...I'd recommend reading those.   

I doubt you have such plans, or at least I pray you don't, but I'm honestly curious as to how you see this working out. Is the solution from here on to just keep coming up with more and more automated code  or policy barriers between players and staff's time? It's starting to look like the current administration's motto is, "We don't trust you to handle this, but we don't want to be forced to handle it either, so we'll just make sure it never happens."

I doubt you've forgotten, or at least I pray that you haven't, but I'm honestly curious as to whether you remember the last time you brought up how everything sucks...I'll quote several things from that post so that I don't go past my one sentence of original posting requirement for this thread, and the ellipsis in this sentence is totally not cheating.   

Staff never implement something forever.  Some things last a long time because they work, and they get changed very little.  Some things last a long time because they get overlooked.  Some things last a long time because changing it is more trouble as leaving it the way it is.

No, nothing is permanent or sacred.  We've made that quite clear, I hope.

Tone down the rhetoric, and lighten up about getting disagreed with...it's going to happen.

[BadSkeelz]

I'll happily admit that most sorcerers are played in ways that really call in to question their players' qualifications. It's just kind of poor form. It's just like how most whirans were played by people who really shouldn't have been playing them, which is why they're now six karma instead of four.

It's not even really a question of whether the player is a good roleplayer or not. The roles were so powerful that they inevitably became destructive and counter-productive to a fun game.

Lol...A max'd warrior (even one that gets pole arms, watch out!) is not even in the same league as a max'd elementalist, and not even playing the same game as a max'd sorcerer. That imbalance is part of what makes the game great, but these are incongruous things to compare.

It really, really matters who's at the keys, Reiloth. Which is what players who often gripe about over-powered builds often don't want to admit.

[Reiloth]

Show me the overpowered warrior who is max'd and can kill any NPC in the game, and I will show you the Sorcerer that <did something>.

edited by Delirium; as per the rules, don't reference specific spells or abilities not referenced in the helpfiles.

[Harmless]

I still want there to be ridiciulously powerful players in game but they should have to use much more interaction with other players to get there. no disagreement whatsoever that endless solo grinding is a shitty way to use an 8K player. I hope other magickers or rare items could teach sorcs more than their quarter of the whole list of spells. As very few players would ever want to give a sorceror more power there will be an even greater need for coercion plots. it will be a lot harder to reach true sorceror endgame without being noticed this way. I know staff aren't commenting on future changes but the merits of the ideas suggested by players in this thread are unquestionable and I am optimistic that they will receive full consideration. 

[Delirium]

Reiloth, I had to edit you, nothing personal.

I do want to say that personally, I would prefer that overpowered spells and abilities be looked at and adjusted rather than entire classes be removed wholesale. Sorcerers were certainly not the only ones who could death-trap people; and honestly, I'm far more afraid of a ranger with rare poison and master archery.

[Reiloth]

Even if a Sorcerer could only attain power by finding MacGuffin objects that taught them magick...Well...That would sure provide more of a plot than what they do now.

[Cale_Knight]

Comic relief? Yes!

He can be Booster Gold (after working in Salarr for 2rl years to accumulate the appropriate armor.)

This is the greatest possible result of the sorc change.

I'm glad this thread happened. PM me for OOC collusion.

[Reiloth]

Really delirium?

Okay -- Show me a Max'd Warrior that can kill any NPC in the game, and I will show you a Sorcerer who can easily kill the Warrior, and the Warrior has absolutely no defense against said Sorcerer.

Is that better, mom?

[Delirium]

Yep. Except it's hyperbole; there were defenses, nor was the sorcerer the only one who could perform such feats.

[Reiloth]

I'm not even talking about a specific instance -- Though that does seem to color your moderation of my post.

[Delirium]

Chill. I do agree with you that death traps are bad and should be looked at; this isn't personal. You strayed into spell mechanics, I fixed it, let's move on.

[Beethoven]

I'm just not a fan of the idea that sorcerers are now scary because they are versatile battlemages or spellswords rather than because they are practically otherworldly masters of the arcane.

[manonfire]

Code Select Expand

You must have two hands free to cast that spell.

[Reiloth]

I didn't stray into spell mechanics -- I illustrated by mentioning a spell that Sorcerers get (and we've mentioned many times in this thread they get practically every spell), and that just one of those spells can be used to thwart even the hardiest of mundane guilds. There is no defense against it beyond staying in certain places indefinitely.

Saying that it depends who's behind the keyboard is a straw man -- If I can't mention why that's an illogical argument, then I suppose it's a moot point.

[Reiloth]

Code Select Expand

You must have two hands free to cast that spell.

Really? We both know that's also not true given X Y Z spells cast at X Y Z powers.

[Marauder Moe]

Dude... really... yes you did stray into mechanics, and you keep doing so.  You should probably stop.

[Reiloth]

How is that mechanics, Moe? I'd really like to know via PM.

Mentioning a spell is mechanics?

Fireball...It's a fireball. It torches people. That's mechanics, I guess.

[manonfire]

Code Select Expand

You must have two hands free to cast that spell.

Really? We both know that's also not true given X Y Z spells cast at X Y Z powers.

Ayup, but not all hybrid burgsorcs are gonna have access to <mystery>, given the assumptions I've made on what spells are included in each of the four paths.

Also, I guess I'll ask again, are there plans to change the name of the guild from sorcerer to something more applicable? The traditional sorcerer connotation doesn't really make sense anymore.

[Cale_Knight]

Also, I guess I'll ask again, are there plans to change the name of the guild from sorcerer to something more applicable? The traditional sorcerer connotation doesn't really make sense anymore.

Then you misunderstand what the term means. They're still sorcerers, most definitely.

[manonfire]

Enlighten me. Honestly curious.