Change implemented for sorcerers

[Nathvaan]

When the Character Generation Points (CGP) was announced, plans were put in place to make some modifications to sorcery magick to allow for characters to have a normal mundane guild and some sorcerer's abilities.

Some testing was done and the decision was made to make sorcerers now utilize this CGP model for sorcery.  While this doesn't remove the sorcerer class as it is now, the model going forward at this point will be the following:

• Sorcerers still require 8 karma or a normal special application to play. (No change here)
• You can choose from any of the normal mundane guilds as your normal 'profession' or main guild:
  
  • Assassin
  • Ranger
  • Merchant
  • Pick-Pocket
  • Burglar
  • Warrior
• You can then choose from one of the sorcerer sub-guilds as a sub-guild:
  
  • Movement Magick
  • Enlightenment Magick
  • Combat Magick
  • Enchantment Magick

I personally am very excited about the possibilities that this will give to more varied possibilities for sorcerer's magick.  Keep in mind, sorcerers are equally hated regardless of how much or little sorcery one uses as always.  This does not mean there will be gemmed sorcerers or that they are in any way more accepted.

You can expect that as this is further play tested, there will be tweaks for balancing needed.  Feedback is always welcome via the request tool should you see something with these new combinations that give some playability concerns.

[Lizzie]

Thanks for putting this in general discussion. I'm confused! Please tell me if I'm right in my understanding, and if I'm wrong, please clarify:

1. The sorcerer main guild still exists, with the usual 8-karma requirement and access to the same "categories" of magic it's always had.
2. Sorc subguilds are also implemented now, and you can choose from the "category" of magicks you want to learn.
3. If you pick a sorc subguild instead of the sorc main guild, you will only have access to whatever "category" you have picked.
4. The sorc main guild remains unchanged with no plans on eliminating; the subguilds are merely another option for those who don't want to go full-on sorc.

In summary - I'm interpreting that this is an addition to the existing system, and not an elimination and replacement of the old one.

Am I understanding this? Or do I have it backward?

[Nathvaan]

Thanks for putting this in general discussion. I'm confused! Please tell me if I'm right in my understanding, and if I'm wrong, please clarify:

1. The sorcerer main guild still exists, with the usual 8-karma requirement and access to the same "categories" of magic it's always had.
2. Sorc subguilds are also implemented now, and you can choose from the "category" of magicks you want to learn.
3. If you pick a sorc subguild instead of the sorc main guild, you will only have access to whatever "category" you have picked.
4. The sorc main guild remains unchanged with no plans on eliminating; the subguilds are merely another option for those who don't want to go full-on sorc.

In summary - I'm interpreting that this is an addition to the existing system, and not an elimination and replacement of the old one.

Am I understanding this? Or do I have it backward?

I should, perhaps, been more clear.  While the sorcerer guild is still implement (hasn't been removed from the game), all playable sorcerers from now on will use the new model.

So you will choose a main guild and then a sorcerer sub-guild upon character generation.  This is a replacement to the previous sorcerer guild for the time being.  We are watching this closely and will be adjusting these things as needed.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

This is actually scarier, in a way. Your change makes playable sorcerers become less all-encompassing spell-wise, but now they are pretty much literally unidentifiable by meta-means because they possess the same talents as anybody else. Correct?

[Lizzie]

And the -extended- subguilds of sorcery will still require 8 karma or a special app with 5 karma, correct?

This offers a more limited version of sorcery for the same amount of karma, with the added bonus that you get to pick a normal regular guild.

I kind of like that. Oddly enough, I've never really considered the idea of apping a sorc before. And now I am. Gotta work on that karma so I can special app it - soon it shall be mine, oh yes!

[nessalin]

The new system for sorcerers is as Nathvaan described.  The old sorcerer guild still exists, as he stated, but it is not available for players.

Yes, the new sorcerers will be indistinguishable from mundanes.  They will have all the skills and abilities of other characters that have chosen the same primary guild.

The game is always changing and doesn't much resemble what it was 20, 15, 10 or even 5 years ago.  Sorcerers, as a primary guild, had become something of an anachronism that weren't in line with how the rest of the game had been moving, even for players with 8 karma.

[Lizzie]

I just really REALLY hope that the staff will continue to pop a full-on sorc into the game once in awhile, whether with a special staff-made character, or a sponsored role character. Sorcery, when seen in its full glory, is spectacularly wickedly crazy scary awesome. I'm glad it's not being eliminated from the game. I just hope to witness it again at some point in the future as a victim, cohort, minion, or merely a witness of something terrifying

[Saellyn]

Kind of looks like sorcerers just took a nerf but still cost the same amount of karma regardless. Dunno how I feel about this.

I would much rather see this system implemented but with a gradual progression in sorcery to the point where the Sorcerer would eventually learn all magic. That's kind of what Sorcery is - he doesn't limit himself to one class of magic, that's what the subguilds were for. Sorcerers learned -all- levels of magic because they cost 8 karma to play and had a massive level of power that was limited by just how widely hated they were.

Maybe when a Sorcerer unlocks every spell in its current path (or masters them or something), the game would make them choose a new class of magic based on that. It would help limit their progression in a way but also focus that progression so it didn't become what I assume is a mind-bogglingly large number of spells to learn in a very short time (given old sorcs kind of were assumed to know every level of magic).

[Cale_Knight]

I love this change. Yeah, Sorcerers are a bit nerfed on the magic side, but they're much more realistically playable now in the context of how player interaction works in this game.

Very cool.

I think Saelllyn may be right about them not quite seeming like 8-karma classes, though. Or maybe not 8 karma for all four subguilds. I dunno. The magic may be nerfed, but some of the potential guild/magick combos available in a single package have never been seen in the game, and have some scary potential. So 8 karma might still be super justified.

[manonfire]

rip sorcerers

[Saellyn]

The subguilds themselves cost less karma than the current guild does and allowed a full on guild class to play with magic, but that was back before this change. Fairly sure the karma for these basic subguilds was listed at something like 3 karma or 4 karma depending. What you've done now is raise the karma requirement for the magick subguild to 8 and tacked it in as the sorcerer guild. That's why I'm kind of edgy about this, unless the CAPABILITY is still there for these sorcerers to learn every level of magick that they had available to them before, but are more limited in progression.


This also brings me to psionicists. Are they going to receive a similar nerfing, like this? Different classes of psionicism based on a choice made by the player? Or are they going to remain the same way?

[Gimfalisette]

I like this. Sorcs always had to flee the city at the earliest possible opportunity so they didn't get guild-sniffed into oblivion, it seemed. Moar bad guys staying in the cities (however they accomplish that) FTW.

[RogueGunslinger]

rip sorcerers

Yeah right. There will still be sorcerers. It's just the new endgame for your half-sorcs to strive for.

[manonfire]

This also brings me to psionicists. Are they going to receive a similar nerfing, like this? Different classes of psionicism based on a choice made by the player? Or are they going to remain the same way?

Not until a psionicist PC owns the class so hard it forces another change - one of Ghost's old PCs had this effect.

[manonfire]

rip sorcerers

Yeah right. There will still be sorcerers. It's just the new endgame for your half-sorcs to strive for.

The PC sorcs of old are dead. Ankha, Shattered, Falcon, etc - PCs will never be able to get that powerful again.

There's a glass ceiling of power in the game, and maxxed sorcs are pressed right against it. This change effectively lowers their ability to get close to that ceiling.

[Saellyn]

So RGS is kind of in the same boat I am right now. Full-power sorcs still exist, it's just going to be more of a challenge to get there. Maybe some staff-guided direction or "visions" that they can receive? I mean, sorcs are few and far between as it is, a full-power sorc is equally few an far between, so staff could cater to them a bit to increase their powers "to" that level of sorcery of old that we always heard about and were frightened of.

[Nyr]

Kind of looks like sorcerers just took a nerf but still cost the same amount of karma regardless. Dunno how I feel about this.

One must take the good with the bad.

There are several things in the game that made more sense at the time, but currently do not.

I think jails are a good example.  Your PC breaks some sort of law locally and the PC is dragged off to jail.  After "serving time" which is really less than an IC day (even if you murdered someone), you get released.  This tends to fly in the face of the expectation that one is playing a character in a real and living world, so much so that the jail experience is often an example of cognitive dissonance: my PC is going to jail for doing a crime, but no one is actually going to punish my PC for it if staff or a PC templar or soldier doesn't notice.  Additionally, who's being punished here:  the PC, or the player?  The PC experiences nothing as a result of being in jail.  The player, on the other hand, is absent from the majority of the game during their jail sentence without PC or staff intervention.  It's almost like spanking the player for playing (we would assume) a realistic PC that is indeed breaking the law.  We allow and even expect that players will play PCs that break the laws of the given city-states within roleplay boundaries, so why the odd situation with the jails? 

The answer is that the game has grown and matured faster than the code.  Roleplay resources are enormous but coding resources are more limited.

[Lizzie]

It's not a nerfing, they've already stated a couple of times that the main guild "sorcery" will continue to exist. It will still be possible to see them in game. We can't play them, but they will continue to exist. Like gith, and mantis. They didn't get nerfed just because we can only play humans/dwarves/elves/half-giants/muls. They're still there. We just can't play them.

HOWEVER

what we CAN do, which we couldn't do before, is have a normal mundane character who can ALSO learn limited amounts of sorcery.

I'd love to see the 8 karma requirement reduced just ONE point to 7, with special apps requiring more scrutiny than other special apps.

Also, previously Saelynn, those extended subguilds weren't even implemented. Until now, NO ONE could pick those extended subguilds. You had to either be a full-on sorc, or not be a full-on sorc. You couldn't also be a ranger. Or a warrior. Or a merchant, or an assassin. You had to pick sorc + regular subguild, and never master any skills other than your sorc skills.

[Saellyn]

Kind of looks like sorcerers just took a nerf but still cost the same amount of karma regardless. Dunno how I feel about this.

One must take the good with the bad.

There are several things in the game that made more sense at the time, but currently do not.

I think jails are a good example.  Your PC breaks some sort of law locally and the PC is dragged off to jail.  After "serving time" which is really less than an IC day (even if you murdered someone), you get released.  This tends to fly in the face of the expectation that one is playing a character in a real and living world, so much so that the jail experience is often an example of cognitive dissonance: my PC is going to jail for doing a crime, but no one is actually going to punish my PC for it if staff or a PC templar or soldier doesn't notice.  Additionally, who's being punished here:  the PC, or the player?  The PC experiences nothing as a result of being in jail.  The player, on the other hand, is absent from the majority of the game during their jail sentence without PC or staff intervention.  It's almost like spanking the player for playing (we would assume) a realistic PC that is indeed breaking the law.  We allow and even expect that players will play PCs that break the laws of the given city-states within roleplay boundaries, so why the odd situation with the jails? 

The answer is that the game has grown and matured faster than the code.  Roleplay resources are enormous but coding resources are more limited.

Granted, I'll accept that, but I still think having a full-power sorc should be on the table. Maybe as a special app, maybe as an "Oh your sorc survived for like two years ig which is really rare for a sorc to do, congratulations you can now learn a new branch of magick!"

Also, jail time -suuuucks- for players, you're right. Maybe you should make a thread asking for a replacement to jails? Although I'd really hate to see -death- being the result of failed crime expeditions.

[HavokBlue]

well, no, that's not strictly true since once all the current old-school sorcs in-game die, you will never again encounter another one played by a PC, barring special exception


Taking bets on how long it takes one of those 'witch hunter' navy SEAL rangers to say something like "oh that abomination will be easy to kill i saw him cast mon un buttsniff so he only has butt-related spells"

[Saellyn]

well, no, that's not strictly true since once all the current old-school sorcs in-game die, you will never again encounter another one played by a PC, barring special exception


Taking bets on how long it takes one of those 'witch hunter' navy SEAL rangers to say something like "oh that abomination will be easy to kill i saw him cast mon un buttsniff so he only has butt-related spells"

This is kind of what I'm worried about. People who make it their life's goal to take on magic users will catch a guy with x type of magick, eventually learn what x type of magick encompasses, then find ways to kill it.

Or, you know, just pull the ol' Ranger Invisimode/Assassin Invisimode with the super awesome stealth gear that people get, and start wrecking the hell out of these guys and basically make them as worthless as they used to be. Your full-on guild warrior sub sorc can be as magickally max powerful as it wants. A rangers poisoned arrow or assassin's poisoned knife is still going to be a pretty fast death.

[Nyr]

Granted, I'll accept that, but I still think having a full-power sorc should be on the table. Maybe as a special app, maybe as an "Oh your sorc survived for like two years ig which is really rare for a sorc to do, congratulations you can now learn a new branch of magick!"

I think we'll put more thought into it before reintroducing a guild that allowed (at least) three times the branching of any other given magicker guild and is nigh unstoppable at the upper end unless staff intervene.

[RogueGunslinger]

well, no, that's not strictly true since once all the current old-school sorcs in-game die, you will never again encounter another one played by a PC, barring special exception


Taking bets on how long it takes one of those 'witch hunter' navy SEAL rangers to say something like "oh that abomination will be easy to kill i saw him cast mon un buttsniff so he only has butt-related spells"

This is kind of what I'm worried about. People who make it their life's goal to take on magic users will catch a guy with x type of magick, eventually learn what x type of magick encompasses, then find ways to kill it.

Or, you know, just pull the ol' Ranger Invisimode/Assassin Invisimode with the super awesome stealth gear that people get, and start wrecking the hell out of these guys and basically make them as worthless as they used to be. Your full-on guild warrior sub sorc can be as magickally max powerful as it wants. A rangers poisoned arrow or assassin's poisoned knife is still going to be a pretty fast death.

I'm not really seeing how this is an issue any more than any other guild-sniffing problem... Except that now the sorc can MUCH easier blend with a main guild.

The idea of the new sorc subguilds being useless because of witch-hunters is questionable. Likely the opposite will occur. These will be the motherfuckers hunting people down.

[Nyr]

This is kind of what I'm worried about. People who make it their life's goal to take on magic users will catch a guy with x type of magick, eventually learn what x type of magick encompasses, then find ways to kill it.

You can find ways to counter any other PC in-game if you put your mind to it, have the skill/talent/resources IC, and a certain amount of luck?  This is a bad thing?

Or, you know, just pull the ol' Ranger Invisimode/Assassin Invisimode with the super awesome stealth gear that people get, and start wrecking the hell out of these guys and basically make them as worthless as they used to be. Your full-on guild warrior sub sorc can be as magickally max powerful as it wants. A rangers poisoned arrow or assassin's poisoned knife is still going to be a pretty fast death.

Truly...we are through the looking glass.  Rangers and Assassins OP.

[HavokBlue]

I don't think sorcs will be useless, and I think these magick subguild options provide some very powerful character combinations that will still yield the most powerful characters in the game in absence of the old full spectrum sorcs.


I just think it's lame that when you see someone use sorcery now, you know "oh his thing is just movement" or "his thing is just making heads explode".