Special applications and opportunities

[Nyr]

Special apps can be applied for at any time. Sponsored roles, no. I know and understand and appreciate the app system. Special apps don't allow for literacy but they do allow for magicker roles. I don't see the reason for this distinction.

Honestly you can special app for literacy, too, there's nothing stopping you from doing that.

[Harmless]

Special apps can be applied for at any time. Sponsored roles, no. I know and understand and appreciate the app system. Special apps don't allow for literacy but they do allow for magicker roles. I don't see the reason for this distinction.

Honestly you can special app for literacy, too, there's nothing stopping you from doing that.

First I heard it Nyr. Thanks. It should be more formalized.

[Barsook]

Special apps can be applied for at any time. Sponsored roles, no. I know and understand and appreciate the app system. Special apps don't allow for literacy but they do allow for magicker roles. I don't see the reason for this distinction.

Honestly you can special app for literacy, too, there's nothing stopping you from doing that.

First I heard it Nyr. Thanks. It should be more formalized.

+1

[Nyr]

Special apps can be applied for at any time. Sponsored roles, no. I know and understand and appreciate the app system. Special apps don't allow for literacy but they do allow for magicker roles. I don't see the reason for this distinction.

Honestly you can special app for literacy, too, there's nothing stopping you from doing that.

First I heard it Nyr. Thanks. It should be more formalized.

What else is a special application for if not to apply for something you can't normally get?  It isn't going to ever be that formalized when it concerns things that are outside of normal guild lists.

[Harmless]

Special apps can be applied for at any time. Sponsored roles, no. I know and understand and appreciate the app system. Special apps don't allow for literacy but they do allow for magicker roles. I don't see the reason for this distinction.

Honestly you can special app for literacy, too, there's nothing stopping you from doing that.

First I heard it Nyr. Thanks. It should be more formalized.

What else is a special application for if not to apply for something you can't normally get?  It isn't going to ever be that formalized when it concerns things that are outside of normal guild lists.

If there were a karma point value attached to literacy then it would have been more obvious to be that it could be special apped. The special app system can be used to apply for higher than your limit of karma, which means extended subguilds and mainguilds and races. Literacy currently doesn't have karma associated with it. It was therefore not obvious to me that it could also be special apped for.

I am quite sure I was not the only one who didn't know you could special app a literate PC who isn't a noble or GMH family member.

[Nyr]

Request to play a character that is not available to you through the normal application process.

Any special skills or abilities beyond what the normal race/guild/sub-guild would provide for.

Why this is a special application (please limit this to a paragraph or two)

Yes, you can also use it to apply for roles that are within the range of karma you are allowed to apply for.  We have pretty much always had a policy of not describing what will and won't be accepted for a special application.  I only mentioned literacy here because it was somehow being overlooked that one can special app for things; it doesn't mean it will get accepted.

[Harmless]

I guess I might have someday realized that the language here:

Any special skills or abilities beyond what the normal race/guild/sub-guild would provide for.

Why this is a special application (please limit this to a paragraph or two)

applies for literacy. The framing of the statement implies that the special app is mainly for guild, race, and subguild restrictions. Given that literacy isn't formally included in any guild, race, or subguild's set of abilities, I never intuited that literacy could also be applied for.

I would suggest the statement be amended to have this too:

Any special skills or abilities beyond what the normal race/guild/sub-guild/social caste would provide for.

Why this is a special application (please limit this to a paragraph or two)

Literacy is a skill available only to certain castes. Other things that are normally restricted to certain castes might also be special apped for. For instance, a noble who has the labyrinth accent might be special apped for, as a noble would normally not have that accent.

This would be enough for me to be sure that everyone making special apps knew what their actual range of options included.

[Nyr]

Guilds, subguilds, and races are coded values.  For that matter, literacy is applied to some guilds (templars, for instance), but those are not normal guilds, so that assumption is incorrect.

Social caste is not a coded value. 

I've changed the wording for the helpfile, but not for that page:

Players may submit up to three special applications per year, at most one per month. A special application allows players to request to play a character that is beyond what the normal application process would provide for. This might be any number of things. For karma guilds, this means that a player may apply for a role up to three karma points higher than their current karma level.

We are also currently testing out extended subguilds and skill increases using the same process for special applications. See the helpfiles on both of these subjects for details.

All Special Applications should be submitted through the Request Tool.

Sorry for any confusion there.  Special applications are for you to fill in and define within the guidelines provided.  We won't be offering every possible example of what one could do with them, because one might think that the things listed are the only things one can do with them.

[Nyr]

I've split this thread off because it has been a tangent from the Guild of Records thread.

[Gimfalisette]

Didn't mansa once, legendarily, special app to play a rock? And then he got it and did play a rock? (It could have been someone else.)

Not that it would get approved today, because really, who wants to play a rock? (Other than mansa.)

Anyone who has played the game for a while and attempted to special-app or sponsored-role-app is bound to have been rejected for some concept or combination of requests. It has happened to everyone. It doesn't mean staff doesn't like you (as a HIVE MIND), or some staffers don't like you individually. It just means at that moment in time, you didn't get that role or request, for reasons. That's it.

True story: Once, a staffer who I thought hated me emailed me and offered me a role. I was like, "WTF?!?!?!" I guess that staffer didn't hate me after all.

Lesson: Perception and feeling do not necessarily match reality.

From personal experience, it is very valuable to read and learn from the feedback you have been given by staff. They are generous with their comments, and if you mature and fix your problems, then you'll be able to gain their trust and get the roles you want. None of us was perfect when we started playing; we've all had our problems. (I bet Nyr was a real punk.)

[RogueGunslinger]

I've found staff to be incredibly accommodating of my special applications. Special Apps have always been, in my mind, for the people who want to make an interesting concept that doesn't quite fit within the confines of what it codedly possible. Honestly your imagination is the only thing stopping you from trying something cool out.

For instance I special apped a human that was codedly taller than any human can be through selection process(though not unrealistically so). That character also got some buffs of combat skills hidden and visible, and was also given a bunch of starting gear that fit his background.

I imagine apps like that aren't incredibly common, but are the type of thing staff probably has no qualms with setting up, if your concept is interesting and realistic, and you're not just doing it to have an "uber powerful character to blow shit up with and surpass the grind."

[Twilight]

Special app is just the way staff have decided to channel all the oddball requests they used to get through e-mail.  Anything special, that isn't obviously prohibited (e.g. you used to be able to special app for slaves this way, but now it would be useless to).

It is also possible to request things to be removed.

It might be a skill, but also might be something like eyesight, or an arm (if you wanted a missing-an-arm scar to go along with this concept) or a leg.

[Zoan]

I don't think they've ever denied me a special app, beyond my complete newbish shit from when I was a newcomer (like apping for a mindbender not realizing how crazy they are). I think Sanvean was like 'Awww, try again later.'

[RogueGunslinger]

I don't think they've ever denied me a special app, beyond my complete newbish shit from when I was a newcomer (like apping for a mindbender not realizing how crazy they are). I think Sanvean was like 'Awww, try again later.'

I tried to do the same thing(make a mindbender), back before it was made clear you can't special app over 3 karma above your limit(felt like more of a guideline back then). I thought if I tacked on enough hindering factors(one handed, mental issues, rough life) staff would accept it regardless of me being a noob. Was rejected but they gave me a nice message about how there was nothing wrong with the concept, that they liked it, just didn't know if I was ready for that sort of power.

[Zoan]

You at least were aware of their power and tried to impose handicaps. I straight up just wanted to be Xavier. I'm sure the staff thought it was cute/tedious (I bet every newbie does it).

[Tuannon]

Lesson: Gimfy is still awesome even though none (?) of our roles have ever been on good terms.

[number13]

I'll never stop being mad about my telekinetic  floating skull special app being denied. I'm pretty sure it's because I asked that the skull be made literate.

[Beethoven]

I'll never stop being mad about my telekinetic  floating skull special app being denied. I'm pretty sure it's because I asked that the skull be made literate.

oh my tek, lulz.

I like special apps. I've had 3/4 approved (although I will admit one was just an extended subguild), and the one I had rejected was because I tried to app a Nilazi when the only magickers I'd ever played were really shitty Vivaduans. Silly Beethoven, Nilazi are for grown-ups!

I haven't really thought about special apping for literacy or anything like that, but that's probably mostly because I haven't been thinking creatively enough to come up with an idea more original than "i want 2 play a hi karma class plz."

[Delusion]

I have a small handful of character concepts that I thought were out of the question due to having unusual backgrounds or suchlike, and was always under the impression that special applications were for coded stuff only. I'm not certain why.

To be less vague, I'm thinking of stuff like: a servant of a House with family who are also servants of the House, and where it really doesn't make a tremendous amount of sense for that character to enter the game unemployed, and owning just some tatty clothes, a couple bits of meat, and 800 coins. Or for an example that would be less intrusive on the average clan, characters who have pre-existing relationships with actual, tangible NPCs. Or even just an affluent character, who starts with some nice clothes and a stack of cash. Or a slave character, in certain circumstances (the trusted, skilled variety of slave).

Are these suitable things for special applications?

[Rahnevyn]

You could always submit a Question request if you're unsure whether something would require a special app. Any application that needs special setup from staff, be it extra money or clothes or skills or so on, should probably go through a special app, as the helpfile Nyr linked states.

A slave character would likely be only allowed via special app, or via a sponsored role call.

If you wanted to include an NPC in your background, it's maybe worth just submitting a question about it prior to submitting the character. I don't know if just being Vennant's niece, for example, is worth being charged a special app for, but I also don't know that being Vennant's niece would give you any real special privilege anyway. Depending on circumstances, the staff could make a call on whether such a character would be a normal app, a special app, or just not possible.

[Delirium]

Considering NPCs basically live forever that could get kind of weird.

[BadSkeelz]

Would Vennant count towards your family member cap?

[Is Friday]

I was asked to point out some of my really terrible account notes to show some other players that "recovering" from being "black balled" is possible. I'm currently at 5 karma.

with Ao, sunrunner zarajiri, they led a sunback down a chasm
wall, it emoted a broken leg, they hauled it onward not paying attention.  
Forced the already pained and angry beast to do as she wanted -
12/13/07
(cont) After screaming and yanking on the reins a few times, the
sunback attacked her.  She beat it down with clubs, it emoted it was barely
living, comatose.  She then brought it kegs of liquor to carry, and logged
out,... - 12/13/07


Ao sends this message to the staff, from room #66656
(Dusty Plains)  "Bored. Character hiding in desert, tracking tarantula."  
Moments later:  *BING* - 12/17/07
More than one character (Tukazi, Ao)
disappeared to apparent suicides for special app roles later. -
1/02/08


Repeated special app suicides. Strongly reccommend no special roles in
the future. - 6/08/08


Thrice rejected PC "zerkie" when player was slightly
changing sdesc and fishing for approval.  I hate to say it, but is 2 karma too
much? - 3/05/09


As others do agree, this player is a
superstar when they know they are being watched, but tend to slack and go for
gain during the slow times.  Also common to suicide during boredom. -
8/10/09


botched special role w/ Ueka, suicided and looked for new roles before even
starting / telling clan staff -  6/08/08.

Set karma to 0, Ignores clan
documentation, fucks up special roles, gives paper-thin reports, leaves vital
information out of any report that is given, and is generally a bad example
for newbs. -  5/08/09.


Set karma to 1, Granted back 1 karma, as they have
earned this through positive comments -  5/22/09.
Set karma to 2, The player
helped to guide conversation away from IC information during the oregon APM
tele-chat on 3 occasions.  Please see my comments above on this date. -  
8/10/09.
Set karma to 3, Took the restrictions and such of Kadian Junior
Trader in great stride, and was very responsible about it. -  8/21/10.
Set
karma to 4, as per notes -  1/29/12.
Set karma to 5, point for communication -
8/07/14.

Outside hunting alone during EST mornings, wearing no Byn gear. No emotes or RP. - 9/01/08

nowished after being asked not to wish on behalf of xxxx (acct) who was also nowished. - 9/08/08

    Gus (xxxxx) fell and died from the fall.
    Fell down the well on the grassy knoll in Tuluk. Who knows why she was trying to get in there. - 10/11/08

Militia recruit in the Rinth in the early AM? - 12/13/08

Walks around Tuluk naked or half naked often - 2/22/09
Salarri Family - 2/14/09

    Ozel (Strouticus) has been killed by a player, amen.
    Militia recruit in the rinth. Not the first time, probably won't be the last. - 3/21/09

Taken down to 34/118hp, slept until 58, got up and started riding off without RPing any wounds until an echo about being in pain. - 3/28/09

Is playing one of the worst Akei'ta var in my memory. Lets animals suffer to test city folk, and refers to herself as "Akeita's Boot up Roundear Ass." - 5/07/09

Wandering around the rinth in the AM, attacking NPCs. - 6/06/09

Masturbating in the barracks (r13337) - 7/06/09

Practically naked in Allanak. - 4/30/10

Didn't boost skills as much as the player wanted; they complained, complaint was rejected. - 7/03/11
When they died, they gave a rather whiny complaint as well, then a complaint about how the whiny complaint was treated. - 7/03/11

Arena Champion of 2012! - 1/29/12

[Riev]

Set karma to 0, Ignores clan
documentation, fucks up special roles, gives paper-thin reports, leaves vital
information out of any report that is given, and is generally a bad example
for newbs. - 5/08/09.

Set karma to 1, Granted back 1 karma, as they have
earned this through positive comments - 5/22/09.

Set karma to 2, The player
helped to guide conversation away from IC information during the oregon APM
tele-chat on 3 occasions.  Please see my comments above on this date. - 
8/10/09.

After quite a list of "This guy is seriously fucking up" and "Man, is 2 karma even enough trust", you got busted down to 0 karma for poor communication. Two weeks, to the day, later, you got one back for "positive commments"?

And then 3 months later, a karma for going to an APM?


Man. If I want to get out of this 1karma slump, I gotta start rounding up players, and then telling them we can't talk about the game.

[Twilight]

And I thought my account notes were bad.  Oh wait, they are.

The speed of those changes seems  unusual.  I can only guess that they point to awesomesauce in between the noted occurances, and would encourage everyone to be as awesome as IsFriday.

[Is Friday]

The reason I got wiped was because of a player complaint accusing one of my PCs of doing X. I filed a petition about it, since my PC didn't do X. Once it was investigated it was ruled that my PC didn't actually do X, they put me back to 1 karma. Then 2 when they felt like it.

Karma points 1-2 aren't really all that hard to get, any way you look at it. All you have to do is not be a tard.

Riev:
Are you filing reports regularly? Mine take me about 15 minutes a week. I write 5-8 sentences for most reports and that's on my busy PCs. (Summarize.)

Are you accurately representing the game world in regards to social class, racial differences, culture, and clan documentation?

If you're doing both of those things you should ask for a review. If you're not doing these things, you've not given staff much grounds to bump you up. Being high karma is about representing the game world, not about doing what you want. All of the karma roles are restrictive and should be lending to the game rather than giving to you.

edit:
I'll also point out that once I filed a response to Nyr telling him "go fuck yourself". So while I don't recommend this course of action, I share this to illuminate the fact that 1.) I'm not a suck up. 2.) I've had my disagreements with staff even at 3-4 karma. 3.) Communication is only effective when you are receptive, not just yelling about your own issues.

[Harmless]

Even if my posts on karma and special apps may sound whiney, overall I am still happy with arma. I am also glad I started these threads as I have learned much about the game I wouldn't have otherwise. I dont chat with peeps about the game outside of the gdb so this is likely the only way I would have learned these things. I am thankful to all of you who helped me out.

[Riev]

Representing the game world... partially.

Communication is where I'm at fault, and I know that, actually. I used to have 3 karma, but I got drunk one night and pissed at being in "yet another leader situation where my staffers aren't able to properly oversee my playtimes" and suicided. Hey, thems the breaks.

Also I lost another one for joining a shadow board nobody wants to talk about.

I've said before though, 1 karma is really all anyone needs to "be happy". I've played a few magickers in the past, and they honestly encourage me to be even more twinky than I already am. The only reason I'd want more karma is for a very particular app I have in mind, that might not even be possible anymore with a lot of the magicker and city changes. *shrug*

Karma works, generally speaking, but even after adding some rigidity to the rules and things it represents, I still wonder just how objective "trust" can be.

[RogueGunslinger]

Wait a second, do we lose karma for reading that board? Because I'm fairly sure everyone reads that goddamn board. That would be ridiculous.

Or were you posting secrets?

[MeTekillot]

How vague.

[Adhira]

Wait a second, do we lose karma for reading that board? ...... That would be ridiculous.

[Delirium]

shadow board

[Riev]

Wait a second, do we lose karma for reading that board? Because I'm fairly sure everyone reads that goddamn board. That would be ridiculous.

Or were you posting secrets?

In specific, I was not posting secrets, but was talking very plainly about current PCs and their abilities (at least, at the time). I was so focused on "who can I fight" that I wasn't really thinking about what I was asking.

I'm pretty open about the fact that I'm on that board, I didn't change my name there and I also contribute to discussions. But I don't post actual secrets or talk about players.

[Reiloth]

RE: Shadow Boards
It's kind of like a diet.

You know when you are eating (consuming) something bad for you. I find it sad that people devote their time to the GDB rather than playing the game. I find it an ultimate atrocity that people who cannot or will not play ArmageddonMUD devote precious minutes and hours of their life on a simulacrum board discussing this 'horrible game' run by 'horrible dictator Staff' with such black and white absolutes that I can't see what's gained by contributing.

--

On the topic of special applications and roles and such...

I guess I have an exceptional track record with these kinds of things. I'm not the kind of player that only applies for special roles and finds mundane/the run of the mill boring. But also, almost all of the special applications i've applied for, i've been approved for.

I think that's because (in retrospect), the roles I applied for were within my karmic reach, and also my applications were pretty spanky! I've also been denied role applications, and a couple of times I threw inappropriate tizzies for not being picked, being the spoiled child that I am and wanting 'it all' because 'I deserve it!'. I've had my fair share of bad account notes, and also the retrospective 'hey this guy isn't that bad, let's give him a second chance' corrections.

Your best bet with getting the 'most out of this game' is:
*Communicate with Staff via Character Reports or just Taking it Seriously
*Do not communicate with players via AIM/whatever bullshit is out there now-a-days
*Play the game GREAT (Great RP Ever Always Toocoolforschool)
*Don't worry about Skills. They take care of themselves.
*It's not a big deal. Whatever you think is a big deal, it's really not that big of a deal.

[Kevo]

Your best bet with getting the 'most out of this game' is:
*Communicate with Staff via Character Reports or just Taking it Seriously
*Do not communicate with players via AIM/whatever bullshit is out there now-a-days
*Play the game GREAT (Great RP Ever Always Toocoolforschool)
*Don't worry about Skills. They take care of themselves.
*It's not a big deal. Whatever you think is a big deal, it's really not that big of a deal.

I have a decent amount of karma, and my fair share of good and bad account notes, and I'd like to point out that the above is really good advice. Especially the last part.

Re: The Shadow boards, I'm almost certain those boards are some sort of staff meta-plot to gauge player's (possibly more honest due to anonymity) feelings regarding the game and divulge some secrets about history or magic for those MUST know. That may just be an aspect of my ever present paranoia..... But I'm digressing, obviously.

I just popped in to reiterate the advice above, as I believe number one, good communication is one of the few reasons my spec apps are often approved (like 75%, but don't despair, I rarely send in spec apps) despite past immature behavior.

Also, don't lurk as much as I do. It's unseemly.

[LauraMars]

Stay on topic, guys.  I moved some posts from here to a new topic in Non Armageddon Discussion, but do we really need to discuss the evil gdb at all?  You know it feeds the trolls.

[mansa]

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php?topic=5208.0

How OOC Talk Killed a Quest

[Riev]

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php?topic=5208.0

How OOC Talk Killed a Quest

One time, a Jew killed Jesus. All Jews are bad.


/snarkyresponsetoaonetimeevent

I do agree with Reiloth though... Specifically "its not a big deal". Not getting picked for something just means someone else had a better idea. However, "not communicating with other people" is the dumbest suggestion, because there's no way I'm going to play an awesome storytelling game, but not talk to anyone else that plays it.

Seriously. The game is built on stories, but we're only allowed to tell the people in our lives that don't give half a shit about this text-based game what happened? My girlfriend hates this game and doesn't care at all what I'm talking about.

[icewindsong]

I was reading about mutants, and I saw the parts where an advantage, or serious disadvantage require a special application.  

What about a minor disadvantage or inconvenience?  Say a character had a tail, and you didn't want to go the route of saying she could never wear leg armor (serious disadvantage) but instead say that her leg region gets a -1 to its base armor rating (minor disadvantage) because even tailored for her the armor leaves part of her tail uncovered..?  Would it take a special app?

[James de Monet]

I'm going to hazard a guess that if you want coded changes to your character, the answer to whether that will require a special app is always going to be "yes".

[Barzalene]

There will also be a real social disadvantage. People will not look so kindly on people with tails.

[icewindsong]

Social disadvantage would be a big part of the reason for making a character like that.  I don't mean some cute furry tail with a ribbon or bell on it, but some horrible gnarled scaly appendage that is coded also to occasionally maybe trip her while she's walking.   My first character will be pretty, but a repulsive one will be fun to play too someday.

[Is Friday]

Catgirl 2: The Struggle Is Real

[manonfire]

Don't even bring that up.

[RogueGunslinger]

  I don't mean some cute furry tail with a ribbon or bell on it, but some horrible gnarled scaly appendage that is coded also to occasionally maybe trip her while she's walking.

There's no need for code for something like that when you can simply emote it happening. It would be neat, but it's not really the sort of thing staff would just whip up the code for whenever someone asks.

[icewindsong]

I guess.  I thought it would be more fun when it was a surprise to the player, too, when it happens.

[Reiloth]

If your character also happens to get shit-faced drunk all of the time, then you will definitely be tripping all over yourself.

[FantasyWriter]

Most Zalathan parents, when presented with a mutated child, would most likely either killed the child because they believed it to be cursed by magick or afraid that others would think THEY were cursed by magick.  That or sell them to the traveling circus or some eccentric slave collector.

[Beethoven]

Even as deeply-ingrained as the stigma against mutation is, I'd suspect that more than a handful of Zalanthans would swear that they would do exactly what you described and kill the infant freak, but might reconsider if actually put in that position. The parent-child bond, particularly the mother-child bond (since she has had a relationship of sorts with the child for months before its birth) is hardwired and primal, transcending reason. I suspect that a lot of Zalanthan parents, unable to slaughter their own babies, would abandon them in an alley instead, assuring themselves that the situation is out of their hands.

However, I'm inclined to think that there are many others who would be unable to do even that. I imagine that most of them would try to hide the child's mutation if possible, and if the mutation is too severe to hide, instead attempt to conceal the child's existence. Such children would almost certainly never be treated as well as any "normal" siblings, and would probably be expected to go out on their own as soon as possible, retaining only an uneasy relationship with the parents, if any.

I don't doubt that there would be Zalanthans who would smother the infant in an instant rather than be exposed to...whatever made it look that way. But I don't think that parents grudgingly raising a mutant child would be that off-the-wall.

[HavokBlue]

Unless the docs have changed significantly since or my memory is falling apart, the stigma against mutation isn't nearly as strong as some of you guys are making it out to be. Particularly in Red Storm, where they are mentioned to be more common, or Tuluk, where mutants have played a significant historical role (see: Thryzn).

[Barzalene]

Even as deeply-ingrained as the stigma against mutation is, I'd suspect that more than a handful of Zalanthans would swear that they would do exactly what you described and kill the infant freak, but might reconsider if actually put in that position. The parent-child bond, particularly the mother-child bond (since she has had a relationship of sorts with the child for months before its birth) is hardwired and primal, transcending reason. I suspect that a lot of Zalanthan parents, unable to slaughter their own babies, would abandon them in an alley instead, assuring themselves that the situation is out of their hands.

However, I'm inclined to think that there are many others who would be unable to do even that. I imagine that most of them would try to hide the child's mutation if possible, and if the mutation is too severe to hide, instead attempt to conceal the child's existence. Such children would almost certainly never be treated as well as any "normal" siblings, and would probably be expected to go out on their own as soon as possible, retaining only an uneasy relationship with the parents, if any.

I don't doubt that there would be Zalanthans who would smother the infant in an instant rather than be exposed to...whatever made it look that way. But I don't think that parents grudgingly raising a mutant child would be that off-the-wall.

When I played a family kadian, I had an awesome imm. She roled for pregnancy,  miscarriage, stillbirth, death in childbirth and birth defects. Had a child with an extra finger. Me and my cousin did what any good parent would do. We chopped that finger off and rode to Luirs and claimed an elf attacked us.

[FantasyWriter]

Unless the docs have changed significantly since or my memory is falling apart, the stigma against mutation isn't nearly as strong as some of you guys are making it out to be. Particularly in Red Storm, where they are mentioned to be more common, or Tuluk, where mutants have played a significant historical role (see: Thryzn).

I think the docs, for the most part, are referring to more subtle mutations than a tail that would require pants modifications.

[RogueGunslinger]

Unless the docs have changed significantly since or my memory is falling apart, the stigma against mutation isn't nearly as strong as some of you guys are making it out to be. Particularly in Red Storm, where they are mentioned to be more common, or Tuluk, where mutants have played a significant historical role (see: Thryzn).

I think the docs, for the most part, are referring to more subtle mutations than a tail that would require pants modifications.

You can expect the more severe the mutation the more sever the stigma. Someone with two heads, for example, would likely never survive in zalanthas past birth. Someone with a tail would likely be treated with some of the same contempt and disgust a breed would face.

[FantasyWriter]

Nod, RGS.

Also, Beethoven (RE: Parenthood), remember that selling children into slavery and leaving to die of exposure due to financial hardship or other social/personal reason is far from being a rare occurrence on Zalanthas.  Look at Earth: people STILL let children die of exposure, sometimes for no more reason than being born the wrong sex.  People still sell their own children into slavery (usually as sex slaves).
It hasn't been too long, since selling children into slavery was both legal common place in many counties.

Warm gooey feelings for your children don't happen for everyone at or before birth (otherwise late term abortion wouldn't be an issue at all). Sometimes, it doesn't happen at all.
Most people, even moderate pro-lifers, like myself feel that abortion is acceptable when a child will have mental/physical issues that will leave them with a poor quality of life.  Zalanthans are much less forgiven than Terran humans. Mutation is a social stigma, even in the best of cases. At worst, it is "evidence" of abominable magicks.

[FantasyWriter]

That being said, playing a mutant can lead to some GREAT RP.
I am far from being anti-mutant, OOCly.

Proof, one of my OLD PCs:

Thought I'd posted this is this thread before, but I guess not....

Dusaar (the clawed, razor-toothed mutant [dwarf])

[HavokBlue]

Unless the docs have changed significantly since or my memory is falling apart, the stigma against mutation isn't nearly as strong as some of you guys are making it out to be. Particularly in Red Storm, where they are mentioned to be more common, or Tuluk, where mutants have played a significant historical role (see: Thryzn).

I think the docs, for the most part, are referring to more subtle mutations than a tail that would require pants modifications.

You can expect the more severe the mutation the more sever the stigma. Someone with two heads, for example, would likely never survive in zalanthas past birth. Someone with a tail would likely be treated with some of the same contempt and disgust a breed would face.

Or maybe they become successful businessmen

Grobbuluk says hi

[Beethoven]

I know selling one's child or letting them die is not rare on Zalanthas, and it has happened historically and continues to happen, sadly, on Earth.

I'm just saying that it isn't unrealistic to expect that parental instincts would take over in some cases. Doesn't seem crazy at all to me. Killing/selling/abandoning the mutant is not the only realistic Zalanthan reaction, IMO.

But all of this is off-topic, of course.

[Case]

That being said, playing a mutant can lead to some GREAT RP.
I am far from being anti-mutant, OOCly.

Proof, one of my OLD PCs:

Thought I'd posted this is this thread before, but I guess not....

Dusaar (the clawed, razor-toothed mutant [dwarf])

No way he's a mutant. He looks like most Amosi.

[Harmless]

For my last mutant's background I had the effects of his mutation (uneven scales that grew over old wounds instead of normal scar tissue) start in his early teens. In a sense his mutation manifested late.