Guild of records

[Nyr]

Funny you say that, because special apps fly in the face of the "we don't hand out karma for free here" sentiment. And people report enjoying them.

What is your point?  Just like with karma, special applications are determined by whether we think the player is trustworthy enough to handle it.  They are certainly not handed out for free.

[Desertman]

I paid $18 a piece for every karma point I have. If someone has been getting it for free....I'm going to be pretty pissed.

[Is Friday]

I paid $18 a piece for every karma point I have. If someone has been getting it for free....I'm going to be pretty pissed.



Also, only role I ever had that was literate was a non-karma assassin character who was a distant relatively/noble bastard.

I do support more widespread literacy.

It cost me at least 200 hours of circlejerking for each point of karma that I've been granted. Time is money.

[Desertman]

Also, only role I ever had that was literate was a non-karma assassin character who was a hidden literate pc that was a commoner/noble bastard mix. It is with everlasting shame that I admit he was basically Fitz Chivalry from the Farseer books. I even tried to name him Chivalry at first, and they wouldn't let me, and put in my notes that I read too many Farseer books.

If they will let a 15 year old retard like me (at the time) who wrote up a concept like that have literacy even after fixing my stupidity in my own app......I don't think this is as highly guarded as you think.

I do support more widespread literacy.

[williamson]

     One problem with the expansion of literacy in the game would be the loss of mystery of in-game secrets. Currently, your PC's death wipes all your gained IC knowledge out of the game. If lots of people had literacy, their death might leave behind books and scrolls with valuable knowledge. Over time, there would be more and more books containing more and more knowledge such as mysteries about crafting, spices, cures, poisons, or magick. The long term result would be a much easier time learning important game secrets. To me, this would be a turn for the worse for the game. There already a lot of ways to play characters that can read and write such as: 1) playing a templar; 2) playing a noble; 3) playing a GMH family member; and 4) joining a GMH and obtaining a high rank. On that list, the fourth requires no karma to achieve. In addition, I've seen two other characters learn to read and write through alternative means. This leaves a lot of options open for characters to learn to read and write. Unfortunately, none of it is particularly as easy as picking a subguild, but I don't think it should be. You can do it. It's just not going to be easy.

[Marauder Moe]

I respect the opinion of those who say don't create more options to have literacy due to realism. I also point out that many in this thread who share that opinion have actually either been literate before or likely have the karma and or track record of being accepted into sponsored roles.

If you actually respected the opinion of people who disagree with you, then you wouldn't be ranting and attributing selfish motivations to them.


Anyway, I'll chime in and say that adding a (karma-required extended) subguild for literacy without actually changing the IG legality of it is a fine idea.  I don't think it's a good enough tool for players to ever affect large-scale change in this regard, but if people want to play underground outlaw bookworms I'm OK with that.

[Desertman]

underground outlaw bookworms

[Beethoven]

Is this extended subguild going to be race-restricted or can I finally app the rebellious half-giant scholar I've always dreamed of playing?

[Cutthroat]

I agree with the idea of an extended subguild option for literacy, to keep it uncommon but still open up the possibility of playing an unusual role where a non-noble/GMH person is literate (e.g., an escaped slave that used to be a scribe). It seems like an elegant solution to the problem here and might be an occasional conflict-starter.

Edit to add: As to the notion of fairness/unfairness with regards to karma, sponsored/special roles, mango pops, etc., that is probably a topic for another thread.

[Beethoven]

In all seriousness, though, I think the ext. subguild thing could definitely work.

[Harmless]

     One problem with the expansion of literacy in the game would be the loss of mystery of in-game secrets. Currently, your PC's death wipes all your gained IC knowledge out of the game. If lots of people had literacy, their death might leave behind books and scrolls with valuable knowledge. Over time, there would be more and more books containing more and more knowledge such as mysteries about crafting, spices, cures, poisons, or magick. The long term result would be a much easier time learning important game secrets. To me, this would be a turn for the worse for the game. There already a lot of ways to play characters that can read and write such as: 1) playing a templar; 2) playing a noble; 3) playing a GMH family member; and 4) joining a GMH and obtaining a high rank. On that list, the fourth requires no karma to achieve. In addition, I've seen two other characters learn to read and write through alternative means. This leaves a lot of options open for characters to learn to read and write. Unfortunately, none of it is particularly as easy as picking a subguild, but I don't think it should be. You can do it. It's just not going to be easy.

i hate to break it to you, but secrets are spread person to person oocly. I don't see your point as a reason not to add more literacy at all.

Funny you say that, because special apps fly in the face of the "we don't hand out karma for free here" sentiment. And people report enjoying them.

What is your point?  Just like with karma, special applications are determined by whether we think the player is trustworthy enough to handle it.  They are certainly not handed out for free.

Special apps can be applied for at any time. Sponsored roles, no. I know and understand and appreciate the app system. Special apps don't allow for literacy but they do allow for magicker roles. I don't see the reason for this distinction.

[Desertman]

I've also applied for a sponsored role in the past, when it wasn't called for, and got it. *shrug*

The worst that can happen is you are told no.

[LauraMars]

    One problem with the expansion of literacy in the game would be the loss of mystery of in-game secrets. Currently, your PC's death wipes all your gained IC knowledge out of the game. If lots of people had literacy, their death might leave behind books and scrolls with valuable knowledge. Over time, there would be more and more books containing more and more knowledge such as mysteries about crafting, spices, cures, poisons, or magick. The long term result would be a much easier time learning important game secrets. To me, this would be a turn for the worse for the game. There already a lot of ways to play characters that can read and write such as: 1) playing a templar; 2) playing a noble; 3) playing a GMH family member; and 4) joining a GMH and obtaining a high rank. On that list, the fourth requires no karma to achieve. In addition, I've seen two other characters learn to read and write through alternative means. This leaves a lot of options open for characters to learn to read and write. Unfortunately, none of it is particularly as easy as picking a subguild, but I don't think it should be. You can do it. It's just not going to be easy.

All four of those roles require no karma to achieve.    

I disagree with your reasons for keeping literacy relegated to those four roles - people already leave behind "valuable books and scrolls" with IC knowledge in them, and people with literacy already read these scrolls. A few more people being literate (illegally) isn't going to cause the total collapse of all IC learning and discovery.  It will simply add another way for a few more lucky people to learn something in game. 

I think Moe's idea of a karma-required extended subguild with literacy is a good one, but...yeah, it should come with all the attendant risks that being literate as a commoner does now.  Since you currently need a special application to apply for an extended subguild anyway, staff will already be evaluating your trustworthiness to handle such a role, just as they would if you applied for a templar, noble, or gmh family member.

Anyway, I'm not married to the idea of expanded IG literacy.  I like it, but I'm sure there's higher priority projects that staff are working on right now that would add more to the game.

[Lizzie]

I respect the opinion of those who say don't create more options to have literacy due to realism. I also point out that many in this thread who share that opinion have actually either been literate before or likely have the karma and or track record of being accepted into sponsored roles.

Either you're not including me in your "I respect the opinion" or you didn't actually pay attention to my post, or any posts I've made with regards to anything involving the "realism" card. So I guess I'm excluded from your respect. Sucks to be me, I can live with it.

I don't do ANYTHING in Armageddon for realism. I do it for fun, fantasy, practicality, playability. Not having widespread literacy in Armageddon isn't my idea of fun OR fantasy. It would dilute the fun and fantasy.  You also didn't seem to grasp the point I was trying to make with my comment about having played a literate character. The point, was that the ONLY thing that was especially exciting about being literate, once I was finally allowed to play someone literate, was being able to read locked up books. Most of my interaction with other PCs was done "live" or over the way, and so being literate had very little practical use. The actual practical use my PC got out of it was incredibly sparse and limited. I wrote up a proposal for my character's house for the Senate meeting.

That's not something anyone with a subguild would ever have any reason to do. It IS something that someone with a sponsored role or an "earned rank" role would have reason to do.

I never had to send scrolls to minions, because I only hired minions who were available when I was available. I never had to send scrolls to other Houses, because there were always people in other Houses available to pass verbal messages. Any time I needed (and still need) to send messages to a house where there aren't any available PCs when I'm playing, I send a message through the staff of the game. So - no need for literacy there either.

There is nothing about literacy that would ADD to the game, that would equal or exceed the mystery and excitement of its current rarity.

If you want to play a literate character, app for the noble role in Allanak that was just posted, or wait for another literate character roll call, or play a non-sponsored, clanned person who rises to the rank in which he/she would earn the right to learn it.

If you're not willing to do any of the AVAILABLE things to get this skill you want, what makes you think anyone would be willing to grant you that skill even if it was implemented on a more widespread level?

[Harmless]

I respect the opinion of those who say don't create more options to have literacy due to realism. I also point out that many in this thread who share that opinion have actually either been literate before or likely have the karma and or track record of being accepted into sponsored roles.

Either you're not including me in your "I respect the opinion" or you didn't actually pay attention to my post, or any posts I've made with regards to anything involving the "realism" card. So I guess I'm excluded from your respect. Sucks to be me, I can live with it.

I don't do ANYTHING in Armageddon for realism. I do it for fun, fantasy, practicality, playability. Not having widespread literacy in Armageddon isn't my idea of fun OR fantasy. It would dilute the fun and fantasy.  You also didn't seem to grasp the point I was trying to make with my comment about having played a literate character. The point, was that the ONLY thing that was especially exciting about being literate, once I was finally allowed to play someone literate, was being able to read locked up books. Most of my interaction with other PCs was done "live" or over the way, and so being literate had very little practical use. The actual practical use my PC got out of it was incredibly sparse and limited. I wrote up a proposal for my character's house for the Senate meeting.

That's not something anyone with a subguild would ever have any reason to do. It IS something that someone with a sponsored role or an "earned rank" role would have reason to do.

I never had to send scrolls to minions, because I only hired minions who were available when I was available. I never had to send scrolls to other Houses, because there were always people in other Houses available to pass verbal messages. Any time I needed (and still need) to send messages to a house where there aren't any available PCs when I'm playing, I send a message through the staff of the game. So - no need for literacy there either.

There is nothing about literacy that would ADD to the game, that would equal or exceed the mystery and excitement of its current rarity.

If you want to play a literate character, app for the noble role in Allanak that was just posted, or wait for another literate character roll call, or play a non-sponsored, clanned person who rises to the rank in which he/she would earn the right to learn it.

If you're not willing to do any of the AVAILABLE things to get this skill you want, what makes you think anyone would be willing to grant you that skill even if it was implemented on a more widespread level?

You might be right Lizzie, but you are talking about your own experiences with literacy, which means how you used it. I can't be sure you're right for all players, even if you are right for yourself. What I am reading you saying here is "Literacy won't add to the game because it didn't significantly add to mine."

[Patuk]

Could anyone point me to an actual example of literacy being banned in the real world, please? Your arguments about realism and whatnot confuse me. And I'm talking full-blown literacy here, not the possession of specific texts.

[Nyr]

I can't (and won't) move partial posts to the other thread.  If you want to discuss literacy, discuss it here.  If you want to discuss special applications, discuss it in the other thread.  If you want to flame/troll/bait/whatever, expect to get banned.

Thread moderated, go about your business.

[Reiloth]

Let's see...With my weak wiki-fu...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_during_the_Slave_Period

"The fears of slave insurrections and the spread of abolitionist materials and ideology led to radical restrictions on gatherings, travel, and—of course—literacy. The ignorance of the slaves was considered necessary to the security of the slaveholders (Albanese, 1976). Not only did owners fear the spread of specifically abolitionist materials, they did not want slaves to question their authority; thus, reading and reflection were to be prevented at any cost."

I think that about sums it up.

[Patuk]

Those are slaves we're talking. Though you could argue that Zalanthan commoners aren't better off, the Zalanthan lower classes aren't the minority population that slaves were. They outnumber the privileged class by a 100-to-1 ratio easily.

[Reiloth]

Yes, well, they are also ruled by magick-wielding servants of omnipotent Sorcerer Kings. I wouldn't say that Commoners of Allanak or Tuluk have any more rights than slaves of any era.

Step out of line as a slave in the USA -- Likely to get beaten, if not killed.

Step out of line as a 'Commoner' in Allanak / Tuluk - Likely to get beaten, if not killed. Actually more probable you get killed.

People know not to step out of line, in either case, because it's not a good idea. It doesn't matter that they 'outnumber the privileged class 100-to-1' because that privileged class can roast their ass with a fireball.

[Patuk]

They do. They have the right to say 'fuck it' and leave as they please, also known as the Kurac option.

[Reiloth]

The Kurac Option doesn't spare you from fireball roasts if you step out of line in the omnipotent Sorcerer City State. Actually it probably kicks you to the front of the line. And also I would say the 'Kurac Option' is somewhat unique. You don't see lines of people pouring out of Allanak to go to Luir's because 'my civil rights are being oppressed'. Most people are sheep, and they will cow to the authority presented to them.

PCs are Above Average "HEROS", much in the same way they are in games like Dungeons and Dragons. They are meant to be exceptional, and I would say that the Kurac Option makes sense for PCs, but not vNPCs or NPCs.

[Rahnevyn]

With regard to the "literacy will encourage the spread of secrets" concern - it's worth noting that plenty of literate characters have already attempted to pass down secrets in game, and the future generations of their House have generally been wise enough to not spread that "House knowledge" that gives them an advantage. It's just one more example of Zalanthans doing whatever they can to get ahead.

For another thing, there's nothing that says such writings will always be correct. Literacy could also be an effective tool to spread misinformation about topics in the right hands.

Books that somehow expose truly game-breaking secrets (of which in my estimation there aren't that many) can always be taken out of circulation by staff and put into a Red Robe's private library, or something. If your PC is in a position to learn a secret that sensitive, and is also literate, then they'd probably be aware of the dangers of writing such things down anyway.

I would like to note that literacy was talked about in the recent Player-Staff Meeting, where we said that projects to expand literacy are on hold pending a revamp of the code in the game, which has some issues. This is a good debate, but it may be a better one to have if/when that project is completed.

[flurry]

I still want a substantial change. I still dislike the current setup. I find it stifling and bland. I find it unrealistically restrictive. I don't think literacy is a big enough deal to be less available than magick. I think it should be a karma option to at least have a head start to a chance at reading. It's a change that I think would add a lot to the game.

One important distinction between magick and literacy is the background of the character. When applying for a magicker, you really don't need much explanation as to why the character has that capability. On the other hand, literacy doesn't just happen, so there has to be a background that supports it, with the appropriate language, etc.. That also probably means your background is linked to either a noble or merchant House. So it makes sense that an application for a literate character would need to be a special app.

I'm okay with expanding literacy somewhat beyond what it is now, as long the changes develop with a sensible IC explanation.

[James de Monet]

Harmless, I'm kinda confused about what you think people are going to be writing that will be so earth shatteringly awesome.  Can it be done? Sure! But...if you have an idea for something earth shatteringly awesome, you can probably accomplish it just as well without literacy*, using things like word of mouth, stories, songs, the way, rumors, scribble, monuments, and all the other ways that people communicate non-literally.

*I want to note that simply because you can accomplish something without literacy is not, in and of itself, a reason to do so; my point is more about the fact that not having literacy is not really placing a cap on the awesome. It's people struggling for ideas that places a cap on the awesome. This is true for both literate and non-literate plots.  Also, if you want literacy that badly, have you considered just asking for it? I think that is what Nyr is trying to intimate to you about spec apps. Spec apps are for asking for things you couldn't otherwise have. Like roles. Or skills. Or races. Or items. Or...you know....anything.  Then, there's the request tool...