The Clans and Economy Thread

[Nyr]

It seems like a localized partisanship-style thing would work better.  Though...only if needed or necessary.  So far, I haven't seen a decent argument for why it is needed or necessary.

On an unrelated note (and more related to the thread), clan pay and perks are things we've been looking at.  By the time we are done, in general, one should expect that nobles and noble houses get the most money, GMH next with militia coming in on the middle to lower end of that, T'zai Byn, then templars.

[HavokBlue]

I like that.

It was weird in the past to run into situations where certain noble houses had access to really very little money.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

The need as I see it would be filling hunter roles in GMH houses while avoiding a need for actually being clanned. Much like the merchants token in Allanak, the marking would be about being part of a collective that the GMHs would support with patronage, as well as being a breeding ground for GMHs to recruit from for the coveted roles of House Hunters.

Salarr wouldn't have to wait for thier best hunters to evolve the skills to do stuff, while Kadius could use the same hunters to get thier gems from the Deep Sea. It would be a loosely organized coalition that would known to work collectively for the GMHs, while not being mercenaries like the Byn.

[Nyr]

The need as I see it would be filling hunter roles in GMH houses while avoiding a need for actually being clanned.

Seems like a want, not a need.  A want to do stuff for GMHs without being in the clan.  Get over it, indies.  You suck.

[Fujikoma]

Hooray! More coins for clanned people. Or I hope it's more, he just said, they're looking at it... could be cuts.

And I agree with 7DV there... but my opinion means squat, so... plus, a coalition of hunters working for GMHs would hurt indie merchants something awful (even more than GMHs and such already do), so, maybe not so good for anyone non-GMH, or that wishes to use a non-GMH merchant, unless the coalition also took contracts from non-GMH sources, I don't know... complicated.

EDIT: Yeah, don't make a coalition, indie merchants would never again have materials for anything, except for the oddball weirdo hunters with beef with the hunter's union.

[Lizzie]

This is veering a little OT, but I'd really rather see staff-supported antagonists and player initiative than a bunch of effort devoted to what is basically a hunter and grebber's union. Aren't we supposed to be making life harder for indies, not adding to the easy street life? The money issue for indies isn't that big of an issue, because indies have a far higher cost output than clannies - but if they also had food/water/a place to stay that would just get ridiculous. Lower the cost of booze and toss clannies a few more bones and perks, sure.. but indies can suck it. You want perks, join a GMH, don't whine about how you should be getting perks for your grebbing.

I wasn't really even considering the convenience for the hunter/grebber player. I was thinking more of a convenience for the GMHs. So often, you'll see one of the two houses dominate the market of hunters/grebbers, while the other one has just one hunter, no crafters, and that hunter sits there frustrated because he can't go hunting alone and no one else in his clan is around. And then a month later, he dies off, so does half the OTHER GMH's crew, and they all switch places. In other words, one always has all the hunters, and the other always has people who are frustrated.

It'd be more convenient for BOTH sides, GMH and hunters, if there existed a pool the GMHs could draw from *IN ADDITION TO THEIR EXISTING EXPERIENCED AND POSSIBLY VERY LIMITED IN NUMBER CREW*.

Nyr, no there is no need or necessity for this. But as I said - there's no need or necessity for Armageddon either. This has nothing to with need or necessity. It's presented as a possible solution to what is an actual (and not merely perceived) issue.

The issue: It is common for players to congregate to one or another GMH, leaving the other in the dust. ICly, that makes no sense. Therefore, it would be useful (not needed or necessary, but useful) to have a solution that would allow both GMHs to have access to a cooperative of hunters who serve only them as a cooperative.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Yes, it's the issues that Liz brings to bear that fuel the interest, at least OOCly, for such a thing. Obviously, it would be ICly better to maintain a cadre of House-only Hunters, and I'm just fine with that - it's the flip-side of having a certain player population and only so many players to fill many roles that causes one to speculate about possible solutions. In this case, a Hunters' Coalition.

[a french mans shirt]

I do dislike the times when House Kadius appears to run the world and inevitably gains some political leverage just because they have twelve pcs and four leader/subleader ones... agreeing now with Hunter's Union.

[Dresan]

I don't know if i like the idea of a pool of hunters. The houses already buy raw good from independents. If independents want to work without belonging to the house, they can make their own group, rent a warehouse,  and sell the raw good to the houses.

Right now there is salarr north, and south, and then kadius north and south. These guys haven't really operated like the byn or even kurac. Within these two clans it feels like north and south are two separate entities. At any one time, one side or the other in either clan is suffering too. Again not only do they compete with each other for the same type of players but often there are other houses/clans looking for a hunter or two to work for them as well so they compete with them for players too.

With the war going on, with the pressure of neutrality from either city state, its almost a perfect time for a merger in order to bring resources together. 'Kadius Salarr' can be born. Sure they make deadly bows and swords, but they also make silk dresses and perfume. The hunters would be free-ranging bringing good, traveling as they see fit in order to bring what they can find or they can operate from one location as well.  Merchants, crafters, agents would be more localized to the area most of the time, sending out calls to the hunters from wherever they might be to bring them specific goods. Guards, aides or whatever else they feel like hiring would stay with them to do their thing.

The pros of this would be less competition for the same kind of player. More like minded players being lumped together increasing interaction, rp and plots. I feel like making it a larger more robust clan will make it easier to start more epic plots.  There is a war going on, their hunters and employees are the best source for information, spying, even assassination on the other sides especially since they can travel from one city state to another with greater easy then anyone else right now. There should be pressure, bribes, and backlashes from both city states not only on the over all clan but individuals themselves.


My idea is to increase interaction, rp and overall epic plots, not really sure if a pool of non-loyal group of semi affiliated hunters can really achieve the same thing.

[a french mans shirt]

The geek in me is screaming, "No, I'm going to kill you," but to be honest this is a good idea, which staff isn't going to do in favor of closing one of those two houses down.

I wonder if they will. I'm sort of guessing they won't until player spreadout is worse, but it honestly seems like its getting there lately.

The reason I say that is because the upper, never-player members of the GMH families would skip the preliminaries of trying to negotiate over who is going to screw who over worse and start killing each other the moment anyone even mentions this shit behind closed doors. It'd be pandemonium.

I like it. It should try to happen.

[Is Friday]

As a player who has played a few GMH leaders and leaders in general, pooled employees as a policy is probably the worst idea I've heard in a while. It'd just faction out and be the same as it is currently. Nothing would change. It doesn't fit the game world documentation.

There are organizations that take conscripts and in the case of the levies, well... that's different. Partisanship exists. That's similar. Making GMH a bunch of partisans is just silly. Most folks don't lifeswear anyway, so they're welcome to rotate through the different GMH houses as they please after 1-2 years of service.

I feel like this all stems from the "entitlement" of the little man. "I should get to have fun on my terms all the time". "I should get these perks because I'm awesome and shouldn't have to follow rules". Whelp, if that's you, then don't join a GMH. And if you don't join a GMH, don't be surprised if you get stomped for being successful and trying to compete with them. This is how monopolies work and it fits right within the game world.

[KankWhisperer]

I don't like the pool idea myself. You'd be basically giving those two clans even less to do. Having played a clan leader, sometimes it's nice to have some tasks to get done and fill in the gaps rather than having to invent plotz and rp for everyone. With the pool, why hire hunters? So everyone in the clan is just a vending machine now?

[Is Friday]

I'll also add that family leadership within the GMH, whether or not you realize it, is meant to be there for cultural representation. GMH family will build their crew and develop their minions into loyalists who "drink the kool-aid", for that fateful day when they must ask their minions to do something horrible in the name of the family business. GMH has a "culture" and that culture is: cutthroat business. You don't give the most important tasks to amos saltgrebber random indie hunter.

[Lizzie]

IsFriday, you are one of the people who should understand from the GMH's side of things what I'm talking about. I'll try to be clearer:

There are 10 PCs who are hunters, who have at least a passing interest in being hunters for either Kadius or Salarr. Might be new players, might be veteran players, might be a little of both.

The Salarr recruiting PC can only log in 4 hours per week. During peak time, but only 4 hours. The Kadian recruiting PC can log in 2 hours every single day, during peak time.

Salarr nabs eight of those hunters, three are new players.
Kadius gets two. One of them is a new player.

Kadius's new player doesn't understand the seriousness of "don't leave the gates without an officer in your first recruiting month of employment with the House" and promptly dies to a scrab in his fifth hour of play, leaving Kadius with one PC.

Salarr's new players have more of a chance to actually meet up with the other Salarris, so they'll only lose one of those new players, leaving the clan strong with 7 members - two of whom are new, but having plenty of interaction with the other clanned players.

Kadius's hunting crew flounders - since there's only one of them, and the recruiting PC isn't around for another 3 RL days.
Salarr's unit is thriving - except the warehouse can't store any more hides and their crafters can't keep up with the massive amount of supply coming in. So the hunters are ordered to stop hunting. There just isn't any room for anything in the compound anymore, codedly.

Kadius needs fresh meat but can't get any, because Salarr already has it, and the one who just died is now playing a warrior in the Legion, and the other dead recruit in Salarr is now a half-elven rinthi assassin/thug.

If there was a pool -

The recruiting PC from Kadius could go to the pool, announce that he needs two hunters to help his employee collect 2 duskhorn horns, a dozen amethysts, and a pouch of various herbs in the next half-month. The three make arrangements and head out. If one's lost, there's a replacement standing by in the pool.

Meanwhile, Salarr has the recruiting PC, one lifesworn Second Hunter, and two full hunters. They don't need eight hunters, because - there's a pool. Those four can handle most of the stuff needing to get done, and any time they need more bulk they can draw from the pool. And when the bulk-work is over, they revert back to the four. Less salary paid out, less food and water to supply to the employees, more stuff for fewer people to do, giving them more of a chance to make an impact than when the playerbase of that one clan was so diluted with people who really weren't needed.

This is how I see the pool. Not as a convenience for independents to not be clanned and still be in a clan. But rather for GMHs to not have to deal with the all-or-nothing OOC-created mess that they often have to deal with ICly.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Yeah. I like what Lizzie is saying. However in the game world, a merger would obviously make more sense. There's both good and bad to both ideas and I'm not necessarily supporting either idea. I'm just rambling.

[Lizzie]

Yeah. I like what Lizzie is saying. However in the game world, a merger would obviously make more sense. There's both good and bad to both ideas and I'm not necessarily supporting either idea. I'm just rambling.

Oh I'm totally up for a merger, but I'm looking more at the "this is the kind of stuff the players have already been doing, we could just make it more staff-supported" aspect. Players have been, and are, already forming "collectives" from which the two main GMHs draw some of the raw materials. They -should- be getting them exclusively from their hunters, but they don't always have hunters available. That is WHY the collective makes sense. The two reasons: 1) They already exist unofficially and 2) GMHs should never have to draw from non-GMH-sanctioned people for most raw materials.

[Barzalene]

I think part of the fun for pc leaders is figuring out who they will and will not do business with and why. In my opinion, who is and is not a sanctioned resource is not really something to be decided on the boards.

[Lizzie]

I think part of the fun for pc leaders is figuring out who they will and will not do business with and why. In my opinion, who is and is not a sanctioned resource is not really something to be decided on the boards.

Erm, a GMH PC leader having to get a non-GMH employee to chop logs for him because he is out of PC hunters and the VNPC hunters can't bring in coded logs, is not something that should be happening IC. It's not an IC issue. It's an OOC issue, that is causing IC problems. That's why some of us are considering solutions on the board.

[Is Friday]

I never saw any particular Corporal or Sergeant Hunter crew leader in GMH to represent the whole org. They are just a team amongst many that exist virtually. I don't see it as a problem except an IC one to recruit more hunters, because it's that leader's team that is failing, not the GMH as a whole.

[RogueGunslinger]

I agree with IsFriday that this seems like one of those issues that can be worked around entirely IC. Poach hunters from other companies with threats or bribes. Delegate other people to do the interviewing/searching if you have trouble logging in the time you need to find proper employees. If there's someone independent that's able to go get you logs, force him into your service by kidnapping their mate.

How is this problem any different from any other playtimes/lack of players issues? I like the idea of merges, consolidation, but not focused so specifically on hunters. That seems more like trying to alleviate the symptoms than cure the disease.

[HavokBlue]

This is a relative non-problem based on my experience.

[Dresan]

Well it would be a merger of the entire two organizations. It wouldn't be closing the clan so much as bringing its crafters, hunters and sponsored roles under one estate instead of two. You could still have crafters that specialize in making clothing while, some making weapons. I suspect merchants would now have access to selling both weapons and luxury goods. Everything kadus does would still happen, and everything salarr does would still happen, it would just be happening in one estate.

Some compromises would have to be found, probably ICly but still they are similar enough that they would merge without much hassle. There wouldn't even be much coding to do, ICly one estate is where all the important people would go stay (virtual people), and the other estate (the better/bigger estate in each citystate) would be used for the low level merchants, crafters agents as training facility(PC). Again the only difference would be everyone is under the same roof, and merchants would be selling both inventories from both kadius and salarr instead of just one.

In my ideas the amount of sponsored roles and merchants stay the same as if there were two clans. Just they are given more variety to sell, sponsored roles would probably find a larger amount of people wanting to join. My only fear would be that by consolidating the two clans, staff would also reduce the amount of sponsored roles and the number of people available to sell to the numbers of one clan. This is a merger so I would love to see the number of sponsored roles and leadership around reflect the two large organization coming together.

If this had happened in the past, every cool plot that occurred to kadius or salarr would have been affecting all the players that enjoy the same type of roles they offer these two clans offer. In terms of plot, I just feel you can't focus on one house's group of hunters without making the other group of hunters in another house feel left out, the same with politics. As I've said, i know they have different themes but they are still similar enough in the type of players/roles they attract that if these two houses merge the plots from both staff and players would just skyrocket.

[Molten Heart]

Ten years or so back a certain Kuraci leader (maybe a visonary, maybe a con man, maybe both) tried to bring the merchant houses together to form an alliance.  IIRC When they got together to discuss the idea, someone tried to kill someone else for some stupid personal reason and the whole thing fell apart.  Sometimes putting aside personal issues can be hard.

[Dresan]

One of the reasons I would not suggest something such as kurac merging with salarr or kadius is because if you look at kurac its in an extreme unique position. If we look at the militia, the byn, and kurac...all these three clans attract soldier type roles. However in each of these clans, structure,location, travel, benefits and more importantly the plots affecting these clans are so completely unique to them that players going into them are seeking unique roles/experiences despite playing soldiers.

I've always felt that the same plot/events that occur in salarr could easily affect kadius too, and vise versa. I cannot say the same thing about kurac and anyone else. Even if there were 12 hunters in both clans, I'd still argue for a merger because at their core they basically do the same thing, hire hunters, hire crafters, hire merchants, make stuff and sell it to both city states. So why not double up the fun, with both people and plots with a merger?

So at this point someone might be asking themselves, if this is the case, why not change up the two clans so they are as unique to each other as kurac is to every other clan. Well my only argument to that would be that these two clans current work. They work really well and they are fun when they have people in them.   The way they operate also makes a lot of sense in the IC world and I think coming together would make them a much more awesome clan which would preserve their history, themes and structures then changing either one at this point which would alienate the people that have come to enjoy them over the years.

Well...I've certainly derailed this thread enough. Sorry about that

[Nyr]

There's not any IC reason for a merger.  The only thing brought up is that at times, one of two GMH clans may have more people than the other.  That's hardly a reason to suggest a merger.  That's also not a good reason for this pool.

Pool:  aims to fix a problem that largely doesn't exist, and when it does, it is the result of IC action and can be fixed by IC action (poach/kill/aggressive recruiting/ignoring), and could probably be eased by a few minor tweaks to documentation for the lower ends of those two clans.

merger:  aims to fix a problem that (again) largely doesn't exist...with a solution that flies in the face of the IC world, because "merger"

For that matter, there remains a static need for Salarr and Kadian goods at the top that can (or will) be filled regardless of the amount of PCs in the lower reaches of the clans, given the existence of item order requests that merchant PCs in those clans file.  In large part I think there may be an expectation in some quarters (I've thought this before, too) that every clan should have a ton of players in it.  In reality, only a few clans can actively support a certain range of player numbers because there's simply not enough for them to do.