The Clans and Economy Thread

[Dresan]

I do think I see your point, D-man. It makes sense and besides I did say other people probably have a better grasp about the byn than me. However, I just got to say, for some reason your example makes me like my idea more, not less.   Though you know, maybe its just the blood lust talking though.

I don't think kadius and salarr are that bad off. They are really two of my favorite clans to join. You join a clan but you are still given such vast amounts of freedom. It almost feels like you are still an independent in some ways but with clan backings should you need it.

This is a bit of a derail but I think the only problem with kadius and salarr is they both compete for the same type of player. They are looking for hunters, crafters , some guards etc etc. I know they both have their own theme and history, and they are often doing their own thing but if kadius and salarr merged for example, you would probably have people competing for the positions it offers. Then again the benefit of having both is being able to alternate between these two clans and enjoy them more frequently especially if your character are prone to dying.

[Is Friday]

I'm not saying "nerf indies", but I think applying bigger consequences to Indies getting rich would solve a lot of problems. The only reason why clanned hunters seem poor is because some Indies get disproportionately rich. As it stands now, I can spend newbie coin to join the Byn,  train a bit, go solo hunt til I make other Rage Against the GMH friends, and then make a killing without trying.

Indies just getting by is just fine imo. Indies accumulating wealth and scoffing at GMH power is not, and can/should be dealt with by those GMH players. I know I do my part.

Suck it, indies.

[Barzalene]

I would not mind if they merged. Especially if the sorry line was cool and there was an effort to hold on to some history.

[i like me some ham]

Clan invisible variability scares me, is why clans usually don't hold much appeal for me. Once upon a time, I could join Kadius as a crafter, spend whatever time I wanted crafting or goofing off so long as I had something decent to show for it in my chest at the end of the month, and it doesn't take that long really, unless you're looking to impress. A RL year later, I join in the same exact role and I get a Byn schedule, but fro crafting. *shudder.* Another time, when I joined a clan, they shipped me off to the Byn for a game year and I had absolutely no choice in the matter if I wanted to stay on. As a crafter. My patience is not so zen and I eventually didn't make it.

I don't mind that different clan leaders have different ways of going about things but when I can't see it until after I sign my soul off to the devil that kind of turns me away. Also, I'm a picky bitch who doesn't want much, but if I see a 100 sid whateverthing in the store and I NEED IT NOW but I can't afford it until payday, you know. And it would seem sensible OOCly to get an indie to buy it for me and I'd pay them off later.

I think indies are fine if you're not going to change the costs of byn fees, silt skimmers, etc Just maybe have it set so, depending on the local political climate, Kaidus people get a 20% discount at Salaar, 90% at Kadius, keep coded tuns full of booze in the in the compounds so they can go drink whenever they want and start getting drinking problems, I know the water barrel in the Byn is impossibly full at all times, you can bring this to the merchant houses in the form of booze. Decent stuff, too, wave it over the pittance of shit ale that dung sweeper can afford. Might not fix the disparity 100% but it'll get people to shut up for about a year.

[HavokBlue]

If you are playing in a GMH, staff will probably cheer you on if you want to make indies miserable.

[Lizzie]

I like that Salarr, Kadius, and Kurac are all separate entities. I think the "hunter issues" that crop up often enough that they're issues, and not just perceived issues.

Possible solution - make a "pool" of hunters and low-rank crafters that the Salarr and Kadius both draw from. It would give them something to compete over. It'd be a clan of its own, tied directly and exclusively to the GMHs as a whole. You would work for "The GMHs" and not for "Salarr" or "Kadius." Perhaps a third party would oversee this clan, or perhaps it would be jointly operated by both. It would also allow Kurac to make use of hunters who aren't their military units, without having to hire them outright.

This way, if Salarr and Kadius both need hunters one month, the hunters would all work together to get whatever is needed for both. If Salarr doesn't need anything one month, no reason for the hunters to sit on their asses being bored - because they can still do some stuff for Kadius without being "traitors" to anyone.

There could be a northern and southern branch of the pool, exclusive to those areas, OR there could be one branch that travels as needed to fill out the existing Salarr or Kadian hunters who don't join the pool.

[Barzalene]

I like that Salarr, Kadius, and Kurac are all separate entities. I think the "hunter issues" that crop up often enough that they're issues, and not just perceived issues.

Possible solution - make a "pool" of hunters and low-rank crafters that the Salarr and Kadius both draw from. It would give them something to compete over. It'd be a clan of its own, tied directly and exclusively to the GMHs as a whole. You would work for "The GMHs" and not for "Salarr" or "Kadius." Perhaps a third party would oversee this clan, or perhaps it would be jointly operated by both. It would also allow Kurac to make use of hunters who aren't their military units, without having to hire them outright.

This way, if Salarr and Kadius both need hunters one month, the hunters would all work together to get whatever is needed for both. If Salarr doesn't need anything one month, no reason for the hunters to sit on their asses being bored - because they can still do some stuff for Kadius without being "traitors" to anyone.

There could be a northern and southern branch of the pool, exclusive to those areas, OR there could be one branch that travels as needed to fill out the existing Salarr or Kadian hunters who don't join the pool.

I hate the pool idea. When you hire an employee you're looking for  loyalty. There's no loyalty in a pool. People join clans for plots. You can't give them plots til there's trust.

[James de Monet]

The Black Scrabs kinda filled that pool role when they were active. They called themselves mercenaries, but they were primarily grebbers and hunters for hire. I took a couple of contracts from Salarr and others while playing with them that amounted to X amount of material Y.

It didn't matter that they weren't loyal to a house, their plots came from being what they were, the same as the Byn's do.  Other grebbers didn't like them. Red Fangs didn't like them. It worked pretty well, actually.

[Lizzie]

You're missing the point Barsook. Some people don't WANT to be members of Salarr, just to fulfill their adventure desires, but they DO want to be part of a group, based out of a city. They want to be hunters, they're not necessarily interested in getting involved in city-based plots, or GMH-based drama and all the baggage that goes with it. Salarr wouldn't want to hire them as employees with access to their estate. But those hunters would be loyal to the pool. The pool that exists to serve the two main "hunter-based" GMHs: Salarr and Kadius. They don't compete all that much in the first place, so there's no real worry about "disloyalty" anyway, with regards to hunters who are only hired to be hunters. The only time there -can- be "disloyalty" is if you make those hunters exclusive to one house or the other.

And that's where you have the exclusive hunters who actually WANT the drama and politics and prestige. In fact, newer hunters who want to become Salarri hunters, could be required to start out in the pool and earn their place in the House. The same with new crafters. Let them learn how to BE crafters - codedly and RP-wise, and THEN they can vie for a spot in one of the GMHs. Until that point, they could be members of the pool, who don't have access to the clan-specific crafts, and therefore have nothing to be "disloyal" for.

If Salarr's hurting for low-level grebbers, and don't really need experienced hunters right now, why should they put their Senior Officers out foraging for twigs? Why should they hire someone who WANTS to be a Senior Officer, when all Salarr needs is someone who's available this week, and has the House's sanction, to do some grebbing for them? And then the next week they could help get whatever herbs Kadius needs to make dyes for their master crafters. And then maybe the week after they can help fill out the order for a dozen tanned carru hides, helping to hunt, skin, and tan, for those 2 available Salarris. Why should Salarr have to wait 6 RL days for the four full unit's worth of employees to happen to all log on at the same time, when they can draw from a pool of 10 eager beavers just itching to get out and do something productive - but don't want to be members of their house?

They don't HAVE to be loyal, because they're not employees of the individual House. They're employees of the collective hunters' pool which is funded by the GMHs as a whole, which means those employees can't be conscripted, they can't become nobles' aides, they can't join the Byn - until they leave that pool officially.

It gives "indies who don't really want to be indies but don't want to join a GMH" a place to be, something to do, and a group to belong to.

[Lizzie]

The Black Scrabs kinda filled that pool role when they were active. They called themselves mercenaries, but they were primarily grebbers and hunters for hire. I took a couple of contracts from Salarr and others while playing with them that amounted to X amount of material Y.

It didn't matter that they weren't loyal to a house, their plots came from being what they were, the same as the Byn's do.  Other grebbers didn't like them. Red Fangs didn't like them. It worked pretty well, actually.

And yes I think a lot of the "independent crews" that form so often, are trying to be one of two things: The next GMH, or some kind of pool from which the GMHs draw from. That's part of what inspired my idea.

[Maker]

Essentially, sounds like a push for a hunter's guild.  Not sure if that or a union would be the better analogy.

[Nyr]

Possible solution - make a "pool" of hunters and low-rank crafters that the Salarr and Kadius both draw from. It would give them something to compete over. It'd be a clan of its own, tied directly and exclusively to the GMHs as a whole. You would work for "The GMHs" and not for "Salarr" or "Kadius." Perhaps a third party would oversee this clan, or perhaps it would be jointly operated by both. It would also allow Kurac to make use of hunters who aren't their military units, without having to hire them outright.

Wouldn't a simpler and less contrived solution be for any group that needs unskilled, not necessarily loyal labor for some task...to simply ask for it, provided it is acceptable in their documentation?

[Fujikoma]

Possible solution - make a "pool" of hunters and low-rank crafters that the Salarr and Kadius both draw from. It would give them something to compete over. It'd be a clan of its own, tied directly and exclusively to the GMHs as a whole. You would work for "The GMHs" and not for "Salarr" or "Kadius." Perhaps a third party would oversee this clan, or perhaps it would be jointly operated by both. It would also allow Kurac to make use of hunters who aren't their military units, without having to hire them outright.

Wouldn't a simpler and less contrived solution be for any group that needs unskilled, not necessarily loyal labor for some task...to simply ask for it, provided it is acceptable in their documentation?

"Sorry, but my House provides all I have need of." *snubs you to either stare at a wall or makes small-talk, never mentions, oh, I don't think we need those, but you should speak with my supervisor*

"We need large chunks of obsidian, we'll pay handsomely for them!" *so exciting!*
After much exhausting labor, terror, and heartache, grebber McGee drags his near bloody stump of a leg down the road, leaving an easily followed trail of blood, huge bag of obsidian chunks tinkling loudly with each tug. He weeps, and although covered in what look like tarantula and raptor fang marks, the way he keeps stopping and almost collapsing every time he looks at a ring on one of his still-attached fingers gives a clue the physical wounds are the least of his worry. He drags himself to the compound, a withered, bloody, simpering husk barely clinging to life, and finds the agent's mind, his commitment to the task at hand perhaps the only thing staying the icy hand of Drov.
"You have large chunks of obsidian? Great. We'll pay fifteen obsidian pieces per chunk. Well, no, we don't pay much because they take up a lot of space and aren't really used for much. Well if you want that much, why didn't you just go to the office of the mines in the first place? I'm sorry to hear of your loss, but quite frankly, I don't give a squat."
"If yer so poor ye gotta haggle like that, well uh, just take the shit free." and thus ends the tragic tale of grebber McGee, as he slowly drags himself to a nice, quiet spot to bleed to death.

Sorry about the dramatic tale there, I made all that up, but I've encountered both vague scenarios. Neither is good for business between unskilled labor and the GMHs. I'm sure there's more, and there's a few things I'd mention loosely related, but it would be too much IC info, so nope.

[Nyr]

Possible solution - make a "pool" of hunters and low-rank crafters that the Salarr and Kadius both draw from. It would give them something to compete over. It'd be a clan of its own, tied directly and exclusively to the GMHs as a whole. You would work for "The GMHs" and not for "Salarr" or "Kadius." Perhaps a third party would oversee this clan, or perhaps it would be jointly operated by both. It would also allow Kurac to make use of hunters who aren't their military units, without having to hire them outright.

Wouldn't a simpler and less contrived solution be for any group that needs unskilled, not necessarily loyal labor for some task...to simply ask for it, provided it is acceptable in their documentation?

"Sorry, but my House provides all I have need of." *snubs you to either stare at a wall or makes small-talk, never mentions, oh, I don't think we need those, but you should speak with my supervisor*

In this case, the group obviously does not need unskilled/not necessarily loyal labor, and therefore this situation doesn't apply (after all, you are asking them, not the other way around).

"We need large chunks of obsidian, we'll pay handsomely for them!" *so exciting!*
After much exhausting labor, terror, and heartache, grebber McGee drags his near bloody stump of a leg down the road, leaving an easily followed trail of blood, huge bag of obsidian chunks tinkling loudly with each tug. He weeps, and although covered in what look like tarantula and raptor fang marks, the way he keeps stopping and almost collapsing every time he looks at a ring on one of his still-attached fingers gives a clue the physical wounds are the least of his worry. He drags himself to the compound, a withered, bloody, simpering husk barely clinging to life, and finds the agent's mind, his commitment to the task at hand perhaps the only thing staying the icy hand of Drov.
"You have large chunks of obsidian? Great. We'll pay fifteen obsidian pieces per chunk. Well, no, we don't pay much because they take up a lot of space and aren't really used for much. Well if you want that much, why didn't you just go to the office of the mines in the first place? I'm sorry to hear of your loss, but quite frankly, I don't give a squat."
"If yer so poor ye gotta haggle like that, well uh, just take the shit free." and thus ends the tragic tale of grebber McGee, as he slowly drags himself to a nice, quiet spot to bleed to death.

So the group does need unskilled/not necessarily loyal labor, is able to ask for it according to their documentation or the allowance of staff for the group, and is also willing to (on an individual basis) be a dick to said indie that doesn't want to commit to being part of the group, an indie that also has no backing anywhere else to keep him or her from getting screwed over...an indie that is unwilling to engage in haggling with someone that clearly holds the superior position.

Sounds like Armageddon to me.  You aren't going to be able to dictate terms too well as an independent like that latter scenario.  That grebber seems a bit like a dumbass anyway, seeing as how he'd give up a chance at getting paid even a paltry amount for his labor and wouldn't haggle with the guy, and the Agent seems like a run-of-the-mill GMH bastard that just got free obsidian from someone they didn't even have on the roster.

To pick on another example provided above about a hypothetical player:

They want to play a character that isn't involved IN a merchant house, but gets to also do merchant house type stuff as an indie, being involved with those merchant houses.
They want to be a hunter, but they don't want to get involved in the city-based plots or GMH-based drama.
They want to be indies but also not really be indies and not join a GMH.

So they want to play a unicorn.  

I'm usually one to say "play what you want to play, where you want to play it, provided it fits the game/documentation," but when what they want to play is such a specific type of role, I have to question whether they could just deal with what is actually available.  They don't like GMH drama (whatever that is)?  Don't play in the GMH instead of expecting it to change to suit what you want.  They want to be a hunter and don't want to get involved in city-based plots or GMH-based drama? I guess play a solo hunter role outside of Red Storm, no one will bother you.  They want to be an indie?  Be an indie.  They want to not be an indie?  There are several options (see:  clanned roles).  You want to do both, there are still maybe a couple of options (see:  partisanship, or just plain out bugging x or y leader to let you do whatever without being on the explicit above the board payroll).

They don't like those options, and they are an actual player and not a hypothetical player, well, then there's something else going on here...and maybe that should be discussed instead.

[Harmless]

The benefits of joining a clan are the roleplaying and plot perks, the guarded storage, the promise of future promotions, and a little extra coin as a bonus. Altogether a great package, the pay is fine as is.

[Fujikoma]

Yep, I see your point. Can't argue with any of that, myself. Guess I have to admit part of the attraction to such roles is the need to be able to adapt to ever-present dangers and attempt to thwart them at any cost, up to and including, heaven forbid, actually accepting that, hey, this over here is something I -can't- do, but if I compromise on this, despite my compulsion otherwise, I might get away with it. Sometimes you get screwed, just how it is. Sometimes you screw someone else and get away with it, sometimes you don't. A cautious approach respectful of the degree of potential danger can go a long way toward getting away with it. Too much coffee, imma shaddup now.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I've been thinking about it. I like the idea of GMHs only hiring skilled hunters, but generally doing business with a Hunter's Byn. It would pool hunters, allow them to be independant but also together, and give them a resume if they decided that they wanted those life-term benefits such as contant pay, deep discounts or free merchandise, and status, each GMH might provide. It resembles what seems to be happening in the North with the Noble Houses, where they have moved to a patron systems.

I don't know. I like the idea, but at the same time, I like the idea of the loyal might each GMH employs, too. I might need to think on it longer.

[QuillDipper]

Pool hunters sounds kind of cool. GMHs could release broad contracts for specific huntables and such, give it an element of competition with the other 'indies'.

I'd say theres a place for lifesworn and loyal hunters, though. It'd make sense if clan pay for loyal hunters got a decent boost, while these indepenedant pooled ones got paid a heavy portion less. The clanned ones would need a constant source of income (no by-the-need hunting like the indies would have, just general bounties for items and coded pay), and they'd keep all the benefits you'd expect of a clan.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Yeh, I need to think about it, but I kind of think the idea has merit. It's how it is implemented and how it interacts with the world at large that needs to be smoothed out. You don't want the hunters having a compound and such, for instance ... then it's like the Byn, and 'leaders' feel the need to put restrictions on you and such ... killing the idea of being an independant in a coalition, not a company, of hunters.

[QuillDipper]

You couldn't stuff them in a compound, I think. The idea behind it is they're flat on their ass alone. It should technically be like the Tribal Levies - You're vaguely part of this larger organization as a reserve. You lack the benefits of being a full member but you still retain your independence and ability to do whatever the hell you want.

[a french mans shirt]

The levies are awesome. I secretly badly wish the south would make one, and also boast a few game years in that the north copied their awesome idea.

Idea: big fucking chests filled with shit for clannies that have graduated their recruit year and are staying in, with stuff that they may WEAR and USE, not sell or give away. Once they are done wearing them, they have to put it back.

Be a little weird if all three merchant houses did this but I could say one or two clan leaders doing this every so often. Perks, perks, perks. Shiny, silky, pretty, kryl armor badass. Indies should be fucking jealous.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

It could be a token, or a tattoo, that all of the Hunters in the coalition wore - the hunter pays a fee to belong to that coalition, basically entitling you to do work for the GMHs. Hunters who weren't in that coalition would have to do work with either GMH agents who didn't care, or other indies. A member of that coalition could invite someone else also in the coalition to hunt with them, and get a split of the proceeds, or hunt with a indie, who would just be along for the ride. Basically all the tat or token would give you is standing in the coalition, and you would have to build your own rep.

GMHs would stop hiring newb hunters, and point them at the coalition, but would still be open to hiring hunters that impressed them enough. Perks for being an actual clanned GMH hunter would be the free or reduced price goods you were able to recieve, steady pay, food and water, storage, and the House plots, etc.

[Delirium]

This all sounds kind of complicated and unnecessary?

[Lizzie]

1. Armageddon is complicated and unneccessary. The point is moot.

2. The notion of a hunter's pool is along the same lines as the levies. The levy members are obligated to serve the North if/when the time comes, but otherwise they're free to come and go, do their thing, make money or not, work together, etc. etc. A hunter's pool would be obligated to serve Salarr and/or Kadius if/when the time comes, but otherwise they're free to come and go, do their thing, make money or not, etc. etc. While they are members of the pool, they *cannot* also be members of Salarr or Kadius. If they want to be members of Salarr or Kadius, they'd still have to request entry, be accepted, and then they're no longer members of the pool - they're employees of a GMH.

They wouldn't need a clan compound, or food/water, etc. However, maybe they might have reduced costs for food/water at specific shops in the specific cities. They'd still need to make use of their haggle skill, if they have it, to *sell* anything at a better price, or buy anything other than that specific place's food/water at a better price. Perhaps also pool members would be entitled to reduced prices on low-end gear from Salarr, and low-end accessories from Kadius (think empty bags, cure tablets, mul mix, packs and satchels of various non-silk types, sandcloth clothing, etc.) The GMH PC traders/merchants would offer pool members those discounts, and of course they could offer additional discounts for "jobs well done" as they see fit.

They'd get paid a stipend (we're talking something like 100 sids per RL week) to cover stable fees and waterskin refills, and there could be a pay scale for actual work performed (maybe a minimum of 50 sids per job, maximum of 500 sids per job). Since they're not employees and only members of a pool, anything they bring in that the task doesn't require, is for the pool member to keep, use, give, trade, or sell as they please.

And again - if they choose to eventually become an employee of the GMH, they'd go through the same process they go through now. EXCEPT - they would have already proven themselves useful and worthy, because they'd already been in the pool.

[Delirium]

This is veering a little OT, but I'd really rather see staff-supported antagonists and player initiative than a bunch of effort devoted to what is basically a hunter and grebber's union. Aren't we supposed to be making life harder for indies, not adding to the easy street life? The money issue for indies isn't that big of an issue, because indies have a far higher cost output than clannies - but if they also had food/water/a place to stay that would just get ridiculous. Lower the cost of booze and toss clannies a few more bones and perks, sure.. but indies can suck it. You want perks, join a GMH, don't whine about how you should be getting perks for your grebbing.