The Clans and Economy Thread

[BadSkeelz]

Given some of the "ideas" in this thread, I think we're a resource best left untapped.

[Rahnevyn]

Be nice.

[Barsook]

Time is always an issue in every community.

[Molten Heart]

Given some of the "ideas" in this thread, I think we're a resource best left untapped.

I think many of the ideas in this thread have great potential.

[Barsook]

Given some of the "ideas" in this thread, I think we're a resource best left untapped.

I think many of the ideas in this thread have great potential.

+1

We just need lab rats to test on.  

[X-D]

LOL...Ideas are not exactly the point.

Staff can have the ideas, just tap some of the good writers in the player base to do the grunt work on the docs...here Is what we want...make it happen!

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Absolutely in agreement with X here. In the past, there were a number of calls for material for 2.0. Being that 2.0 was a fairly maligned project, and that you still were able to reap copious amounts of material from the PB, I think it's fair to say that we are very eager to donate time and imagination to helping flesh out many aspects of the world.

[Patuk]

Not having been around at the right time, I'm curious to know what the problem with elite units used to be.

[KankWhisperer]

It is a little discouraging wondering if your clan docs will ever get their turn. I thought my clan was possibly getting docs looked at late 2012 and nothing yet. Of course I really hate trying to sift through various clan forum posts but some people seem alright with it.

[Delirium]

Absolutely in agreement with X here. In the past, there were a number of calls for material for 2.0. Being that 2.0 was a fairly maligned project, and that you still were able to reap copious amounts of material from the PB, I think it's fair to say that we are very eager to donate time and imagination to helping flesh out many aspects of the world.

Agreed.

Not to mention that (no offense, but it's true) some of us players have been playing this game for longer - and thus have more extensive memories and knowledge of past documentation - than current staff.

For example, the documentation and standards for the Tuluki templarate have gone through an insane amount of permutations (and occasional retcons, evidently) since I played a Lirathan back in the early 2000's. Knowing how things were and knowing how things are today are two different things, but can definitely help when trying to write up documentation that makes sense and fits in with the lineage and history of the gameworld.

[X-D]

Actually, Nyr stated what some of the problems were.

Elite units...Now it will seem I am picking on Kurac here, but I am not, they were simply one of the last to have such.

Anyway...First off, in the beginning, it was something you had to earn, and it was tough to get in...there were few outriders and they were part of the clan.

Towards the end, there were people recruited directly to the outriders, it got to a point where almost all the clan was outriders and really, they did whatever they wanted, basically separate from the clan. Also, the clan rankings were muddled when it came to outriders verses any other clan member.


Other clans had the same problems or different ones as well. Of course I feel almost, if not all these problems were rooted in docs that were not totally clear on these subjects. Elite units are something I think should have documentation that, if not set in stone...be damm close too it.

Leave the grey areas to the lesser units...This is why I already stated that any elite unit or unit member should held to higher standards then normal.

In fact, I would go so far as to say that should a PC clan leader think your PC could become part of an elite unit that it should then become a sponsored role...IE, PC leader needs run it past staff and get approved and the Player of the prospective elite be given the docs by staff and such rules as be needed by a sponsored role.

(edit, disclaimer) I use outriders as example though such problems may or may not have happened in that clan, but  it was simpler to simply group everything together for example.

[Delirium]

Actually, Nyr stated what some of the problems were.

Elite units...Now it will seem I am picking on Kurac here, but I am not, they were simply one of the last to have such.

Anyway...First off, in the beginning, it was something you had to earn, and it was tough to get in...there were few outriders and they were part of the clan.

Towards the end, there were people recruited directly to the outriders, it got to a point where almost all the clan was outriders and really, they did whatever they wanted, basically separate from the clan. Also, the clan rankings were muddled when it came to outriders verses any other clan member.


Other clans had the same problems or different ones as well. Of course I feel almost, if not all these problems were rooted in docs that were not totally clear on these subjects. Elite units are something I think should have documentation that, if not set in stone...be damm close too it.

Leave the grey areas to the lesser units...This is why I already stated that any elite unit or unit member should held to higher standards then normal.

Yeah, if outriders were recruited directly into, that's a problem. I remember Shatuka trying insanely hard to get into the Outriders, and trying to train up the person who would be her partner, only to have them keep dying on her, and so she was still wearing a Sergeant's patch by the day she died. And I liked that. It gave me something to continue striving for, instead of going "well gee, wearing a patch now, end of the road"!

[Patuk]

I.. See, and I can see why it would be a problem if, say, you had 5 Ivory Guard pc's and only 2 normal soldiers, or if a Corporal let into the Ivory Guard would decide to skip all duties, only listen to his templars, and completely dissociate himself from their clan, but surely these things can be fixed by quotas and better documented hierarchies? Or are there more issues, ones I'm not aware of.

[X-D]

Well, Patuk...some of what I said might not have been an outrider issue, but was surely issue at some point in some elite...still, what I posted essentially covers all the major problems...

Some clans  had elite units but since they are little known I will not mention them. As to the well known ones, IE, Kadius, Salarr, Kurac and Legion..

I do not see any reason why Ivory guard could not come back basically unchanged, I thought the docs on such quite clear cut. Outriders would need some cleaning and expanding, Kadius  and salarr need complete rework.

[Barzalene]

Elite should have prestige, it should have some tangible reward - it should not take you out of the workings of clan life. If less interaction results, it's broken.

[Nyr]

Yep.  Surely these things can be fixed by x and y. Basically, just x, then y, where everything after the word "just" is actually quite a bit more work and brainstorming than you might think.

Here's the problem.  It requires more than people willing to write (players and staff) or people willing and authorized to write it (staff).  I assume you aren't just saying that the bottleneck we have here is splattering some words down on a piece of internet paper and calling it done.  The actual work of writing the documentation isn't that big of a deal.  The decisions that go into the rough draft, the places to make the hard calls...that's a big deal, and it's tough, and that is where most of the work is involved.  Sometimes an idea might sit there for a few days or weeks before getting another hack at it because it needs to be mulled over.  It's better to have an idea that had a lot more thought in it than a quick fix that just touches on the problem itself and none of the things linking to it.

The Ivory Guard was never an actual part of the clan, either.  Just a thing you called someone, and they wore stuff.   It wasn't part of the coded clan structure--it was more like a lateral promotion position (nothing wrong with that, intrinsically) and the documentation for that subsection is also quite dated given recent changes.  Luckily, given the recent changes in the clan and the city, it's actually not that difficult to add that in and improve it by doing so if we were ever to do that...which was sort of the point of the changes there anyway.

[Fujikoma]

I see, yeah, statement misworded, misinterpreted could cause a good deal of confusion and conflict. Sounds difficult, glad I get to just play the damn game as opposed to having to pour over such things. Huh, hadn't even thought about that until now, suppose I should have.

[Delirium]

It would still be nice if, when sweeping changes are made to the game and documentation, players could genuinely contribute to the discussion.

I'm not even remotely the most veteran of vets that we've got here, and there are still issues I've noticed with retcons and doc changes, especially that are either made silently (confusing players who have experienced things differently in the past, and perhaps fucking over their PCs) or that are flat-out surgical removals of long-standing icons of the gameworld (hi, Firestorm).

While staff is updating these clan documentations, I hope that there is conversation going on between the players involved and the staff involved, and maybe even conversation with players who have been heavily involved in that clan in the past. Because they have actual perspective on what it's like to play in the clan. Instead of deciding "this is how it should be" and relentlessly forcing the documentation in that direction, maybe we could stand to use a more organic approach that genuinely involves players as well as staff. You (general you) have the benefit of birds-eye view, but what you often lack is the perspective of what it's like down in the sandbox. Sometimes the things that staff might think is fun to play ends up being very limiting, confusing, and/or unfun in actual reality, despite players giving it their best shot. And vice versa.

So no, polling players for documentation updates might not make the workload any lighter, but I can pretty much guarantee that it'd make things more cohesive and result in a few less ruffled feathers and bad feelings. Players invest a lot into this game as well, I would like to think that our perspective might be genuinely considered, and our willingness to contribute be capitalized upon.

[Nyr]

In every case so far, we've involved players (you remember the shadow artist stuff maybe?), usually in reviewing the rough draft part of the documentation.  More often than not, this has resulted in better documentation as questions were answered and things we hadn't considered were brought up. Sometimes, the feedback offered has differed drastically from what we were planning to do; in those cases it is unfortunate, but the opportunity was there to present an opinion at least.

The only noteworthy exception was with the Legion, when most everyone was new to it at the time, though even then the templar PCs at the time had already had their say in the templar part of the same documentation.

What retcons and doc changes have we pursued that were made silently, that confused players who have experienced things differently in the past, and perhaps fucked over their PCs?

[Barzalene]

I wonder if we could have more discussion before changes hit, rather than after staff does a lot of work. You mention that sometimes the feedback is drastically different than your plan, but would you consider including us in the planning process?

[valeria]

Maybe this is really weird but... I like focus groups.  I get invited to lawyer focus groups all the time (and am rarely selected), but as a process for finding loopholes, answering previous unasked questions, and brainstorming, focus groups are pretty awesome.  Within limits of course.  If there was ever a city elf focus group I'd be on that like white on rice.

[Dresan]

That is really odd about the levies. I was just asking about them recently in game too and I did get the impression they were something you could join much like shadow artists (are/used to be?). I mean you could be one and still join other clans. I guess you would really need to buy your way out if you wanted to join a clan later on if what evilone is saying is true.  


Hrm. Oh well, maybe I'll go review the threads about tuluk changes and levies more in depth, if its true though I guess the levies still work for people who want to always remain independent/partisans.  

[Delirium]

In every case so far, we've involved players (you remember the shadow artist stuff maybe?), usually in reviewing the rough draft part of the documentation.  More often than not, this has resulted in better documentation as questions were answered and things we hadn't considered were brought up. Sometimes, the feedback offered has differed drastically from what we were planning to do; in those cases it is unfortunate, but the opportunity was there to present an opinion at least.

The only noteworthy exception was with the Legion, when most everyone was new to it at the time, though even then the templar PCs at the time had already had their say in the templar part of the same documentation.

What retcons and doc changes have we pursued that were made silently, that confused players who have experienced things differently in the past, and perhaps fucked over their PCs?

The way elementals evidently respond to player characters. Tuluki documentation. I'd go into more detail, but obviously I'm tongue-tied on the GDB. I've been considering the idea of writing in a request so that I can go into more detail, so perhaps I should, but honestly, I think we've already discussed most of this, and you've said your piece, and I've said mine, and we agree in some areas and I respectfully disagree in others, but haven't felt it was worth arguing over.

I'm not claiming that player input (especially not mine) is going to be perfect - but, Barzalene put it pretty well a few posts prior to this one.

That said, this is the tip of the iceberg of a pretty big debate and I don't want to end up derailing an otherwise focused discussion.

[Nyr]

I think the current stage at which players are involved is reasonable.  Rough draft is (probably?) a lot more basic than what you are thinking.  It means (at minimum):

• the idea has been fleshed out and proposed officially in the proposal process that staff goes through
• the idea in general has been approved by the clan staff and they want to move forward with it
• producers have signed off on the idea

It might be more in-depth than that and there might be a lot of really specified stuff.  Some clans require a lot more feedback.  Some don't.  For instance, there's a thread for templarate changes on the clan board for that clan.  It's 11 pages long.

We aren't going to put up a proposal to other staff that essentially says "work with players to develop documentation towards this end."  The proposal itself would need to either incorporate player ideas previously proposed, or seek out player input on a specific part of a proposal that might well have staff flummoxed.  It's rare, but it happens, and it happened as recently as a few weeks ago.  And that's the rough draft part of it, so...that works out pretty well.

That is really odd about the levies. I was just asking about them recently in game too and I did get the impression they were something you could join much like shadow artists (are/used to be?). I mean you could be one and still join other clans. I guess you would really need to buy your way out if you wanted to join a clan later on if what evilone is saying is true. 

I'm not sure most of it is true or accurate.  There's a post I made that specifically addressed each clan in the role call, there has been recent activity in all of those cases, and recent changes across the board that weren't accounted for by the post made.  It's fair to say that some clans won't want to get involved directly in the levies, which was the intended action; clans do have influence. 

[Nyr]

What retcons and doc changes have we pursued that were made silently, that confused players who have experienced things differently in the past, and perhaps fucked over their PCs?

The way elementals evidently respond to player characters.

Yep, we got tired of them being spammed up for awesome accents and treated like quest vending machines.

Tuluki documentation.

If it's what we've talked about before (it seems like it is) then that wasn't a result of changes to documentation done silently.  The docs were always that way, they always said that, they weren't changed.  They might be in the future, but...we went over that already, no?  I just don't see this as an example of a retcon or a doc change that was pursued silently.