Clans: will take anything with a heartbeat?

[Mendel]

Just curious about people's experiences with the clan recruitment process, both from a recruiter and recruitee view.  I'm an on again, off-again ARMer(who happens to be on again), and the characters I've rolled in the last few years seem to be bombarded with recruitment requests.   While I understand there is a large impetus to involve new characters, and to a greater degree "newbie" characters, I can't help but find it a little off-putting that it's so easy to find a free meal ticket in the game.

Recently, I've wanted to play a salt-of-the-earth, not really good at anything (ICly) character who's poor and struggles for a living.  With job opportunities at every side, it becomes difficult to separate my OOC desires (playtimes, relative independence and exploration, skill growth, connection to plotz) with my IC ones (food, water, shelter, promise of living another day).

I'm wondering a few things:
1) How much do recruiters in any clan try to make the clan feel like a blessing; "This is a rare opportunity, bud.  Better snatch it up."
2) How strict should each clan be about their recruitment of unpromising (looking) nobodies?
3) How much weight do people give their character gen in regards to joining a clan or not or which clan they might join?
4) Do people see newbie gear and just smell "new player" which needs a handout? Or do they see a new character and smell "I need to involve them as speedily as possible"

Just curious.  I seem to come up with more reasons to avoid clanning than I do reasons to join, but the offers are varied, and everywhere.

[Kismetic]

I think that all depends.  I've had characters who recruited with an elitist mentality, ones that recruited desperately for RPT fodder, ones that recruited with the notion that we'd probably murder you in a few weeks if you proved out a failure.  I think when you have so many personalities portrayed by so many players, you're bound to encounter anything, and there is no one single rule.

If it bothers you that people in positions of power are hearkening the poor and unskilled to their causes, I would take a step back and question thousands of years of exploitation by the affluent and the mighty.  After all, it's only a free meal ticket if you're not doing anything for it, and if some rich guy is getting you plump without asking for anything in return, I'd be seriously worried what he plans to do with me!

[Is Friday]

I've had leaders of two major categories:

1.) Hiring just about anyone to be considered interesting/try and justify it later and make the use out of whoever I get.
2.) Hiring only those who make the standard, fit the criteria for what the clan actually needs for its virtual and IC goals, and my PC likes enough.

I cringe whenever I see "employee entitlement", though, which I think stems from too much of #1. PCs will, because there is a shortage of players to hire, think they are special or "needed" in some way more than the average hire-on. Concessions are usually made leader-side, after all, to accommodate the employee.

For the most part whenever I get hired somewhere my PCs are terrible employees. Often my PCs get fired/killed/banished, so I'm not unfamiliar with wanting to have an interesting experience.

[Cutthroat]

There is no such thing as a free lunch. Don't mistake being clanned as having a free meal ticket - you're generally expected by your employer to do your job. That job can involve some pretty dangerous stuff, or it might not, but in any case, it's not the recruitment that matters so much as what happens afterward.

I think you can be a picky recruiter while at the same time generally looking for people who are interested in clanned RP and accepting them with a few other conditions. It's pretty hard to be accurately picky in a world without resumes and background checks. Interviews are essentially a test of what the potential employee will claim they can do before they prove it (or not) during employment. Arguably you're not really an employee that matters until you get past the recruit/runner/probation phase of any particular clan anyway.

[Delirium]

I understand not being picky but I also understand the oddity of being pressured to join a clan just because you're a PC. Best of both worlds scenario that I have found is to interview anyone who seems interested in a job, but don't aggressively approach other PCs with your recruiter.

Unless you're a templar snatching up bodies for the battlefield, or other similar extraordinary circumstances.

[Ghaati111]

Byn recruitment isn't an "extraordinary" circumstance. I think it makes sense to recruit "fresh meat" for the Byn not caring about the quality of the meat.

Noble house clans probably are more discriminating in their recruitment practices. GMH's too because they have valueable assets untested employees can steal too easily. They have to set some kind of minimum standard besides "the character knows his way around and their player knows how to type flee self."

[Bogre]

Someone once tried to recruit a diseased starving 'rinth dwarf of mine into Borsail.

...

As for me, it depends. I try to be selective and pick only PCs that would serve suitably in a clan that calls for it. I've also played leadership where they were -looking- to hire the scum of the earth, basically.

If you're an interesting looking character I generally try to engage/recruit/do something with. If you are bland and boring and mostly just a figure who rides their war beetle from the gates to hunt and back, you probably won't be picked out if I'm playing a recruiting role.

[Patuk]

I want to note something about the whole 'recruitment standards sometimes seem low and it seems jarring' thing.

Have you ever, at all, tried recruiting for a clan?

It's one thing if you're a byn sergeant and things are busy, but holy shit, recruitment can end up getting ridiculous at times.

When I was recruiting for one of the three merchant houses, the amount of people I ended up recruiting was nothing short of tiny. Is Friday stated some people end up having employee's entitlement already, but the reality is that it actually begins at the recruitment process itself. Despite spending hours on end online and devoting half my time at least on putting on a public face and trying to draw in new people, I'd only get the scarcest amount of interviews, and a massive amount of people would argue about the recruitment period being too long, wanting to receive pay, annoyed at not being allowed to leave the freaking Allanaki gates on their own because being eaten by goddamn beetles sounded like a good prospect, more people still actually arguing they'd rather work for the nextdoor independent merchant because they thought they'd get paid better.. My character would just stare. It's really, really, really silly.

Clans do have low standards. It's because nobody plays in clans. If you want them to set higher hiring standards, go play in them. Right now the demand for employees outweighs the supply by a massive amount.

If you don't want to play in clans, that's fine too. God knows I've been screwed over by clans a lot of times.

Just don't complain about them having low standards whilst refusing to actually play in any of them. It's nothing short of senseless.

[Barzalene]

I think people think they need to fill their barracks right away.  They don't. It's not a race.

I will relax standards for a new player, but if it's any one else they have the onus to impress my PC if they want a job.

[RogueGunslinger]

I think people think they need to fill their barracks right away.  They don't. It's not a race.

Some of us leaders like to play with other people sometimes. So yeah, it's kind of needed.

[Patuk]

I couldn't even a bloody dress tailored or a bit of dye materials gathered without having to go to staff. You need people in your clan, whether you like it or not.

[ShaLeah]

Barz is right. It's not a race. It ALL depends on the player and their ability to get shit done. You see Templars who go through aides like toilet paper and others that have had the same aides for years. Leaders who lose everyone and minions who outlast ten leaders.

It's the player, not the character. Clans are to include people but I feel like players join clans to be entertained and are then disappointed when they still suck and nothing happens for them.

[X-D]

I tend to be picky, Oh sure, I will recruit newbies, but how many totally depends on the clan, byn, 50/50, noble/merchant house, 20%, militia, none.

And the ratios apply to PCs that might not be new but might be a poor fit.

[whitt]

I kind of look at this like mining for gold.  If a miner just sits there waiting for a nugget to roll down the stream... well, good luck.  If instead you grab a pan and scoop up a fistful of crap, you might get something...eventually.

So to IG reality - I could try to tally the number of new Runners I saw in the Byn over a six month period (I'll venture 60+) and how many of them I saw for more than an RL week of play before they disappeared (probably about a quarter of that) and then how many survived the IG year to make Trooper?  That's in an active clan, with plenty to do, active leaders, and a regular schedule.  Now put that same turnover rate onto a GMH?  Ouch.  

So yeah, I can understand recruiting every PC you can grab.  Because you have to hope that somewhere in there you've got that one lump of gold - if you can sift it out before someone steals your pan.

[BadSkeelz]

Some clans need large numbers of recruits more than others. May be they need a higher level of active members to function in their role, or maybe the clan itself just has a high attrition rate because of what it does.

Maybe the leader just hates the job of recruiting itself with a fiery passion.

How much a clan recruits and who it recruits is always going to boil down to the clan itself and the players involved on both sides. There's no one standard that can be achieved.

I will relax standards for a new player, but if it's any one else they have the onus to impress my PC if they want a job.

I feel this is a mistake, depending on what you mean by "standards". The only concession I'd advocate making for a new player is time to process the syntax and typing speed. Otherwise, you're giving newbies an unrealistic expectation of what it takes to get clanned. I was challenged and intimidated on my first character to prove I was worth the time of recruiting, and it was a better experience for it.

[Reiloth]

The other thing is, from a leader perspective, you don't know if the person you hire is going to log in again, going to go out of the gates and get eaten by a beetle, or last the month without wanting to quit.

I agree with Cutthroat in that it isn't so much the recruitment, but what happens afterwards.

Clans like the Byn are dictated to not turn anyone away. If they have 300 coins (and sometimes, even if they don't), they get a spot as a Runner in the Byn. This is in part due to OOC expectations. Newbies are sent to this clan primarily, both by Helpers, and even by suggestion on the website. As a Byn Sergeant, it can get pretty hectic -- You'll have sometimes 3-4 recruitments, back to back, just as you are trying to get your drink on in the Gaj. It's par for the course, and most Sarges I see take it in stride. They can also tell the people 'wait until dawn' or recruit multiple people at the same time.

With other clans, there used to be a vetting process (Specifically with Kurac and Kadius, IIRC), where you were discouraged from hiring people immediately after interviewing them. This was a pretty mixed bag -- Employee Expectation, as someone put it, is pretty high. If you aren't going to hire them off the street, someone else will, and people for the most part do not have much patience. When they decide they want to get hired, it's usually not with a specific organization, it's just in general.

To answer the OP's questions --

1) How much do recruiters in any clan try to make the clan feel like a blessing; "This is a rare opportunity, bud.  Better snatch it up."

I've seen this vary. Some Leaders play it aloof, like you are beneath their time and effort, and their organization is so cool that you have to chase them around for an interview. Some players like this (I certainly don't mind it), but as I stated above, a lot of people are looking for the next Clan the moment they get any friction. Some clans, like Salarr, offer discounts to employees on armor and weapons, which is vastly appealing to hunters and the like, so that sort of 'perk' is something other clans can't really offer (Salarr has a monopoly). So I think it depends on what sort of leverage the employer might potentially have over the employee, and if they are clever enough to realize that during the interview process.

2) How strict should each clan be about their recruitment of unpromising (looking) nobodies?

Some clans, like the Borsail Wyverns, are very strict about who they recruit. Having played a Sergeant in that clan as well, I can say this was also a mixed bag. At one point, 3000 coins were offered to anyone who was recruited into the clan, and then made the next rank (So stuck around long enough to make that rank). Even then, recruitment was difficult. Having to find experienced Bynners, or people with experience, was nigh impossible, because those people usually struck into an organization immediately after graduating, or stuck with the Byn.

Unpromising Nobodies turn into Skilled Somebodies, when you get them a chance to regularly train and follow orders. I think most leaders are looking for a PC that's interesting, or seemingly interesting, and not a cookie-cutter, no punctuation dorf/whatever.

3) How much weight do people give their character gen in regards to joining a clan or not or which clan they might join?

I personally give very little weight to what clan I am going to join. I float in the breeze, like most people do during life. If it seems beneficial to join Clan X for my PC, in their mind/motivations, then they will seek joining that clan. I usually do not have the 'life sworn' mentality, as I don't really OOCly agree with this function, and prefer partisanship/less longer term commitments. I've done life-sworn gigs on PCs, and it usually doesn't pay off for my type of play.

I like reinvention within PCs -- A step in a new direction. That becomes very difficult when you are tied down to an organization for your entire life, but not impossible.

4) Do people see newbie gear and just smell "new player" which needs a handout? Or do they see a new character and smell "I need to involve them as speedily as possible"

I personally see it somewhere in the middle. Depending on the PC's emote/say/playstyle, I can usually tell if they are a brand-spanking new newbie that needs a lot of help OOCly and ICly, or if they are a somewhat experienced player with a new PC. In either case, I treat them like another character, and try not to make exceptions for people based on newbie garb.

[Harmless]

From a recruited perspective, I can say that being recruited initially doesn't mean much. It's what you do as a recruit that matters, and many more people who are recruited end up being kicked out or failing the process than those who get their first promotion.

The recruit is on a trial period. Most recruits don't even receive wages in Houses, in my opinion, no recruit should receive wages in any house (this may be how it is.)

With that in mind, I think that being generous in recruiting folks is appropriate. Being sparing with who gets that first promotion is how it seems to be done, and I think for the most part I feel our PC leaders are doing this correctly.

[whitt]

I think that being generous in recruiting folks is appropriate. Being sparing with who gets that first promotion is how it seems to be done, and I think for the most part I feel our PC leaders are doing this correctly.

+1, especially about PC leaders.  Kudos to all of you for being willing to make part of your playtime making opportunities for others.

[Riya OniSenshi]

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,39257.0.html

That thread is sort of related.

[HavokBlue]

Another reason I don't think has been mentioned is the fact that if your clan has more PCs, your minions have more people to interact with when you aren't around, and as a result are more likely to enjoy themselves and stay active/alive.

Not to mention the incredibly high turnover rate. If you hire five recruits in one day, maybe one of them will live long enough to become a useful employee.

[Is Friday]

Okay noobs, here's the deal...

I'm of the opinion that hiring "just anyone" is harmful to most organizations (you can debate which ones on your own time/in a diff thread). Here are some reasons/examples:
1.) When your employees mess up, even your "recruits", it brings upon consequences for your organization. Leaders, especially those that worked hard for their position, don't want their gravy train/next promotion on the line because random douchebag recruit decided to start a fight with AoD. Oh yeah, that's the 3rd recruit you've had that started trouble with the law. Oh yeah, because of that, the Templar just cancelled his orders for X and X--instead he's going to go with someone else for weapons, just to spite you.
2.) If you're looking at building a crew that wants to log in and interact with their clan, if you ask me... the best kind of crew is one that is serious about the organization. That means that they're committed to advancing themselves for the organization, create synergy, all of that good stuff. This does not automatically equate to "we're a big happy family", but moreso that they're not just shitheads sticking around for the skills. Nothing kills the chemistry in some clans (Byn not included) than some guy who just logs on to spar. Clans are about interaction.
3.) There are some organizations that are elitist. There are others that are elite. The latter are those organizations who conduct themselves seriously for business and put their best foot forward, whatever their field may be. Okay, hunting clan. "We're gonna be the best hunters so that we make more money and I get promoted, etc." That's how monopolies work (GMH), that's how noble houses work (gathering more political power), that's how anyone/anything successful works. Build success with a solid crew, not by rewarding attendance and a heartbeat. There's no blue ribbon CONGRATULATIONS character creation tattoo. (Sorry Tuluk.)
4.) Keep in mind that the longer you are in an organization, the more trust you are given to represent that organization. So essentially, once you're a Lieutenant/Captain/Agent, you ARE that organization to the majority of the world. So if you are not successful or representing that organization as the organization wants, then that's just the way the cookie crumbles baby, good luck being a recruit somewhere else.

Keep in mind a lot of this is conceded in the name of "gameplay" or "ease of use" for noobs. But don't be surprised if some leader tells you to go sit on a short spear instead of laying down 15 rantarri rugs to invite you into the estate.

[valeria]

I have gone to both extremes.  With my GMH merchant, I would hire anything with a heartbeat.  Most of them were going to die anyway.  We almost always needed hunters because most of them were going to die.  With my noble clan Sergeant, same thing, as long as it fit the noble's basic hiring criteria.  I was almost always starved for people.  So I would encourage anything that moved to interview.

With my nobles, I made it clear the position was a privilege.  I got people lining up to apply, and filled up my space quickly.  Then I stopped actively hiring and let my minions find me other people as needed.

With my templar, I had to beat people off with a stick.  I constantly turned down requests for "employment," but offered a lot of alternate ways to assist the templarate.  I strongly encouraged serious applicants for an already-filled position to kill their competition if they wanted the job, a la "I don't need two aides, but if you can kill my aide you really deserve the position."

I don't know if that helps any, but that's my take on it: If my character needs people and the bodies don't matter, they will try to hire anything that doesn't have tentacles, but if they can afford to be picky, they will be picky.

[Tuannon]

Some clans aren't 'cool', so the people they tend to (slowly) hire are usually really good employees because they want to be there or newbies, who are also good because they're blank slates.

[bracken]

I agree with the OP that recruiters should give independent minded PCs and players a bit of space to find their stories. Let them go and scratch out an existence. When they get lonely enough , they'll come looking for a house coloured PC.
Courting and seducing good, press ganging bad, for most clans  outside the military.

[Red Ranger]

There is an OOC vs. IC supply/demand mismatch when it comes to clan recruits. It leads to this behavior here:

So yeah, I can understand recruiting every PC you can grab.  Because you have to hope that somewhere in there you've got that one lump of gold - if you can sift it out before someone steals your pan.

Snapping up every recruit totally makes sense within the context of the internecine conflict of Zalanthas where clans and individuals compete for scarce resources. Except IC'ly recruits aren't a scarce resource. It's only OOC'ly that they're scarce.

I'm with IsFriday on this:

I'm of the opinion that hiring "just anyone" is harmful to most organizations (you can debate which ones on your own time/in a diff thread). Here are some reasons/examples:
1.) When your employees mess up, even your "recruits", it brings upon consequences for your organization. Leaders, especially those that worked hard for their position, don't want their gravy train/next promotion on the line because random douchebag recruit decided to start a fight with AoD. Oh yeah, that's the 3rd recruit you've had that started trouble with the law. Oh yeah, because of that, the Templar just cancelled his orders for X and X--instead he's going to go with someone else for weapons, just to spite you.

Or there should be consequences for the leaders when the peons crap the bed, at least for image conscious clans.

I've shared my opinion on this before:

I think there is a distortion of the supply and demand for potential hirelings in the eyes of leader PCs.  In my opinion, to a leader PC in a given city there is often a limited pool of hireling PCs compared to the large number of positions that multiple PC clans are trying to fill.  Thus OOC'ly the hiring scene can often play out like a "sellers' markers" where the potential PC hirelings shop around to get the best deal, which can include shopping around for a coddling and nonjudgmental employer PC who is willing to overlook many flaws in their PC employees and who may also go to war to protect their low level PC "snowflakes."

But there are additional ways to help correct the current situation of OOC hiring concerns directly contradicting and trumping IC hiring concerns.  This is a roleplaying game after all, and we're all supposed to be acting IC'ly based on IC concerns.  After all, isn't the OOC incentive for elves to ride mounts?  OOC'ly it costs the riding elf less stamina when they travel around, so what's not to like?   Isn't the OOC incentive for leader PCs to have magickers on the payroll?  After all, magickers are powerful and one magicker might be able to do the specialized work that any number mundane PCs can't.  Fortunately I haven't heard of a riding elf in many many years, and in my view the exceptions made for magicky PC employment in major clans have dramatically declined (though I guess maybe the exceptions made for magicky PC mudsex haven't declined).

My preferred solution to the problem that I see in the OOC versus IC supply/demand mismatch in PC hirelings is... more conscientious RP.  IC'ly hirelings don't have any rights, nor should they have a sense of entitlement to a good job with reasonable working conditions, those are silly RL notions that literally don't exist in Zalanthas.  Similarly employers shouldn't (typically) feel pressured IC to hire folks just to fill the ranks.  Having hirelings shouldn't be an important end in itself for most clan leaders, but rather Doing Something Important^TM should be the end that is sought by PC leaders and IC'ly rewarded.  If Doing Something Important^TM requires making exceptions when hiring PCs and then coddling those PCs (which could be often!) then great, but there should also be an IC downside to nobles hiring mumbly mouthed dwarves who can't even speak the King's Sirihish properly, to merchants that employ halfbreeds, or to any leader who has a reputation for flying off the handle over trivial injuries to their mek-fodder peons who will be dead in a month.

Align the OOC and IC incentives, people!  Let's RP!

The gold sifting recruiters might be a bit more careful about scooping up everything they find if instead of mostly mud they occasionally get a venomous snake.

Also, this whole 2-page thread is worth a read: Are clans too nice to their minions?

edit: typo