Discussion for the Legions / tribal levies

[Nyr]

"If you join our clan we offer training."

"No thanks man, I get that in the levies. What else ya' got?"

Pretty incorrect.  You get irregular training when a legionnaire is free.  It still might be every RL day, but you won't even have access to a training area without the Legion present.

"Free food and water."

"Nope, don't need that, I'm in the levies. What else ya' got?"

Technically correct (the best kind of correct) but in reality you'll probably get better food and water in the Byn.

"A place to stay."

"Nope, I kind of get that in the levies already. What else ya' got?"

Also technically correct.  Good luck storing your things and expecting no one to steal them.  Who are you going to report it to?  Good luck staying safe in a fairly public barracks.

"People to watch your back?"

"I have an entire city of people who have my back due to being in the levies. What else ya' got?"

If "keeping you alive long enough to let you die for the city-state" means "we've got your back" then sure, this is correct.

"We offer some pay?"

"I can make more as an indy in the levies. What else ya' got?"

This is the only thing on the list that is a problem indicative of the player rather than the role.  If you can make a lot of coin as an indie, it doesn't mean you should.

"Being a member of my House/Clan can garner you more respect than a basic commoner?"

"I already get more respect in Tuluk due to being in the levies. I'm a respected patriot. What else ya' got?"

You get more "respect" in Tuluk due to being in the levies.  Sure.  Tulukis view the role as being patriotic.   In reality, they are an oppressed group of people subservient to a totalitarian government that wants them to think that being a tribal levy is patriotic.

So keep chewing on your gruel.  Down your dirty water.  That won't provide for your family or anything, but it'll keep you living long enough to throw yourself at an enemy of the state.  Sleep in your barracks with some people that literally have no where else to go, some that might be willing to shank you because you were dumb enough to bring your "indie wealth" into a "free barracks."  Do your training with the gear you aren't given and have to buy on your own, if you ever do.  It's all worth it to get that extra bump of respect that might give you a crappy table somewhere, and also to possibly fight and die for the city-state.

It's patriotic.

One quick thing to note here...there are always two sides to any presented story in Tuluk.  You can focus on the rosy picture of glitz and glamour or you can look past the facade and see what is really going on. There are a gamut of possibilities for the levies, some of which were indicated in that initial post.  You might join for the adventure and because it's patriotic AND you might be loaded...so you just show up and spar when there's a Legionnaire around.  And there might be a call that goes out for all of the levies to respond, and you might say "oh my, that army looks rather dangerous.  I think I'll pass!" and bribe a templar to overlook your lack of participation.  And you might get stabbed in the back (figuratively or literally) by "more patriotic" members of the levy that feel your flaunted wealth in the levies is just unacceptable.

Another quick thing to note here...being a "respected patriot" of the levies doesn't offer quite the bump to social status you seem to think it does.

[Desertman]

I absolutely agree it SHOULD be viewed by the playerbase as a bare minimum gritty commoner almost "last resort" experience.

Now, based on how I've seen Tuluk work (or the playerbase for that matter) for the most part...do we really expect that to happen, or do we think it is going to be used as a city-wide patriotic sparring time unity exercise where everyone is there and happy to be serving as one for the Sun King?

Again, just playing the DA. I've seen this problem before when we had city-wide sparring/unofficial conscripts in Tuluk. I played there during the time, and to me personally it always felt like an exercise in:

"Welcome my happy good friends. We will all hold hands and worship the Sun King together and it will be glorious and we can dance and sing and train together for the betterment of each other, my brothers and sisters, and our happy family called Tuluk."


I just have such a hard time visualizing this not becoming another exercise in that. It seems like that, but backed by documentation now.

I would say my status is wary, but open to the concept, because as a concept, I like it. I just don't want to see the playerbase take the concept and morph it into what I've seen a similar concept become in fairly recent history.

The idea of having to have a Legion soldier present to watch over the training doesn't seem like much of a limiting factor. In the time mentioned before, it was pretty common place to see people walk into the Sanctuary and say, "Hey, want to go spar? Cool, let's go spar." It happened more times than I can count.

I would recommend having some sort of limitation on this in the Legion docs that prevents the Legion from becoming your local training dummy/being hounded constantly by the patriotic levies to "Come train us Mr. Legion Dude.", "Hey, you just walked into a tavern, let's go train.", "Hey, you are now online and I have found your mind to train." I would hope that wouldn't happen, but I've seen it happen.

[Harmless]

This is ll ecxellent. Good to see the docs updated and to see a long player driven effort come to fruition. I am proud.

[manonfire]

If I wanted to play a Legion mul, would my character be capped at Private?

[Nyr]

stuff

Thank you for showing us how it could be abused if staff were not keeping track of it and had not considered how it could be abused.

[Nyr]

If I wanted to play a Legion mul, would my character be capped at Private?

You'd be a slave, so it'd be a special app role anyway, and yes.

[Desertman]

stuff

Thank you for showing us how it could be abused if staff were not keeping track of it and had not considered how it could be abused.

You are welcome. Just trying to throw out ideas/possibilities you may not have considered/already thought of. I realize that may be impossible, but, just trying.

[Nyr]

stuff

Thank you for showing us how it could be abused if staff were not keeping track of it and had not considered how it could be abused.

You are welcome. Just trying to throw out ideas/possibilities you may not have considered. I realize that may be impossible, but, just trying.

We've been working on this for five months.  I understand being fearful of players screwing everything up, but that is only one factor to consider when adding something new to the game.  We are willing to see how players handle the situation before restricting or changing it further than indicated.

[Desertman]

stuff

Thank you for showing us how it could be abused if staff were not keeping track of it and had not considered how it could be abused.

You are welcome. Just trying to throw out ideas/possibilities you may not have considered. I realize that may be impossible, but, just trying.

We've been working on this for five months.  I understand being fearful of players screwing everything up, but that is only one factor to consider when adding something new to the game.  We are willing to see how players handle the situation before restricting or changing it further than indicated.

Cool cool. If it isn't already in place I might recommend something that prevents levies, or makes it bad form for levies (you know what I mean) to actually request a "training day". Instead they might just be expected to "show up" when one is announced? Again, this may very well already be the case. Just thinking out loud.

I wouldn't want to play in the Legion and be constantly hounded by dudes trying to get their skillzorz for the day. I can see it driving me nuts. On the other hand, I would probably enjoy getting to set a training day, and training people, and then catching the ones who "skipped out" and hassling them about it.

[Jingo]

Allow legionaires to extort coin from levies.

[Knight of Knives]

I absolutely agree it SHOULD be viewed by the playerbase as a bare minimum gritty commoner almost "last resort" experience.

Now, based on how I've seen Tuluk work (or the playerbase for that matter) for the most part...do we really expect that to happen, or do we think it is going to be used as a city-wide patriotic sparring time unity exercise where everyone is there and happy to be serving as one for the Sun King?

I just have such a hard time visualizing this not becoming another exercise in that. It seems like that, but backed by documentation now.

I would say my status is wary, but open to the concept, because as a concept, I like it. I just don't want to see the playerbase take the concept and morph it into what I've seen a similar concept become in fairly recent history.

This is not going to be happy. Tribal levies are not going to be pleasant.

Pteryges, face paint, and torches.

You will be unprepared.

[Nyr]

I started to outline what went into the militia changes, but every time I thought I was done, I ended up going back a step to previous discussion about another change that affected it.  Many of the changes we've been implementing required implementation in series rather than in parallel.  Some things needed plot to drive them and others did not, but all were linked in some way to each other.  Maybe this will give insight into the work involved in changing "just one clan."

• Bard documentation worked on and completed in summer of 2012.  Major changes include actual docs for some lacking circles, arcs of focus, the playability of Bard/Masterbard PC roles, and relationships between the Circles and external employers.
• Brainstorming on what to do with governorship stuff/qynar/etc. and some of the seemingly impossible-to-change stuff in Tuluk due to its massive scale in summer of 2012.  Several ideas floated and ultimately unable to complete due to staffing changes.
• Plot development begins for HRPT and overall world changes resulting from it in October 2012.  This approaches more of the plot side of things rather than specific changes, though we knew at that point we were getting rid of both Orders and making changes to the Tuluki landscape.
  
• First mention of changes to the Legion documentation in March 2013, though it is a bullet point mentioned with other changes to Tuluk.
• Had to have the plot stuff (driven by animations/planning/coordination) happen in order to get to the point where we could do more stuff, as the same staff working on the plot stuff is the same staff working on the changes.
• Militia changes as a whole laid down in August 2013.  At this point a general structure was provided and proposed for discussion among staff.  Structure shows almost everything we've implemented.
• Review of shadow artists brought up officially in August 2013 as we begin to dig into the problems of the missing documentation.  As this is a change to a visible and non-clan-related system, we put it up for feedback in September 2013.  Massive amounts of feedback, almost 20 pages or so.  Wow.  We make adjustments and put it live in November 2013.
• Schedule updated for the Legions in August 2013, bringing it more in line with a more general structure used in a different military clan.
• Templarate shift in September 2013.  Uniform process has been an ongoing discussion by this point among staff and we have plenty of ideas and now seek out players for art assistance.  Nyr likes capes for some reason, probably because he played Assassin's Creed, but doesn't think it'll catch on as something that looks okay.  Still, the idea is proposed to the player artists.  Endure mountains of Incredibles jokes.  Still, the end result looks better than anticipated and we roll with that as the concept.
• Templarate documentation work proceeds apace, with some minute changes for the players so they can continue to play templars.
• Militia documentation discussion proceeds as well, we narrow down possibilities from "kill all nonhumans" to "maybe let some nonhumans still play."  Comparisons continue between both militaries to be sure that the changes made both make sense from a world perspective and also do not provide anything incredibly strange.  Balance issues considered, role opportunities laid out, general process for advancement laid out and perks considered as a whole.  Playability concerns arise and are discussed and ultimately decided on as a test for this clan.
• Rathustra proposes tribal levies idea officially in October 2013, though it is discussed earlier than that as a concept.  Discussion and ideas develop from that as we look at why the Arena situation did not work and why it was not appealing from a staff perspective.  This is also taken on as a sort of test situation and scenario for the city-state.
• Templarate documentation work goes on the boards in November 2013, compiling nearly 10,000 words of docs.  This affects their relationship to the Legions but the Legions side of docs are not completed yet.
• Uniforms built and in-game in February 2014.  Still working on some code-related crap with the uniforms and with certain NPC templars not liking wearing them codedly.  More updates to templar docs ongoing to bring things more in line with recent changes like Negean in March 2014.
• Docs in a written format but not posted to the militia by February 2014.  Discussed with templarate players about what we were planning to do, got some more feedback from a templar PC perspective, made adjustments.
• Deciding where to put the damn barracks.  Found a spot.  You'll see it in-game.
• Docs go live for militia players and the larger changes made public for player review March 2014.

[Nyr]

Allow legionaires to extort coin from levies.

"allow"

heh.

[number13]

Awesome idea. I love it.

[Zoan]

I have the impression the Levies is the new Undertuluk.

[Kismetic]

"Welcome my happy good friends. We will all hold hands and worship the Sun King together and it will be glorious and we can dance and sing and train together for the betterment of each other, my brothers and sisters, and our happy family called Tuluk."

I led that little cheer group.  What you don't understand, and would never get, is that I wanted to train you all to lead you to your deaths down a kryl nest.  Nothing else mattered, but revenge.  Tuluk is never what you think it is on the surface, it is always the Sun King this and that, and that's a powerful weapon if you're willing to exploit it.

Nyr has since told me that the way I used the Arena was not how it was intended to be used.  The concept of the levies makes this much more formalized and controlled.  I dig it!

I hope it brings out the grit of Tuluk, too.  If you've ever been in the Warrens, well, it's not a pretty, shiny, happy place.  A good majority of the virtual population of the levies will be people from the Warrens who can't hack it anywhere else, and need a meal.  I hope that gets represented in the player population in some sense.

[Harmless]

Happy hugfest happy hugfest. That's aaaall that tuluk is ::eyeroll::

[Kismetic]

Happy hugfest happy hugfest. That's aaaall that tuluk is

Let's not have this thread devolve into that.  Anyone who has played in Tuluk long enough knows that's not true.  I don't have more to add other than I'm interested to see how this plays out in the game.

Edit to add:   Cool concept, Rathustra.  Totally fraaaaiche

[Desertman]

Please note, if the deception, grit, and exploitation are so well hidden and so subtle in Tuluk that nobody ever even realizes there is any exploitation, grit, or deception....well...it really defeats the purpose. To everyone except the two pc's "in the know", it will always seem like happy hand holding time for the Sun King, that is all their play will ever reflect, and to the majority of the playerbase that is how Tuluk will be perceived.

I understand, "Most of you will never get how devious that was."....and that may just be the problem. Most people never will get how devious that was....so most people will always remember it as a happy patriotic fun time tea party of hand holding and zealotry for the betterment and prosperity of the people as a whole.

I'm looking forward to the new docs and levies bringing some of the reality that is the grit of Tuluk to the surface. I think this is going to go a long way in curbing the idea that Tuluk is "softer" than Allanak. They will have their own standing force of dirty commoner meat shields intended for just that purpose. I think that is glorious. I would love to be in charge of training these people and setting the "bar" for how they should be treated and perceived.  

[Kismetic]

I'm sorry, sir, but I doubt you played a Tuluki at that time.  Pretty much everyone was "in the know" except the occasional turbo-button newblets who came to sparspar happy time, and THEY were the ones who got the Do It For Jesus treatment.  I don't wanna derail this thread into a discussion about Tuluk roleplay, though.  I do wholly agree that this will bring Tuluk "down to earth" for a good slice of the playerbase, and I hope people will come try it out.

Especially you.  You are the GDB champion for grit and gore.  Bring it along.

[Desertman]

I was playing a dirty grungy commoner. So I was of course ostracized by most everyone who would have been in the know sadly.

Dirty commoner in Tuluk doesn't attract much in the way of friends, especially the sort of friends who would be in the know I guess. That makes sense.

[Kismetic]

I was playing a dirty grungy commoner.

If you aren't a noble, you're a grungy commoner.  

My dude was head to toe in vicious, crippling acid scars.  Nobody who fights for that long stays pretty.  That was part of the fun, like the line from Fight Club, "I wanted to destroy something beautiful."  I get where you're coming from, as if you can't sit around in the Sanctuary, and you're not in a clan, you might miss some things.  That's part of what I tried to do with the Arena, but it ended up creating problems for staff.  That's why I think the levies are a perfect meeting ground.  I challenge you to play in the levies, now.  

[Lizzie]

I'm hoping this tribal levies thing will help chill out on the perception of happy-happy-joy-joy funland too. And I'm someone who has played fairly recently in Tuluk, who usually plays long-lived characters (longer than 2 RL months at a stretch), who plays usually around peak-time AND occasionally off-peak, and who usually, when clanned, gets stuck in lower-management positions. Yes, the happy happy was a facade. But even I didn't really get the point of the facade, because everyone was so busy being subtle, that no one was telling anyone what (if anything) was going on.

[Nyr]

Please note, if the deception, grit, and exploitation are so well hidden and so subtle in Tuluk that nobody ever even realizes there is any exploitation, grit, or deception....well...it really defeats the purpose. To everyone except the two pc's "in the know", it will always seem like happy hand holding time for the Sun King, that is all their play will ever reflect, and to the majority of the playerbase that is how Tuluk will be perceived.

You've accurately described what we have addressed and continue to address in Tuluk, though it also was nowhere near the levels of hyperbole you've suggested.  I encourage you to move past what you didn't like about it before and to also move past what you think its playerbase is like and instead focus on the now.

[Harmless]

Well said Nyr.