Discussion for the Legions / tribal levies

[Nyr]

This thread is for any questions or comments about the changes to the Legions (or the introduction of the tribal levies).

A quick FAQ for both:



Does this mean I can do a "stint" in the Legions?
Yes.  That was put in the announcement!

Why remove vertical advancement for nonhumans in the Legion?
Tuluk might be Tuluki enough to allow nonhumans (well, non-elf nonhumans) into its military, but racism and racial prejudice exist in Zalanthas and also in the Legion.  There are still a couple of places with exceptions for vertical advancement of nonhumans.

What kind of perks?  What do you mean by "more autonomous"?
Find out in-game if you wish.

What does "no official training" mean in the tribal levies?
It means that training will be limited access, supervised by the Legion.

Is this tribal levy thing going to be a coded clan?
No.

Do I get crim-code immunity as a tribal levy member?
No.

Can I be part of a clan and be in the levies?
Yes.

What if my clan obligations override my levy obligations?
That's where the levy tax comes in.

Wait, I have to show up whenever this "call" occurs?
That's the deal.  You get enough food and water to survive, a place to sleep if you need it, and some training every now and then.  In return, you are expected to show up when you are needed.  This expectation will be reasonable on an OOC front provided you are reasonable on an OOC front.

What does that mean exactly?
You wouldn't (or shouldn't) be penalized for just not being online when you're needed.  If you have to log out, it'd be silly to expect you to stay in and play, same as it would be if you were a part of a clan doing an RPT.  If you abuse that then that'll be addressed by staff.  If you have some IC reason you don't want to (or can't) heed the call, it can be dealt with in an IC way, but understand that IC obligation IS there.  Bribe your way out of it; if you can't, them's the breaks and that's what you "volunteered" for.

[BadSkeelz]

"Introduction of additional rank categories for Privates, Corporals, and Sergeants, each with perks."

Can this be elaborated on?

[RogueGunslinger]

Oh my... Fuck me for canceling that northern legionnaire concept I was too chicken to try.

[Nyr]

"Introduction of additional rank categories for Privates, Corporals, and Sergeants, each with perks."

Can this be elaborated on?

In short, there will be options for rank advancement and perks to pursue for people that want to do those things.

If you want to advance your character in rank but aren't interested in being a leader, there are now options to do so.
If you want to advance your character in rank and are interested in being a leader, there are also options to advance that way more easily and with more focus.
If you want to just play a soldier that doesn't do well enough to get advanced, you can do that, too.

[Jingo]

Free copper bangles and silk thongs in Tuluk.

[James de Monet]

Irregular militia FTW

Love the concept. Very Tuluki!

[Riev]

Sign me up to train the Levies! Just give me 9 RL months and unfettered access to <certain statted mobs> without staff observation and I'll be right on it!

[Zoan]

Sign me up to train the Levies! Just give me 9 RL months and unfettered access to <certain statted mobs> without staff observation and I'll be right on it!

IORETH GITHFUCKER APPROVES.

[slvrmoontiger]

This is really interesting. Very Tuluki.

Could you elaborate on what is meant by this bullet:

Templarate and Lyksae removed from rank structure of the Legions.

say (getting on ^me hands and knees and in a begging voice) Please don't say find out IG.

[BleakOne]

I like it.

It makes a nice contrast between the different militias too. In Tuluk it seems fitting that there'd be the levy of citizens awaiting the call of their benevolent King, ready to drop their regular business and kick some southron ass at the drop of a sun-adorned headdress. Adds to the 'they have eyes everywhere' and 'we love Big Brother' themes.

Somehow it makes Allanak feel more Allanaki too, but that's for another topic.

[Evilone]

I love the Legion, and I'm glad the docs are in now. Can't wait to see them in greater detail. Wish I still had my Legionnaire.

Good to see the chain of command fleshed out more. I had hoped for that. Another idea I remember bringing up was rewards for service, medals? and so on. That would be really nice too. Plus more campaigns to actually earn them be great too

[Zoan]

Stop making Tuluk cool, it makes it too hard to mock.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I like it.

It makes a nice contrast between the different militias too. In Tuluk it seems fitting that there'd be the levy of citizens awaiting the call of their benevolent King, ready to drop their regular business and kick some southron ass at the drop of a sun-adorned headdress. Adds to the 'they have eyes everywhere' and 'we love Big Brother' themes.

Somehow it makes Allanak feel more Allanaki too, but that's for another topic.

I really do like it. Tuluk is certainly becoming it's own distinct entity.

[Bushranger]

How come this is all I can think of when I read about the tribal levies?

[Rathustra]

Hi, I'm Rathustra and I have been working with Nyr and the Northlands to design the levies! Ask me anything!

[Cutthroat]

Oh my... Fuck me for canceling that northern legionnaire concept I was too chicken to try.

It's not too late to un-cancel a concept.

For the most part, these levies are expected to do one thing, and one thing only:

Anyway, I think the idea is great. I think it makes this clan more playable for players who don't like life-oath style commitments. I don't have much else to say about it.

[Barsook]

Never mind!

[Nyr]

This is really interesting. Very Tuluki.

Could you elaborate on what is meant by this bullet:

Templarate and Lyksae removed from rank structure of the Legions.

say (getting on ^me hands and knees and in a begging voice) Please don't say find out IG.

It means pretty much exactly that.  Lyksae no longer has equivalent rank in the Legion matching their House.  Templars no longer have rank in the Legion, either.  The Legion are soldiers, not nobles, not templars.  That's all you need to know.  If you're a Lyksaen, you'll know more.  If you're a Legionnaire, you'll know more.  If you're a templar, you'll know more.

[JustAnotherGuy]

Sounds like some awesome changes and I'm happy to see them.

With the onset of these changes (I  know you can't speak for others), but can we expect to see changes like these moving to other clans?  In particular the changes to recruit time, life sworn aspects, and also being able to "retire" from a clan without having to store.  These are big for a clan and seeing these changes in other clans might make some clans more desirable to join.

[Nyr]

Another thing it does is remove explicit virtual resources (stated in the documentation before as absolutely direct command over dozens--if not hundreds--of virtual soldiers) from the hands of players.  That's a rather large amount of virtual power and influence that cannot be properly represented without staff involvement, and in general, the role of a templar is not one that we feel should concern itself with the day-to-day administration of this particular military organization.  They say "do" and it does.  That's not to say that templar PCs have no involvement with the Legion; they still do.  Recruiting and providing tasks is still part of their role.  They can still fire soldiers, too.  However,  a templar's role is not solely "find things for soldiers to do" anymore than a soldier's role is solely "be a soldier."  That's part of what is expected in the Legion docs changes--more opportunity there for soldiers to pursue other roles that are more like lateral options.  For instance, train the levies?  Here, this tattoo says you can do that, you've earned it.

The virtual resources (the virtual Legions) are still there and are available at the need of player and plot.  However, they will now be assessed against the needs and desires of the virtual city-state and the powers-that-be (in other words, in coordination with staff).

[Barsook]

Sounds like some awesome changes and I'm happy to see them.

With the onset of these changes (I  know you can't speak for others), but can we expect to see changes like these moving to other clans?  In particular the changes to recruit time, life sworn aspects, and also being able to "retire" from a clan without having to store.  These are big for a clan and seeing these changes in other clans might make some clans more desirable to join.

I do indeed like the changes and I'm questing the same thing that JAG is because it would add more fun to the lifeswore since they don't need to store to just retire.

[Nyr]

Sounds like some awesome changes and I'm happy to see them.

With the onset of these changes (I  know you can't speak for others), but can we expect to see changes like these moving to other clans?  In particular the changes to recruit time, life sworn aspects, and also being able to "retire" from a clan without having to store.  These are big for a clan and seeing these changes in other clans might make some clans more desirable to join.

I wouldn't say "expect" so much as "hope".  This is a good test bed for changes.  Should it work out well in the Legions, it may expand to places where it makes sense.

[Desertman]

I just hope the levies don't become a default thing almost everyone in the north joins as a way to have universal sparring time throughout the city. Everyone holding hands singing songs in a sparring circle of patriotic city-wide unity (while sipping tea of course).

"If you join our clan we offer training."

"No thanks man, I get that in the levies. What else ya' got?"

"Free food and water."

"Nope, don't need that, I'm in the levies. What else ya' got?"

"A place to stay."

"Nope, I kind of get that in the levies already. What else ya' got?"

"People to watch your back?"

"I have an entire city of people who have my back due to being in the levies. What else ya' got?"

"We offer some pay?"

"I can make more as an indy in the levies. What else ya' got?"

"Being a member of my House/Clan can garner you more respect than a basic commoner?"

"I already get more respect in Tuluk due to being in the levies. I'm a respected patriot. What else ya' got?"

"Screw it, I'm quitting my House and joining the levies too. You just convinced me."

(Just sort of playing the DA here. I can see some people doing this. Myself included.)

[whitt]

"Nope, don't need that, I'm in the levies. What else ya' got?"

"We can leave Tuluk without being (immediately) executed as a spy in the South or a traitor in the North."

"Nope, don't need that, I'm ... oh... hmmm.  There's life outside of Tuluk?"

[Desertman]

"Nope, don't need that, I'm in the levies. What else ya' got?"

"We can leave Tuluk without being (immediately) executed as a spy in the South or a traitor in the North."

"Nope, don't need that, I'm ... oh... hmmm.  There's life outside of Tuluk?"

That's a good perk I suppose, though I would argue anyone who would actually join the levies is such a Tuluki patriot already that they wouldn't want to go south anyways. So it isn't a perk for anyone that would even consider the levies.

(And not to derail but I can absolutely see Tuluki and Allanaki Templars executing these people anyways. They will only have to kill a couple before the Houses learn to keep their Tuluki employees in Tuluk, and their Naki employees in Allanak.)

[Nyr]

"If you join our clan we offer training."

"No thanks man, I get that in the levies. What else ya' got?"

Pretty incorrect.  You get irregular training when a legionnaire is free.  It still might be every RL day, but you won't even have access to a training area without the Legion present.

"Free food and water."

"Nope, don't need that, I'm in the levies. What else ya' got?"

Technically correct (the best kind of correct) but in reality you'll probably get better food and water in the Byn.

"A place to stay."

"Nope, I kind of get that in the levies already. What else ya' got?"

Also technically correct.  Good luck storing your things and expecting no one to steal them.  Who are you going to report it to?  Good luck staying safe in a fairly public barracks.

"People to watch your back?"

"I have an entire city of people who have my back due to being in the levies. What else ya' got?"

If "keeping you alive long enough to let you die for the city-state" means "we've got your back" then sure, this is correct.

"We offer some pay?"

"I can make more as an indy in the levies. What else ya' got?"

This is the only thing on the list that is a problem indicative of the player rather than the role.  If you can make a lot of coin as an indie, it doesn't mean you should.

"Being a member of my House/Clan can garner you more respect than a basic commoner?"

"I already get more respect in Tuluk due to being in the levies. I'm a respected patriot. What else ya' got?"

You get more "respect" in Tuluk due to being in the levies.  Sure.  Tulukis view the role as being patriotic.   In reality, they are an oppressed group of people subservient to a totalitarian government that wants them to think that being a tribal levy is patriotic.

So keep chewing on your gruel.  Down your dirty water.  That won't provide for your family or anything, but it'll keep you living long enough to throw yourself at an enemy of the state.  Sleep in your barracks with some people that literally have no where else to go, some that might be willing to shank you because you were dumb enough to bring your "indie wealth" into a "free barracks."  Do your training with the gear you aren't given and have to buy on your own, if you ever do.  It's all worth it to get that extra bump of respect that might give you a crappy table somewhere, and also to possibly fight and die for the city-state.

It's patriotic.

One quick thing to note here...there are always two sides to any presented story in Tuluk.  You can focus on the rosy picture of glitz and glamour or you can look past the facade and see what is really going on. There are a gamut of possibilities for the levies, some of which were indicated in that initial post.  You might join for the adventure and because it's patriotic AND you might be loaded...so you just show up and spar when there's a Legionnaire around.  And there might be a call that goes out for all of the levies to respond, and you might say "oh my, that army looks rather dangerous.  I think I'll pass!" and bribe a templar to overlook your lack of participation.  And you might get stabbed in the back (figuratively or literally) by "more patriotic" members of the levy that feel your flaunted wealth in the levies is just unacceptable.

Another quick thing to note here...being a "respected patriot" of the levies doesn't offer quite the bump to social status you seem to think it does.

[Desertman]

I absolutely agree it SHOULD be viewed by the playerbase as a bare minimum gritty commoner almost "last resort" experience.

Now, based on how I've seen Tuluk work (or the playerbase for that matter) for the most part...do we really expect that to happen, or do we think it is going to be used as a city-wide patriotic sparring time unity exercise where everyone is there and happy to be serving as one for the Sun King?

Again, just playing the DA. I've seen this problem before when we had city-wide sparring/unofficial conscripts in Tuluk. I played there during the time, and to me personally it always felt like an exercise in:

"Welcome my happy good friends. We will all hold hands and worship the Sun King together and it will be glorious and we can dance and sing and train together for the betterment of each other, my brothers and sisters, and our happy family called Tuluk."


I just have such a hard time visualizing this not becoming another exercise in that. It seems like that, but backed by documentation now.

I would say my status is wary, but open to the concept, because as a concept, I like it. I just don't want to see the playerbase take the concept and morph it into what I've seen a similar concept become in fairly recent history.

The idea of having to have a Legion soldier present to watch over the training doesn't seem like much of a limiting factor. In the time mentioned before, it was pretty common place to see people walk into the Sanctuary and say, "Hey, want to go spar? Cool, let's go spar." It happened more times than I can count.

I would recommend having some sort of limitation on this in the Legion docs that prevents the Legion from becoming your local training dummy/being hounded constantly by the patriotic levies to "Come train us Mr. Legion Dude.", "Hey, you just walked into a tavern, let's go train.", "Hey, you are now online and I have found your mind to train." I would hope that wouldn't happen, but I've seen it happen.

[Harmless]

This is ll ecxellent. Good to see the docs updated and to see a long player driven effort come to fruition. I am proud.

[manonfire]

If I wanted to play a Legion mul, would my character be capped at Private?

[Nyr]

stuff

Thank you for showing us how it could be abused if staff were not keeping track of it and had not considered how it could be abused.

[Nyr]

If I wanted to play a Legion mul, would my character be capped at Private?

You'd be a slave, so it'd be a special app role anyway, and yes.

[Desertman]

stuff

Thank you for showing us how it could be abused if staff were not keeping track of it and had not considered how it could be abused.

You are welcome. Just trying to throw out ideas/possibilities you may not have considered/already thought of. I realize that may be impossible, but, just trying.

[Nyr]

stuff

Thank you for showing us how it could be abused if staff were not keeping track of it and had not considered how it could be abused.

You are welcome. Just trying to throw out ideas/possibilities you may not have considered. I realize that may be impossible, but, just trying.

We've been working on this for five months.  I understand being fearful of players screwing everything up, but that is only one factor to consider when adding something new to the game.  We are willing to see how players handle the situation before restricting or changing it further than indicated.

[Desertman]

stuff

Thank you for showing us how it could be abused if staff were not keeping track of it and had not considered how it could be abused.

You are welcome. Just trying to throw out ideas/possibilities you may not have considered. I realize that may be impossible, but, just trying.

We've been working on this for five months.  I understand being fearful of players screwing everything up, but that is only one factor to consider when adding something new to the game.  We are willing to see how players handle the situation before restricting or changing it further than indicated.

Cool cool. If it isn't already in place I might recommend something that prevents levies, or makes it bad form for levies (you know what I mean) to actually request a "training day". Instead they might just be expected to "show up" when one is announced? Again, this may very well already be the case. Just thinking out loud.

I wouldn't want to play in the Legion and be constantly hounded by dudes trying to get their skillzorz for the day. I can see it driving me nuts. On the other hand, I would probably enjoy getting to set a training day, and training people, and then catching the ones who "skipped out" and hassling them about it.

[Jingo]

Allow legionaires to extort coin from levies.

[Knight of Knives]

I absolutely agree it SHOULD be viewed by the playerbase as a bare minimum gritty commoner almost "last resort" experience.

Now, based on how I've seen Tuluk work (or the playerbase for that matter) for the most part...do we really expect that to happen, or do we think it is going to be used as a city-wide patriotic sparring time unity exercise where everyone is there and happy to be serving as one for the Sun King?

I just have such a hard time visualizing this not becoming another exercise in that. It seems like that, but backed by documentation now.

I would say my status is wary, but open to the concept, because as a concept, I like it. I just don't want to see the playerbase take the concept and morph it into what I've seen a similar concept become in fairly recent history.

This is not going to be happy. Tribal levies are not going to be pleasant.

Pteryges, face paint, and torches.

You will be unprepared.

[Nyr]

I started to outline what went into the militia changes, but every time I thought I was done, I ended up going back a step to previous discussion about another change that affected it.  Many of the changes we've been implementing required implementation in series rather than in parallel.  Some things needed plot to drive them and others did not, but all were linked in some way to each other.  Maybe this will give insight into the work involved in changing "just one clan."

• Bard documentation worked on and completed in summer of 2012.  Major changes include actual docs for some lacking circles, arcs of focus, the playability of Bard/Masterbard PC roles, and relationships between the Circles and external employers.
• Brainstorming on what to do with governorship stuff/qynar/etc. and some of the seemingly impossible-to-change stuff in Tuluk due to its massive scale in summer of 2012.  Several ideas floated and ultimately unable to complete due to staffing changes.
• Plot development begins for HRPT and overall world changes resulting from it in October 2012.  This approaches more of the plot side of things rather than specific changes, though we knew at that point we were getting rid of both Orders and making changes to the Tuluki landscape.
  
• First mention of changes to the Legion documentation in March 2013, though it is a bullet point mentioned with other changes to Tuluk.
• Had to have the plot stuff (driven by animations/planning/coordination) happen in order to get to the point where we could do more stuff, as the same staff working on the plot stuff is the same staff working on the changes.
• Militia changes as a whole laid down in August 2013.  At this point a general structure was provided and proposed for discussion among staff.  Structure shows almost everything we've implemented.
• Review of shadow artists brought up officially in August 2013 as we begin to dig into the problems of the missing documentation.  As this is a change to a visible and non-clan-related system, we put it up for feedback in September 2013.  Massive amounts of feedback, almost 20 pages or so.  Wow.  We make adjustments and put it live in November 2013.
• Schedule updated for the Legions in August 2013, bringing it more in line with a more general structure used in a different military clan.
• Templarate shift in September 2013.  Uniform process has been an ongoing discussion by this point among staff and we have plenty of ideas and now seek out players for art assistance.  Nyr likes capes for some reason, probably because he played Assassin's Creed, but doesn't think it'll catch on as something that looks okay.  Still, the idea is proposed to the player artists.  Endure mountains of Incredibles jokes.  Still, the end result looks better than anticipated and we roll with that as the concept.
• Templarate documentation work proceeds apace, with some minute changes for the players so they can continue to play templars.
• Militia documentation discussion proceeds as well, we narrow down possibilities from "kill all nonhumans" to "maybe let some nonhumans still play."  Comparisons continue between both militaries to be sure that the changes made both make sense from a world perspective and also do not provide anything incredibly strange.  Balance issues considered, role opportunities laid out, general process for advancement laid out and perks considered as a whole.  Playability concerns arise and are discussed and ultimately decided on as a test for this clan.
• Rathustra proposes tribal levies idea officially in October 2013, though it is discussed earlier than that as a concept.  Discussion and ideas develop from that as we look at why the Arena situation did not work and why it was not appealing from a staff perspective.  This is also taken on as a sort of test situation and scenario for the city-state.
• Templarate documentation work goes on the boards in November 2013, compiling nearly 10,000 words of docs.  This affects their relationship to the Legions but the Legions side of docs are not completed yet.
• Uniforms built and in-game in February 2014.  Still working on some code-related crap with the uniforms and with certain NPC templars not liking wearing them codedly.  More updates to templar docs ongoing to bring things more in line with recent changes like Negean in March 2014.
• Docs in a written format but not posted to the militia by February 2014.  Discussed with templarate players about what we were planning to do, got some more feedback from a templar PC perspective, made adjustments.
• Deciding where to put the damn barracks.  Found a spot.  You'll see it in-game.
• Docs go live for militia players and the larger changes made public for player review March 2014.

[Nyr]

Allow legionaires to extort coin from levies.

"allow"

heh.

[number13]

Awesome idea. I love it.

[Zoan]

I have the impression the Levies is the new Undertuluk.

[Kismetic]

"Welcome my happy good friends. We will all hold hands and worship the Sun King together and it will be glorious and we can dance and sing and train together for the betterment of each other, my brothers and sisters, and our happy family called Tuluk."

I led that little cheer group.  What you don't understand, and would never get, is that I wanted to train you all to lead you to your deaths down a kryl nest.  Nothing else mattered, but revenge.  Tuluk is never what you think it is on the surface, it is always the Sun King this and that, and that's a powerful weapon if you're willing to exploit it.

Nyr has since told me that the way I used the Arena was not how it was intended to be used.  The concept of the levies makes this much more formalized and controlled.  I dig it!

I hope it brings out the grit of Tuluk, too.  If you've ever been in the Warrens, well, it's not a pretty, shiny, happy place.  A good majority of the virtual population of the levies will be people from the Warrens who can't hack it anywhere else, and need a meal.  I hope that gets represented in the player population in some sense.

[Harmless]

Happy hugfest happy hugfest. That's aaaall that tuluk is ::eyeroll::

[Kismetic]

Happy hugfest happy hugfest. That's aaaall that tuluk is

Let's not have this thread devolve into that.  Anyone who has played in Tuluk long enough knows that's not true.  I don't have more to add other than I'm interested to see how this plays out in the game.

Edit to add:   Cool concept, Rathustra.  Totally fraaaaiche

[Desertman]

Please note, if the deception, grit, and exploitation are so well hidden and so subtle in Tuluk that nobody ever even realizes there is any exploitation, grit, or deception....well...it really defeats the purpose. To everyone except the two pc's "in the know", it will always seem like happy hand holding time for the Sun King, that is all their play will ever reflect, and to the majority of the playerbase that is how Tuluk will be perceived.

I understand, "Most of you will never get how devious that was."....and that may just be the problem. Most people never will get how devious that was....so most people will always remember it as a happy patriotic fun time tea party of hand holding and zealotry for the betterment and prosperity of the people as a whole.

I'm looking forward to the new docs and levies bringing some of the reality that is the grit of Tuluk to the surface. I think this is going to go a long way in curbing the idea that Tuluk is "softer" than Allanak. They will have their own standing force of dirty commoner meat shields intended for just that purpose. I think that is glorious. I would love to be in charge of training these people and setting the "bar" for how they should be treated and perceived.  

[Kismetic]

I'm sorry, sir, but I doubt you played a Tuluki at that time.  Pretty much everyone was "in the know" except the occasional turbo-button newblets who came to sparspar happy time, and THEY were the ones who got the Do It For Jesus treatment.  I don't wanna derail this thread into a discussion about Tuluk roleplay, though.  I do wholly agree that this will bring Tuluk "down to earth" for a good slice of the playerbase, and I hope people will come try it out.

Especially you.  You are the GDB champion for grit and gore.  Bring it along.

[Desertman]

I was playing a dirty grungy commoner. So I was of course ostracized by most everyone who would have been in the know sadly.

Dirty commoner in Tuluk doesn't attract much in the way of friends, especially the sort of friends who would be in the know I guess. That makes sense.

[Kismetic]

I was playing a dirty grungy commoner.

If you aren't a noble, you're a grungy commoner.  

My dude was head to toe in vicious, crippling acid scars.  Nobody who fights for that long stays pretty.  That was part of the fun, like the line from Fight Club, "I wanted to destroy something beautiful."  I get where you're coming from, as if you can't sit around in the Sanctuary, and you're not in a clan, you might miss some things.  That's part of what I tried to do with the Arena, but it ended up creating problems for staff.  That's why I think the levies are a perfect meeting ground.  I challenge you to play in the levies, now.  

[Lizzie]

I'm hoping this tribal levies thing will help chill out on the perception of happy-happy-joy-joy funland too. And I'm someone who has played fairly recently in Tuluk, who usually plays long-lived characters (longer than 2 RL months at a stretch), who plays usually around peak-time AND occasionally off-peak, and who usually, when clanned, gets stuck in lower-management positions. Yes, the happy happy was a facade. But even I didn't really get the point of the facade, because everyone was so busy being subtle, that no one was telling anyone what (if anything) was going on.

[Nyr]

Please note, if the deception, grit, and exploitation are so well hidden and so subtle in Tuluk that nobody ever even realizes there is any exploitation, grit, or deception....well...it really defeats the purpose. To everyone except the two pc's "in the know", it will always seem like happy hand holding time for the Sun King, that is all their play will ever reflect, and to the majority of the playerbase that is how Tuluk will be perceived.

You've accurately described what we have addressed and continue to address in Tuluk, though it also was nowhere near the levels of hyperbole you've suggested.  I encourage you to move past what you didn't like about it before and to also move past what you think its playerbase is like and instead focus on the now.

[Harmless]

Well said Nyr.

[Desertman]

Please note, if the deception, grit, and exploitation are so well hidden and so subtle in Tuluk that nobody ever even realizes there is any exploitation, grit, or deception....well...it really defeats the purpose. To everyone except the two pc's "in the know", it will always seem like happy hand holding time for the Sun King, that is all their play will ever reflect, and to the majority of the playerbase that is how Tuluk will be perceived.

You've accurately described what we have addressed and continue to address in Tuluk, though it also was nowhere near the levels of hyperbole you've suggested.  I encourage you to move past what you didn't like about it before and to also move past what you think its playerbase is like and instead focus on the now.

I'm right there with you. Looking forward to the changes. 

[Zoan]

Nyr, if you could make it that crime is free and open in the designated dirty Levies areas, it would make being in the Levies so much more entertaining. I have this impression that the Levies, yes, is where shiny-eyed patriots go to serve the Sun King for a spell, but I have a feeling if you're shiny-eyed and patriotic, you're probably doing a "stint" in the Legions.

No, the Levies is where you are if you screwed up BIG, and now you're atoning. You're not saying it, nobody's saying it, but you're all the worst kinds of people in Tuluk who now have a brand and will be rounded up to vanguard in the event of total war.

[Nyr]

The dangerous thing about threads like this

or repeated digs about a city-state's culture like this

"Welcome my happy good friends. We will all hold hands and worship the Sun King together and it will be glorious and we can dance and sing and train together for the betterment of each other, my brothers and sisters, and our happy family called Tuluk."

or this

Everyone holding hands singing songs in a sparring circle of patriotic city-wide unity (while sipping tea of course).

isn't that it's going to ruffle someone's feathers because they like something you don't like.  It isn't that it offends anyone or annoys them (even if it is annoying from time to time).  We had a freakin' hippy drum circle in Tuluk that poked fun at that idea at one point, it stands to reason it should be a joke at times.  The dangerous thing is that repeating it often enough might confuse some people (even you) into thinking that this is the way Tuluk is, especially when you throw it into a thread discussing the here and now, not the "what-has-been." 

Something good for all players to do (but especially those in Tuluk):  re-read the documentation.  Take a moment, sit down, and read the docs for Tuluk.  I don't care if you're a dyed-in-the-wool southern-loving player that will never set foot in Tuluk except to conquer it.  I don't care if you're a northern patriot that has been playing for years.  This city has changed in some significant (and yes, in some subtle) ways.  We have done what we can with the documentation to present a consistent view of the city-state.  We're open to areas of improvement.  We do what we can to animate to represent these changes.  However, the rest is in the hands of the players, whether in Tuluk or not.  That's part of the reason we've had templars and nobles (in some cases at least) on board with the docs changes first because we want them to understand the overall vision of Tuluk and encourage the good and discourage the bad.  You might think you don't need to read the docs because you have your idea of what Tuluk is like (whether you like it or no).  The biggest concern might be that you'll read a section you think you know and you'll gloss over it, even though there have been several changes, and you'll miss that.  Read it anyway.  Review the publicly available history page information and parse what has happened in Tuluk since the Battle of Tyn Dashra.  Ask questions.  Form new views of what Tuluk is like, come up with some real world analogies, help others understand your idea of what you see it like, and be prepared to be corrected if you're a bit off.

After you've done that, you can make the bunny hugging hippy drum circle tea sipping jokes.

[Zoan]

Fun Fact: You cannot write a paragraph about Tuluk without including the word "subtle", even if it's not directly referencing Tuluk.

[Nyr]

Fun Fact: You cannot write a paragraph about Tuluk without including the word "subtle", even if it's not directly referencing Tuluk.

true dat

[Desertman]

After you've done that, you can make the bunny hugging hippy drum circle tea sipping jokes.

Fine, fine. I promise, no more Tuluk jokes until I have put in another long lived PC there. I admit it has been a little while.

[Zoan]

Nyyyyyyyr, make the Levies a cesspool of crime and debauchery by turning off the crimcode~~~

[manonfire]

I miss Undertuluk.

[Barsook]

I miss Undertuluk.

[BleakOne]

I like the idea of meatshield Levies.

"Oh, the Kryl are playing up again? Soften them up with the Levies first, then send in the Legion as the killing blow."

[Rathustra]

Great to hear people are excited about the levies! A strong motivation behind the concept was helping to provide a location for lower working-class Tulukis to get involved with the city's wider politics. It also had some OOC motivators of providing a 'safety net' for new players in the same way that the Byn does in the south - without simply copying the situation in the south. On top of this, it will hopefully also provide a focus for PCs to meet and interact, helping to pin players to a common location. If lots of people are playing around the same places then people have a way to find interaction and interaction hopefully means you're not just playing solo.

[FreeRangeVestric]

Can a non-citizen join the levies?

[KankWhisperer]

Where would these people be on the tuluki cast structure chart?

[slvrmoontiger]

Where would these people be on the tuluki cast structure chart?

Good question, related question: Does the restructuring (so to speak) of the Legions change how they are on the caste structure?

[Rathustra]

Can a non-citizen join the levies?

Currently, because of recent events in Tuluk involving non-citizens and the wider war-footing of the two City-States, the levies, like the rest of Tuluk, is rather hostile to non-citizens. This could change in the future.

Where would these people be on the tuluki cast structure chart?

Members of the levy get the equivalent of a 'plus 0.5' to their social standing - a warrens-born labourer who serves will be considered more favourably than one that doesn't do his duty - but he wouldn't hold a candle to a well-dressed noble partisan. Similarly an elf in the levy is still an elf - he's just a more desirable sort of elf that knows their place.

Technically anyone of the common caste can join the levy. The actuality will likely be that those with associated with, say, a GMH can pay the levy tax (a sort of scutage) and reap the patriotic kudos without any actual effort (yay corruption!).

I can't comment on wider restructuring of the Legions and how that effects the caste chart as I've only been focusing on the levy.

[Twilight]

Now you've confused me.

Is a commoner required to either be in the levy or pay a levy tax?  That seems to be what was implied?

How you do "retire" from the levy?  I assume you put in a system so that folks didn't "retire" when it looked like death dealing action was on the horizon?

"Stint" in the Legion.  Is that go through the recruit phase, and then have some sort of contract time, as far as being Private for awhile?  Once you are out, can you come back for another "stint" for a time?

Would the .5 be additive?  So the well-dressed noble partisan that is/has been a member of the levy would have more social status than a different well-dressed noble partisan (with a same ssocial status noble)?  How about that vs someone who had a "stint" in the Legions?

Are the social status increases for levy and Legion permanent lifelong, or do they only apply while you are actively in the levy or Legion?

[Zoan]

How you do "retire" from the levy?  I assume you put in a system so that folks didn't "retire" when it looked like death dealing action was on the horizon?

Well it's easy. You just inform your nearest Templar and he or she takes you into the Pyramid for your exit interview.

[Ol 55]

Is a commoner required to either be in the levy or pay a levy tax?  That seems to be what was implied?

The levy tax is something imposed on organizations to contribute to supplies or funding.  It's also code for a bribe that can be paid to a templar in order to avoid levy duties or combat action.

How you do "retire" from the levy?  I assume you put in a system so that folks didn't "retire" when it looked like death dealing action was on the horizon?

You don't.  You're marked.  Dereliction of levy duties is a crime ...  Unless you can conjure up the necessary kickback.  It's entirely possible to gain patriotic status as a levy member, and never once show up for duty or fight a battle.  That's corruption, baby.

"Stint" in the Legion.  Is that go through the recruit phase, and then have some sort of contract time, as far as being Private for awhile?  Once you are out, can you come back for another "stint" for a time?

The Legions now hire Privates to contracts.  All leadership roles (Corporal and above) require a life oath.  If you left the Legion in good standing, it is possible to take time away and return for another contract.

Would the .5 be additive?  So the well-dressed noble partisan that is/has been a member of the levy would have more social status than a different well-dressed noble partisan (with a same social status noble)?  How about that vs someone who had a "stint" in the Legions?

Where you have two socially equal citizens, and one is a member of the levies, that one enjoys slightly higher status, and can call to that.  Service in the Legion grants a higher status than membership in the levies.

Are the social status increases for levy and Legion permanent lifelong, or do they only apply while you are actively in the levy or Legion?

This is the only question I don't know the answer to, although, I am going to guess that because both of these can and do often grant tattoos because of membership, then yes, as per Tuluki culture, you have a permanent showing of your patriotism.  You have a tattoo.

[BadSkeelz]

*snrk*

[BadSkeelz]

"Stint" in the Legion.  Is that go through the recruit phase, and then have some sort of contract time, as far as being Private for awhile?  Once you are out, can you come back for another "stint" for a time?

The Legions now hire Privates to contracts.  All leadership roles (Corporal and above) require a life oath.  If you left the Legion in good standing, it is possible to take time away and return for another contract.

This did catch my attention as being different from how I've seen other clans treat corporals: as semi-permanent 'senior privates.' What happens if a northern corporal gets demoted back to Private? Does their life oath become void?

[Ol 55]

This did catch my attention as being different from how I've seen other clans treat corporals: as semi-permanent 'senior privates.' What happens if a northern corporal gets demoted back to Private? Does their life oath become void?

Privates can swear life oaths, and the only way to rescind a life oath is through exile, death or completion of service (30 years).  The way I've seen most military clans in Arm treat rankings are that Corporals are the sort of NCO rank.  As to how I see the new ranks, for your edification:

Private


Corporal


Sergeant


Lieutenant


Captain


Recruit


Ok ...

Maybe this post was a little over the top.

[QuillDipper]

No, I think this is just about my favorite post on the site.

[Zoan]

Maaaaatttt Daaaaammmmon

[Rathustra]

Now you've confused me.

Is a commoner required to either be in the levy or pay a levy tax?  That seems to be what was implied?

How you do "retire" from the levy?  I assume you put in a system so that folks didn't "retire" when it looked like death dealing action was on the horizon?

"Stint" in the Legion.  Is that go through the recruit phase, and then have some sort of contract time, as far as being Private for awhile?  Once you are out, can you come back for another "stint" for a time?

Would the .5 be additive?  So the well-dressed noble partisan that is/has been a member of the levy would have more social status than a different well-dressed noble partisan (with a same ssocial status noble)?  How about that vs someone who had a "stint" in the Legions?

Are the social status increases for levy and Legion permanent lifelong, or do they only apply while you are actively in the levy or Legion?

No citizen is required to join the levy! But why wouldn't you offer up your service for the Sun King? Do you have something to hide? Perhaps an interrogation is in order.

During the run up to death-dealing action, an up-swell in patriotic fervor would no doubt lead to many individuals actually joining the levy!

But, I believe as with all things - if someone wished to end their patriotic duty, a Templar could release them, perhaps with some symbolic exchange of their service.

As for 'additive' increases to a person's social standing - its important not to get too tied down with the social standing chart as being a monolithic/unchanging thing - social standing is fluid and depends on lots of factors as well as the context of a given interaction where social standing is deemed important. Asking to codify every possible permutation of status, standing and bearing/respect is impossible. Everything we provide on the subject is to give you a guideline and show you how the virtual world will react. It's to help you make a Tuluki that recognizes the lay of social power in society. It's shorthand for the cultural norms of Tuluk.

So, while different factors - being well groomed/presentable, being a noble partisan, being ex-military - can be said to all bump a commoner's standing, these 'bonuses' are all tied to the virtual world: Good appearance is tied to the desirable status of being noble, noble partisanhood demonstrates trust, reliability and political association, military service represents duty, patriotism and indoctrination into the chief instrument of the Templarate.

[Nyr]

Can a non-citizen join the levies?

Given that Tuluk had to deal with spies in deep cover sabotaging things, I don't think they're really keen on non-citizens joining at this time.  That may change over time (it's actually a way we were considering for citizenship--service guarantees citizenship) but for now that's the way it is.

[Nyr]

Nyr, if you could make it that crime is free and open in the designated dirty Levies areas, it would make being in the Levies so much more entertaining. I have this impression that the Levies, yes, is where shiny-eyed patriots go to serve the Sun King for a spell, but I have a feeling if you're shiny-eyed and patriotic, you're probably doing a "stint" in the Legions.

No, the Levies is where you are if you screwed up BIG, and now you're atoning. You're not saying it, nobody's saying it, but you're all the worst kinds of people in Tuluk who now have a brand and will be rounded up to vanguard in the event of total war.

Atonement and screwing up badly are things we're going to cover soon.  The levies may (or may not) play some part in that.  See the previous post on how things end up getting linked together in series--sometimes we have to lay ground work for future stuff.

[Harmless]

I can't wait until I have a PC that can be in the levies or at least pay the levy tax. Can't say that enough.

[JustAnotherGuy]

After reading more and more of this, I'll be honestly, I'm interested.  I've always wanted to see more ways for interaction within Tuluk besides the Sanctuary.  With the lower population it makes it hard to find interaction when you're just a dirty commoner with very little to no social status.  My dirty, grubby hunter would never be found in the Sanctuary in more cases, or my grungy, foul mouthed sell sword, would like more often likely get kicked out of the Sanc, fits right in with the Levy's and he can even say, "Hey, I'm with the levies, you should hire me." Is likely to get more say over the other guy that isn't in a levy.

Very interesting concepts... we need more grit in Tuluk, but it doesn't mean we need to remove the subtle.

[Barsook]

After reading more and more of this, I'll be honestly, I'm interested.  I've always wanted to see more ways for interaction within Tuluk besides the Sanctuary.

I agree, I really haven't seen that much lower classness in Tuluk and it would be nice to see that.

[Inks]

How did I not notice this sooner? These are awesome changes. It actually makes me want to roll a Tuluki and give it a go.

[Nyr]

The levies will be going in live this weekend at this event.  If you were waiting to play there, that's a good time to start.

Does it need its own helpfile, or do you think the blurb on the Utep Sun Clan page works well enough?

[bcw81]

The levies will be going in live this weekend at this event.  If you were waiting to play there, that's a good time to start.

Does it need its own helpfile, or do you think the blurb on the Utep Sun Clan page works well enough?

I feel it's own helpfile would be useful, since this isn't actually a part of the Legions. (Well, formally.) Plus, there's a lot of stuff in it, and I'd hate to see it glossed over.

[The Lonely Hunter]

Steady access to crappy gruel and hot dirty water? Hell yeah! Not having to worry about where your next drink or meal comes from is a big deal.

[shadeoux]

Steady access to crappy gruel and hot dirty water? Hell yeah! Not having to worry about where your next drink or meal comes from is a big deal.

In Nak sure, but Tuluk... I'm personally not sold yet, but the idea behind it is interesting...