Roleplaying: Some Opportunities to Improve

[Nyr]

One of the suggestions in this particular forum is to have discussions about whether something is good RP.  To quote:

Discussions about whether or not something is good RP? Want to know how to emote something or handle it IC? All of that goes here.

There are some areas where there are opportunities to improve, whether it be in documentation or in RP'd behavior.  This thread is meant for that.  Perhaps these things can be added into a new FAQ or incorporated carefully into documentation where it makes sense, who knows?  If you have suggestions, please list them below.  If you have questions about boundaries for any particular kind of behavior, this thread is also for that, too.  One of the expectations and hopes of the Original Submission Forum is that we can promote dialogue about GOOD RP as a good example to follow, and provoke some good discussions about how to handle such things in the future--but the other side of the coin means understanding what works in the gameworld and why some things do not work so well.

There are three areas in particular that I wanted to go over as they are possibly the easiest ones to discuss publicly (they cover a wide range of areas and are not specific to any particular area of the game).  This thread may end up being limited; if we end up with enough to discuss apart from these three things then maybe it needs to be tossed into another thread with this kind of format assuming we have the time to do so.



Public Bashing of Authority

BAD:
Amos and Talia are in public in a tavern (picture a tavern in either city, really).  They are talking badly about the templarate.  
Snippets of hypothetical bad conversations:
1.  "Wow, I just don't see what their problem is, you didn't do anything wrong!"
2.  "And then he acted like a jerk and was a serious asshole to him, snubbing him the rest of the conversation."

WHY THIS IS BAD:
Badmouthing the templarate or even an individual templar in public is a no-no.  The templarate are simply better than you, by blood and by station.  You may THINK one of those two things--perhaps fleetingly, perhaps intensely--but communicating that publicly would be foolish.
Snippet 1:  You are not a templar.  You do not second-guess templars, and if you do, you certainly don't do it publicly and in a derogatory fashion.  "Wrong" is not objective, it is what the templarate says is wrong.  OOCly it may well be unfair and douchey; ICly that has no bearing whatsoever.  You know the rules of the game.
Snippet 2:  This reeks of drama for the sake of drama, but again, see the above.  You are NOT a templar.  You do NOT question your betters in public.  Whatever "he" did was probably deserving of being snubbed by a templar.

Where is this in the documentation?
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Roleplaying
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Noble

I do not see something for templars.  Do we need to add that?  Anyway, it seems that this is at least mentioned in a couple of places, though it is very basic.

PROPER RESPONSE TO BAD BEHAVIOR:
In both cases it should result in serious sanction by the powers that be--if not death--and it would be totally justified.  "But Nyr, wasting my PC because I got snippy about a templar to other people sounds like overkill!"  If you are defying the norms of the gameworld, flaunting your deviation from the cultural documentation publicly, the only recourse is harsh punishment to ensure that it is not repeated by your character--or anyone else.

HOW TO IMPROVE:
Don't badmouth templars in public.  Your character simply wouldn't do that unless they'd had a psychotic break.  If that is the case, please plan out an RPT with staff so that we may have the powers that be animated to handle your character appropriately when that occurs.  Privately, this is another matter.  Your character should still understand that if he or she is reported ICly to the powers that be, that is going to be difficult to explain and it puts them in a tough IC position.  Such things are or can be considered treason.



Racism and Prejudice in Zalanthas

BAD:
Amos believes in equal rights for elves, humans, dwarves, etc.

WHY THIS IS BAD:
Prejudice exists in Zalanthas, both overtly and in subtle ways.  No one should truly have this opinion in this kind of game.  It does not add anything refreshing.  It is not a nice departure from the usual tropes.  It is simply bad roleplay.

Where is this in the documentation?
Surprisingly, I'm having trouble locating this.  There are mentions of prejudice in a few docs:

http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Half-Elf%20Roleplay
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Tuluki%20Social%20Hierarchy

but nothing on racism or prejudice in general.  Perhaps we need such a document.

PROPER RESPONSE TO BAD BEHAVIOR:
There's not much of one for this.  It simply shouldn't occur in this gameworld.

HOW TO IMPROVE:
Your character is always (at least a little) prejudiced against other races in some fashion.  Your character doesn't necessarily have to have such racist beliefs equally, but they should have them.  Is Amos a human?  Ok.  Does Amos like elves?  This is a bit odd.  Does Amos want to have sex with elves?  This is beyond odd and now is quite an aberration.  Does Amos want to be mates with an elf (as in have sex with the elf and start a family)?  This is probably too much and should not occur; while some breeds are NOT the product of rape, your PC should not be the exception to trying to make that happen.  Does Amos like dwarves?  This is a bit odd.  Does Amos want to have sex with dwarves?  This is beyond odd and is now an aberration, and in fact, should occur far less often than consensual human-elf sex (which itself should be an aberration that should happen very rarely). 

Furthermore, equal rights and democracy do not have a place in Zalanthas, but I think that the latter is properly represented in most documentation.



Skills vs. Roleplay

BAD:
A few scenarios below.
1.  Amos and Talia spar for hours on end.
2.  Any opportunity to increase skill is sought by Amos.  No matter how harebrained, no matter how unrealistic, no matter how silly it seems, this is what Amos pursues.  Heck, he sneaks out of the city sometimes just to go kill stuff, or sneaks into the 'rinth because he is bored and wants to kill stuff.
3.  Skilling up is sought after more than actual roleplay towards any end that might require those skills to be used.

WHY THIS IS BAD:
This is a roleplay-enforced game.  All of these are not cool.

Where is this in the documentation?
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Roleplaying
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/FAQ_9
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Rules

PROPER RESPONSE TO BAD BEHAVIOR:
Report this to staff if it is seen.  Staff will handle it.  This should not be occurring.

HOW TO IMPROVE:
Scenario 1:  Take breaks.  Do some roleplay besides constantly worrying about your skill levels.  Even if you aren't, you look like you are.
Scenario 2:  Stop worrying so much about your skills.  Period.  This is a roleplaying game.  "I'm bored" is an OOC player feeling, "I want to go kill some people" is the IC result, and staff label that as poor roleplay and bad player judgment.  Stop playing the character as though it is a bunch of skills as a means to an end, and start playing the character as a person.  It is possible to take the IC pursuit of skills too far, to the point where your actions (even if you have some kind of RP justification) look entirely motivated by OOC reasons ("I need more skill").
Scenario 3:  This is a roleplay-enforced game.  If you wish to spend your time skilling up your character in private (or unrealistically in any number of ways) with only scant opportunities to actually apply those skills appropriately...your time may be better served elsewhere.



This is meant to help players new and old alike.  Please do not flame.  If you go off on a rant, your post may be shoved off to moderation and you may be told to chill out.

[Harmless]

fyi, based on the last half year of my playing this game, I think that the mud has done extremely well in maintaining all of those three, in general. If i were to hand out a kudos every time someone correctly was racist towards a half-elf or something, or showed the right mindset towards a templar, or handled sparring and training maturely, then I would REALLY have to be handing out more than a dozen kudos'.

So, just my two sids. Keep it up, everyone.

[Patuk]

I think I'd like seeing the proposed help racism file, actually. It'd be very easy referring to it in case of someone acting oddly in an evidently OOC-motivated manner.

[racurtne]

I agree with Patuk. It seems that sometimes newer players have issues with the racism thing. It's rare, but I've definitely seen it. Having a dedicated document that is referenced in the introductory information would be ideal.

[Nyr]

I agree with Patuk. It seems that sometimes newer players have issues with the racism thing. It's rare, but I've definitely seen it. Having a dedicated document that is referenced in the introductory information would be ideal.

Yep, this is one of the things we reviewed when going over this kind of thing.  If it is behavior that is not desired, is there something that points it out?  It turns out that there is, but not quite in the places one would expect.  It seems to be something we would all expect to be there (why not?) yet when searching for it, it doesn't come up under the expected search terms like "racism" or "prejudice".

[Patuk]

It seems like an elegant way to make functioning in the game a little easier, yes. I don't think adding more help documents takes especially much effort - hell, I'll volunteer to write one myself if staff workload is especially high atm. Typing >ooc help racism certainly is easier than trying to explain how getting angry over insulting a dwarf over his race's position is inappropriate.

[whitt]

Furthermore, equal rights and democracy do not have a place in Zalanthas, but I think that the latter is properly represented in most documentation.

What about in a place like the Byn?  There's still an undercurrent of the racism to be sure, but what of the "they paid their three sid, just like you.  Deal." attitude?  I find it a fantastic boundary to run along (and skirt occasionally) especially in cases where another race or a Northie vs Southie might put in a position of authority.

[slvrmoontiger]

My PCs are usually racist. In fact in one case I remember a PC of mine got completely pissed off with someone that was snuggling up to an elf saying things like "Oh they aren't so bad." or "Not all of them steal." I should have put in a player complaint and sometimes I do, because for a human to do this is completely unacceptable according to existing documentation... Yes ALL sharps steal it says so in the documentation.

I've had other times when I'd put some people of non-human races above certain ones that are human (or look human anyways) because those particular people acted lower than the non-human's my character was around. I think every case needs to have its own feel. I go with what's right with the given situation. If that's crappy RPing I'm sorry and maybe I get dinged for it.

*raises his hand sheepishly* Yes, I've had characters that have talked ill of certain templars in public. That was a huge mistake and they never should have. I regret those cases a lot.

[QuillDipper]

I do have a question about Racism, since I'm not quite familiar with how to react. I understand that elves and breeds are basically trash in clothes (hopefully), but how should a human PC, especially one who considers themselves better than most on the social ladder, treat dwarves? Should I be calling every one stump? Are they above elves but below X?

For that matter, when it comes to (human) elementalists in Allanak, where do they rest socially? Are they below other races, above them, or on the same level?

[Patuk]

Also, in regard to the whole templar thing..

I think I'd like to point out that in both cities, people are likely going to be immensely scared and fearful of templars, and that said fear is going to be coupled with hate in many cases, too.

Downtalking the templarate in public is dumb, certainly, but I also notice that many characters don't seem to mind templars in general at all, and while there may be good reasons for all of those cases, and I certainly won't look down on it.. I still think most of the common populace would view templars as crazily scary and terrifying.

I do have a question about Racism, since I'm not quite familiar with how to react. I understand that elves and breeds are basically trash in clothes (hopefully), but how should a human PC, especially one who considers themselves better than most on the social ladder, treat dwarves? Should I be calling every one stump? Are they above elves but below X?

For that matter, when it comes to elementalists in Allanak, where do they rest socially? Are they below other races, above them, or on the same level?

Treat dwarves as you might treat black people around ~1900 in America. No longer insitutionally and permanently enslaved, but below everyone everywhere in society and people to look down upon for sure.

Also, 65% of them still are enslaved. Free dwarves are, population-wise, an anomaly.

[Harmless]

the dwarves and elves question quilldipper had can be answered by targeting the specific sterotypes and biases that humans would have to each.

for elves, elves are tribal, familial, thieving. Dwarves are narrow-minded, rigid, unpredictable, and sometimes dangerous.

if your character is afraid for their safety more often than for their wealth, then maybe that character would be afraid of dwarves because you never know what bizarre ideas they have in their alien minds.

if, on the other hand, your character isn't afraid of what a dwarf can do, then they'd probably be fine with dwarves, but reluctant to trust them with a task that should probably be better left for a human.

[slvrmoontiger]

Also, 65% of them still are enslaved. Free dwarves are, population-wise, an anomaly.

Can you state where you got this from? From reading in the dwarf race and dwarf roleplay files I see nothing stating that most of them are slaves and its a rarity to find free ones. I'm just looking for the point of reference.

Thank You

[Patuk]

Also, 65% of them still are enslaved. Free dwarves are, population-wise, an anomaly.

Can you state where you got this from? From reading in the dwarf race and dwarf roleplay files I see nothing stating that most of them are slaves and its a rarity to find free ones. I'm just looking for the point of reference.

Thank You

I should bookmark this thing with how often I seem to post it. Lessee.

Tuluk (350,000)
219,000 humans (50% are slaves) (62.6% of total)
108,500 elves (10% are slaves) (31% of Total)
3,500 dwarves (65% are slaves) (1% of Total)
3,500 half-giants (80% are slaves) (1% of Total)
7,000 half-elves (40% are slaves) (2% of total)
1,500 muls (98% are slaves) (0.4% of total)
7,000 unknown/other/mutant (25% are slaves) (2% of Total)


Allanak (481,880)
310,000 humans (50% are slaves) (150,000 free) (64.3% of total)
150,000 elves (10% are slaves) (135,500 free) (31.1% of total)
7,500 dwarves (65% are slaves) (2,600 free) (1.8% of total)
3,800 half-giants (20% are slaves) (3,150 free) (0.8% of total)
5,800 half-elves (40% are slaves) (3,400 free) (1.3% of total)
1980 muls (99% are slaves) (18 free) (0.4% of total)
2,800 unknown/other/mutant (40% are slaves) (1,400 free) (~0.6% of total)

Link: http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,38969.msg535915.html#msg535915

There you go. Granted, the percentage isn't too much higher than with humans, but it's still telling. The history docs also imply for all dwarves having been slaves, hence my '1900 black americans' comment.

[Nyr]

Furthermore, equal rights and democracy do not have a place in Zalanthas, but I think that the latter is properly represented in most documentation.

What about in a place like the Byn?  There's still an undercurrent of the racism to be sure, but what of the "they paid their three sid, just like you.  Deal." attitude?  I find it a fantastic boundary to run along (and skirt occasionally) especially in cases where another race or a Northie vs Southie might put in a position of authority.

Provided that undercurrent of racism is still present, it's fine.  If the subhuman is on the same level of rank as you, it's still pretty easy to treat them worse than you would otherwise, even if you "have" to work together with them.  If they're your boss, the prejudice still exists but might present itself in a different fashion.  You might hate your human Byn Sarge because they're an asshole and over time they might prove themselves to be a trustworthy and reasonable leader, and sometimes you still might think they are (or call them) an asshole.  On the other hand, you might hate your elven Byn Sarge because they're an asshole, true...but also, they're an elf.  They are measured against a much higher bar.  The human asshole boss is going to have to be a tremendous asshole to be a bigger asshole than an elven asshole boss.

Even if they earn respect from you over time, that respect may always be ended with "for an elf."  If you're familiar with the "Almost Politically Correct Redneck" meme, that's more along the lines of how a typical Zalanthan would address the issue if forced to acknowledge that they have some respect or admiration for a nonhuman.

He's a great Sergeant, for an elf. 
She's not that big of an asshole, for an elf.   

That doesn't necessarily mean your character should have a personal change of heart towards all elves.  It would probably indicate to your character that this one elf proved that despite their inherent racial flaws, they turned out to not be as big of a fuckup as you would've expected, given that they were an elf.

[Cutthroat]

It helps that insulting the templarate, calling for equal treatment of races or being involved with different races romantically, or killing people randomly instantly grants a bunch of people a valid reason to kill you, even to those that don't necessarily need a reason at all. That's probably why stuff like this isn't much of a problem, or when it is, it gets solved so quickly that barely anyone notices.

It definitely would help to see a "help racism" documentation that would describe how people not of any given race would typically see members of that race, and state clearly that significant deviation from this would be considered abnormal.

[Nyr]

I do have a question about Racism, since I'm not quite familiar with how to react. I understand that elves and breeds are basically trash in clothes (hopefully), but how should a human PC, especially one who considers themselves better than most on the social ladder, treat dwarves? Should I be calling every one stump? Are they above elves but below X?

Your character might think dwarves are worse than elves or vice versa.  I do not think there is a better or worse case here, though it is worth pointing out that there it is probably more difficult to come up with IC reasons to be prejudiced against dwarves.  They aren't shifty bastards as a race.  They aren't out to steal your stuff.  However, they are weird as a race.  They are short.  They are hairless.  They're slave stock, and they are less numerous by far than your human brethren.  They can be absolutely stubborn about the weirdest things.  Apparently they're also part of some process that can make muls, which have the potential to be unstable and dangerous killing machines.  Your character might think dwarves aren't as bad as elves since you run into more elves and they're worse "as a whole," but they're still dwarves.

As for those population figures, maybe that should be codified in documentation somewhere instead of on the GDB.  I'll make a note of that.  It may be that the numbers are off.  I know it has been used as a general reference but I would not read too closely into each part of it.

For that matter, when it comes to (human) elementalists in Allanak, where do they rest socially? Are they below other races, above them, or on the same level?

http://armageddon.org/help/view/Elementalist%20Culture

This gives insight into the elementalist culture.  They are a persecuted people--though they are feared.  As the doc says, they did not get the temple(s) built for their own benefit, nor was it built by them, nor was it built to attract them.  The temples are there to shove off the elementalists hopefully into their own area and get them out of the public eye--a classic case of prejudicial behavior.  As it mentions there, a dwarven Whiran has a focus, an elven Suk-Krathi is still sly/sneaky/etc...therefore, that racism there will still exist from outside.   A human elementalist compared to a dwarven elementalist might be treated better or worse.  It really depends on the characters and the situation in question.  When you mix in other factors like magick and the fear that is associated with magick, racism might take a back seat to that particular prejudice and fear.

[Rahnevyn]

By the way, the "hating on the templarate" example above goes just as well for the nobility, too. Don't expect -- or give -- a lot of sympathy to open complaints that Lady Oash or Chosen Lord Dasari was mean to you in public, or refused to give your friend a job, or such and such. Nobles and templars are allowed to do that, and all commoners understand it.

[Patuk]

By the way, the "hating on the templarate" example above goes just as well for the nobility, too. Don't expect -- or give -- a lot of sympathy to open complaints that Lady Oash or Chosen Lord Dasari was mean to you in public, or refused to give your friend a job, or such and such. Nobles and templars are allowed to do that, and all commoners understand it.

Mmr. Whereas I'll agree on this specific example, I'm also of the opinion that the general nobility is there to be high and mighty without being as feared as the templarate is. Nobles don't torture your friends to death publicly, nor do they leave a swathe of gone people behind wherever they show up, whilst also simultaneously employing a large deal of the workforce and being involved in projects and events that help out the common man in a tangible manner. In Tuluk especially, I'd say the nobility is less feared than the templarate is.

[ShaLeah]

By the way, the "hating on the templarate" example above goes just as well for the nobility, too. Don't expect -- or give -- a lot of sympathy to open complaints that Lady Oash or Chosen Lord Dasari was mean to you in public, or refused to give your friend a job, or such and such. Nobles and templars are allowed to do that, and all commoners understand it.

Mmr. Whereas I'll agree on this specific example, I'm also of the opinion that the general nobility is there to be high and mighty without being as feared as the templarate is. Nobles don't torture your friends to death publicly, nor do they leave a swathe of gone people behind wherever they show up, whilst also simultaneously employing a large deal of the workforce and being involved in projects and events that help out the common man in a tangible manner. In Tuluk especially, I'd say the nobility is less feared than the templarate is.

This I disagree with. I'd say nobles, who often bribe said Templars, would be feared too because you just KNOW if you step out of line the same fate will befall you.

Anyone smart anyway.

[Patuk]

By the way, the "hating on the templarate" example above goes just as well for the nobility, too. Don't expect -- or give -- a lot of sympathy to open complaints that Lady Oash or Chosen Lord Dasari was mean to you in public, or refused to give your friend a job, or such and such. Nobles and templars are allowed to do that, and all commoners understand it.

Mmr. Whereas I'll agree on this specific example, I'm also of the opinion that the general nobility is there to be high and mighty without being as feared as the templarate is. Nobles don't torture your friends to death publicly, nor do they leave a swathe of gone people behind wherever they show up, whilst also simultaneously employing a large deal of the workforce and being involved in projects and events that help out the common man in a tangible manner. In Tuluk especially, I'd say the nobility is less feared than the templarate is.

This I disagree with. I'd say nobles, who often bribe said Templars, would be feared too because you just KNOW if you step out of line the same fate will befall you.

Anyone smart anyway.

This is certainly true, but 'less feared' is different from 'not feared.' In Tuluk, a templar showing up someplace or singling someone out for conversation means a death sentence. In Allanak, the templarate tortures people, from the petty criminals to the simply unfortunate, all day, every day, in the very centre of town. The nobility simply does no such thing. It's true that making an enemy of one means a death sentence, but they are much less scary and malevolent-seeming than the templarate is.

[Rahnevyn]

Whether or not nobles should be "less feared" could be debated, and is at least partly up to who the particular noble is, but I didn't really intend to go there. My only point was to supplement Nyr's points about open criticism and derision of the templarate generally being bad; the same applies to the nobility in both cities. If you're a noble in Allanak yourself, you can probably get away with publicly calling another noble a twat. If you're a noble in Tuluk, you could get away with it as well, though you'd maybe be seen as crass and unsubtle and see some social penalties depending on your remarks. If you're a commoner in either city, no matter who you are, openly speaking out against your betters is something you'd be lucky not to be killed over.

[KankWhisperer]

There are still room for shades of grey I think. Breeds and dwarfs may annoy a character in particular organizations that allow non humans. But they are still one of you. Even if you treat your non human murder machines worse than your human ones, no grebber better fuck with them human or not.

Sometimes I find it hard to find the time to be racist against my minions unless their racial quirks are causing issues. I tend to be more racist in the hiring process than day to day.

[ShaLeah]

There are still room for shades of grey I think. Breeds and dwarfs may annoy a character in particular organizations that allow non humans. But they are still one of you. Even if you treat your non human murder machines worse than your human ones, no grebber better fuck with them human or not.

Sometimes I find it hard to find the time to be racist against my minions unless their racial quirks are causing issues. I tend to be more racist in the hiring process than day to day.

I think that's the hardest form of roleplay, for leaders of clans that allow for those things to be part of them, I however don't agree that they are "one of you". They're not until they are lifesworn and proven to the organization, that trumps the need to have to be proven to whoever leader is in charge at the time, you know?

I don't think leaders should be buddies with their minions, there should always be a healthy level of caution, respect and even fear.   I've seen human leaders who do the above, they treat their human minions differently than they do their meatshield counterparts. Open disdain, beating the fuck out of them, giving them the shit jobs, cheering for the humans in spars, verbally degrading... that's what I like to see to be honest. Heh.  That's exactly how it should be until that point in time where the lessers swear their lives. That is their highest possible level ever socially but guess what, there's always gonna be someone above them and that life swearing isn't gonna mean shit to people outside those organizations in a lot of cases.   You can be the Byn/Kurac sergeant that hates lessers and for the sake of no discord amongst the ranks you keep your thoughts to yourself because you want that annoying walking elf to have your back when it comes down to it, or you can be the abusive shit that constantly has your boot on that stumps back when it cleans the latrines but, either way, if you got "Zalanthan jungle fever" and have the hots for that elf, you still wouldn't openly take it as a mate, even if the organization accepts them. You'll always lose the respect of those elitist humans and that's how it should be.

I give kudos to all you mingling leaders. I don't know if I could oocly find a medium.

[RogueGunslinger]

There are still room for shades of grey I think. Breeds and dwarfs may annoy a character in particular organizations that allow non humans. But they are still one of you.

I disagree somewhat. When you're ina clan that doesn't accept other races and lower classes you have no chance to show of that racial interaction, becuase you hardly ever run into those characters in a professional setting.

But when you have a clan like the Byn, where all those sorts mingle. That is the most appropriate time/place for conflict. I'm with Shal. I love this sort of roleplay and see it disregarded all too much. Even if it's a human runner back-talking to an elf sergeant. Is the Human Runner out of line? Yes, and he'll probably be punished. Is his roleplay out of line? Fuck no, that's a shining example of how to stir up some fun.

[Desertman]

if you got "Zalanthan jungle fever" and have the hots for that elf

Just chiming in to say if I didn't love my current sig so much, this would be in there. Laughed so hard.