On public sparring arenas.

[Nyr]

I im aganst that 2 bc my chars wud no lunger b the most powrefull lulz

I'm 4 it sos I can skillmax without any repucussion and beat the noobz lulz

^
Equally retarded, useless comments.

gortok>raptor>gith>dujat>ggwp

Edit: Seriously. Punish the people that abuse the system. Not the people that enjoy or benefit from it.

We did, by closing the Arena for endless, no-strings-attached sparring.  THAT was the abuse of the system.  The system was intended to do x (be used for Arena events), people were doing y with it (wow much spar very public no obligation).  I don't care if you were using it and roleplaying your heart out, we did not ever intend for there to be a place for public sparring.  You want to get good sparring against other people, join a clan that has a place where you can do such things.  I understand that people believe the interaction was good and that is being taken into account for future opportunities, but as of the time of this writing, we are heavily against any system or location that people can just spar together in safety with no additional obligations or strings attached to it.

There may be areas where we've changed our minds over time (like having a bar in the Arena), but this isn't something where we changed our minds.  Players took a system intended for one thing that developed into something else.  As Kismetic says, perhaps it was well-managed at one point and then devolved into crap.  Who knows?  Even if well-managed, that was not the intended result; when it started seeing greater abuse, we started hearing about it.

[Qzzrbl]

I'd dig a public sparring area-- provided it wasn't totally free and wasn't open 24/7 and "accidents" were shrugged off and looked at as a "damn shame".

[ShaLeah]

I'd dig a public sparring area-- provided it wasn't totally free and wasn't open 24/7 and "accidents" were shrugged off and looked at as a "damn shame".

New merchant house idea!  Make it happen!

[Twilight]

There may be areas where we've changed our minds over time (like having a bar in the Arena), but this isn't something where we changed our minds. 

If you are talking about the Arena specifically, correct.  If you are talking about a public sparring area in Tuluk, incorrect.

In the Crater, there was a bar.  I forget what its name was.  It had a single room that you had to pay 50? sid to get past the guard.  The Pit?  I can't remember, maybe that was the room, maybe that was the bar.  Anyways, both people would pay the fee, go into the room, and it was a public sparring room.  I seem to remember in the adjacent room description betting going on about the participants, but I was never able to figure out any automated syntax (I think there was something but it was broken?).

It worked fairly well.  However, that was partly due to the fact that the only way to disengage from combat at the time was to flee, which meant at least one person would have to pay the fee again for there to be more sparring.

This was pre-Cataclysm, of course.

[Nyr]

There may be areas where we've changed our minds over time (like having a bar in the Arena), but this isn't something where we changed our minds. 

If you are talking about the Arena specifically, correct.  If you are talking about a public sparring area in Tuluk, incorrect.

In the Crater, there was a bar.  I forget what its name was.  It had a single room that you had to pay 50? sid to get past the guard.  The Pit?  I can't remember, maybe that was the room, maybe that was the bar.  Anyways, both people would pay the fee, go into the room, and it was a public sparring room.  I seem to remember in the adjacent room description betting going on about the participants, but I was never able to figure out any automated syntax (I think there was something but it was broken?).

It worked fairly well.  However, that was partly due to the fact that the only way to disengage from combat at the time was to flee, which meant at least one person would have to pay the fee again for there to be more sparring.

This was pre-Cataclysm, of course.

What I was referring to was this:

We built a bar at the Arena.  Since it was built it was obviously thought to be a good idea at the time.  This opinion has changed over time.
We implemented a training area at the Arena, intended for Arena events.  It was rarely (if ever) used for that purpose.  We did not change our minds on this, we just removed access because of the abuse.

What you've described there also provides some measure of deterrence to endless sparring with no strings attached, seeing as how there is access control and a cost involved.  Not quite the same thing as what was happening here.

[Twilight]

Noted.  I couldn't tell, from the way it was written, if it was referring to the bar, the Arena, or public sparring in general.

[Voular]

A public place where the peoples can learn how to fight and measure their strengths is counter-productive in any totalitarian regime. Who knows what sort of ideas and organisations could crop up in such places. Stop trying shimmy your OOC feelings and greed for higher skills into a setting which obviously doesn't support it. Bad twinker, bad!

[Kalai]

Edit: No longer comfortable saying what I posted. Summarized, was 'I'm not comfortable calling people twinks because they want to interact with others, and roleplay; it creates an OOCly hostile environment, and is more likely to alienate players than correct them.'

[Knight of Knives]

Why should these things be free? Your poor little independent hunter doesn't -deserve- a place to spar in the city to improve your ability to kill animals. Sorry.

• Nothing in Zalanthas is free.

You want the perks ? There are a few ways - partisanship, House service, Legions, (paying for your own private room) currently.

There might be an option to expand- the South has both the Tor Academy and the T'zai Byn, where you can spar your heart out for a year then bump off. The North might benefit from opening the A'Jinn Academy (although the # of people it would benefit would be small), but perhaps the option is to create something more mercenary like the latter options. There are definitely some prospects in game.

But yea, I agree, a free-open-spar-your-heart-out arena is not Tuluki in culture. And it's obviously abuseable.

[Delusion]

It's much more efficient to kill animals in order to become better at fighting and killing animals than it is to find people to interact and train with. So what Kalai said, really.

[RogueGunslinger]

I think the biggest difference difference in opinions here seems to be one of realism, and one of playability. Those for the idea seem to think it's a good because it brings people together and foster roleplay. The other side is saying from a roleplaying standpoint it doesn't make much sense for sparring gear and free area to be given to the masses.

That why I like my idea or reaching a sort of middle ground between these two difference with real arena fights that you don't have to go to a Templar to set up, and can be survivable if the crowd(or noble overruling) want to keep you alive(if nobody is around have it default to keeping you alive).

[TheWanderer]

Public Sparring:
If you'd like to go somewhere to train, aren't there clans for that? If you feel you're too codedly weak, maybe you should join the Byn and try the independent groups later - I mean, isn't that one of the purposes for joining the T'zai Byn? Becoming a skilled warrior? It really just seems like a way for other players to avoid the schedules of clans, and boost their skill levels without the shoveling of shit. As far as fostering role-play goes, I seriously doubt anything major will come from this. I imagine more awkward stares, awkward silence, a hothead who can't believe you didn't disengage in time, or that you didn't flee, and the occasional dwarf that asks everybody if they're up for ruff circle.

Opening the Arena:
Why? The rulers of a totalitarian society suddenly want their citizens running off into the arena killing each other on a whim? It just wouldn't make a lot of sense IC for Templars and whatnot to give free reign of the arena to all of Allanak's (or Tuluk, I guess) citizens. That's their domain, their punishment for criminals, and their entertainment for their citizens. They run the show. Grudges can be settled outside of the gates.

[RogueGunslinger]

Opening the Arena:
Why? The rulers of a totalitarian society suddenly want their citizens running off into the arena killing each other on a whim? It just wouldn't make a lot of sense IC for Templars and whatnot to give free reign of the arena to all of Allanak's (or Tuluk, I guess) citizens. That's their domain, their punishment for criminals, and their entertainment for their citizens. They run the show. Grudges can be settled outside of the gates.

This is sort of off topic now. But the reason I think it could work is because gladiator culture is not very well defined, but seems to be a very large part of the world. It doesn't just have to be grudge matches, but actual bet on fights that would net the house a ton of coins(As all gambling places do) while also offering glory and a small payout to the victor. Something like horse races but with blood and gore. Winners names would be broadcast through the city from that Gladiator platform in the Gaj.

Maybe I'm just in the mood for another round of gladiator fights though.

[TheWanderer]

Yeah, something along the lines of nightly arena matches might be cool. An announcement would be made by an npc, and then we'd have an hour during peak where the arena is open, and contestants can enter as they see fit -- well, I need not go into further detail, for the rest is pretty much what you posted above.

[Jingo]

I im aganst that 2 bc my chars wud no lunger b the most powrefull lulz

I'm 4 it sos I can skillmax without any repucussion and beat the noobz lulz

^
Equally retarded, useless comments.

gortok>raptor>gith>dujat>ggwp

Edit: Seriously. Punish the people that abuse the system. Not the people that enjoy or benefit from it.

We did, by closing the Arena for endless, no-strings-attached sparring.  THAT was the abuse of the system.  The system was intended to do x (be used for Arena events), people were doing y with it (wow much spar very public no obligation).  I don't care if you were using it and roleplaying your heart out, we did not ever intend for there to be a place for public sparring.  You want to get good sparring against other people, join a clan that has a place where you can do such things.  I understand that people believe the interaction was good and that is being taken into account for future opportunities, but as of the time of this writing, we are heavily against any system or location that people can just spar together in safety with no additional obligations or strings attached to it.

I don't know if this is a staff perspective thing or not but the system as it stands at this moment is still imminently abusable. Do you honestly think the twinks aren't just going to go back to the dwarf-warrior-hunter route? Raptors at day 2 and dujat at day 5? It's so fucking easy to do, it is hardly even cheating. It just takes some ooc knowledge of the game world.

But god help you if you're playing a city role. Public training is outlawed by the templarate.

The people that did not do the above were punished because the public arena actually flattened out the difference in power curves. Now apparently training spaces and partners are more valuable than water.

[BleakOne]

At least twinks who run out of the gates to spamhunt can (and generally do) end up falling victim to the various dangers of the outside world. In a public, free sparring in the city area there's little to no chance of death or serious harm.

[boog]

Why should these things be free? Your poor little independent hunter doesn't -deserve- a place to spar in the city to improve your ability to kill animals. Sorry.

• Nothing in Zalanthas is free.

You want the perks ? There are a few ways - partisanship, House service, Legions, (paying for your own private room) currently.

There might be an option to expand- the South has both the Tor Academy and the T'zai Byn, where you can spar your heart out for a year then bump off. The North might benefit from opening the A'Jinn Academy (although the # of people it would benefit would be small), but perhaps the option is to create something more mercenary like the latter options. There are definitely some prospects in game.

But yea, I agree, a free-open-spar-your-heart-out arena is not Tuluki in culture. And it's obviously abuseable.

*inserts other threads about people preferring to play indies*

[Cutthroat]

When it comes to the relative effectiveness a person who kills animals to train vs. a person who gets access to a sparring area to train, it really depends on what a player plays the game for. If a player plays to slaughter animals endlessly so that he can kill even bigger animals, and so on, that is the extent of his character. Congratulations, you can kill a dujat at day 5 and you made 10,000 coins from selling raptor teeth - well, no other characters really care about yours, and one unlucky run-in with a rogue magicker or mekillot or whatever ends everything.

Whereas joining a clan or indie group or otherwise arranging more "formal" training for your PC may result in slower skill gain, purely due to relying on other PCs being around to train with, at least the skill gain is over a longer period, comes with all the roleplay that comes with playing in the city. Your PC survives longer, is able to build more trust and do other things besides kill, kill, kill.

In that sense, I don't pity the people who are forced to use private sparring areas with fewer PCs, because they get more of a reward in the long run. They get to delve into the game for everything it's worth.

[Riev]

There may be areas where we've changed our minds over time (like having a bar in the Arena), but this isn't something where we changed our minds. 

If you are talking about the Arena specifically, correct.  If you are talking about a public sparring area in Tuluk, incorrect.

In the Crater, there was a bar.  I forget what its name was.  It had a single room that you had to pay 50? sid to get past the guard.  The Pit?  I can't remember, maybe that was the room, maybe that was the bar.  Anyways, both people would pay the fee, go into the room, and it was a public sparring room.  I seem to remember in the adjacent room description betting going on about the participants, but I was never able to figure out any automated syntax (I think there was something but it was broken?).

It worked fairly well.  However, that was partly due to the fact that the only way to disengage from combat at the time was to flee, which meant at least one person would have to pay the fee again for there to be more sparring.

This was pre-Cataclysm, of course.

I am interested in bringing back a similar idea for Tuluk but I need to iron out some details to make it more Tuluki and more likely to be picked up by staff.

[Scarecrow]

If you want to spar join a clan. If you're a hunter who wants to spar, join a GMH and spar with the other hunters. I don't personally see a need for public sparring areas.
And I have lost count of the number of 'raptor day 2, dujat day 5' hunters/warriors whatever who has simply died or gone missing some day. Those kind of reckless risks end up killing you before long. The most dangerous people are the ones who fight with measured caution, not razing the land every week or reboot to consume all in sight, but only hunting when they need to.
I'm not sure what RP the arena would foster by allowing sparring that you couldn't do just as easily in a clan. I think having a public sparring area doesn't do anything but hurt clans and give indies more advantages than they already have.

[Jingo]

While I generally like clans as an option, its not a one size fits all solution.

Seriously. If I play a warrior or an assassin that doesn't hunt and doesn't want to be a full time employee, what are my options? Because there SHOULD be options.

But at this point it's only apartment sparring or asking clan dudes if it's k to join them.

And I have lost count of the number of 'raptor day 2, dujat day 5' hunters/warriors whatever who has simply died or gone missing some day. Those kind of reckless risks end up killing you before long. The most dangerous people are the ones who fight with measured caution, not razing the land every week or reboot to consume all in sight, but only hunting when they need to.

In that sense, I don't pity the people who are forced to use private sparring areas with fewer PCs, because they get more of a reward in the long run. They get to delve into the game for everything it's worth.

While I do ultimately agree here. Getting your ass handed by you by not one, not two, but three generations of the same cookie cutter ranger indicates a problem.

And don't get me started by the players that just spam hunt for ten days and THEN come back to the city and delve into the game world and interact with other player base. Basically they get to have the best of both worlds and then lord their combat skills over the noobs.

[number13]

When you get down to it, it's a problem with the way the game works, isn't it?

Fighting beasties solo day in and day out shouldn't generally result in a mammothly strong hunter. It should result in a guy who is tore up, probably missing a limb or two, or at least stricken out of the hunting game by some severe injuries.  Hunting the most vicious of monsters should be the job of a the 5-day warrior -- he's been fully trained, but he's not yet had any body parts eaten.  Getting up to the 10 to 15 day mark, a hunter should be retiring to a more social game. He's teaching the younger hunters the tricks, directing them, playing a more social game, because his body's been punished beyond repair.

Instead, we get this odd situation where, as time goes on, increasingly the hunter doesn't need friends to help him bring down even the most vicious of creatures. It should be the other way around!  You want the older hunter around because he's good at tracking, knows all the best tricks for skinning and tanning, can give advice on how to best hunt. But you should want those newbie Byn runners in front of that grizzled vet doing the brunt of the work.  Even if the older hunter hasn't sustained crippling injuries, somehow, after a lifetime of fighting giant insects, he should be too valuable an asset to throw into the meat grinder.

[Cutthroat]

While I generally like clans as an option, its not a one size fits all solution.

Seriously. If I play a warrior or an assassin that doesn't hunt and doesn't want to be a full time employee, what are my options? Because there SHOULD be options.

But at this point it's only apartment sparring or asking clan dudes if it's k to join them.

And I have lost count of the number of 'raptor day 2, dujat day 5' hunters/warriors whatever who has simply died or gone missing some day. Those kind of reckless risks end up killing you before long. The most dangerous people are the ones who fight with measured caution, not razing the land every week or reboot to consume all in sight, but only hunting when they need to.

In that sense, I don't pity the people who are forced to use private sparring areas with fewer PCs, because they get more of a reward in the long run. They get to delve into the game for everything it's worth.

While I do ultimately agree here. Getting your ass handed by you by not one, not two, but three generations of the same cookie cutter ranger indicates a problem.

And don't get me started by the players that just spam hunt for ten days and THEN come back to the city and delve into the game world and interact with other player base. Basically they get to have the best of both worlds and then lord their combat skills over the noobs.

Not sure that I agree that there should be additional options at this point. Because when it comes to formal training, clans are all there is. The Byn is specifically billed as a place where novice fighters can learn about combat, so long as they pay their fee and work as a mercenary. Other clans offer training as a perk in exchange for the work the clan member would be doing. It's not only the only option available to PCs, but it's the only thing available to the virtual world full of virtual people as well.

To get a more special or unique or informal arrangement, you can work with expert PCs to teach you without having to spar in an apartment, or anywhere else really. There was that one thread where people claimed indies were hoarding coins - well, they can spread some of that to people in clans for lessons. Sadly, it sometimes feels like the playerbase is not interested in combat lessons without sparring, even when they are reasonably codedly effective.

With regards to people who train in unusual ways, I still maintain that PCs who go out of the city regularly die in droves. No matter how "safe" the outside is considered to be, it's not. If players take the huge risk of hunting alone, the game rewards them codedly but not a whole lot RP-wise. If they want to stop hunting and interact with the rest of the playerbase, one would at least hope they have a good IC reason for their character to do that.

[FantasyWriter]

If you want to spar join a clan. If you're a hunter who wants to spar, join a GMH and spar with the other hunters. I don't personally see a need for public sparring areas.
And I have lost count of the number of 'raptor day 2, dujat day 5' hunters/warriors whatever who has simply died or gone missing some day. Those kind of reckless risks end up killing you before long. The most dangerous people are the ones who fight with measured caution, not razing the land every week or reboot to consume all in sight, but only hunting when they need to.
I'm not sure what RP the arena would foster by allowing sparring that you couldn't do just as easily in a clan. I think having a public sparring area doesn't do anything but hurt clans and give indies more advantages than they already have.

This post (and a few others before it) totally ignores the idea of clanned character benefiting from a public sparring area. What are these elusive benefits, you might ask...
1) Recruiters can asses the strengths and weaknesses of potential employees.
2) Clan members can spar against people in other clans without the danger of going behind locked gates (never a wise decision by anyone).
3) Potential recruits can assess the skills of potential crew members before decided who they want to join up with.
4) A way to for clans and clanned individuals to fight for and attain status based on their martial abilities.
5) Bossman needs Agent Kadioof's right hand man taken out? Let's watch him for a few weeks and see what kind of fighting styles seem to work best against him to give us the best chance of doing it with minimal losses.
6) Indies stop sparring in apartments and interact with !Clanned characters, giving everyone more group RP time and maybe even making them decide to join up with crews that they enjoy hanging out with?
7) When Kuraci First Sergeant Mekbane decides to "encourage" Joe Nobody to or not to do something for them, Joe Nobody shits his pants because he's SEEN what Sergeant Mekbane can do to people when he doesn't like them.

Edit to add:
Merchant Sobadass Salarr tell's Jane Whocares to stop selling axes to anyone but Salarr or she might have an accident.  Jane also shits her pants (or skirt).
9) Provides a place for "accidents" to happen without leaving the gates or going behind apartment doors or clan gates.

[Cutthroat]

If you want to spar join a clan. If you're a hunter who wants to spar, join a GMH and spar with the other hunters. I don't personally see a need for public sparring areas.
And I have lost count of the number of 'raptor day 2, dujat day 5' hunters/warriors whatever who has simply died or gone missing some day. Those kind of reckless risks end up killing you before long. The most dangerous people are the ones who fight with measured caution, not razing the land every week or reboot to consume all in sight, but only hunting when they need to.
I'm not sure what RP the arena would foster by allowing sparring that you couldn't do just as easily in a clan. I think having a public sparring area doesn't do anything but hurt clans and give indies more advantages than they already have.

This post (and a few others before it) totally ignores the idea of clanned character benefiting from a public sparring area. What are these elusive benefits, you might ask...
1) Recruiters can asses the strengths and weaknesses of potential employees.
2) Clan members can spar against people in other clans without the danger of going behind locked gates (never a wise decision by anyone).
3) Potential recruits can assess the skills of potential crew members before decided who they want to join up with.
4) A way to for clans and clanned individuals to fight for and attain status based on their martial abilities.
5) Bossman needs Agent Kadioof's right hand man taken out? Let's watch him for a few weeks and see what kind of fighting styles seem to work best against him to give us the best chance of doing it with minimal losses.
6) Indies stop sparring in apartments and interact with !Clanned characters, giving everyone more group RP time and maybe even making them decide to join up with crews that they enjoy hanging out with?
7) When Kuraci First Sergeant Mekbane decides to "encourage" Joe Nobody to or not to do something for them, Joe Nobody shits his pants because he's SEEN what Sergeant Mekbane can do to people when he doesn't like them.

Edit to add:
Merchant Sobadass Salarr tell's Jane Whocares to stop selling axes to anyone but Salarr or she might have an accident.  Jane also shits her pants (or skirt).
9) Provides a place for "accidents" to happen without leaving the gates or going behind apartment doors or clan gates.

Absolutely, clanned characters can benefit from it. But in practice, when the sparring area in the arena was still open and being used, it was mostly used by indies to gain the advantage of having a safe place to train without any of the obligation of having to do something for it in return. It couldn't be used as a recruiting ground because it was impossible to sell training as a perk for joining. It was nice flavor for independent-and-partisan-minded Tuluk but it wreaked havoc on clans for the most part.

It's just so much easier from a gameplay standpoint to link formal training to clan membership, and I say that as someone who likes the idea of public sparring areas but is wary of the effects they tend to have on the balance of the playerbase within the game.

The problem many players have with a clan for training is that it is dependent on other PCs being around to train with. Training should be more steady in clans, almost as much as hunting. Replacing sparring dummies with sparring NPCs like Shadows of Isildur had, which would use the local fighting style or the clan's special fighting style and actually fight back, and have middling skills to allow skill growth to, say, journeyman ranks - would go a long way towards that. They can even disappear and re-appear at certain times like dummies do to prevent people from sparring them constantly (and also refresh their HP).