On public sparring arenas.

[Jingo]

So when are we getting the Tuluki arena back?

Seriously. It was a godsend for anyone who wanted to train without having to leave the walls and skill up on gortok. It allowed independents to work on skills and it allowed players in dead clans to work on them also. Not to mention it was great atmosphere for the city itself. Now characters that can't get out and poke mobs are left at a huge disadvantage.

Because honestly, most players already know that the difference in power curve for characters that just spar and characters that hunt is already fuckhuege.

Not to mention the loss of RP opportunities. Characters who wouldn't have anything to do with each other could spar in the arena and interact that way instead of with the samey tavern butt scratch emotes.

So really? What's up. It honestly baffles me that it was removed when it added so much to the game.

[boog]

I think both city states need it.

I think that not having a public place for people to 'spar' makes people more likely to do it in private, in apartments or small, enclosed areas, which seems silly to me, and like it causes RP to suffer.

But that's just my 2 sids.

[Fujikoma]

I agree, it would also be great for different clans to come together and see who's REALLY the toughest! In front of an audience, or not if no one's interested anyway.

[BadSkeelz]

I will support public sparring arenas, so long as they follow Thunderdome rules.

[Riev]

There are some IC reasons as to why the Tuluki Arena was closed to public sparring.


I have ideas on how to make more "publically available" options come about, but they would take some work, and might not really solve everyone's issue.


Though I will agree, any training to be done "with friends" ends up being "Well which rich, barely-there playtimes PC has the 2 apartments in the city with rooms designated as training areas?" and "Can I befriend them, and be one of 2 people on the lease to even use it as I need". Some clans work hard to say "If you are in <similar clan A, B, or C> then you can train with our people", but that is hard when you don't know them, and you don't have a place you can just... BE at, waiting for people. You have to contact, hope they're logged in, hope your contact is high enough, hope they're around to let you in.

[Harmless]

meh. this has been discussed on the GDB already, hasn't it?

[BleakOne]

I think the Tuluk Arena's public sparring thing was closed due to people just spam sparring each other and not actually using it for its intended purpose (as a way for citizens to prepare for a coming event).

I don't really see the need for public sparring areas though.

[ShaLeah]

I've always HATED that about Tuluk. It made no IC sense to me.

[RogueGunslinger]

I'm totally against it.

Allow for public Arena fights with real weapons and betting and I'm all fucking for it. Only rule? Mercy on, so the crowd can decide the fate of the fallen.

[Kismetic]

I im aganst that 2 bc my chars wud no lunger b the most powrefull lulz

[Kismetic]

On a more serious note, I loved the old Arena.  I trained many future warriors there, and taught anyone who would listen how to kill kryl (instead of being kryl food).  However difficult that character was to play for me, that was one of the few bright spots.  The community feel of it was so very Tuluki, IMO.

Allanak could use a more sinister counterpart, I'm sure.

[RogueGunslinger]

I im aganst that 2 bc my chars wud no lunger b the most powrefull lulz

I'm 4 it sos I can skillmax without any repucussion and beat the noobz lulz

^
Equally retarded, useless comments.

[Riev]

Can we -not- have the discussion devolve into "Well codedly speaking, it would be a benefit because..." and talk more about how the  idea could help foster and improve the roleplay and feel of the cities?

Seriously. You people are like 12 year old Youtube Commenters. Be better.

[Jingo]

I im aganst that 2 bc my chars wud no lunger b the most powrefull lulz

I'm 4 it sos I can skillmax without any repucussion and beat the noobz lulz

^
Equally retarded, useless comments.

gortok>raptor>gith>dujat>ggwp

Edit: Seriously. Punish the people that abuse the system. Not the people that enjoy or benefit from it.

[FreeRangeVestric]

Having going out and beating on animals as the only option for independents to train in combat skills seems infinitely more 'game-y' than a public place for sparring, in my humble opinion.

I see how people would probably abuse it, though...So, to compromise...Two men enter, one man leaves?

[boog]

In Tuluk, no.

I agree with K - it certainly fostered a sense of pride and community in Tuluk. I understand it was taken away for reasons, but hopefully there might be some incentive, some grass roots movement, to get something like that going again.

In Allanak? You could go balls to the wall there with an arena practice area.

[BleakOne]

I wouldn't mind if it happened on a particular day in the week, and the rest of the time was closed unless a Templar opened it for use. No spam sparring, everyone knows when to go, and spectators can come to the stands knowing a show is probably going to be on.

Still a bit leery about giving a benefit of being in a clan to independants so freely though.

[Kismetic]

Seriously. You people are like 12 year old Youtube Commenters. Be better.

Yeah, you're right.  It was more for Jingo's benefit, since we pal around like that, but RGS was welcome to join the fun.

I've made my earnest comments about a great experience I had organizing Arena events for a year and a half of my life, and I can say that while I was there, nobody fucked around.  We roleplayed and trained, and there was much character development, and when I was present, there was NEVER any lame spam sparring (and if you tried, we laughed at you).  I never heard what happened afterwards that led to its closing, but its certainly a shame.

[Daar]

I'm totally against it.

Allow for public Arena fights with real weapons and betting and I'm all fucking for it. Only rule? Mercy on, so the crowd can decide the fate of the fallen.

That sounds great.
Its astonishing, this isnt implemented 

[ShaLeah]

I'm totally against it.

Allow for public Arena fights with real weapons and betting and I'm all fucking for it. Only rule? Mercy on, so the crowd can decide the fate of the fallen.

That sounds great.
Its astonishing, this isnt implemented 

I fucking love that.

[BleakOne]

To the death Arena fights without needing a Templar to be around would be awesome, as long as both parties had to be willing since forcing someone into the Arena is a Templar's job.

Good way to settle grudges or prove who is better, ect.

[Saellyn]

Walk two rooms out of any city gate and commence your duel there. Bring your friends to watch.

What? It's what I do.

[Delusion]

Tuluk still has a big open area of scrub within the Scaien Wall, at least. I guess people could use that? Some enterprising sort might set up a tent or two when their PC is out and about and establish a school (of beating people).

Like FreeRangeVestric said, PCs training with each other is way less gamey than going out to hunt animals. It's probably slower, as far as the code is concerned, since you need to actually arrange things and so on rather than walking ten rooms until you see an animal to spar with hunt, since there's actual interaction with other PCs involved! But, see, there's actual interaction with other PCs involved. Which is generally a good thing.

[Patuk]

I will say that I dislike the general mindset behind the removal of the tuluki sparring arena. It pops up more often than just in this instance. 'The arena got abused by people who'd twink incessantly, therefor removal. Rape ended up being something getting people to be treated in ridiculously un-zalanthan ways and increased staff workload immensely, therefor removal.'

I just wish problems were dealt with in a way that didn't involve instant deletion. It's quite a shame.

[Cutthroat]

The training area was certainly flavorful when it was open, but even though it's closed it is still currently extremely easy to gain access to a sparring area. It's not as if you're forced to kill animals for skills just because the arena's closed off. If you want your PC to train with other people, associate with clans and patrons - most of them have proper training areas. This also has the added benefit of bringing people together for things besides training. But if your PC wants to remain independent, they're not going to have access to perks like organized training unless they arrange it with like-minded people in a more dangerous place.

Even considering that, it's still possible to set up a similar environment again ICly.

[Nyr]

I im aganst that 2 bc my chars wud no lunger b the most powrefull lulz

I'm 4 it sos I can skillmax without any repucussion and beat the noobz lulz

^
Equally retarded, useless comments.

gortok>raptor>gith>dujat>ggwp

Edit: Seriously. Punish the people that abuse the system. Not the people that enjoy or benefit from it.

We did, by closing the Arena for endless, no-strings-attached sparring.  THAT was the abuse of the system.  The system was intended to do x (be used for Arena events), people were doing y with it (wow much spar very public no obligation).  I don't care if you were using it and roleplaying your heart out, we did not ever intend for there to be a place for public sparring.  You want to get good sparring against other people, join a clan that has a place where you can do such things.  I understand that people believe the interaction was good and that is being taken into account for future opportunities, but as of the time of this writing, we are heavily against any system or location that people can just spar together in safety with no additional obligations or strings attached to it.

There may be areas where we've changed our minds over time (like having a bar in the Arena), but this isn't something where we changed our minds.  Players took a system intended for one thing that developed into something else.  As Kismetic says, perhaps it was well-managed at one point and then devolved into crap.  Who knows?  Even if well-managed, that was not the intended result; when it started seeing greater abuse, we started hearing about it.

[Qzzrbl]

I'd dig a public sparring area-- provided it wasn't totally free and wasn't open 24/7 and "accidents" were shrugged off and looked at as a "damn shame".

[ShaLeah]

I'd dig a public sparring area-- provided it wasn't totally free and wasn't open 24/7 and "accidents" were shrugged off and looked at as a "damn shame".

New merchant house idea!  Make it happen!

[Twilight]

There may be areas where we've changed our minds over time (like having a bar in the Arena), but this isn't something where we changed our minds. 

If you are talking about the Arena specifically, correct.  If you are talking about a public sparring area in Tuluk, incorrect.

In the Crater, there was a bar.  I forget what its name was.  It had a single room that you had to pay 50? sid to get past the guard.  The Pit?  I can't remember, maybe that was the room, maybe that was the bar.  Anyways, both people would pay the fee, go into the room, and it was a public sparring room.  I seem to remember in the adjacent room description betting going on about the participants, but I was never able to figure out any automated syntax (I think there was something but it was broken?).

It worked fairly well.  However, that was partly due to the fact that the only way to disengage from combat at the time was to flee, which meant at least one person would have to pay the fee again for there to be more sparring.

This was pre-Cataclysm, of course.

[Nyr]

There may be areas where we've changed our minds over time (like having a bar in the Arena), but this isn't something where we changed our minds. 

If you are talking about the Arena specifically, correct.  If you are talking about a public sparring area in Tuluk, incorrect.

In the Crater, there was a bar.  I forget what its name was.  It had a single room that you had to pay 50? sid to get past the guard.  The Pit?  I can't remember, maybe that was the room, maybe that was the bar.  Anyways, both people would pay the fee, go into the room, and it was a public sparring room.  I seem to remember in the adjacent room description betting going on about the participants, but I was never able to figure out any automated syntax (I think there was something but it was broken?).

It worked fairly well.  However, that was partly due to the fact that the only way to disengage from combat at the time was to flee, which meant at least one person would have to pay the fee again for there to be more sparring.

This was pre-Cataclysm, of course.

What I was referring to was this:

We built a bar at the Arena.  Since it was built it was obviously thought to be a good idea at the time.  This opinion has changed over time.
We implemented a training area at the Arena, intended for Arena events.  It was rarely (if ever) used for that purpose.  We did not change our minds on this, we just removed access because of the abuse.

What you've described there also provides some measure of deterrence to endless sparring with no strings attached, seeing as how there is access control and a cost involved.  Not quite the same thing as what was happening here.

[Twilight]

Noted.  I couldn't tell, from the way it was written, if it was referring to the bar, the Arena, or public sparring in general.

[Voular]

A public place where the peoples can learn how to fight and measure their strengths is counter-productive in any totalitarian regime. Who knows what sort of ideas and organisations could crop up in such places. Stop trying shimmy your OOC feelings and greed for higher skills into a setting which obviously doesn't support it. Bad twinker, bad!

[Kalai]

Edit: No longer comfortable saying what I posted. Summarized, was 'I'm not comfortable calling people twinks because they want to interact with others, and roleplay; it creates an OOCly hostile environment, and is more likely to alienate players than correct them.'

[Knight of Knives]

Why should these things be free? Your poor little independent hunter doesn't -deserve- a place to spar in the city to improve your ability to kill animals. Sorry.

• Nothing in Zalanthas is free.

You want the perks ? There are a few ways - partisanship, House service, Legions, (paying for your own private room) currently.

There might be an option to expand- the South has both the Tor Academy and the T'zai Byn, where you can spar your heart out for a year then bump off. The North might benefit from opening the A'Jinn Academy (although the # of people it would benefit would be small), but perhaps the option is to create something more mercenary like the latter options. There are definitely some prospects in game.

But yea, I agree, a free-open-spar-your-heart-out arena is not Tuluki in culture. And it's obviously abuseable.

[Delusion]

It's much more efficient to kill animals in order to become better at fighting and killing animals than it is to find people to interact and train with. So what Kalai said, really.

[RogueGunslinger]

I think the biggest difference difference in opinions here seems to be one of realism, and one of playability. Those for the idea seem to think it's a good because it brings people together and foster roleplay. The other side is saying from a roleplaying standpoint it doesn't make much sense for sparring gear and free area to be given to the masses.

That why I like my idea or reaching a sort of middle ground between these two difference with real arena fights that you don't have to go to a Templar to set up, and can be survivable if the crowd(or noble overruling) want to keep you alive(if nobody is around have it default to keeping you alive).

[TheWanderer]

Public Sparring:
If you'd like to go somewhere to train, aren't there clans for that? If you feel you're too codedly weak, maybe you should join the Byn and try the independent groups later - I mean, isn't that one of the purposes for joining the T'zai Byn? Becoming a skilled warrior? It really just seems like a way for other players to avoid the schedules of clans, and boost their skill levels without the shoveling of shit. As far as fostering role-play goes, I seriously doubt anything major will come from this. I imagine more awkward stares, awkward silence, a hothead who can't believe you didn't disengage in time, or that you didn't flee, and the occasional dwarf that asks everybody if they're up for ruff circle.

Opening the Arena:
Why? The rulers of a totalitarian society suddenly want their citizens running off into the arena killing each other on a whim? It just wouldn't make a lot of sense IC for Templars and whatnot to give free reign of the arena to all of Allanak's (or Tuluk, I guess) citizens. That's their domain, their punishment for criminals, and their entertainment for their citizens. They run the show. Grudges can be settled outside of the gates.

[RogueGunslinger]

Opening the Arena:
Why? The rulers of a totalitarian society suddenly want their citizens running off into the arena killing each other on a whim? It just wouldn't make a lot of sense IC for Templars and whatnot to give free reign of the arena to all of Allanak's (or Tuluk, I guess) citizens. That's their domain, their punishment for criminals, and their entertainment for their citizens. They run the show. Grudges can be settled outside of the gates.

This is sort of off topic now. But the reason I think it could work is because gladiator culture is not very well defined, but seems to be a very large part of the world. It doesn't just have to be grudge matches, but actual bet on fights that would net the house a ton of coins(As all gambling places do) while also offering glory and a small payout to the victor. Something like horse races but with blood and gore. Winners names would be broadcast through the city from that Gladiator platform in the Gaj.

Maybe I'm just in the mood for another round of gladiator fights though.

[TheWanderer]

Yeah, something along the lines of nightly arena matches might be cool. An announcement would be made by an npc, and then we'd have an hour during peak where the arena is open, and contestants can enter as they see fit -- well, I need not go into further detail, for the rest is pretty much what you posted above.

[Jingo]

I im aganst that 2 bc my chars wud no lunger b the most powrefull lulz

I'm 4 it sos I can skillmax without any repucussion and beat the noobz lulz

^
Equally retarded, useless comments.

gortok>raptor>gith>dujat>ggwp

Edit: Seriously. Punish the people that abuse the system. Not the people that enjoy or benefit from it.

We did, by closing the Arena for endless, no-strings-attached sparring.  THAT was the abuse of the system.  The system was intended to do x (be used for Arena events), people were doing y with it (wow much spar very public no obligation).  I don't care if you were using it and roleplaying your heart out, we did not ever intend for there to be a place for public sparring.  You want to get good sparring against other people, join a clan that has a place where you can do such things.  I understand that people believe the interaction was good and that is being taken into account for future opportunities, but as of the time of this writing, we are heavily against any system or location that people can just spar together in safety with no additional obligations or strings attached to it.

I don't know if this is a staff perspective thing or not but the system as it stands at this moment is still imminently abusable. Do you honestly think the twinks aren't just going to go back to the dwarf-warrior-hunter route? Raptors at day 2 and dujat at day 5? It's so fucking easy to do, it is hardly even cheating. It just takes some ooc knowledge of the game world.

But god help you if you're playing a city role. Public training is outlawed by the templarate.

The people that did not do the above were punished because the public arena actually flattened out the difference in power curves. Now apparently training spaces and partners are more valuable than water.

[BleakOne]

At least twinks who run out of the gates to spamhunt can (and generally do) end up falling victim to the various dangers of the outside world. In a public, free sparring in the city area there's little to no chance of death or serious harm.

[boog]

Why should these things be free? Your poor little independent hunter doesn't -deserve- a place to spar in the city to improve your ability to kill animals. Sorry.

• Nothing in Zalanthas is free.

You want the perks ? There are a few ways - partisanship, House service, Legions, (paying for your own private room) currently.

There might be an option to expand- the South has both the Tor Academy and the T'zai Byn, where you can spar your heart out for a year then bump off. The North might benefit from opening the A'Jinn Academy (although the # of people it would benefit would be small), but perhaps the option is to create something more mercenary like the latter options. There are definitely some prospects in game.

But yea, I agree, a free-open-spar-your-heart-out arena is not Tuluki in culture. And it's obviously abuseable.

*inserts other threads about people preferring to play indies*

[Cutthroat]

When it comes to the relative effectiveness a person who kills animals to train vs. a person who gets access to a sparring area to train, it really depends on what a player plays the game for. If a player plays to slaughter animals endlessly so that he can kill even bigger animals, and so on, that is the extent of his character. Congratulations, you can kill a dujat at day 5 and you made 10,000 coins from selling raptor teeth - well, no other characters really care about yours, and one unlucky run-in with a rogue magicker or mekillot or whatever ends everything.

Whereas joining a clan or indie group or otherwise arranging more "formal" training for your PC may result in slower skill gain, purely due to relying on other PCs being around to train with, at least the skill gain is over a longer period, comes with all the roleplay that comes with playing in the city. Your PC survives longer, is able to build more trust and do other things besides kill, kill, kill.

In that sense, I don't pity the people who are forced to use private sparring areas with fewer PCs, because they get more of a reward in the long run. They get to delve into the game for everything it's worth.

[Riev]

There may be areas where we've changed our minds over time (like having a bar in the Arena), but this isn't something where we changed our minds. 

If you are talking about the Arena specifically, correct.  If you are talking about a public sparring area in Tuluk, incorrect.

In the Crater, there was a bar.  I forget what its name was.  It had a single room that you had to pay 50? sid to get past the guard.  The Pit?  I can't remember, maybe that was the room, maybe that was the bar.  Anyways, both people would pay the fee, go into the room, and it was a public sparring room.  I seem to remember in the adjacent room description betting going on about the participants, but I was never able to figure out any automated syntax (I think there was something but it was broken?).

It worked fairly well.  However, that was partly due to the fact that the only way to disengage from combat at the time was to flee, which meant at least one person would have to pay the fee again for there to be more sparring.

This was pre-Cataclysm, of course.

I am interested in bringing back a similar idea for Tuluk but I need to iron out some details to make it more Tuluki and more likely to be picked up by staff.

[Scarecrow]

If you want to spar join a clan. If you're a hunter who wants to spar, join a GMH and spar with the other hunters. I don't personally see a need for public sparring areas.
And I have lost count of the number of 'raptor day 2, dujat day 5' hunters/warriors whatever who has simply died or gone missing some day. Those kind of reckless risks end up killing you before long. The most dangerous people are the ones who fight with measured caution, not razing the land every week or reboot to consume all in sight, but only hunting when they need to.
I'm not sure what RP the arena would foster by allowing sparring that you couldn't do just as easily in a clan. I think having a public sparring area doesn't do anything but hurt clans and give indies more advantages than they already have.

[Jingo]

While I generally like clans as an option, its not a one size fits all solution.

Seriously. If I play a warrior or an assassin that doesn't hunt and doesn't want to be a full time employee, what are my options? Because there SHOULD be options.

But at this point it's only apartment sparring or asking clan dudes if it's k to join them.

And I have lost count of the number of 'raptor day 2, dujat day 5' hunters/warriors whatever who has simply died or gone missing some day. Those kind of reckless risks end up killing you before long. The most dangerous people are the ones who fight with measured caution, not razing the land every week or reboot to consume all in sight, but only hunting when they need to.

In that sense, I don't pity the people who are forced to use private sparring areas with fewer PCs, because they get more of a reward in the long run. They get to delve into the game for everything it's worth.

While I do ultimately agree here. Getting your ass handed by you by not one, not two, but three generations of the same cookie cutter ranger indicates a problem.

And don't get me started by the players that just spam hunt for ten days and THEN come back to the city and delve into the game world and interact with other player base. Basically they get to have the best of both worlds and then lord their combat skills over the noobs.

[number13]

When you get down to it, it's a problem with the way the game works, isn't it?

Fighting beasties solo day in and day out shouldn't generally result in a mammothly strong hunter. It should result in a guy who is tore up, probably missing a limb or two, or at least stricken out of the hunting game by some severe injuries.  Hunting the most vicious of monsters should be the job of a the 5-day warrior -- he's been fully trained, but he's not yet had any body parts eaten.  Getting up to the 10 to 15 day mark, a hunter should be retiring to a more social game. He's teaching the younger hunters the tricks, directing them, playing a more social game, because his body's been punished beyond repair.

Instead, we get this odd situation where, as time goes on, increasingly the hunter doesn't need friends to help him bring down even the most vicious of creatures. It should be the other way around!  You want the older hunter around because he's good at tracking, knows all the best tricks for skinning and tanning, can give advice on how to best hunt. But you should want those newbie Byn runners in front of that grizzled vet doing the brunt of the work.  Even if the older hunter hasn't sustained crippling injuries, somehow, after a lifetime of fighting giant insects, he should be too valuable an asset to throw into the meat grinder.

[Cutthroat]

While I generally like clans as an option, its not a one size fits all solution.

Seriously. If I play a warrior or an assassin that doesn't hunt and doesn't want to be a full time employee, what are my options? Because there SHOULD be options.

But at this point it's only apartment sparring or asking clan dudes if it's k to join them.

And I have lost count of the number of 'raptor day 2, dujat day 5' hunters/warriors whatever who has simply died or gone missing some day. Those kind of reckless risks end up killing you before long. The most dangerous people are the ones who fight with measured caution, not razing the land every week or reboot to consume all in sight, but only hunting when they need to.

In that sense, I don't pity the people who are forced to use private sparring areas with fewer PCs, because they get more of a reward in the long run. They get to delve into the game for everything it's worth.

While I do ultimately agree here. Getting your ass handed by you by not one, not two, but three generations of the same cookie cutter ranger indicates a problem.

And don't get me started by the players that just spam hunt for ten days and THEN come back to the city and delve into the game world and interact with other player base. Basically they get to have the best of both worlds and then lord their combat skills over the noobs.

Not sure that I agree that there should be additional options at this point. Because when it comes to formal training, clans are all there is. The Byn is specifically billed as a place where novice fighters can learn about combat, so long as they pay their fee and work as a mercenary. Other clans offer training as a perk in exchange for the work the clan member would be doing. It's not only the only option available to PCs, but it's the only thing available to the virtual world full of virtual people as well.

To get a more special or unique or informal arrangement, you can work with expert PCs to teach you without having to spar in an apartment, or anywhere else really. There was that one thread where people claimed indies were hoarding coins - well, they can spread some of that to people in clans for lessons. Sadly, it sometimes feels like the playerbase is not interested in combat lessons without sparring, even when they are reasonably codedly effective.

With regards to people who train in unusual ways, I still maintain that PCs who go out of the city regularly die in droves. No matter how "safe" the outside is considered to be, it's not. If players take the huge risk of hunting alone, the game rewards them codedly but not a whole lot RP-wise. If they want to stop hunting and interact with the rest of the playerbase, one would at least hope they have a good IC reason for their character to do that.

[FantasyWriter]

If you want to spar join a clan. If you're a hunter who wants to spar, join a GMH and spar with the other hunters. I don't personally see a need for public sparring areas.
And I have lost count of the number of 'raptor day 2, dujat day 5' hunters/warriors whatever who has simply died or gone missing some day. Those kind of reckless risks end up killing you before long. The most dangerous people are the ones who fight with measured caution, not razing the land every week or reboot to consume all in sight, but only hunting when they need to.
I'm not sure what RP the arena would foster by allowing sparring that you couldn't do just as easily in a clan. I think having a public sparring area doesn't do anything but hurt clans and give indies more advantages than they already have.

This post (and a few others before it) totally ignores the idea of clanned character benefiting from a public sparring area. What are these elusive benefits, you might ask...
1) Recruiters can asses the strengths and weaknesses of potential employees.
2) Clan members can spar against people in other clans without the danger of going behind locked gates (never a wise decision by anyone).
3) Potential recruits can assess the skills of potential crew members before decided who they want to join up with.
4) A way to for clans and clanned individuals to fight for and attain status based on their martial abilities.
5) Bossman needs Agent Kadioof's right hand man taken out? Let's watch him for a few weeks and see what kind of fighting styles seem to work best against him to give us the best chance of doing it with minimal losses.
6) Indies stop sparring in apartments and interact with !Clanned characters, giving everyone more group RP time and maybe even making them decide to join up with crews that they enjoy hanging out with?
7) When Kuraci First Sergeant Mekbane decides to "encourage" Joe Nobody to or not to do something for them, Joe Nobody shits his pants because he's SEEN what Sergeant Mekbane can do to people when he doesn't like them.

Edit to add:
Merchant Sobadass Salarr tell's Jane Whocares to stop selling axes to anyone but Salarr or she might have an accident.  Jane also shits her pants (or skirt).
9) Provides a place for "accidents" to happen without leaving the gates or going behind apartment doors or clan gates.

[Cutthroat]

If you want to spar join a clan. If you're a hunter who wants to spar, join a GMH and spar with the other hunters. I don't personally see a need for public sparring areas.
And I have lost count of the number of 'raptor day 2, dujat day 5' hunters/warriors whatever who has simply died or gone missing some day. Those kind of reckless risks end up killing you before long. The most dangerous people are the ones who fight with measured caution, not razing the land every week or reboot to consume all in sight, but only hunting when they need to.
I'm not sure what RP the arena would foster by allowing sparring that you couldn't do just as easily in a clan. I think having a public sparring area doesn't do anything but hurt clans and give indies more advantages than they already have.

This post (and a few others before it) totally ignores the idea of clanned character benefiting from a public sparring area. What are these elusive benefits, you might ask...
1) Recruiters can asses the strengths and weaknesses of potential employees.
2) Clan members can spar against people in other clans without the danger of going behind locked gates (never a wise decision by anyone).
3) Potential recruits can assess the skills of potential crew members before decided who they want to join up with.
4) A way to for clans and clanned individuals to fight for and attain status based on their martial abilities.
5) Bossman needs Agent Kadioof's right hand man taken out? Let's watch him for a few weeks and see what kind of fighting styles seem to work best against him to give us the best chance of doing it with minimal losses.
6) Indies stop sparring in apartments and interact with !Clanned characters, giving everyone more group RP time and maybe even making them decide to join up with crews that they enjoy hanging out with?
7) When Kuraci First Sergeant Mekbane decides to "encourage" Joe Nobody to or not to do something for them, Joe Nobody shits his pants because he's SEEN what Sergeant Mekbane can do to people when he doesn't like them.

Edit to add:
Merchant Sobadass Salarr tell's Jane Whocares to stop selling axes to anyone but Salarr or she might have an accident.  Jane also shits her pants (or skirt).
9) Provides a place for "accidents" to happen without leaving the gates or going behind apartment doors or clan gates.

Absolutely, clanned characters can benefit from it. But in practice, when the sparring area in the arena was still open and being used, it was mostly used by indies to gain the advantage of having a safe place to train without any of the obligation of having to do something for it in return. It couldn't be used as a recruiting ground because it was impossible to sell training as a perk for joining. It was nice flavor for independent-and-partisan-minded Tuluk but it wreaked havoc on clans for the most part.

It's just so much easier from a gameplay standpoint to link formal training to clan membership, and I say that as someone who likes the idea of public sparring areas but is wary of the effects they tend to have on the balance of the playerbase within the game.

The problem many players have with a clan for training is that it is dependent on other PCs being around to train with. Training should be more steady in clans, almost as much as hunting. Replacing sparring dummies with sparring NPCs like Shadows of Isildur had, which would use the local fighting style or the clan's special fighting style and actually fight back, and have middling skills to allow skill growth to, say, journeyman ranks - would go a long way towards that. They can even disappear and re-appear at certain times like dummies do to prevent people from sparring them constantly (and also refresh their HP).

[FantasyWriter]

My idea is more along the lines of creating a new place for sparring, preferably one that a PC has worked for for the benefit of their House, because seeing something come to fruitation is always better than having it magickally summoned. (IMHO)

Charge entrance fees to unclanned characters, make it almost prohibitively expensive.
Only GMHs and clans based in the city of the "arena" would count as clanned. Tribals, the Guild, etc would still have to pay unless worked out with the controlling house's PC representative.
Clanned characters get in free because either 1) Their clan controls the arena or 2) Their house has payed and upfront fee for this employment perk.
Unclanned characters may come in -with- clanned characters via the follow command without paying, though, in theory, either they have paid for lessons are are a potential recruit.

[Harmless]

This thread is filled with so much hyperbole and generalizations that it's kind of just self-defeating.

Going outside != instadeath every time
Hunting alone != bad RP
Nonclanned != no interaction

I mean the list goes on...

[long live miley cyrus]

If new clanned folks used the pre-paid arena fee perk to train, I could see that working, but the fee, although virtual, I think should be taken into account; for example, if you're still using the Arena after a game month with RL day-to-day regularity (like every other time you log in you either hunt or train, 50/50) and your employer finds out, they should be pissed. That stack of fees is enormous, and your hunter needs to start bringing in the hides and materials, quit while they're in one piece or be revealed as a shit hunter minus a couple of fingers.

That way the Arena doesn't just become a place for a majority of clanned hunters and rich indies to fight with and rp with each other. That sounded like a better argument in my head. I just would feel weird about a place where only clanned hunters went from different clans on a regular basis, usually without much in the way of political motives, and in a large part because there's a lack of a Byn in Tuluk, an ooc reminder I can do without.

[ShaLeah]

I don't think any city state will allow anything for the masses that they don't directly profit from. Wanna spar with your buddies? Pay a real fee for access, none of this virtual shit.

[LittleLady]

I think a public sparring place would be great. I'd like to see it run by a House, sponsored by a PC. Perhaps make it rentable from the House. Make it someplace they could host things like "sparring tournaments" or "open recruitment gatherings", and even a place people could give lessons. There are a lot of good ideas that could come from this, and keeping it PC run/operated, as well as charging an actual fee, will help to enforce rp and make it less about spam training.

[Gunnerblaster]

Open arenas, with entrance fees each time you pass through - Provide your own training gear.

[ShaLeah]

Open arenas, with entrance fees each time you pass through - Provide your own training gear.

Ditto.

Make it like a backroom. Sorry, the arena is not available now. Trent with Yalta, Amos, Tango and Sid.

[Scarecrow]

In response to FantasyWriter, I agree those options could be interesting and add to the game. Only one problem.

People were never using the public sparring for that. If we listen to Nyr, they just became spam sparring fests for people. Nobody used them for sneaky assassinations and whatnot. It got abused.

[FantasyWriter]

I must have missed that, but if a PC is spam sparring, it sounds like a good time for them to be staff-forced to pass out from exhaustion so your local sticky fingers can have their way with their things.

[long live miley cyrus]

Didn't staff say they were working on a fix for this? For the lack of the Byn in Tuluk. I don't remember.

[Barsook]

I think it would be nice if there was a clan like the Byn in the North rather than public sparring arenas.  Or a GMH for something that deals with sparring and sparring equipment.  But the abuse is this issue in the bottom line

[Nyr]

Didn't staff say they were working on a fix for this? For the lack of the Byn in Tuluk. I don't remember.

Pay attention to something staff mentioned...on the GDB?  Surely you can't be serious! 

[James de Monet]

Code Select Expand

On the sparring ring floor:

Looking down at the twitching body of the tall, muscular man, the scarred trooper says in sirihish, a hint of a smirk touching his utterly remorseless features:
"Oops."

Indifferently, the militia sergeant shouts, in sirihish:
"Somebody get that body out of there. Next!"

This...kinda makes me want to have a public arena. Everything else, not so much.  I don't think it's realistic. Even in RL, where public works and societal benefit are a thing, how many places can you go and just be allowed to beat your friends bloody for free?

Schools, to a degree. Schools exist on Zalanthas for the few.

Otherwise...?

[BleakOne]

It's probably not in the best interests of the Powers That Be in the cities to provide free training for people not working directly for them.

[Amoeboid]

I think that two things could work.  The first is the pay for entry arenas that folks mentioned.  It'd be like going to the gym - you rent some gear, and there's indie instructors offering to sell lessons.  Secondly, you could take free classes from the militia and have your name recorded on a list of reservists that could be called into duty.  I thin those could work to prevent abuse.

[AreteX]

I am all for this idea as long as you can draw real weapons and murder the heck out of someone without consequences.

Why I say this is because it would be akin to entering an arena, and if your opponent and yourself agree to "Spar" each other, sure, but heated words get exchanged and suddenly it is a shanky bloodbath.

I think this would be great for Allanak, actually, and really fit the theme of a heated argument turning into drawn boneswordz.

Lets do it!

[Patuk]

I still don't see this as being very appropriate to our setting. Most modern states do not provide the opportunity for people to go and turn themselves into trained and armed professionals, and most modern states aren't oppressive and totalitarian regimes.

[Fragmented]

I still don't see this as being very appropriate to our setting. Most modern states do not provide the opportunity for people to go and turn themselves into trained and armed professionals, and most modern states aren't oppressive and totalitarian regimes.

Psh. This is what paintball arenas are for. I'll bet there's some paintball fanatics out there who are better snipers then a SEAL.

(P.S. - Try letting the government find out you don't have health insurance. Hehe)

[whitt]

I'll bet there's some paintball fanatics out there who are better snipers then a SEAL.

I wasn't, but he was.

[Evilone]

My thoughts it would have to be a war school or such, and people pay to join for lessons on battle and weapon training. Tuluk wise, I think opening Sujaal's place to be an actual clan wouldn't be too much work to build, and use that like the Tor Academy was in Nak? I'm not real familiar how the Tor Academy was run though.

I don't think there needs to be full public access for indies to train.  If you want to be a great fighter, join a soldier clan. It should be difficult for those not in certain positions to acquire good training. Those are the benefits the legion, militia,  byn and fist have. Much like how its difficult for indy merchants to make the good shit that gmh can do because they have the better tools and workplaces, and trainers. Freedom comes at a cost.

[Riev]

My thoughts it would have to be a war school or such, and people pay to join for lessons on battle and weapon training. Tuluk wise, I think opening Sujaal's place to be an actual clan wouldn't be too much work to build, and use that like the Tor Academy was in Nak? I'm not real familiar how the Tor Academy was run though.

I don't think there needs to be full public access for indies to train.  If you want to be a great fighter, join a soldier clan. It should be difficult for those not in certain positions to acquire good training. Those are the benefits the legion, militia,  byn and fist have. Much like how its difficult for indy merchants to make the good shit that gmh can do because they have the better tools and workplaces, and trainers. Freedom comes at a cost.

One common argument is that outdoorsy indies get the option to find critters to kill. Soldiers dont get that option and in fact with so many cland around, interaction can be tough to come by.

[Patuk]

My thoughts it would have to be a war school or such, and people pay to join for lessons on battle and weapon training. Tuluk wise, I think opening Sujaal's place to be an actual clan wouldn't be too much work to build, and use that like the Tor Academy was in Nak? I'm not real familiar how the Tor Academy was run though.

I don't think there needs to be full public access for indies to train.  If you want to be a great fighter, join a soldier clan. It should be difficult for those not in certain positions to acquire good training. Those are the benefits the legion, militia,  byn and fist have. Much like how its difficult for indy merchants to make the good shit that gmh can do because they have the better tools and workplaces, and trainers. Freedom comes at a cost.

One common argument is that outdoorsy indies get the option to find critters to kill. Soldiers dont get that option and in fact with so many cland around, interaction can be tough to come by.

Whereas this may or may not be true, creating the One True Way for indies to spar without risk of getting a tembo on 'roids to reel lock you is not going to solve that issue at all.

[Riev]

My thoughts it would have to be a war school or such, and people pay to join for lessons on battle and weapon training. Tuluk wise, I think opening Sujaal's place to be an actual clan wouldn't be too much work to build, and use that like the Tor Academy was in Nak? I'm not real familiar how the Tor Academy was run though.

I don't think there needs to be full public access for indies to train.  If you want to be a great fighter, join a soldier clan. It should be difficult for those not in certain positions to acquire good training. Those are the benefits the legion, militia,  byn and fist have. Much like how its difficult for indy merchants to make the good shit that gmh can do because they have the better tools and workplaces, and trainers. Freedom comes at a cost.

One common argument is that outdoorsy indies get the option to find critters to kill. Soldiers dont get that option and in fact with so many cland around, interaction can be tough to come by.

Whereas this may or may not be true, creating the One True Way for indies to spar without risk of getting a tembo on 'roids to reel lock you is not going to solve that issue at all.

And as such, isn't my argument at all. Just that the common argument is that there is a way for "indie" PCs to go out and get their skilling done in a rather asocial way, all things considered.

Just taking Tuluk for example, there are 2 GMHs, and 4 open clans, two of which could be considered "soldier" clans.
In Allanak, there are 2 GMHs, and just about the same number of open clans, 3 of which could be considered "soldier" clans. One of which, being the T'zai Byn which has a reptuation for "Come here to learn to fight, then find your way.".

I've played numerous characters, hire-ers and hire-ees, that particularly feel that asking to be a Recruit in any Noble House or even GMH is kinda preposterous if you're literally right out of chargen. The T'zai Byn used to be a place to say "Yeah I was in <Sergeant's> unit, went through my full year, ask for a recommendation". Salarr used to say you -had- to work one Recruit year, and FOUR years of contracted work before they'd even THINK of offering a recommendation to -any- other affiliation.

But in Tuluk, if you want to learn to fight, you have to choose one of the two soldiering clans. Which are LIFE OATH ONLY, there is no "Oh, well, I recruited for a year but this isn't for me". You can't do that in Tuluk, you can't just waste the City Militia's time.


The idea of a "Public" arena is nice (as I said, working on it but.... eh), but really what Tuluk could use is a Byn-like presence where warriors/fighters/people with few other skills can come together because... maybe you can't fashion fancy bone swords, but you can always fight.

[Qzzrbl]

Well.

You're not exactly stepping on any huge clan's toes by starting up your own mercenary group in Tuluk these days, so I hear.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Yeh - somebody should do that. One of you old, 5-year long character vet types.

[Nyr]

I don't know if this is a staff perspective thing or not but the system as it stands at this moment is still imminently abusable. Do you honestly think the twinks aren't just going to go back to the dwarf-warrior-hunter route? Raptors at day 2 and dujat at day 5? It's so fucking easy to do, it is hardly even cheating. It just takes some ooc knowledge of the game world.

It is definitely a staff perspective thing.  Absolutely.  Any players intending to focus on skills instead of roleplay will continue to find ways to focus on skills instead of roleplay.  We simply feel that if a system was implemented for one purpose and it went sour, it should be pulled and then reconsidered.

This post by Riev was important:

Can we -not- have the discussion devolve into "Well codedly speaking, it would be a benefit because..." and talk more about how the  idea could help foster and improve the roleplay and feel of the cities?

It is important because the discussion didn't really devolve to that, it started there.  The first post in this thread makes it seem like the "skill" side of things was the big kicker here. Skill opportunities lost are mentioned more prominently, sooner, and in more of a verbose manner than RP opportunities lost:

So when are we getting the Tuluki arena back?

Seriously. It was a godsend for anyone who wanted to train without having to leave the walls and skill up on gortok. It allowed independents to work on skills and it allowed players in dead clans to work on them also. Not to mention it was great atmosphere for the city itself. Now characters that can't get out and poke mobs are left at a huge disadvantage.

Because honestly, most players already know that the difference in power curve for characters that just spar and characters that hunt is already fuckhuege.

Not to mention the loss of RP opportunities. Characters who wouldn't have anything to do with each other could spar in the arena and interact that way instead of with the samey tavern butt scratch emotes.

So really? What's up. It honestly baffles me that it was removed when it added so much to the game.

Yes, it was a godsend for people that wanted a safe way to work on their skills, but RP is not mentioned there.  Yes, it allowed independents to work on their skills and those in less-active clans to work on their skills, but RP is not mentioned there.  Atmosphere is finally mentioned (but fleetingly), and then we are back to the disadvantage faced by people that have to do work with their skills, followed by a mention of skill power curves.  Next we have another mention of RP opportunities lost by people being able to skill up with each other (but they can RP while they do so, so there's that).

I'm not saying you personally are focused on that part.  That's just how it was laid out, perhaps incorrectly or unintentionally.

We've given feedback on it.  You'll see changes eventually:

I understand that people believe the interaction was good and that is being taken into account for future opportunities

Until then, yes, I imagine that the players that really want to work on those skills and want to go to those ends...they will have to take their warriors out to go fight dujat, because it's very important to get those skills.  Alternatively, they can review this and try to be a better Armageddon roleplayer:

Skills vs. Roleplay

BAD:
A few scenarios below.
1.  Amos and Talia spar for hours on end.
2.  Any opportunity to increase skill is sought by Amos.  No matter how harebrained, no matter how unrealistic, no matter how silly it seems, this is what Amos pursues.  Heck, he sneaks out of the city sometimes just to go kill stuff, or sneaks into the 'rinth because he is bored and wants to kill stuff.
3.  Skilling up is sought after more than actual roleplay towards any end that might require those skills to be used.

WHY THIS IS BAD:
This is a roleplay-enforced game.  All of these are not cool.

Where is this in the documentation?
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Roleplaying
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/FAQ_9
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Rules

PROPER RESPONSE TO BAD BEHAVIOR:
Report this to staff if it is seen.  Staff will handle it.  This should not be occurring.

HOW TO IMPROVE:
Scenario 1:  Take breaks.  Do some roleplay besides constantly worrying about your skill levels.  Even if you aren't, you look like you are.
Scenario 2:  Stop worrying so much about your skills.  Period.  This is a roleplaying game.  "I'm bored" is an OOC player feeling, "I want to go kill some people" is the IC result, and staff label that as poor roleplay and bad player judgment.  Stop playing the character as though it is a bunch of skills as a means to an end, and start playing the character as a person.  It is possible to take the IC pursuit of skills too far, to the point where your actions (even if you have some kind of RP justification) look entirely motivated by OOC reasons ("I need more skill").
Scenario 3:  This is a roleplay-enforced game.  If you wish to spend your time skilling up your character in private (or unrealistically in any number of ways) with only scant opportunities to actually apply those skills appropriately...your time may be better served elsewhere.

It'll be up to them to make that choice.