Tuluki Population

[bcw81]

Agreed. Finding a teapot shouldn't be an ordeal.

I'll check into it.

Not one, not two, but three teapots available where you folks were looking for it.  That "dude in the commons" for the win (he looks exactly like the kind of guy that would sell you pot).

Hookahs...well, there's one House you can always go to to find them.  I dunno that it is as necessary an item as tea since you can sniff or smoke spice without a hookah.

I personally don't like hookahs in my Zalanthas. To that point you're basically filling the vase up with 2-3 water bottles every day you use it, which would turn into fuckall expensive. (and that's on a medium sized one - The only ones I've seen in Zalanthas are huge.)

Not to mention that the shisha isn't dry for a reason. Spice, so far as we know, doesn't come in sticky concoctions of honey, glycerin, and syrup. The honey and the syrup give the shisha (and in my fantasy, spice) it's flavor, while the glycerin keeps it from burning within the bowl. I'll waylay the fact that most everyone uses tin foil to keep the coals off of the tobacco because they also (in the middle east) lay the coal right on the shisha, but I'm not sure what chemicals they put in their tobacco to keep it from burning like that.

So despite my RL love for shisha and hookah, I really don't see how there appears to be a few of these things in game... Ohwait... Tuluk.

Uh...

Muk Utep is a ginger.

[HavokBlue]

You know hookahs have been around a lot longer than tin foul has.

[Nyr]

What is it that you find intimidating about Tuluk?  What makes you hesitant?

I'll preface my post by saying I'm not currently very familiar with Tuluk. I haven't played a character that set foot in Tuluk since 2012. Obviously, a lot has changed...

Initially, I played almost primarily in Tuluk for many years. It was my favorite city. My opinion began to change following the end of the Allanaki Empire plot and the liberation of Tuluk. I always hear players saying on the GDB that Tuluk is an easy place to live. I disagree with this. Perhaps it's because most of my characters are killed by PCs and not NPC "monsters". Frequently, my adversaries were PC templars. In the past, I've found that Allanaki templars were more likely to be corrupt and more likely to deal out punishment that your character survived. Tuluki templars wouldn't take bribes or accept promises of service. Instead, I always ended up on the wrong end of the executioner's axe. I tried playing on the other side by serving as a templar's cohort. I played as a spy and an assassin for a templar. Eventually, I was given the task of executing an Allanaki noble. After months of planning, I finally assassinated the noble and returned to Tuluk expecting my promised reward. Instead, I got executed again. These deaths left a sour taste in my mouth and I started playing more in Allanak. I had more fun and stayed there. To stress my point that it's actually easier to survive in Allanak than Tuluk, consider this. If you play a rogue magicker in Tuluk and you get caught, you get executed. If you play the same character in Allanak and you get caught, you can beg to take the gem and live on to continue your character's story with a new twist. Consider a nonmagickal criminal, there's really nowhere to hide in Tuluk if you end up being wanted. In Allanak, you can escape to the labyrinth and live to steal another day. If you want to play a raider around Alllanak, you can live in Red Storm. There's no equivalent place like this near Tuluk. If you tried playing a raider in Luir's, it wouldn't take long for the PC templars and nobles of Tuluk to bribe a PC Kuraci and you'd be dead. I think the difficulty of playing an anti-Tuluki character based in the north predisposes everyone to work together. Thus the primary great advisary of many Tuluki PCs becomes a bahamet, a group of kryl, or a group of independent hunters/crafters quickly crushed under the boot of a GMH via templarate executions. I've only played Allanaki templars, so I've never read the Tuluki templar documents. Maybe the docs say you can't be corrupt and exectution is supose to be the primary form of punishment? Maybe I just got unlucky with my small sample size of characters? I don't know. The result was me playing more characters in Allanak.

However.... A lot has changed in Tuluk. I find a lot of these changes very interesting. The tattoos, the shadow artists, the barricades, and Nyr's post about House Dasari have all peaked my interest. I have plans to play several of my next characters in Tuluk. With the recent changes and my time of absence, I think I'll find Tuluk quite fun and exciting. Pretty soon, there will be a net increase in the Tuluki player base by one. Maybe I'll see you there?

That's a really honest assessment, thanks for your feedback.  Some good points there that we have (at the very least) mentioned on our side of things.

When did Tuluk start getting referred to as Orwellian?  I can only remember it happening in the last year or so?  The term just comes with so much baggage, and now that staff are using it, changes my perception of what the new Tuluk was supposed to be at inception.

Not sure I like it, I dislike the 1984 setting as I never felt that it was realistic at all.

I wrote up a post that explained some of that...I felt as though it went into detail as to what that the influence of Tuluk should be.  It's over here.  By no means am I saying Tuluk should be like 1984, only that it should take some influence from that (it is the most recognizable source that folks may be familiar with, though other posters here have detailed other potential influences) as well as its tribal origins.

As for when it started getting referred to as Orwellian, you can see references to it as early as 2003 and again by a player in 2005.

[bcw81]

You know hookahs have been around a lot longer than tin foul has.

Hence the part about people laying the coal right on the shisha. Point being, spice doesn't have glycerin in it to slow the burning.

[HavokBlue]

You don't know what spice has in it.

spice is also not real.

[bcw81]

You don't know what spice has in it.

spice is also not real.

You can stick your spice in a pipe and smoke it. That means you can catch it on fire in some way shape or form without horrible hassle.

No, I don't know the chemical ingredients of spice, but that doesn't mean it's going to be perfect for -every- way we humans use tobacco.

[RogueGunslinger]

You know hookahs have been around a lot longer than tin foul has.

Hence the part about people laying the coal right on the shisha. Point being, spice doesn't have glycerin in it to slow the burning.

There are very viscous spices, actually. It's not all dry powder. Also you don't HAVE to change the water, and you can easily use other liquids too, in a hookah.

Just because you can stick it in a pipe and smoke it doesn't mean it doesn't have trouble catchign fire. I smoke hash in a pipe all the time.

[TheWanderer]

Should we start a spice thread?

[bcw81]

You know hookahs have been around a lot longer than tin foul has.

Hence the part about people laying the coal right on the shisha. Point being, spice doesn't have glycerin in it to slow the burning.

There are very viscous spices, actually. It's not all dry powder. Also you don't HAVE to change the water, and you can easily use other liquids too, in a hookah.

Just because you can stick it in a pipe and smoke it doesn't mean it doesn't have trouble catchign fire. I smoke hash in a pipe all the time.

You have a point, except the water changing thing. If you aren't changing your water after a day or so, you're going to have a bad time. (Read: Headaches the size of a college frats' after a superbowl party.)

[RogueGunslinger]

You know hookahs have been around a lot longer than tin foul has.

Hence the part about people laying the coal right on the shisha. Point being, spice doesn't have glycerin in it to slow the burning.

There are very viscous spices, actually. It's not all dry powder. Also you don't HAVE to change the water, and you can easily use other liquids too, in a hookah.

Just because you can stick it in a pipe and smoke it doesn't mean it doesn't have trouble catchign fire. I smoke hash in a pipe all the time.

You have a point, except the water changing thing. If you aren't changing your water after a day or so, you're going to have a bad time. (Read: Headaches the size of a college frats' after a superbowl party.)

I'm not a big shisha/hookah user, but I can go literally months without changing my bong-water without anything other than ruining the flavor of my hits.

Tabacco does suck though, so it wouldn't surprise me if that did happen.

Edit: But we're not talking about tobacco, are we?

[Evilone]

I wish the Warrens had more emphasis. It seems like few people want to play ugly or mutie warrens spawn. My last PC there I had fun with because I made them extremely Warrens and not at all attractive but got them into the Legions where you had to pretend to be nice anyway. Too many beatiful people.

Right den. *bobs his head*.. stupid promotion curse..

[Quirk]

I don't think it's quite as bad as is being made out. There have been points relatively recently where I've seen 6 or 7 PCs in a tavern. However, there appears to be a high proportion of clanned PCs in Tuluk at present, and they have other legitimate meeting places to conduct their business - this may contribute to some tavern emptiness.

I think Tuluk does suffer more heavily when it has low numbers of tavern-sitters, because these are generally split over three taverns some distance apart.

With regard to Tuluk and 1984, I think a substantial current problem is that we only largely see only one part of 1984 in game - whispers and disappearances. This has a chilling effect on the distribution of news and gossip, and makes the setting seem blander than it is. Besides this, silent disappearances aren't altogether effective at causing fear on a MUD where people can lose their characters to an unfortunate hunting trip, be assassinated or even just get bored and store.

A central thread in 1984 and the totalitarian regimes it drew inspiration from was propaganda. I feel there should be an official story that a loyal Tuluki can believe in, not an absence of any story at all. The Party of 1984 manufactured conflict to draw the faithful together with the Two Minute Hate, and had all sorts of bogeymen for good citizens to fear: foreigners and saboteurs and traitors. I'd like to see more events twisted to fit an official story, not simply erased, disappeared people denounced as traitors or other undesirables (I think this works better than simple disappearance in a context where PCs can disappear for entirely non-sinister reasons), and events that don't harm that story allowed to spread. I think this has happened to some extent with some of the staff-sponsored RPTs, but there's still a tendency for any event that could be considered negative from any angle at all to entirely disappear from the record at once, and where there's no juicy gossip the taverns can get a little dull.

Also, in 1984, the proles were largely ignored, apart from the occasional cull of one judged capable of becoming dangerous. "There was a vast amount of criminality in London, a whole world-within-a-world of thieves, bandits, prostitutes, drug-peddlers, and racketeers of every description; but since it all happened among the proles themselves, it was of no importance." Some sense of this wildness would go a long way to liven up the setting - perhaps this is already in the works with the "scarier" area planned in Tuluk.

[LittleLady]

With regard to Tuluk and 1984, I think a substantial current problem is that we only largely see only one part of 1984 in game - whispers and disappearances. This has a chilling effect on the distribution of news and gossip, and makes the setting seem blander than it is. Besides this, silent disappearances aren't altogether effective at causing fear on a MUD where people can lose their characters to an unfortunate hunting trip, be assassinated or even just get bored and store.

A central thread in 1984 and the totalitarian regimes it drew inspiration from was propaganda. I feel there should be an official story that a loyal Tuluki can believe in, not an absence of any story at all. The Party of 1984 manufactured conflict to draw the faithful together with the Two Minute Hate, and had all sorts of bogeymen for good citizens to fear: foreigners and saboteurs and traitors. I'd like to see more events twisted to fit an official story, not simply erased, disappeared people denounced as traitors or other undesirables (I think this works better than simple disappearance in a context where PCs can disappear for entirely non-sinister reasons), and events that don't harm that story allowed to spread. I think this has happened to some extent with some of the staff-sponsored RPTs, but there's still a tendency for any event that could be considered negative from any angle at all to entirely disappear from the record at once, and where there's no juicy gossip the taverns can get a little dull.

This is so very true. I couldn't agree more or have said it better.

[number13]

A central thread in 1984 and the totalitarian regimes it drew inspiration from was propaganda. I feel there should be an official story that a loyal Tuluki can believe in, not an absence of any story at all. The Party of 1984 manufactured conflict to draw the faithful together with the Two Minute Hate, and had all sorts of bogeymen for good citizens to fear: foreigners and saboteurs and traitors. I'd like to see more events twisted to fit an official story, not simply erased, disappeared people denounced as traitors or other undesirables (I think this works better than simple disappearance in a context where PCs can disappear for entirely non-sinister reasons), and events that don't harm that story allowed to spread. I think this has happened to some extent with some of the staff-sponsored RPTs, but there's still a tendency for any event that could be considered negative from any angle at all to entirely disappear from the record at once, and where there's no juicy gossip the taverns can get a little dull.

Some fun stuff there.

It strikes me as obvious now -- Tulukis should be able to talk about stuff like magick and commie mutant traitors openly, so long as they're following the party line.  Like, if your best friend Amos is denounced and disappears, you are practically required to talk smack about Amos, otherwise people might mistake you as his cohort in crime. The memory of Amos isn't erased: it's twisted into a new narrative.

You never liked Amos all that much. You always suspected he might be up to no good.  Now that the pieces have fallen into place, it all makes perfect sense. His crimes are obvious, and there's certain to be more that's yet to be uncovered.

The interesting bit is, of course, that Amos might have actually been the perfect Tuluki citizen, and an excellent and helpful person besides, who just ended up being the sacrificial pawn in a petty political struggle.  But since he's been denounced, everything good he ever did is washed away. He's now every bit as evil as an Allanaki magicker, and has been horrible his entire life. The templars showed so much patience with him, hoping he would see the Light, but in the end, he rejected the mercy of the Sun King, and so now must face justice.

[boog]

I see propaganda whenever I play in Tuluk.


It IS subtle sometimes, but certainly there. It is a city of art, after all...

And people talk plenty about abominations, traitors, and the south. I think maybe because it isn't like Allanak, right in your face, it somehow gets missed.

It is all there.

[MeTekillot]

Yeah, and I'm naked under my clothes and I'm pretty proud of it, but unless you're having sex with me you don't get to see it so you're missing out. I feel like Tuluk is a lot like that.

[boog]

Uhm.

Is that a mudsex joke?!

In truth, sometimes you really have to set the example, and I've never found that truer than when one plays in Tuluk.

[Harmless]

Over the past 7 or so years, across about the same number of PCs, I think I have learned absolutely nothing on how to function well anywhere higher than rock-bottom on Tuluk's social ladder. I'm almost 30 years old, and I still don't "get it."

So, when I play Tuluk, I always play right at the rock bottom.

On the few attempts that I have tried to play anything but the rock bottom, I was being pushed from all directions back to the rock bottom.

This is why I prefer Nak over Tuluk. Tuluk is pretty much the harshest social environment there could be. There isn't a single friend to be had in that city. Nak, on the other hand, feels a lot more like the real world to me. Tuluk, everyone is just an asshole.

[slvrmoontiger]

So untrue saying there isn't a single friend to be had in Tuluk. There are plenty. I've never had problems finding friends no matter what my character was like.

[RogueGunslinger]

So untrue saying there isn't a single friend to be had in Tuluk. There are plenty. I've never had problems finding friends no matter what my character was like.

I find this true of Armageddon in general. Friends are pretty easy to come by if you want them. Just stay alive for an IC year.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

You know, I think that the difference between Allanak and Tuluk, aside from IC lore and whatnot, really boils down to the players. It takes a certain sort of player to enjoy all that Tuluk has to offer. The amount of work that staff has put into the place is admirable, and the quality is really great (I say that as someone who has visited Tuluk from time to time). But as a player, Allanak works for me, and Tuluk, so far, hasn't.

And you know what? I think that's alright. Much like Armageddon caters to a niche of role-players, and SoI to another, and so on and so forth, I think that within our community, a certain niche feel at home up North, while another niche can't be without His Shadow. There are other niche groups who prefer a tribal experience, or an independent role, and will gravitate towards those.

Maybe Tuluk will always err to the side of a lower player population - it always seemed to during my time here, which spans nearly 20 years. With higher numbers of players online, this difference really tends to be less noticeable. I don't really know that more can be done to make Tuluk appealing to those comfortable with Allanak, and I don't know that it should.

[Lizzie]

Over the past 7 or so years, across about the same number of PCs, I think I have learned absolutely nothing on how to function well anywhere higher than rock-bottom on Tuluk's social ladder. I'm almost 30 years old, and I still don't "get it."

So, when I play Tuluk, I always play right at the rock bottom.

On the few attempts that I have tried to play anything but the rock bottom, I was being pushed from all directions back to the rock bottom.

This is why I prefer Nak over Tuluk. Tuluk is pretty much the harshest social environment there could be. There isn't a single friend to be had in that city. Nak, on the other hand, feels a lot more like the real world to me. Tuluk, everyone is just an asshole.

I haven't found that at all. Maybe it's the characters you always play there? Or maybe it's something you project into your characters' personalities. I've played in Tuluk around the same amount that I've played in Allanak, I usually alternate between those two and Luir's as my characters' "base." Making friends is certainly one thing I've never had a problem with anywhere in the game, with any of my characters.

Now granted, those same friends could turn around a month later and hand you over to the templars, or set their pet gith on you, or run you through with their sword. But that's how the game is supposed to work, so if that's what is happening, then everything is groovy in Zalanthas.

[Harmless]

Now granted, those same friends could turn around a month later and hand you over to the templars, or set their pet gith on you, or run you through with their sword. But that's how the game is supposed to work, so if that's what is happening, then everything is groovy in Zalanthas.

This is exactly what I was getting at. The only times I wasn't eventually betrayed by my so-called Tuluki friends was when I had stored or gotten killed before it could happen. As soon as someone betrays you like that, they cease being your friend, retroactively. They were just waiting for the right time to use you.

In Nak? I dunno. Maybe I've been betrayed by my friends as often in Nak, but somehow, I don't think so. I think I had real friendships in Nak. It's a cultural difference. It's like friendships that form in the hood, versus what wasps do all day, cattily plot each others' ruin.

[Harmless]

I should clarify. I spend a good number of my PCs in Tuluk (and Luir's and Nak, I mean, when you exceed 30 PCs you had to have played everywhere at some point). And I enjoy them. But, my Tuluk PCs are the hardest to play. It's the greatest challenge you can assign yourself, in my opinion. Putting those inks on. I do it when I'm in the mood for failure and loss.

When I play Nakkis, I play to win, more often. I think some of ya'll who know my recent PC from Nak know I played to win with them. That's never my attitude when I play Tuluk.

I've been told, I do a 180 with my PCs in terms of goals, personality, everything. A lot of it has to do with my views of Nak vs Tuluk. Thing is, Tuluk leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth almost every time, whereas Nak leaves me craving more.

[FantasyWriter]

You know, I think that the difference between Allanak and Tuluk, aside from IC lore and whatnot, really boils down to the players. It takes a certain sort of player to enjoy all that Tuluk has to offer. The amount of work that staff has put into the place is admirable, and the quality is really great (I say that as someone who has visited Tuluk from time to time). But as a player, Allanak works for me, and Tuluk, so far, hasn't.

And you know what? I think that's alright. Much like Armageddon caters to a niche of role-players, and SoI to another, and so on and so forth, I think that within our community, a certain niche feel at home up North, while another niche can't be without His Shadow. There are other niche groups who prefer a tribal experience, or an independent role, and will gravitate towards those.

Maybe Tuluk will always err to the side of a lower player population - it always seemed to during my time here, which spans nearly 20 years. With higher numbers of players online, this difference really tends to be less noticeable. I don't really know that more can be done to make Tuluk appealing to those comfortable with Allanak, and I don't know that it should.

I very much agree with this.  Tuluk's harsh brutality is there, hidden just beneath the surface where it belongs, and it can be very intriguing to play there because of it. One of my four favorite PCs was a sponsored role there (the others were one Naki leader, one naki gemmed viv, and one, indie/tribal ungemmed krathi). But as 7DV was saying, it takes a very different playstyle/mindset to thrive there. Many players, especially new ones, however prefer the open conflict as is seen in the rest of the world.  They way Tuluk "works" is very special and intriguing, and I hope that the new vision staff is preparing for it does not stray too far from what makes it so desirable to its diehard fans and secret lovers, like me, when we choose to play there.