Playing a noble

[Elgiva]

Rather than saying, "Doesn't work for me, get rid of it," I'd be interested in hearing constructive suggestions for how to make the northlands, with or without nobles, more interesting for those who seem to find it flawed.

Can anyone make any suggestions along that vein?

I like Tuluk and I like northern Noble Houses. Why? Because it is something different than Merchant Houses, than southern Noble Houses, than templarate. IMHO with two Noble Houses and Jihaens, things are balanced nicely. Indeed, would be cool to see Lirathans opened. But closing Northern Noble Houses would withdraw something unique from the game and I will hate to see that.

Just my 2 sids

[JollyGreenGiant]

Rather than saying, "Doesn't work for me, get rid of it," I'd be interested in hearing constructive suggestions for how to make the northlands, with or without nobles, more interesting for those who seem to find it flawed.

Can anyone make any suggestions along that vein?

In the grand tradition of Tuluk's earlier rebellion, what about a faction of dissidents who grow weary of the Gestapo stranglehold over Tuluk's citizenry and organize an underground movement to overthrow the present order of things.  How does this involve the nobility?  Smelling blood (and the potential for an increase in their own power), perhaps this faction gains subtle but definite support from elements within the noble Houses, perhaps to the point that even the noble Houses become secretly divided among those who support the rebels, and those who don't.

As I was writing this, the movie Equilibrium suddenly came to mind.  Perhaps even the odd Templar or two would end up secretly aiding the rebellion... or perhaps in the end, the movement would be wiped out.  Ideally, rebel leaders would be subtle enough to use people for their own goals without the people ever realizing they were accomplishing rebel purposes.

End results?  Who knows.  But it could be interesting.  Workable in game?  I don't know.  I'm just throwing out ideas.

[Revelations]

From what I've read so far, I think the main thing people want in Tuluk is more...conflict, for lack of a better word. I havn't yet been exposed to Tuluki politics and such, so I wouldn't really know how it is there currently, but I think lack of visible signs of trouble and intrigue would condition players to be comfortable and safe-feeling, ultimately making it boring. And, if conflict was to hit you in the face, you still wouldn't know because it's suppose to be -subtle- up there.

Now Allanak, you could could find in every corner if you wanted to look for it.. :roll:

But aside from that, I wouldn't mind playing in Tuluk because of the different flavor of playing style and culture that is there, but that is practically the only thing that would motivate me to try it out again. If it had more aspects of conflict, but with the visible Tuluki grace instead of cut-throat Naki style, then it would be better.

[Cuusardo]

Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it's not there.

[Anonymous]

I'd be interested in hearing constructive suggestions for how to make the northlands, with or without nobles, more interesting for those who seem to find it flawed.

Can anyone make any suggestions along that vein?

My favorite place in the entire game was the pre-rebellion Northlands during the Allanaki occupation.  It was a wonderful place, simply wonderful.  The politics were low key and at times nonexistent and most of the time you had little in the way of nobles or templars dominating the social scenes.  It was a great place for a change of pace and losing stamina to walk from the Sun King's Sanctuary to Freil's made it feel all the more rugged.  I'm stating this so people understand where I'm coming from, I don't have some grudge against Tuluk because I think Allanak is better.

Beyond closing northern nobles, if at least for an observational period, I think that Tuluk would be better served by focusing more on the tribal aspects and the hatred of Allanak than the whole Orwellian society thing.  Don't get me wrong, the subtly frightening aspects of Tuluk, people disappearing, etc, are awesome and would make it one of my favorite areas to play if we had a larger population, but we don't.  It's my impression that a lot of conflict is lost from the region because people are so busy trying to be subtle and then the person they are trying to have disappear gets killed by a tembo.  I'm not saying people shouldn't be subtle if they choose, but from my viewpoint the playerbase is too small and character turnover is too great for a large focus on subtle conflict to be a benefit.

Secondly I think Tuluk would be well-suited for some isolationism from southerners.  I'd like to see a less tolerant stance on southerners in Tuluk including those who work for merchant houses.  I think of Poland or France after the war and I can imagine it was a very hard place to be for a German person, regardless of whether or not they were working for some big multi-national corporation or were immigrants.  In a less technological society I imagine it would be an order of magnitude worse for those from the same city as the deposed conquerors.

Thirdly, I do think closing the northern nobility would help noble roles as a whole by concentrating them in a single area again.  Familiarity breeds contempt and the more peers someone has to roleplay with the chances for interaction/conflict/plots/creativity increases exponentially with each additional noble in a city.  I understand why people think that it would be harmful for Tuluk but in looking back at how the nobles were reintroduced to Tuluk (from my perspective it was from out of nowhere and voila, instant tiered society) I'm not sure that would be the case.  A city ruled by templars who are constantly being wooed by this merchant house or this rich trader seems like an interesting change from Allanak.  There could be divisions within either Templar order, similar to the Allanaki templars but allowed for player characters, for templars that watch over the city's trade, infrastructure and safety.  These divisions of power could be just one way that templars would find strife/politics between each other as a templar in charge of trade tries to thwart a rivals plan from the infrastructure division to make a road change that would lower the profitabilty of a given street corner, etc.  The best part about the notion of closing the northern nobility is that it doesn't need to be permanent.  If after a certain timeframe it's determined the playerbase is better served by having them open for play that can be done, obviously.

Lastly, I'd like to see Tuluk exert more control over it's surrounding environment and the relatively large cache of raw materials nearby.  Similar to how Allanak has control of all nearby crop-bearing fields, Tuluk should be taking control of the forests and the grasslands in some portion.  Making the best or most accessible areas the domain of one or another merchant house (at a premium, of course) I think would help put a little much needed squeeze on the independents and making playing for a merchant house, a necessity if the nobles are closed, more appealing not just for monetary sake but for the increased chances for outdoorsy gameplay, something I know I sorely miss when relegated to guard-bot duty.

[Revelations]

Nicely put, CRW.

It's my impression that a lot of conflict is lost from the region because people are so busy trying to be subtle and then the person they are trying to have disappear gets killed by a tembo. I'm not saying people shouldn't be subtle if they choose, but from my viewpoint the playerbase is too small and character turnover is too great for a large focus on subtle conflict to be a benefit.

I agree, from my experience there so far and from what I hear.

[Delirium]

Very nicely put, CRW.

I also like the idea of more "things to do" for guard or soldier-types.

Patrolling an area of land near the city and keeping it safe from intruders, poachers, hostiles, would be something directly PC-affected and have visible results that depend on PC influence, which I like.

p.s. Who says we can't do this under current circumstances, actually?

[sacac]

Wow CRW.

And besides, people go missing in Allanak too.

[Delirium]

Thinking about it, closing northern Nobility could also free up some Immortal time to focus more energy on specific clans or other areas, instead of being quite as spread out.

As far as territory beyond the city, I'd like to see tribals and halflings getting a little more hostile toward those city people coming and taking all their food and resources.  Problem with that is that it isn't as PC driven, unless we open some northern tribes and re-open halflings.

[Vox]

CRW and I are definitely on the same wavelength as far as this thread is concerned.  His most recent Post mirrors my sentiments exactly...

To add to it, however, in response to Vanth's request for more constructive feedback:

The Tuluk of old, before it was destroyed, was an awesome city. It was the first place I started playing the game in and I got to know the layout intimately. The Blue Vestric was my first tavern experience, and much like the Gaj was located only a few steps within the gates. It even had its own 'rinth-esque' area in the Crater itself. The coolest man in the North at that time was Khann of Salarr.. The immense, ebon-skinned man of doom. One of the greatest characters to have ever walked the game in my opinion.  A merchant by trade, this guy had his hands into everything and even started his own group of Mercenary fighters called the J'karr, or something.  He was a mover and a shaker... and at a time when there was no PC Templarate or Nobility in the North, this led to the Merchants creating the tiers of society.

We made a trip to Allanak once in the Desert Rose and man was the tension high... People were frightened of the Black City and all it represented, Templars and Nobles scheming all over, back-alley deals, etc. There were some that were too frightened to get off the wagon.

Now it seems as though people travel to and from the respective cities as though they were simply sight-seeing, travelers with bone-rimmed polaroid cameras slung around their necks and flower-patterened sandcloth shorts on. "Ooh, look honey, SLAVES!"

Then Tuluk was destroyed and a new dynamic was created... For those that actually RPed in Tuluk before it was destroyed the loss was tangible. It meant something that cataclysm had obliterated the entire city. And Playerbase focus shifted dramatically to Allanak. Those who wanted to play in the North played much like CRW mentioned, rugged... The Rebellion was awesome and the conflict between the struggling Rebellion and the southern invaders was intense.  Good times.  Especially in Allanak where there were Nobles and Templars galore.

But there was a stark difference between the two regions and there was stark contrast.

Then Tuluk freed itself and rebuilt. And as though someone had waved a magick wand TWO Noble houses appear out of NOWHERE with histories and a whole way of calling people Faithful and Chosen that never existed previous. BLAM! And my apologies to the Imm/Imms in charge of the first redesign but WOW... It was simply huge and the rooms were simply copied and pasted in large amounts with exactly the same descriptions. It took literally HOURS to get around and if you were trying to meet someone at a particular gate, it'd be literally the next day when you got there.  Now don't get me wrong, I'm sure the intention was good.. But the execution of the idea was simply impractical. Take the old layout of New Tuluk to an engineer and they'd fall over laughing. Thankfully, having heard the many complaints from the playerbase the roads were shortened somewhat and getting around became slightly easier.  But the layout of the city, except for Freil's rest is still awkward. One doesn't get the impression that it sprung up around the Ivory Tower in any sort of intuitive way, and there's little to no seen influence from the last existence of Tuluk...

Alright, so here we are.. The New Tuluk with the slightly shortened roads and two Noble Houses. Tenneshi seems to be a mirror of Tor and Winrothol a mirror of Borsail. Up springs 2 more taverns in addition to the Sanctuary and the Freil's Rest one and it seems the whole concept is attempting to duplicate Allanak. Sure there's subtle differences and there's more dramatic differences but the essence remains the same. Basically it's Allanak with more bards and lumberjacks instead of obsidian miners... The real difference, for some reason the denizens of Tuluk seem to be pacified, and as many have called them 'tree-hugging fluffy bunny lovers.' Maybe that's because of this whole 'subtle' thing.. Which in my impression is an excuse for inactivity. Where's the conflict? Shh, it's subtle you'll wake it up.

Ok, so that's the jist of where I'm coming from and these are my suggestions on helping the situation be more fun for everyone involved:

1) Close down the Northern Noble Houses to players and re-open Fale in Allanak.
2) Take on more Templars in the North and if the Lirathan order is just too powerful make a mid-tier between Red and White, perhaps a special order created by Utep. Much like Allanak has several Ministries with it's Templarate, deliniate responsibility over the city to the Templars.  Slaving, defense, city maintenance and commerce, etc. Back in the day the biggest slave population were Legionairres, where did they go?
3) Shift the Northern focus to honor Merchants and forester/gatherers, those contributing to the city should be rewarded with status and you develop a natural tier that any who wish to contribute can join and climb. This whole 'bunny-hugging' quality can be put to the task as people in the North feel like a community helping each other survive, while at the same time attempting to climb to levels of status in the community.
4) Stoke the flames of conflict between North and South once more, this uneasy peace business is simply a lack of overt conflict that leaves people in a grey area of how to act. The different accented peoples should despise each other blindly and constantly. Old Tuluk used to have some of the finest Elementalist Temples, now because of the cataclysm magickers are killed on sight. Allanak is full of grand Elementalist temples and gemmed magickers, if there needs to be a reason to hate Allanak enough to want it destroyed, there's a big one.

Finally, if you've unfortunately ruled out the idea of closing down the Northern Noble Houses then I would simply advise focusing on the Tribal culture of Tuluk. It's king is a Barbarian who united the tribes of Gol-Krathu, even in the last conflict the Mutants came to the aide of Tuluk.. More tribals. There's a flourishing Tribal Market... That's why the refined politics seems out of place to me, it's so Southern in my eyes. The North is Tribes and artisans, hunter/gatherers and bards. Simple people who just want to survive and contribute to their society.  That creates a stark difference between North and South.  The south is like the Romans and the North like the Germanic tribes of old... maybe not so barbaric but they should still have a Barbaric feel.

Anyway, that's my EXTREMELY long-winded opinion. Thanks to those who read the whole thing and didn't skim. :shock:

[Elgiva]

Tenneshi seems to be a mirror of Tor...

Umm... that is simply wrong.

Anyway... closing Noble Houses would hurt current North/South tension. If you close Noble Houses, Southerns will have only northern templars to plot against, which is not enough.

Also, having three Noble houses and templarate in South and only templarate in North will make things unbalanced. Merchants are... merchants, they usually have not much reason to be involved in North/South fights.

[Dracul]

I like the idea alot.

And I'm working for it ICly.

[Revelations]

Anyway... closing Noble Houses would hurt current North/South tension. If you close Noble Houses, Southerns will have only northern templars to plot against, which is not enough.

Also, having three Noble houses and templarate in South and only templarate in North will make things unbalanced. Merchants are... merchants, they usually have not much reason to be involved in North/South fights.

Well, after the beautifully written posts by Vox and CRW, to tell the truth, it'll take abit more than that to change my opinion... :wink:

Now, why would southern nobility need to contend with northern nobility when they are each on the other side of the Known World? If any influence is to cross the desert and plains to Allanak, it'll have to be some major actions, and those can be perfectly exectuted by the Tuluki templarate.

And how would things be unbalanced? You didn't quite explain that part. Vox and CRW just gave some great reasons why it would and could be balanced. And if a merchant house a stronger hold in the north, why would they not be involved in north/south fights? If a major benefactor of their wares was to be elliminated, would they not do what they can to give some aid?

[sacac]

Anyway... closing Noble Houses would hurt current North/South tension. If you close Noble Houses, Southerns will have only northern templars to plot against, which is not enough.

Also, having three Noble houses and templarate in South and only templarate in North will make things unbalanced. Merchants are... merchants, they usually have not much reason to be involved in North/South fights.

Whats wrong with only targetting northern Templars? They have an easy life. Always plotting, and never getting plotted.

Merchants have tons of reasons to get the two to fight.
If salarr get the two to fight, then they sell weapons and armor to both sides.
Kurac can sell spice and wagons to both sides.
Kadius can sell... stuff too.

[Krath]

I originally was against this idea...But I am now in favor of everything both Vox and CRW
wrote.

[Elgiva]

Anyway... closing Noble Houses would hurt current North/South tension. If you close Noble Houses, Southerns will have only northern templars to plot against, which is not enough.

Also, having three Noble houses and templarate in South and only templarate in North will make things unbalanced. Merchants are... merchants, they usually have not much reason to be involved in North/South fights.

Whats wrong with only targetting northern Templars? They have an easy life. Always plotting, and never getting plotted.

Merchants have tons of reasons to get the two to fight.
If salarr get the two to fight, then they sell weapons and armor to both sides.
Kurac can sell spice and wagons to both sides.
Kadius can sell... stuff too.

Merchants wants two sides to fight. Merchants do not want to be involved in that fight themselves. If we have three noble houses plus templarate in South and -only- templarate open in north... South will have more PC force againt North. And however there are VNPCs all around, VNPCs are not starting evil plots, or at least not often. The battle would be like: BorsailxJihaen, TorxJihaen, FalexJihaen, SouthernTemplaratexJihaen...  Merchants will, of course, sell much more weapons/armor/anything in south. Southern leaders will hire more PCs simply because there will be more Houses... does that not seem to be disbalanced?

PS. Not mentioning there are players who enjoy playing in Northern Noble Houses exactly because it is somewhat unique experience. Northern Noble Houses -are- different than Southern.

[Armaddict]

Indeed, after reading Vox's and...that other long post, I'm swayed.  I think it'd be cool.

My -largest- problems with Tuluk were both mentioned:

1.  Subtlety - This is drastically overplayed, to the point where -everyone- is playing the exact same character, but with different personalities.  No matter what the personality, though, you can pretty much assume what's going to happen.  While it does keep you somewhat on edge with who's your friend who isn't...the repetitiveness of the idea just gets old.

2.  Mirroring Allanak - These are supposed to be completely different cultures, completely different leaders, completely different people, completely different cities.  Why is everything so close to the -same-?!  Awhile back, a document was released describing different fighting styles of the north and south...as far as I've seen, even this is rarely followed, because people make their characters and see a badass weapon, and take that even though it would be different from the fighting style their people generally favor.  There are always exceptions.  When everyone's an exception, it makes the reality of how it should be go away.  (Not to say this is the exact line of thought, just a quick way to put what happens out there )

    I favor the ideas already presented noting the way Tuluk was founded, and still leans towards but without any depth.  It's a tribal place in the middle of a location filled with vast resources.  This place should be -so- much different than Allanak.  Heh.

Kudos on some of these ideas.  In my opinion, they rock.

[sacac]

We wont know until we try.

[Armaddict]

Merchants wants two sides to fight. Merchants do not want to be involved in that fight themselves. If we have three noble houses plus templarate in South and -only- templarate open in north... South will have more PC force againt North.

I would think Merchants would also try to keep as many different customers as possible, to keep demand high.   And if there's -only- templarate in the north, but no noble houses...how does this hurt?  Particularly when people are mentioning having more templars in that northern templarate, in comparison with the south.  (It could be the other thread, not sure.)

It's just a different social structure, there's no -huge- downside to not having noble houses in a society.  Templars can expand into different jobs, and other groups can fill niches that need to be filled in the city.  Then Tuluk would actually be unique, and so would Allanak, rather than this mumbo jumbo about 'balance' in the IC world.  I don't think balance, keeping the north and south fair...is really an issue.  I could be wrong, but the idea of ooc'ly keeping things relatively the same for equality reasons is kind of out of place in this world we're trying to make as believable as possible.

[jstorrie]

To a very large degree the problem with the northern nobility is that fewer people play up north. Shooing the players already up north down south won't fix that; is the situation with the southern nobility so dire that the play there needs propping up?

I liked northern politics the last time I was involved in it, and I in fact plan on getting back in it soon. I certainly wouldn't like to see the northlands nobility get shut down.

[Anael]

Tenneshi seems to be a mirror of Tor...

May I ask what makes you feel that way?

First, I have to say I am one of 'those' northlandish players. Blame the fact my PCs live long. Therefore, at first, I didn't like the idea of closing Noble Houses. I am a bit ambivalent right now, the idea of only the templarate holding the power might be interesting, but I think there'd need to be a much deeper/more transparent differentiation of different branches of the templarate.

Anyway, people are talking a lot about changing the north, but have you ever though of doing exactly the same thing, with Allanak instead?

Now, before all of you (virtually) stone me to a (virtual) death, let me explain (what follows are the thoughts based on my limited knowledge, and I am aware of that):

In another thread on this subject, ERS made a point that there's really no big difference between northern and southern nobles. Perhaps it is so (I don't know. I never played in 'nak, but I think I read enough and talked with the helpers enough to be able to say something. The next character I am planning will be south and I wanted to be prepared), but if they are really just the same... then I really mean my reply in that thread: there's something wrong with southern nobles and they should go and read the gritness/harshness thread, and their local documents a couple of times to realize that.

From OOC, player's point of view, nobles of Northern concept is far more useful for roleplay. They meet with the Commoners all the time (they don't have a separate tavern after all). They work with them, they are supposed to pay artists (thus allowing Bards of the Circles a steady income), to hire people, to be busy in public a lot. Yes, a southern noble player could play around this by claiming his PC to be a 'people person' but that's really just a lame excuse. Yes, it would be bad to think that Northern Nobles really care about Commoners. Hell, they're one different caste (yes, one thing even players in the North often miss). Commoners are disposable tools for nobles, and they most likely realize that - it's their social role. The further we're getting from the Rebellion, the deeper (and more allanak-ish) this difference will be. And that's good. There is some kind of a truce between Nobles and Commoners, though. They are supposed to, and they actually -do- work together. An independant can be very easily hired by a noble for a one-time, menial task, because there is no problem for the independant to get in touch with a noble. You say that it's just the same with Allanak? Then there's something wrong.

IMHO, Tuluki nobles, when played properly, can be much more useful for players, OOCly, than Allanak nobles... when played properly.

And no, the 'subtlety' of Tuluk doesn't have to produce same types of PCs. From a northland player's point of view, that's not the case at all. I see many different characters, with very different personalities. The fun part is that they often -try- to be subtle. Some of them fail, some don't. And some don't bother at all.

Bring the flames on.  

[sacac]

The northern nobles act like rich commoners and the southern nobles are noble and smite the evil poor commoner.

[Elgiva]

The northern nobles act like rich commoners and the southern nobles are noble and smite the evil poor commoner.

-IF- current northern nobles act like nothing more than rich commoners, something is wrong with Tuluk.

[sacac]

How about this.

We do 6 months with only allanak nobility and 6 months with Tuluk Nobility?

[Gaare]

The northern nobles act like rich commoners and the southern nobles are noble and smite the evil poor commoner.

This is an excellent point.

That's really how many of us RP. We speak about tribal culture of Tuluk with strict caste system, and then we RP like Faithfuls and Chosens are like simply rich born citizens.  

In fact, I do understand through history western societies are mostly based on giving praise to direct show of power, IMO that's not the case in every community. Think dervishs of Persia and middle Anatolia, or monks of Tibet.. Those people were highly respected and have power to manipulate and lead countries, but they were kind and silent almost always. So nobles or elites of a given society do not have to smite the evil poor commoner (actually Tuluki nobles do that but not in front of a crowd) to show their power. Chosens and Faithfuls are simply powerful and better then commoners and most of Tuluk commoners -know- it.

Edit: Smoothing.