Whores. How should you feel about the profession on Zalanthas?

[Delusion]

As I said, a whore should be judged on their race, magickal status, and their clients. I think a gemmed whore should just be treated like other gemmed, something to be feared, loathed, and shunned. I think any non-gemmed who uses their services should be treated as even lower, or a madman.

Yep.

But so should anyone else who hires a gemmer to work for them. Excluding Oash, because they're highborn and must know what they're doing or something. And the Arm of the Dragon using them, because Templars. My point is, if your character doesn't denigrate others who associate with <insert undesirable sort here>, then I just don't see why they would single out a prostitute who does, which sometimes happens.

[ShaLeah]

I wouldn't put a whore who is gemmed below or on the same level as a rinthi whore. Rinthi whores are the lowest in Nak. Scariest, sure but a gemmed commoner is still a commoner and there IS a House that will hire gicks. No House hires rinthis so there is some kind of distinction. No Noble House hires elves, again, a distinction in social rank.

If people wanna risk their peckers falling off or their tits shriveling up from kanking gicks, I'd be more apt to condemn those openly, that's just gross. Alternatively I also wouldn't wanna risk pissing off a gick whore and end up with the same thing because for all I know that shit could happen without kanking them too and I feel people who *do* those kinds of things are hiding behind the code because they know the limitations. If gicks are supposed to be feared, you're not going to be pissing them off now, are you? A rinthi whore? I'd totally berate, he can't close up my lady parts or steal my baby's soul with his breath.

This isn't about individual whores or how the ladder goes from worst to best, though. This is about whoring being just like any other regular job and treated without the stigma that real life carries with that profession because it shouldn't exist on Zalanthas and by the length of the discussion I'd say it's a valid concern since people keep trying to look at the individual whore, their social class ranking and everything in between.

Black and white, whoring is a regular job. Like the merc, the salter, the hunter, the butcher, the baker and the candlestick maker.

[Desertman]

Black and white, whoring is a regular job. Like the merc, the salter, the hunter, the butcher, the baker and the candlestick maker.

Except it isn't.

I know you want it to be. I know your argument is, "It is extremely common place."

Being common place doesn't automatically make it "ok".

People don't look down on high class concubines/courtesans/whores. They do look down on low class alley whores, because people associate them as being unskilled low end dirty street trash. Just like shit diggers, which most of the playerbase wrinkles their nose at too, even though they "shouldn't", because everyone is dirty anyways.

That is just the nature of the beast and the profession.

So be it.

(I demand some threads fighting for the fair treatment of shit diggers, because it is a common job for commoners and everyone is dirty just like them anyways and nobody should associate what they do with being dirty just because we would IRL.)

[ShaLeah]

Black and white, whoring is a regular job. Like the merc, the salter, the hunter, the butcher, the baker and the candlestick maker.

Except it isn't.

It should be.

I know you want it to be. I know your argument is, "It is extremely common place."

Being common place doesn't automatically make it "ok".

My argument is that it's 'normal'.  I'd surely put whoring above dung digging.

(I demand some threads fighting for the fair treatment of shit diggers, because it is a common job for commoners and everyone is dirty just like them anyways and nobody should associate what they do with being dirty just because we would IRL.)

I, playing conniving opportunistic bitches would not publicly dishonor the tradition of shit diggers. Why? Because I might need someone to get rid of a body, so I'll be nice to those people. Most people ignore shit diggers. They should do the same with whores!

That is just the nature of the Real Life beast (rearing its ugly head on Zalanthas) and the profession is just like any other.

FTFYA

[Hicksville Hoochie]

People don't look down on high class concubines/courtesans/whores. They do look down on low class alley whores, because people associate them as being unskilled low end dirty street trash. Just like shit diggers, which most of the playerbase wrinkles their nose at too, even though they "shouldn't", because everyone is dirty anyways.

But they're not looking down on them for being whores. They're looking down on them for being unskilled, low end dirty street trash, just like shit diggers. The idea that they're a whore shouldn't factor into it. There is no stigma attached to the profession of whoring itself.

[Harmless]

I can comfortably say that I spoke for a segment of the PC population that wouldn't look down on average whores in my previous posts, let's call it the YOLO-swagger division. My pole position is unASSailable.

[Dar]

I found these two links to be pretty interesting and very much related to the discussion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hetaira

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pornai



For me personally. This discussion ended with Synthesis last post.

[Lizzie]

I found these two links to be pretty interesting and very much related to the discussion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hetaira

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pornai



For me personally. This discussion ended with Synthesis last post.

Synthesis hasn't posted in this thread at all.

[Fathi]

As I said, a whore should be judged on their race, magickal status, and their clients. I think a gemmed whore should just be treated like other gemmed, something to be feared, loathed, and shunned. I think any non-gemmed who uses their services should be treated as even lower, or a madman.

Yep.

But so should anyone else who hires a gemmer to work for them. Excluding Oash, because they're highborn and must know what they're doing or something. And the Arm of the Dragon using them, because Templars. My point is, if your character doesn't denigrate others who associate with <insert undesirable sort here>, then I just don't see why they would single out a prostitute who does, which sometimes happens.

I can see why that would happen.

Look at it this way: a salt digger going out and digging salt with a gemmed must have something wrong with him. People are going to denigrate him and be wary of him and wonder why the hell he is comfortable going out into the wilderness with a gemmer like it's no big deal. Especially if he defends it or says the gemmer is his friend or something.

A prostitute sleeps with a gemmed. There must be something wrong with him, too!

But unlike that salt grebber, the prostitute now goes out and plies his or her trade, sleeping with other people. There's a lot of superstitions about sleeping with gemmers. And however bad it is to go out salting with one, I'm not sure you'd find many people who wouldn't think sleeping with a mage is gravely worse.

I can definitely see there being stigma attached to a prostitute who willingly sleeps with gemmed PCs and then tries to sleep with mundanes.

I'd be mad if I found out my buddy went salting with a magicker, but I'd be a lot madder if I found out my buddy slept with one, even if it paid him.

[RogueGunslinger]

I found these two links to be pretty interesting and very much related to the discussion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hetaira

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pornai



For me personally. This discussion ended with Synthesis last post.

Synthesis hasn't posted in this thread at all.

He meant Cutthroat, I bet.

[X-D]

I have not posted before this because I cannot stop laughing at the people that have said that whore is a "no skill" profession.

But at least I know who to never invite into bed, IRL or mudsexxing.

[FantasyWriter]

Heh, I've thought the same.

[Dar]

Sorry, yeah. For some reason when I think Synthesis, I think "an evil, bloodthirsty, cutthroat"   



nod self.

[Evil]

I think what happens is alot of people take RL into the game with them. Free love is part of Zalanthas as is having multiple sexual partners both male and female and some with even different races. I've played whores myself and had fun with it.

[Suhuy]

Though I am very wary of stone throwing, here are my opinions on the topic. Please understand, I'm not talking about courtesans or high ranking concubines and things of that sort here. For this discussion, or at least my input in it, I'm specifically referring to street prostitutes and brothels, etc.

To say that prostitution was accepted in ancient times is something which, I feel, is or was a) only partially true and b) misunderstood by many players as to what that means. Yes, it was openly accepted in many cultures (though there were occasions where the same societies underwent periods of conservativism on the matter, depending on the emperor or leader in question). But they were still viewed as someone who was being used to perform a service. Dung sweepers also perform a service, I can't help but wonder how well they were treated in ancient times. If someone shouted across Caravan Road, "Shut up and clean that street, you lowly dung sweeper!" no one would blink an eye. But I bet you dollars to donuts that this discussion board and the staff request inbox would be brimming with hostility if one single character even shouted at a prostitute with, "Shut up and get to work, you damn hooker!" Did he insult the profession? Nope, he just called her that which she is. Same thing in the dung sweeper scenario. But I suspect many a player will leap to conclusions and assume the comment is a slander at the mere notion of prostitutes in general (when it's not).

I'd also like to add that in ancient times, as on Zalanthas, mankind understood the concept of venereal diseases and that engaging in sex could potentially result in an STD. They may not have understood the biology behind it, but it's a mistake to assume that only with microscopes and modern science can mankind know that a burning sensation in one's urethra, for example, is a thing which may have been acquired from one's sexual partner. That certainly didn't stop people from engaging in sex acts, understand, but that doesn't mean they were naive to the concept of STDs.

As in my shouting at dung sweepers vs prostitutes example above, I think when people post on the GDB and say they see a lot of mistreatment of whores in game they may be misinterpreting what was said. Are you sure the person was insulting the very concept of prostitution? Let me illustrate what I mean.

A 'Rinthi gang member and his prostitute of a sidekick show up to do business with a rich, nicely dressed merchant. The gang member discusses whatever seedy, underworld transaction they're making. The merchant, while wanting to do business with them, keeps a wary eye on both people and also keeps his distance. The gang member in turn says to the merchant: "Don't worry, mate. I may be in rags, but you can't catch anything from me." There's a pause, he looks at his prostitute friend who came with him, then jokingly adds: "Not from me anyway, heh heh."

Did he just insult the notion of prostitutes in general by badmouthing (however playfully) the hooker in the above scene? I don't think so. But it's just the sort of thing I can see invoking the ire of GDB posters everywhere and leading to multiple threads on the topic. The real irony is that I'll bet any money in these ancient cultures which supposedly accepted prostitution, they still had offensive nicknames for prostitutes and people used them quite freely. It's just that no one really made that much of a fuss about it because they didn't live in a hyper-sensitive society that most of us do today where political incorrectedness can literally lead to a lawsuit in which the "offended" individual reaps a massive fortune from it. Calling someone a stupid hooker would have been as small of a comment as calling a handicapped person a stupid cripple, or a barmaid a stupid servant, etc.

I fly to Thailand many times each year for my job and though it may not entirely compare to what the notion of prostitution must have been like in ancient Greece, Rome, etc., it is still a country which has a general open acceptance of the profession (though I should note it is still technically illegal, but the law turns a blind eye and massage parlors acting as brothels are aplenty). Yet people still make fairly snide comments to their face, or look at them in a certain way. But these comments are just as quickly forgotten and everyone gets on with their day. Even though Bangkok is crawling with hookers, Thais from the same city, from upstanding families, would never ever want to be confused as a hooker themselves. There's very much a stigma behind the profession, despite it's relative acceptance. Do you honestly think it was any different in ancient times? People most probably did insult hookers, but no one bothered to react because life was difficult and you just dealt with it like anything else. Also, most people in ancient times, as in the modern era, do not view a prostitute as someone they want to have as a long term mate. I know a lot of players here like to think that on Arm no one cares how promiscuous you are or how many sexual partners you've had, but if anything in ancient times people cared more about these issues than we do today. It's prudent and evolutionary to want to protect your own genes by ensuring your partner has had few (or no other) partners. This is often why the same people who will pay for a prostitute will also speak ill of them. They just want to get off, that doesn't mean they think highly of the woman (or man) performing the deed for them.

Lastly, I think the opinion of prostitution may vary slightly depending on the location of the game. Allanakis, for example, dress very conservatively by comparison with Tuluk. Behavior of this sort could likely lead to the notion of prostitution being frowned upon (it would, at the very least, make it a thing which is done more privately since it involves the removal of clothes), but, sadly, I think if the game went in this direction there would be a revolt on the GDB, perhaps even a mutiny. Which is a shame, because I'd love to see a distinction like this between the city-states. In the case of tribes I could also see the notion of paying for sex as very frowned upon. Outsiders are outsiders and you should keep your distance from them, and tribes are typically too small, themselves, to have any sort of sex servant role. They may have been found in Native societies such as the Incans or the Mayans, who were vast civilizations, but probably not at all amongst smaller, tent-dwelling tribes and such.

[evilcabbage]

Courtesans and prostitutes are -more- likely to be accepted in Allanak because it's a society that views sexual pleasure between commoners and those of higher blood alike as an acceptable thing. It doesn't stigmatize a commoner and noble sleeping together like Tuluk does.

[Harmless]

hrm. I can't say I agree with every point Suhuy makes. In particular, I caution against using Thailand as a "best case scenario for whores." It isn't. It's a capitalistic, raped by western influence, economically shattered modern nation with a lot of whores by necessity. The prostitution situation there is more similar to south korea, post korean war. Moreover, there are so many values that contradict Zalanthan ones, such as  males > females, women are commodities or a burden, men are the real moneymakers, etc... values that simply never existed in Zalanthas.

At least in the example I chose (Edo Japan), women were legally allowed to read and write, and many of the nation's most cherished works were written by known women -- of the court. Society was strictly hierarchical, and life was a shitty, "might-makes-right" hell for anyone not in the capital city itself. However, within the city was a fortress town, ruled by an iron fist, where murder was basically unheard of (executions of criminals by samurai didn't count of course). In Edo Japan, mothers in the countryside would regularly send their daughters, aged 7 to 13, to Edo to become prostitutes, knowingly, in order to try and have them move up in society. The benefits of being a prostitute in Edo period Japan were many, including wealth, fine clothing, influence on anyone from humble but protective samurai to daimyo. But, importantly, every wealthy, successful Geisha started at the same place, the rock-bottom, a lowly aide to an older, more experienced, and more skilled prostitute, then learned from there the necessary skills of prostitution. Their rank was earned among their peers and their customers both. And nowhere in the entire journey did those geisha have to deal with the kinds of stigma you're discussing here... not to say they didn't have disease, but I addressed that in my first post on the topic.

Oh, and one last point: there was a whole gradation of geisha even during the Edo period, including low class geisha that weren't courtesans at all but just common prostitutes. They, however, benefited socially from the praise and adoration of the highest class geisha. Rather than be insulted (pointless, looks strange for the insulter more than anything) or beaten, they were just used for sex more often. This meant the lower-grade geisha were more likely to get pregnant, have miscarriages and die, or catch STI's and die, but nowhere in the mix was there stigma magically thrown in. I don't get how people assume that such a logical leap is "matter of fact."

[Suhuy]

Courtesans and prostitutes are -more- likely to be accepted in Allanak because it's a society that views sexual pleasure between commoners and those of higher blood alike as an acceptable thing. It doesn't stigmatize a commoner and noble sleeping together like Tuluk does.

I think that's a little too black and white of a simplification here. It doesn't properly reflect the emphasis of hierarchy and social standing, something which is very important in Allanak. Courtesans may quite often sleep with the nobility of Allanak, that is true, but any noble with half a brain would think twice about sleeping with a common street hooker. An act of this sort would be a stain on their reputation, making them the laughing stock of the entire nobles' quarter.

There may be certain types of commoners who sleep with the nobility, but by no means does this mean just any commoner.

[ShaLeah]

Every one of my whores has had at least one noble client. I attribute that to their being non rinthi and clean. By no means wee they courtesans nor concubines.

[Suhuy]

Every one of my whores has had at least one noble client. I attribute that to their being non rinthi and clean. By no means wee they courtesans nor concubines.

Forget the words courtesan and concubine for the moment then. They were commoners from decent backgrounds (as far as one can tell by looking at them at least). That's a big distinction from the average low class commoner NPC you see walking around the commoners' quarter. Go have a look at them. They're meant to represent the bread and butter of Allanak. The 90%. The majority. And most of them are only a hair above the look of a Rinther. In fact, many of them practically are Rinthers by appearance just without the dark, hooded cloak. Regardless of what the noble PCs of Allanak may be doing, the average noble most certainly should not be bringing commoners of this station into their beds. At least not without fear of humiliation.

[Lizzie]

Every one of my whores has had at least one noble client. I attribute that to their being non rinthi and clean. By no means wee they courtesans nor concubines.

Forget the words courtesan and concubine for the moment then. They were commoners from decent backgrounds (as far as one can tell by looking at them at least). That's a big distinction from the average low class commoner NPC you see walking around the commoners' quarter. Go have a look at them. They're meant to represent the bread and butter of Allanak. The 90%. The majority. And most of them are only a hair above the look of a Rinther. In fact, many of them practically are Rinthers by appearance just without the dark, hooded cloak. Regardless of what the noble PCs of Allanak may be doing, the average noble most certainly should not be bringing commoners of this station into their beds. At least not without fear of humiliation.

Humiliation, sand fleas, crotch rot, not to mention any potential taint the whore is bringing into their bed, as a result of that whore having given Joe Drovian a blowjob last Nekrete.

[ShaLeah]

Every one of my whores has had at least one noble client. I attribute that to their being non rinthi and clean. By no means wee they courtesans nor concubines.

Forget the words courtesan and concubine for the moment then. They were commoners from decent backgrounds (as far as one can tell by looking at them at least). That's a big distinction from the average low class commoner NPC you see walking around the commoners' quarter. Go have a look at them. They're meant to represent the bread and butter of Allanak. The 90%. The majority. And most of them are only a hair above the look of a Rinther. In fact, many of them practically are Rinthers by appearance just without the dark, hooded cloak. Regardless of what the noble PCs of Allanak may be doing, the average noble most certainly should not be bringing commoners of this station into their beds. At least not without fear of humiliation.

Maybe in Tuluk. In Allanak I'd beg to differ since they pretty much do what they wish in their bedrooms. Would they do so publicly? No. But I could see a noble in Nak get himself a rinthi thief to supplement his income, finding it keep-worthy, cleaning it up, sending it to the atrium and elevating its station. Bedding it or not.

Lowly commoners hold stigma. No doubt. A profession, other than say, thieves, murderers and raiders, does not. Whoring is a profession like any other.  In Tuluk thieves and murderers are held in pretty high regard. Raiders are pretty much hunted down everywhere.

Anyway, it's about the profession in general and it holding said stigma because of real world morality.

[Suhuy]

Anyway, it's about the profession in general and it holding said stigma because of real world morality.

That's actually not what any of this is about at all. Real world morality has nothing to do with this discussion and I don't think it's ever really, truly affecting that many players' portrayal of their characters in game.

The problem is you're taking a very broad idea and trying to generalize it into an oversimplified, concrete, black and white solution. And it just doesn't work that way. There are too many layers. You can't simply dictate that this is the way it should be across the board, in every level of society, everywhere. That's like saying Americans love Formula 1. Well, sure, some do, but it depends on which Americans you're talking about here.

You can beg to differ about how it works in Allanak all you want, but the fact of the matter is that nobles should be very protective of their image and reputation, and that includes who they associate with. Even more who they are seen to be intimate with. You can play the "well nobles do what they want because they are better than commoners" card, but that by no means assumes they are immune to ridicule. For anyone familiar with the BBC TV series Rome, they will remember the noble character Servilia of the Junii. She was having an affair with Caesar and one of her noble rivals commissioned vandals to paint graffiti all over Rome hinting at the love affair, ruining Servilia's reputation. Now just imagine if a noble were secretly having a romance with, say a half-elf, or a 'Rinther, or an elementalist! And then someone found out. Sure, they're noble, they can "do what they want" because they are "better than you", but they still suffer from the consequences of their actions. And commoners can still secretly paint the walls of the city with graffiti depicting the scandalous liaison, resulting in their noble peers laughing at them to no end.

Nobles do not completely do what they want without consequence. Like celebrities and politicians in this day and age, they are bound by the perception of them from the public. And every time they step foot into the commoners' quarter they know only too well that all eyes are upon them. One wrong action and a scandal will bring ruin and shame to themselves and possibly their entire family. I've said it before, Allanak and Tuluk are very different cultures in many aspects, but they are NOT polar opposites of one another. This is a repeat mistake of many players time and time again. Just because nobles in Tuluk do not sleep with commoners does not presuppose that an Allanaki noble will sleep with any random commoner they encounter.

Like the multilayered situation I've detailed above, the view on prostitution on Zalanthas is also multilayered and cannot fall into one, very simple, cut and dry viewpoint. It depends entirely on the who, where, what and why.

[ShaLeah]

Like the multilayered situation I've detailed above, the view on prostitution on Zalanthas is also multilayered and cannot fall into one, very simple, cut and dry viewpoint. It depends entirely on the who, where, what and why.

It IS about real world morality seeping into the game mindset, if it weren't I wouldn't have made this thread. If I had seen over 7 years of continual play that when people insult whores it wasn't accompanied with "they're just a scumbag whore" when they aren't, even when the insulting party is a rinther or a runner.  That's not stemmed with the gameworld mindset that runs in line with sex slaves being sold and whores on every third corner, with the norm. Now if you're contending that these people are 100% NOT reacting with any shred of real world mindset, I'm going to say you're wrong. By far most seem to be newbies.

[Classclown]