Whores. How should you feel about the profession on Zalanthas?

[Harmless]

What I see here is confusion over what we mean by "respect."

Some of my past PCs have truly "respected" whores in the sense that they were grateful to them. They were grateful for the risks that those whores were taking in order to provide a much-needed, much-wanted service; risk to their own safety, in particular.

In that way, my past PCs were truly loving towards the whores they paid for. They treated them politely both in public and in private. There was never a feeling of, "you're not worth respecting because you do this work." it was always, "I am very thankful that you have, for whatever reason, come to do this work."

If the whore was the kind of whore that voluntarily chose the work, then that was even better.

How we treat whores is up to our character's values. I think we're all in agreement. However, there should, in my opinion, be far more people valuing whores the way I describe above. Who wants to go to the Gaj if every male vNPC in there hasn't been laid for years? It's a much more relaxed environment for everyone if the vNPC males (and females when applicable) have all easily gotten their rocks off. Whores promote societal peace in general, and you don't need to be a scholar to appreciate it, you see it at the base level. People all know, universally, that whores are helping to ease the blue-balls of society.

So, I'm afraid my viewpoint is more correct than Desertman's. My PCs would never think of calling a whore "just a hole," they would just be more focused on the great deed that whore has done, and choose not to care if the whore has other things they'd rather or could be doing.

[Delirium]

The average whore is comparable to a dung sweeper or grebber - unskilled labor. Nothing out of the ordinary but certainly not an enjoyable, safe, or glamorous profession. If they manage to work their way up to higher class clientele, then the game changes- now they're semi-skilled labor. Somewhere around the level of mercenaries, craftspeople. It's not an insult, per se, but it isn't something to be particularly proud of, either, until you become the exception that caters to the higher class.

The real problem I see is that it's difficult for many to roleplay these gradients in a convincing manner.

[Desertman]

Again, it should.

Again, it shouldn't be.

A normal whore should be treated with the same respect as a normal mercenary.

No they shouldn't, because the way they get their respect isn't remotely similar. A normal mercenary is much more dangerous and threatening than a normal whore.

It shouldn't be a might is right mentality according to real world definitions, in Zalanthas might comes in many forms and whoring is and SHOULD be an example of how might can often come in the shape of genitalia.

Might in Zalnthan terms comes from three things. Physical prowess, political prowess, or economical prowess. Genitalia shape prowess isn't on the list. I'm not even sure what that means or what you were shooting for there.

A player character that makes a whore does so with a certain "class" objective. A player who makes a rinthi breed whore, expects to be extra beat up by the Known, a regular person who makes a CHARACTER is by default above those of the same profession present in game because they're not NPCs.

I'm following you here.

I feel it is not appropriate to treat all PC whores like they are the above mentioned breed rinthi 15 sid, disease ridden whore. That whole span between lowest and in your face filthy rich successful above all the whores whore should be played as it is. Normalcy. It's normal and common to be a whore on Zalanthas and when you are doing it because you HAVE TO, you're in the lowest class, but no one in game who plays one HAS to, now do they?

Again, if the person playing the whore has proven they are better than the 15 sid whore from the rinth in social standing due to physical prowess, social prowess, or economic prowess, I have no problem treating them as such.

Until they have proven they are above that though, that is how they get treated.

People wearing no armor and carrying a crappy sword who call themselves mercenaries get treated like shit scrapers until they prove they are more than a shit scraper who happened to get a sword.

Whores who haven't proven they have clout beyond a rinthi street whore get's treated like one until they prove they deserve more respect than that.

[Twilight]

I don't view it as a matter of respect.  It is a matter of stigma.  In Zalanthas, there is no stigma attached to being a whore.

Respect varies whether you are in Nak or Tuluk.  Desertman may be right about the mentality in Nak, but would be dead, completely wrong about mentality in Tuluk.  As in Tuluk, might actually does not make right.  Caste and social station make right, which is backed up by the might of society and expectations thereof, not how personally dangerous you are.

[James de Monet]

This whole thread is TL;DR, but I just wanted to throw out there, for those who complain about the OOC seep of the epithet "whore", just make sure it's not YOUR OOC bias that's tainting things, rather than the person using the word. It's perfectly possible to use the word "whore" the same way one would use the word "mercenary", "grebber", etc. A lot of that connotation is lost when speaking has no subtle intonation.

Just make sure you aren't reading 'this f-ing dirty whore' when people are meaning 'this person over here who trades pleasure for coin'.

That's all.

[Harmless]

Pardon the vulgarity in this post.

Dman, the mercenary with shit armor and a shit weapon is truly shit. They can't kill anything, they're just a meatshield at best.

A rinthi whore, yes, may be diseased, but she can still give a safe handjob. With gloves on, of course. And the rest of her filthy body a fair distance away. Also, you might want to ask this whore to give you this handjob publicly, because then everyone can see, you only got the handjob from the whore, you didn't use any other part of her.

In this equation, I'm afraid most rational Zalanthans would be calling both of these two competing entrepeneurs shitty, but everyone can appreciate a good handjob.

[Desertman]

I don't view it as a matter of respect.  It is a matter of stigma.  In Zalanthas, there is no stigma attached to being a whore.

Respect varies whether you are in Nak or Tuluk.  Desertman may be right about the mentality in Nak, but would be dead, completely wrong about mentality in Tuluk.  As in Tuluk, might actually does not make right.  Caste and social station make right, which is backed up by the might of society and expectations thereof, not how personally dangerous you are.

This is still an issue of might makes right.

The only reason the caste system has power in Tuluk is because it is backed by the threat of physical violence by the ruling powers.

[Desertman]

Pardon the vulgarity in this post.

Dman, the mercenary with shit armor and a shit weapon is truly shit. They can't kill anything, they're just a meatshield at best.

A rinthi whore, yes, may be diseased, but she can still give a safe handjob. With gloves on, of course. And the rest of her filthy body a fair distance away. Also, you might want to ask this whore to give you this handjob publicly, because then everyone can see, you only got the handjob from the whore, you didn't use any other part of her.

In this equation, I'm afraid most rational Zalanthans would be calling both of these two competing careers shitty, but everyone can appreciate a good handjob.

It made me chuckle.

I'll give you that.

[ShaLeah]

Again, it should.

Again, it shouldn't be.

We're just going to have to agree to disagree then and when you play a normal non-filthy whore then you let me know how it went for you. 

A normal whore should be treated with the same respect as a normal mercenary.

No they shouldn't, because the way they get their respect isn't remotely similar. A normal mercenary is much more dangerous and threatening than a normal whore.

Please, a normal mercenary on Zalanthas is a sword for hire, expendable, a meat shield people hire to do dirty work they can't be bothered with. And they die by the droves too. To get respect as a mercenary, you have to last a looooooong long time and survive a shitload of shit. A whore is in danger every day by choice, not by contractual basis.

It shouldn't be a might is right mentality according to real world definitions, in Zalanthas might comes in many forms and whoring is and SHOULD be an example of how might can often come in the shape of genitalia.

Might in Zalnthan terms comes from three things. Physical prowess, political prowess, or economical prowess. Genitalia shape prowess isn't on the list. I'm not even sure what that means or what you were shooting for there.

I was shooting for how whore do have all three of those, the only difference is that in the physical prowess it's linked to the mental prowess pure muscle isn't required to have because using one's body to break down another's walls and become a real threat while appearing NOT to be one is much more dangerous than that big ole sword I see sheathed on your back that I know you can use well. Whore on Zalanthas can be mighty, maybe even more so than that 80 day warrior Byn Sarge.

I feel it is not appropriate to treat all PC whores like they are the above mentioned breed rinthi 15 sid, disease ridden whore. That whole span between lowest and in your face filthy rich successful above all the whores whore should be played as it is. Normalcy. It's normal and common to be a whore on Zalanthas and when you are doing it because you HAVE TO, you're in the lowest class, but no one in game who plays one HAS to, now do they?

Again, if the person playing the whore has proven they are better than the 15 sid whore from the rinth in social standing due to physical prowess, social prowess, or economic prowess, I have no problem treating them as such.

Until they have proven they are above that though, that is how they get treated.

People wearing no armor and carrying a crappy sword who call themselves mercenaries get treated like shit scrapers until they prove they are more than a shit scraper who happened to get a sword.

Whores who haven't proven they have clout beyond a rinthi street whore get's treated like one until they prove they deserve more respect than that.

Two things. One, I've killed more people with my whores than I have ever with any warrior/assassin/mercenary. And two, darlin', if people treated the whore appropriately to what type of whore he/she is, I wouldn't have the thought that it's the real world mentality seeping through. I've watched all whores except Kuraci whores (while in a Kuraci establishment) treated like they're those 15 sid rinthi breed whores. In a world where it's pretty obvious when one IS a rinthi whore and when one isn't, using the term as such allows for a continued illusion that whoring is NOT commonplace.

So maybe the real question is... how commonplace IS it?

[Desertman]

We're just going to have to agree to disagree then and when you play a normal non-filthy whore then you let me know how it went for you. 

Normal whores would typically be filthy. So, moot point. Normal PC whores, might be better off however. There is a difference. The PC population is the exception. You are arguing for Zalnthan norms, which are not ruled by the PC population.

Please, a normal mercenary on Zalanthas is a sword for hire, expendable, a meat shield people hire to do dirty work they can't be bothered with. And they die by the droves too. To get respect as a mercenary, you have to last a looooooong long time and survive a shitload of shit. A whore is in danger every day by choice, not by contractual basis.

A normal whore on Zalanthas is expendable, a hole of meat people hire to do dirty work they don't feel like rubbing out themselves. They die and are raped by the droves too. To get respect as a whore, you have to last a loooooooong long time, and survive a shitload of shit. A whore is in danger every day due to circumstances, not because they have a choice.

(It works both ways there.)

I was shooting for how whore do have all three of those, the only difference is that in the physical prowess it's linked to the mental prowess pure muscle isn't required to have because using one's body to break down another's walls and become a real threat while appearing NOT to be one is much more dangerous than that big ole sword I see sheathed on your back that I know you can use well. Whore on Zalanthas can be mighty, maybe even more so than that 80 day warrior Byn Sarge.

If your whore is a secret assassin or spy, then yes, I agree. But, she isn't dangerous because she is a whore, she is dangerous because she is an assassin or spy, and that is why she is respected and feared.

Being able to blow a 80 day Byn Sarge, but do nothing beyond that, gets you nothing.

Two things. One, I've killed more people with my whores than I have ever with any warrior/assassin/mercenary. And two, darlin', if people treated the whore appropriately to what type of whore he/she is, I wouldn't have the thought that it's the real world mentality seeping through. I've watched all whores except Kuraci whores (while in a Kuraci establishment) treated like they're those 15 sid rinthi breed whores. In a world where it's pretty obvious when one IS a rinthi whore and when one isn't, using the term as such allows for a continued illusion that whoring is NOT commonplace.

So maybe the real question is... how commonplace IS it?

Well, I would have to see logs to agree or disagree. Feel free to PM me. I can't be asked to debate the finer points of situations that I just have to take your word for.

That being said, again, your whores weren't respected or dangerous because they knew how to blow someone, they were respected and dangerous because they could kill people.

They just happened to use whoring as a tool in their arsenal for killing. The killing is what gets the respect, not the whoring.

[Harmless]

Shaleah's mentioning of PKs brings up an important issue, that public brothel locations, or public locations to use for sex, that are only minimally private, are truly the ideal location for whoring. Safety is ensured for both parties this way. Bringing a whore to your apartment should be a nuisance for the whore, who will have to walk farther to get the next client, and a risk to her. Bringing a whore to your apartment who could potentially be an assassin is a risk to you. The brothel is the best way to use a whore, as it has been for ALL time.

(edited to add: or, alley. Because it gives a quick escape, and any shenanigans are more likely to be heard on the street.)

[Scarecrow]

I think the client base is the thing, in my opinion. A whore is just another job, like salting or mining, because Zalanthans are just like that. But, if an average, non-magickal person was kinking everything that moved (including elves, gemmed, breeds, dwarves and such) they would be looked upon as being crazy for doing that. Otherwise I don't see any special stigma towards it. Or I should say, I don't -inflict- any special stigma. Most of my experience is with Allanak, whores are always in the taverns and walking the streets. The average 'Naki would see it just as another job. As for respect, I don't see why a whore would be more/less respected than a mercenary, grebber, miner or whatever. It's just another job. It takes as much skill to be a whore as it does a grebber, miner or whatnot. It should be judged on client base, in my opinion. If you're a filthy looking rinthi who is up for any damn thing with anyone, then yes you can expect to be looked upon like garbage. If you're just the average Zalanthan woman or man who whores their own race only, you shouldn't be seen as anything to be judged lower than another job.
I can't really say for certain in Tuluk. I'm not sure they even have sex.

[bcw81]

Shaleah's mentioning of PKs brings up an important issue, that public brothel locations, or public locations to use for sex, that are only minimally private, are truly the ideal location for whoring. Safety is ensured for both parties this way. Bringing a whore to your apartment should be a nuisance for the whore, who will have to walk farther to get the next client, and a risk to her. Bringing a whore to your apartment who could potentially be an assassin is a risk to you. The brothel is the best way to use a whore, as it has been for ALL time.

(edited to add: or, alley. Because it gives a quick escape, and any shenanigans are more likely to be heard on the street.)

Vennant should really have a row of curtained rooms along one wall for whores.

[ShaLeah]

We're just going to have to agree to disagree then and when you play a normal non-filthy whore then you let me know how it went for you. 

Normal whores would typically be filthy. So, moot point. Normal PC whores, might be ARE better off however. There is a difference. The PC population is the exception. You are arguing for Zalnthan norms, which are not ruled by the PC population.

FTFY - Zalanthan norms is that whoring is a commonplace profession and that in that profession there are several 'you get what you pay for' levels. A normal PC whore not being filthy IS normal, for that PC. So when you play a non-rinthi, clean whore who doesn't fall into the dregs of the filth category, then you can tell me about it.

Please, a normal mercenary on Zalanthas is a sword for hire, expendable, a meat shield people hire to do dirty work they can't be bothered with. And they die by the droves too. To get respect as a mercenary, you have to last a looooooong long time and survive a shitload of shit. A whore is in danger every day by choice, not by contractual basis.

A normal cheap whore on Zalanthas is expendable, a hole of meat people hire to do dirty work they don't feel like rubbing out themselves. They die and are raped by the droves tooif they're stupid. To get respect as a whore, you have to last a loooooooong long time, and survive a shitload of shit. A whore is in danger every day due to circumstances, not because they have a BY choice, unless they are the worst of the worst whores and HAVE to do it in order for their survival.

(It works both ways there.)

FTFY too. Now it works great!

I was shooting for how whore do have all three of those, the only difference is that in the physical prowess it's linked to the mental prowess pure muscle isn't required to have because using one's body to break down another's walls and become a real threat while appearing NOT to be one is much more dangerous than that big ole sword I see sheathed on your back that I know you can use well. Whore on Zalanthas can be mighty, maybe even more so than that 80 day warrior Byn Sarge.

If your whore is a secret assassin or spy, then yes, I agree. But, she isn't dangerous because she is a whore, she is dangerous because she is an assassin or spy, and that is why she is respected and feared.

Being able to blow a 80 day Byn Sarge, but do nothing beyond that, gets you nothing.

Two things. One, I've killed more people with my whores than I have ever with any warrior/assassin/mercenary. And two, darlin', if people treated the whore appropriately to what type of whore he/she is, I wouldn't have the thought that it's the real world mentality seeping through. I've watched all whores except Kuraci whores (while in a Kuraci establishment) treated like they're those 15 sid rinthi breed whores. In a world where it's pretty obvious when one IS a rinthi whore and when one isn't, using the term as such allows for a continued illusion that whoring is NOT commonplace.

So maybe the real question is... how commonplace IS it?

Well, I would have to see logs to agree or disagree. Feel free to PM me. I can't be asked to debate the finer points of situations that I just have to take your word for.

That being said, again, your whores weren't respected or dangerous because they knew how to blow someone, they were respected and dangerous because they could kill people.

They just happened to use whoring as a tool in their arsenal for killing. The killing is what gets the respect, not the whoring.

I never killed them by lifting a single weapon. No coded "illusion" of pretending to be a whore and actually being an assassin or warrior. Just because she was a whore that had done the right things to be in a position to do so. Guess maybe I play above normal whores, whores that GOT dangerous all cause they knew how to blow someone.

Sometimes I crack myself up.

[evilcabbage]

stuff

Blowing the right guy can give you might

[Hicksville Hoochie]

In Zalanthas, there is no stigma attached to being a whore.

I don't have much to say, aside from my post in the RAT thread, but I think this might be the most important point made in this entire thread, and the one that people should look closest to.

Whore is not a derogatory term, just as slave is not a derogatory term. Make up any clever amount of terms you like to degrade a dirtleg type of whore you wish (and this would be doing so, not because they're whores, but because they're bad at it), but the word 'whore' itself, should not have ANY ill-meaning whatsoever in Zalanthas.

[Red Ranger]

In Zalanthas, there is no stigma attached to being a whore.

I don't have much to say, aside from my post in the RAT thread, but I think this might be the most important point made in this entire thread, and the one that people should look closest to.

Whore is not a derogatory term, just as slave is not a derogatory term. Make up any clever amount of terms you like to degrade a dirtleg type of whore you wish (and this would be doing so, not because they're whores, but because they're bad at it), but the word 'whore' itself, should not have ANY ill-meaning whatsoever in Zalanthas.

But, but... sex workers don't spar all the time, they don't necessarily have lots of coded skills, and they are spooge-filled pieces of garbage!  I want my newb dorf mercenary (who will be dead in a week) to yell garbled insults at those sex workers for being sex workers, and I don't want to feel bad about it!

IMO, it's pretty simple.  In Zalanthas practitioners of very few professions are IC'ly deserving of respect without having earned it first.  Two that aren't among the few rare exceptions are sex workers and mercenaries.  Also, it shouldn't be hard to find reasons to insult other PCs IC'ly without having to resort to RL biases that don't exist IC'ly in Zalanthas.  Be creative people!

[Narf]

You know what would solve this issue once and for all?

A Whore's guild...

Dude, that would be so incredibly awesome. You have the whores, you have the pimps, you have the muscle, you have the physicians and they all get organized and where their little gang colors... errr, guild symbols. And when people start mouthing off to (guild affiliated) whores, or about whoring in general, they get a little visit from Guido and his half-giant 'assistant'.

Why has no one done this yet?

[ShaLeah]

You know what would solve this issue once and for all?

A Whore's guild...

Dude, that would be so incredibly awesome. You have the whores, you have the pimps, you have the muscle, you have the physicians and they all get organized and where their little gang colors... errr, guild symbols. And when people start mouthing off to (guild affiliated) whores, or about whoring in general, they get a little visit from Guido and his half-giant 'assistant'.

Why has no one done this yet?

You know, that might not be a bad idea.
Poisons, listen, haggle, flee, sap, stabbing skill and no other. Voila, whore guild.  Then maybe people can stop assuming they're mindbenders too!

[Malken]

You know, that might not be a bad idea.
Poisons, listen, haggle, flee, sap, stabbing skill and no other. Voila, whore guild.  Then maybe people can stop assuming they're mindbenders too!

Yeah, it's called the assassin guild.

[RogueGunslinger]

I think he meant clan, not guild.

[ShaLeah]

You know, that might not be a bad idea.
Poisons, listen, haggle, flee, sap, stabbing skill and no other. Voila, whore guild.  Then maybe people can stop assuming they're mindbenders too!

Yeah, it's called the assassin guild.

No, if there was a whore guild no one would question your guild choices. Or maybe as much. And then they wouldn't be watching you like a hawk to see if you're really a merchant waiting for a House position or an assassin/burglar or hidden bender. Whore guild!

[Narf]

guild

/gild/

noun

noun: guild; plural noun: guilds; noun: gild; plural noun: gilds

1.

a medieval association of craftsmen or merchants, often having considerable power.

...

That was the definition I was using in this case.

[Desertman]

Stuff....

Your entire argument appears to have changed from, "Whoring is exactly like -THIS- in Zalanthas." to, "PC whores should be treated different from NPC and VNPC whores because they are different from normal Zalanthan whores."

I agree with your point. PC whores who prove themselves to be better than common whores should not be degraded as common whores.

[ShaLeah]

Stuff....

Your entire argument appears to have changed from, "Whoring is exactly like -THIS- in Zalanthas." to, "PC whores should be treated different from NPC and VNPC whores because they are different from normal Zalanthan whores."

I agree with your point. PC whores who prove themselves to be better than common whores should not be degraded as common whores.

Now now, just cause you're tired doesn't mean you get to slack. My entire point is that whores shouldn't be treated according to real life moral standards  (which is how I've chosen to think the majority of said witnessed interaction being a cause of, not because of blatant disregard for what is normal and not on Zalanthas) and everyone is saying but we're NOT when they are so we're just clarifying the different levels of whoring for those who weren't even aware there were such levels. I'm also saying that your use of common whore refers to low class whores where my use of common whores is NOT low class and in fact should be used as the term commoner. That there should be more common whores than cheap, low whores.