On Tribes

[FantasyWriter]

From the RAT derail:

I brought this up in staff announcement a few years ago:

Quote
If you want to play a human tribal from a virtual (non-coded) human tribe, then you can choose the nomad subguild, whatever guild and starting location you like, and get on your merry way with doing that. Do be aware that if you are taking this option, you still can't recruit other PCs (either OOCly or ICly) to join your tribe.


I've been looking over all the rules (official and policy changes in the Staff Announcement folder).

I was and still am under the impression that we could still form groups of PCs in game so long as a) all work is done in character, realistically within the scope of the game world, and follows existing documentation and b) the concept does not require or expect staff support such as new buildings, a coded clan, special gear, etc.

My question is: Under the new "Player-Driven" policy, are we no longer allowed to form/participate in in-game groups of player characters (such as desert tribes, merc groups, raider bands, and merchantile organizations) other than staff-supported, coded clans?

And I was told:

You can form a group, but you can't form a "tribe." A group has a purpose behind it, usually to do business of a certain type (mercenary work, raiding work, crafting work, hunting work, etc.). A tribe is very different from that, and it makes no sense at all to try to form a "tribe" through in-character actions. As I said elsewhere, a tribe by Zalanthan definition (and Earth too) has characteristics such as being a group of same-race humanoids who are all related by blood, and sharing the purpose of survival as a group and some common inherited culture. Groups formed in game through PC action have none of those things, therefore they are not a "tribe."

Problems with this response:




What's in a name?

In short, the definition given in the response took tiny snippets out of "Earth" definitions and excluded the majority of text and context.

Staff Response's Definition of a tribe:

... a tribe by Zalanthan definition (and Earth too) has characteristics such as being a group of same-race humanoids who are all related by blood, and sharing the purpose of survival as a group and some common inherited culture. Groups formed in game through PC action have none of those things, therefore they are not a "tribe."

Wikipedia's Definition of a tribe:

A tribe is viewed, historically or developmentally, as a social group existing before the development of, or outside of, states. Many people used the term tribal society to refer to societies organized largely on the basis of social, especially corporate, descent groups (see clan and kinship).

Merriam Webster's Definitions of a tribe:

tribe
noun \ˈtrīb\

: a group of people that includes many families and relatives who have the same language, customs, and beliefs

: a large family

: a group of people who have the same job or interest

Full Definition of TRIBE
1
a :  a social group comprising numerous families, clans, or generations together with slaves, dependents, or adopted strangers
b :  a political division of the Roman people originally representing one of the three original tribes of ancient Rome
c :  phyle
2
:  a group of persons having a common character, occupation, or interest
3
:  a category of taxonomic classification ranking below a subfamily; also :  a natural group irrespective of taxonomic rank <the cat tribe> <the rose tribe>

Examples of TRIBE

   a tribe of artists with wild hair and casual manners
   <the wedding joined the two tribes together>

Oxford British and World English Dictionary's Definition of Tribe:

noun

   1a social division in a traditional society consisting of families or communities linked by social, economic, religious, or blood ties, with a common culture and dialect, typically having a recognized leader:indigenous Indian tribes
   (in ancient Rome) each of several political divisions, originally three, later thirty, ultimately thirty-five.
   often derogatory a distinctive or close-knit group:she made a stand against the social codes of her English middle-class tribe brands are adopted by a tribe of users an outburst against the whole tribe of theoreticians
   informal a large number of people:tribes of children playing under the watchful eyes of nurses

   2 Biology a taxonomic category that ranks above genus and below family or subfamily, usually ending in -ini (in zoology) or -eae (in botany).

Static v. Origin, Waxing, Waning, and Colapse

Tribes, both in the real world and in the in-character world of Zalanthas, have to start somewhere. There are two major ways this happens: either a group breaks off from a larger group, or a group slowly grows from an individual, family group or band. Yes, from an OOC standpoint, Zalanthan tribes have always been "tribes." I believe most of the player created tribes that have been and are still around were brought forth as already fleshed-out virtual tribes.  But let's take a look at Zalanthan history to see that tribes are not static, but come and go as the ages wear on:

   The Dragon rules the Known World for four hundred years. Most life, poisoned by the Dragon's magick, spread black plagues among the populations. Elves, dwarves, and men scatter to the furthest reaches of the realm to avoid the terrible Dragon, his dread servants, and the killing plagues which accompanied them.

   The Dragon, for reasons unknown, departs the Known World. The empire of the Dragon, unable to function, crumbles within five years.
...

c.170 (Year 16 Age 3)
   Nomadic tribes begin to settle at Vrun Driath and Gol Krathu.
...

1149 (Year 71 Age 15)
   The last members of the ancient tribes are presumed dead. The fierce warfare between the tribes deprives them of sufficient numbers to survive, and the Clans vanish. Feudalism declines, accompanied by a rise in mercantilism.
...

1394 (Year 8 Age 19)
   The joint forces of the Clear Waters Oasis tribe and the Ironsword clan attack Allanak's obsidian mine, managing to free the slaves. Thrain Ironsword dies in the battle along with several templars. After the attack the Clear Waters Oasis tribe, joined by a horde of former slaves, lay siege to Allanak. During this time, Tektolnes is mysteriously absent.

[FantasyWriter]

Furthermore, IIRC. At least a few coded "tribes" have procedures, for lack of a better word, for excepting new members into the tribe.

[HavokBlue]

The Jaxa Pah and the Akei'Sjir both accepted non-blooded members in some capacity, so obviously not everyone in a tribe has to be a blood relative.

I can think of at least one tribe in game that did not originate from a group of blooded family members, so obviously tribes aren't solely limited to blooded family.

I think it's been said in the past that tribeless elves could come to see their clan (ie. the Byn or Kurac) as a tribe. So I'm finding it difficult to understand why players wouldn't be allowed to formulate such a group entirely in-game. It's not like they're asking for a coded camp and staff support.

[Cutthroat]

The answer is no, you can't recruit someone into your tribe in-game.  It's the same perpetuation of the problem we try to prevent with the family roles rules.

The problem presumably being OOC cooperation between players in an effort to form a cohesive group within the game.

That being said, indie groups rise and fall. If an indie group was started by an elf, and he happened to only hire tribeless elves, would they eventually be considered a tribe? Is it expected to take years, or does it take generations before tribal culture and customs start to be defined? It's a bit confusing as there isn't really a well-known precedent for this. But if it takes an extremely long time to form a cohesive tribe on the level of the coded elven tribes, then that might be a reason that tribal recruitment is restricted - maybe you simply can't go from nothing, to a full-fledged tribe, in your PC's lifetime.

But I also take the staff attitude on this to mean you can still form an elven family, in which all the PCs are close relatives, using the typical family role process of submitting the idea to staff for approval then posting about it in Player Announcements. And they would technically be a tribe too, though only between those 2-4 players plus immediate vNPC family. You just can't then recruit people into that family/tribe, but of course you could still interact with elves outside of the tribe in various ways.

The other, largely OOC reason from the game's perspective that staff might have is that it concentrates what very few city elven PCs there are into the few clans that accept them, ensuring that the elven RP experience isn't diluted by elven PCs being scattered around the world, each with their own virtual tribe of 1 PC.

Players seem to have the option to test these boundaries out, within reason, and I guess if they can justify becoming a full-blown tribe from relatively humble beginnings, I don't really see a reason why staff would or should stop them.

[joyofdiscord]

Not really convinced by the dictionary mining.  They strongly support the notion that a tribe is a tightly knit kin group defined primarily by blood and marriage relationships.  Other uses, like people of the same occupation, are metaphorical or loose uses.  Like one might call a group of co-workers or friends "family."  It shouldn't muddle our understanding of what is actually being referred to.

And yes, tribes start somewhere.  They start with families that get larger and larger over generations -- i.e. a plot arc so long that PCs can't realistically play them out, because by definition they would take longer than any one PCs life.

I really don't see any way around it.  It just isn't possible to form a new tribe in-game at the level we engage with the game world.  It's like the difference between the Sims and SimCity.  Also, maybe in a future utopia, if we had pbase numbers of about 200-400 on at peak, with a contingent of long-lived PCs, and a viable, standardized way of generating new PCs through IC offspring, then maybe, just maybe, a tribe could actually form organically and it might make sense.  Not the way we play now.

That said, since coded tribes IC have customs for accepting new members, I don't see any IC reason why a PC tribe partially represented by a PC family formed in accordance with family role guidelines couldn't have the same kinds of customs.  As Cutthroat points out, the prohibition seems quite clearly OOC-based.

[Nyr]

Problems with this response:

Just to clarify, these are your problems with a response given more than three years ago by a storyteller on an Ask the Staff question, a response which touched very lightly on one question.  Still, let's go over it.

What's in a name?

In short, the definition given in the response took tiny snippets out of "Earth" definitions and excluded the majority of text and context.

Staff Response's Definition of a tribe:

... a tribe by Zalanthan definition (and Earth too) has characteristics such as being a group of same-race humanoids who are all related by blood, and sharing the purpose of survival as a group and some common inherited culture. Groups formed in game through PC action have none of those things, therefore they are not a "tribe."

Yes, that's pretty close to what we on staff would say a tribe is in Zalanthas.  And there are probably more of them.  And PCs can't play in too many tribes that can recruit IC (there are a couple of exceptions, staff-supported/coded clans).  And that's how the game is and we're pretty happy with that.

Yep, the prohibition on no player-created tribes that recruit IC is completely OOC-based.

[Fujikoma]

Allanaki city elves are at a distinct disadvantage... Supposedly the tribes exist, somewhere, in the vNPC community, so you don't necessarily have to build it from scratch from a tiny family of PCs over generations, which simply wouldn't really be sustainable.

While, oh, maybe in the future the Jaxa Pah will be an option, still, maybe the elves from southside would rather not identify too closely with rinthi elves.

It becomes really difficult to play an Allanaki city elf under these conditions, but maybe I'm just not thinking creatively enough.

[Iiyola]

*whines*

Please open the Jaxaaaaaa?

[RogueGunslinger]

*whines*

Please open the Jaxaaaaaa?

Hah! I love you guys!


Jaxa Pah plz!!!!!!!!!!1


Plz guys come on plzzzz jus thtis one! wink wink!

[HavokBlue]

So to clarify, a group of elves, family app or otherwise, could congregate in-game and call themselves a the Fuckwood Crew and do all their hunting and killing and drinking and fucking and whatever else, but they can't call themselves the Fuckwood Tribe?

[Dakota]

Jaxa got closed?

Rats.

[Nyr]

So to clarify, a group of elves, family app or otherwise, could congregate in-game and call themselves a the Fuckwood Crew and do all their hunting and killing and drinking and fucking and whatever else, but they can't call themselves the Fuckwood Tribe?

Correct; this is an OOC restriction on PC roles.  Inevitably, someone in the Fuckwood "Tribe" will try to recruit someone else into their tribe.  Perhaps they will get a mate, and say "well my mate is actually part of the tribe now, that's how the tribe works," and then we're stuck dealing with at least a couple of players that have made things incredibly awkward to handle IC.  And yes, we do have to deal with it, because endlessly perpetuating tribes is the same problem as endlessly perpetuating families.

If you want to play a member of a tribe that does recruit under controlled conditions that are laid out carefully and approved by staff, you have limited options.  At this time, I think it's fair to say that we do not feel that the ability to recruit people into a tribal role is integral to a tribal role, so that's why it is rare in-game in the cases where it is allowed (and otherwise disallowed/not part of the documentation/reserved for the most rare of occurrences).

[Bushranger]

If you want to play a member of a tribe that does recruit under controlled conditions that are laid out carefully and approved by staff, you have limited options.  At this time, I think it's fair to say that we do not feel that the ability to recruit people into a tribal role is integral to a tribal role, so that's why it is rare in-game in the cases where it is allowed (and otherwise disallowed/not part of the documentation/reserved for the most rare of occurrences).

Yet tribe is integral to elves. That is what we keep getting told by staff, they point to the documentation on City Elf roleplay and about the tests of loyalty they should give to companions yet at the same time staff are always reminding everyone who is not an elf just how much all elves are sneaky thieves and you shouldn't be friendly towards them. So leaving only other tribeless city elves as valid targets for the loyalty tests, when a pair passes each others tests their natural inclination would be to form a tribe would it not? It's what is in their blood and the role-playing documentation we're directed to follow but suddenly BAM! You're breaking the rules on creating tribes?!

Given that there is no documentation at all about tribes of elves living in Allanak outside of the Labyrinth I would like staff to answer a simple question, yes or no. Are all elves from Allanak proper solitary thieves?

That seems to be the message Nyr is broadcasting. No city elf can try to create a tribe in game nor can they create some virtual tribe for their background that they belong to. Every city elf not from the Labyrinth is, and will forever be, a tribeless elf reject and since the Jaxa Pah is also indefinitely closed so is every elf in Allanak.

[Iiyola]

Unfortunately I have to concur with you, Bushranger. It seems the elves in Nak are 'broken'. They're weak targets, without a tribe. Plain and simple. Despite the fact they can do these loyalty tests, they hardly (if any) are able to rely on anyone else but themselves. To me, it would take away the fun of playing an elf in this city (while elves are actually so cool!).

It's unfortunate. I think elven PC's in Nak always add a little to the atmosphere in that city but all I've seen them do is join the Byn since... well... it's either that or being independent. And I'm not sure with which you are better off...

[Dar]

Personally, I like the no tribe rule entirely from an IC standpoint. I'm gathering that is not the reason why tribes are forbidden, but my preference is entirely IC.

One very important factor, whether elven, or human, is that tribe mates trust each other. They trust their tribe mates infinitely more then any other outsider. Sometimes, across a character's lifetime, he does meet people that he would trust in such manner. Mates, friends, compatriots, brothers and sisters in arms, mostly people who saved their life couple of dozen times. But the amount of people like that could be counted on one hand. They're not suddenly an entire "tribe".

I've brought that example before. The Walking Dead! In there, a group of people from all walks of life gathered up to survive better against hordes of zombies. Those people are very possible one of the few survivors of the entire species. And yet they "still" manage to fuck each other up, betray each other, cheat on each other, murder each other. They are a 'group', not a tribe.

If some players succeeded in creating a group and stayed together for over 20-30 game years. So long that the roots of their creation have long fell into the history, and the creators of the group have long became the folklore of their grown up children. I would argue that this group should start consider calling themselves a tribe. Especially if just saying that they belong to such and such group, would make other people instantly assume some particular type of behavior and beliefs of these group members.

Otherwise, it's just a bunch of people that gather up for whatever reason and want to remove the concepts and possibilities of "betrayal" from the relationships of each other for no good reason. And if "betrayal" still exists, then the entire concept of "tribe" is invalidated.



It is possible to play a tribeless elf, either via virtual tribe, or lonefooting. It 'does' require certain amount of mental ... equalibristics. Only difference is that the groups those elves would form, would be gangs, or groups. Each elf distrusting the other, and somehow trying to sway the group's activities in such a way that would benefit 'their' virtual tribe/their own lonefooted self ... more.

[RogueGunslinger]

I'm not sure I'm understanding you, Bushranger.

We can still make our own tribe, have vnpc tribe members, and even family-app tribal elves with other players. You just can't have a tribe, and integrate other people into that tribe, because apparently staff don't want families to get too big. Same reason why you can't start a family role-call with more than 4 people in it.

Nobody is saying you can't make a tribal city-elf.

[Nyr]

Bushranger:  Tribe is integral to elves.  On that I think we are on the same page. 

However, elves are not the only targets of elven loyalty tests, nor are tribeless city-elves the only target for tribeless city elf loyalty tests.  There are examples of elves forcing other races through tests of trust (it's in the documentation you referred to, if not explicitly then implicitly by virtue of not saying otherwise).

Also, elves that pass loyalty tests with each other do not have any natural inclination to join that person's tribe (or have that person join their tribe) when they pass tests of trust.  That isn't in the documentation.

So no, what you are saying there doesn't follow.

Given that there is no documentation at all about tribes of elves living in Allanak outside of the Labyrinth I would like staff to answer a simple question, yes or no. Are all elves from Allanak proper solitary thieves?

We don't mention every virtual tribe in the documentation.  The answer to your question is no.

That seems to be the message Nyr is broadcasting.

Hopefully I've fixed that!

No city elf can try to create a tribe in game

No city-elf PC can create a tribe in-game that recruits other PC players into it.

nor can they create some virtual tribe for their background that they belong to.

False.

Every city elf not from the Labyrinth is, and will forever be, a tribeless elf reject and since the Jaxa Pah is also indefinitely closed so is every elf in Allanak.

no

[Harmless]

Nyr, do you foresee ways for us to arrange family roles with a little more ease? Maybe without using the GDB at all, like, just submitting a special app for "the next elven PC family that forms in Allanak?" Then, when four people have submitted special apps like that, contact them all and say, "Okay, your family has been formed. The other players are a (age/sex age/sex age/sex,) we think the most sensical role for you is as (father/mother/son/daughter/brother/sister) based on the age makeup, do you agree to this and if so, go ahead and roll it up and we'll send more info in game?

[Bushranger]

We don't mention every virtual tribe in the documentation.  The answer to your question is no.

That seems to be the message Nyr is broadcasting.

Hopefully I've fixed that!

No city elf can try to create a tribe in game

No city-elf PC can create a tribe in-game that recruits other PC players into it.

nor can they create some virtual tribe for their background that they belong to.

False.

Every city elf not from the Labyrinth is, and will forever be, a tribeless elf reject and since the Jaxa Pah is also indefinitely closed so is every elf in Allanak.

no

So City Elves can create virtual background tribes but Desert Elves can not and must belong to one of the listed tribes?

...
Rinthi city elf tribes at this time are closed, and will likely remain so for good reason.  We do highly endorse the use of vtribes to help flesh out the world, however.  Vtribes, both c-and-d-elf have been long used to improve the atmosphere of the game.
...

I was under the impression that you couldn't create d-elf v-tribes--has that changed?

Sorry, this was a mis-statement by myself.  There are v-tribes in place which can be used, for example, Sand Jakhals and Seven Spears.  You can not, however, make up "Delerak's Elf Tribe Of Uber Doom" which hates all templars, goes into a blood rage at the sight of silk, and worships the void, fire, and wind. 

This restriction is in place to prevent a sudden cropping of 200 desert elf vtribes which leave the built and steady real tribes empty of membership because people have a concept that just slightly doesn't fit.

...so it -is- possible to play in existing v-tribes? Such as the Seven Spears or Sand Jakhals?

If you notify and clear it with desert elf staff first, yes, it would be fine.  If not, then no.

I did a quick search and it was posts like this that led me to believe that players creating virtual tribes was forbidden and that documented virtual tribes were to be created. If this is only for desert elves and city elves are allowed to create their own virtual tribes then some of the problems I've seen about city elves being broken is wrong. Just make sure these tribes are quiet and will not, or can not, stand up for any of their members who get into trouble. Got it.

[joyofdiscord]

Also, I'd like to point that two elves of different affiliation making friends and passing each others loyalty tests with flying colors should be kind of rare and unexpected.  It would almost suggest they were kind of crappy elves, when it came to the whole treachery, thievery, and paranoia thing.  I think prohibiting elves from banding together into ad hoc tribes is good because it will keep them properly at arm's length for longer, which they should be anyway, being paranoid, lying, treacherous elves.

After all, elves know about loyalty tests. (Digression, as I'm not sure this is true. Much like dwarves and focuses, to what degree are loyalty tests something that an elf consciously attends to, as opposed to mere instinct?)  How can an elf know that the other elf didn't suspect a loyalty test and pass intentionally?  They would surely suspect it.  Maybe, to an elf, another elf would only truly pass a loyalty test by just stealing or taking advantage a little bit, implying that the elf still has healthy elfly instincts, but doesn't want to ruin them, because they are developing some loyalty.

[Nyr]

Nyr, do you foresee ways for us to arrange family roles with a little more ease? Maybe without using the GDB at all, like, just submitting a special app for "the next elven PC family that forms in Allanak?" Then, when four people have submitted special apps like that, contact them all and say, "Okay, your family has been formed. The other players are a (age/sex age/sex age/sex,) we think the most sensical role for you is as (father/mother/son/daughter/brother/sister) based on the age makeup, do you agree to this and if so, go ahead and roll it up and we'll send more info in game?

More ease for players != more ease for staff.  Really, if you want to play in an elven PC family but don't have enough interest to actually start it yourself, put in an app for an elven tribe that is already supported.

So City Elves can create virtual background tribes but Desert Elves can not and must belong to one of the listed tribes?

Yes.  I think that this has been the case since about 2009 or so, maybe a little later than that.  You can't make a desert elf that isn't part of one of the desert elf tribes, and the only desert elf tribes allowed are the ones listed (per the page on that).

I did a quick search and it was posts like this that led me to believe that players creating virtual tribes was forbidden and that documented virtual tribes were to be created.

That's from 2009, so no, it is not accurate anymore.

If this is only for desert elves and city elves are allowed to create their own virtual tribes then some of the problems I've seen about city elves being broken is wrong.

Desert elves have to play in one of the two open desert elf tribes.  This has been the case for years.

Just make sure these tribes are quiet and will not, or can not, stand up for any of their members who get into trouble. Got it.

...what?

[Fujikoma]

It seems to me at times that for all practical purposes your vNPC Nakki city-elf tribe is useless, and little more than ornamentation for a race that is supposed to be city bound (yet somehow still "nomadic"), unable to use any form of transportation aside from pack beasts (which you cannot lead more than one of because, heh, ride skill), cannot play rangers (city bound, haha, even though theoretically with the correct background maybe your vNPC tribe does go out and hunt, just, they watch and laugh as their guide gets munched by scrab/carru/beetles/etc) or form any real bonds with anyone without continuous and increasingly difficult and dangerous tests of loyalty, and have a choice between two evils when it comes to employment. I suppose it is fun to play, and I suppose it is doable, but on the other hand, PC interaction wise, it's lonely and awful for something that's supposed to be not like playing a breed, so there's really very little incentive for many people to even experiment with the idea.

That said, I fully intend to try it again sometime in the future, just not anytime soon. Need to recharge my batteries for something that will likely be a taxing experience.

[HavokBlue]

Nah bro, people hire breeds!

They're less lonely to play than PC neckers are!

[Patuk]

Nah bro, people hire breeds!

They're less lonely to play than PC neckers are!

dat ride skill tho brah

[Bushranger]

So City Elves can create virtual background tribes but Desert Elves can not and must belong to one of the listed tribes?

Yes.  I think that this has been the case since about 2009 or so, maybe a little later than that.  You can't make a desert elf that isn't part of one of the desert elf tribes, and the only desert elf tribes allowed are the ones listed (per the page on that).

Just make sure these tribes are quiet and will not, or can not, stand up for any of their members who get into trouble. Got it.

...what?

2009 was the last time I played an elf and scraped the forums for information about them so yes the information I'd been working on is now outdated.

It is OK to send in a role application request for permission to play a family with other PCs, wherein that family has a virtual tribal background which will remain virtual and flavor-ific (as opposed to coded and/or with intent to use the tribal background as a base of power in the gameworld). It is not OK to recruit other PCs post-creation into a "tribe" in game, because it makes no sense; tribes in Zalanthas are groups of humanoids which are of the same race, all directly related by blood, and have a common survival purpose and inherited culture.

Talia wrote that in a Ask the Staff reply and it seems to make the most sense given that virtual tribes can be created by players of city elves. The Tribe is for flavouring the background of a PC (or family of PCs) but not for bailing out a PC if they get into trouble. This is opposed to Jaxa Pah or Akai Sjir who have more of a presence (and staff backing) to support a member in trouble.