On Tribes

[Nyr]

Yep. Your virtual tribe is not to be used to bail your ass out...just like virtual sid won't bribe PC templars, virtual and relatively weak background vNPC power has no real influence on the gameworld.

[BadSkeelz]

Yep. Your virtual tribe is not to be used to bail your ass out...just like virtual sid won't bribe PC templars, virtual and relatively weak background vNPC power has no real influence on the gameworld.

But there are ways to actually obtain sid, and then use it to bail yourself out. A virtual elven tribe is for all practical intents and purposes useless. It doesn't provide you protection, it doesn't provide you a (however meager) support network, and it doesn't provide you with any inner-tribe roleplay.

[Nyr]

Right. Like many areas of the game, virtual resources exist that may be attainable in solid and influential ways by PC action. One example I used was obsidian. You can have that. However, you can't bribe someone with virtual obsidian. You have to have the real stuff.

The same goes for virtual tribes. Your virtual tribe is fairly inconsequential. If you want your character's tribal background to be one of significance, it will need to be as part of a tribe that is coded that has both virtual and actual PC-tangible and PC-affecting resources. There are limits to what you can virtually assume.

Not being able to use your "background tribe" to declare war on someone is not discriminatory against RP opportunities. For starters, you have options (limited though they may be at times) to play as part of an established tribe that has that kind of influence and power, such that if may be. However, you can't just arbitrarily decide that you have some kind of virtual power with any PC that otherwise doesn't have it. It falls in line with our approach to power-emoting vNPCs--you can't decide you have some awesome support without that actual support being there.

[Jingo]

The problem is that people still just pretend that these resources don't exist. Much like they pretend there aren't any human tribes in the tablelands or that they pretend your virtual family isn't going to come looking when you get pk'd.

When you pick a fight with elf x, you're still picking a fight with tribe x. Just nobody cares because everyone knows that tribe is virtual.

[RogueGunslinger]

I don't think that's a problem. OR at least no different from any other "virtual" problem that arises.

[Jingo]

It's not a problem that is easily or is even able to be fixed. Doesn't mean it isn't a problem and isn't frustrating.

For perspective, elves are the shitkicked dogs. But half-elves aren't for some reason.

[spicemustflow]

This may be a dumb question now, but I still don't understand this: Why can't a player put out a role call for a four-member family of a virtual Fuckwood tribe (with the understanding between players and staff that said family won't bring in new members to the tribe)?

Playing broken, tribeless elves gets old after a while. This way us pathetic elf fetishists will have something interesting to do.

[bcw81]

This may be a dumb question now, but I still don't understand this: Why can't a player put out a role call for a four-member family of a virtual Fuckwood tribe (with the understanding between players and staff that said family won't bring in new members to the tribe)?

Playing broken, tribeless elves gets old after a while. This way us pathetic elf fetishists will have something interesting to do.

They can, it's just every member of the family needs to be blood related.

[SmashedTregil]

So your tribe cannot protect you from harm. So what? Modify your character's reasoning then. Instead of, "My tribe is virtual, so I cant act like an ass and expect people not to rip me a new one, since they dont fear my tribe and all."   Think, "I cant act like an ass. This will provoke them. If they're stronger then me, it might provoke my kin to respond and in the end endanger my entire tribe. If they are weaker then me, it will make them try to hurt me, by hurting one of my kin instead." Not only is your virtual tribe not an asset for you, it is actually a burden. You made a big score? Harh, actually, you're probably oughta junk two thirds of it and spread it amidst your kin. Lots of food in your bags? Sorry, you've got your kin to feed.   Personally? I love the crap out of that.



It's a good question though. What if someone runs a role call for a 4 member family of celves and as a biography, make them all part of one singular tribe. By all logic, if they are family, they 'are' of the same tribe if they're celf.


PS: Tribes are for the most part consists of large families. So in a way, they 'are' all blood related, or close to it.

[HavokBlue]

Well no, they can't. You can app an elven family, and your elven family can join or even create the Fuckwood Hunting Crew, but you can't call yourselves or create the Fuckwood Tribe, because of entirely OOC reasons, if I'm understanding correctly.

[SmashedTregil]

Interesting. I would truly appreciate Staff confirmation on that. Unless it's been already given somewhere? It is perfectly possible for a 'singular' celf to create a virtual tribe. He can give them a name, backstory, the works. I know, I've done it myself and seen it done many a time. Granted, that tribe will 'never' adopt any other member, but that's hardly relevant.

Now, would it be possible to create a family of four celves, who by definition (if they're family and all), are part of the 'same' virtual tribe. They should be able to give it a name, a backstory, the works. Just never be able to adopt any new members into it and it will 'never' increase in size, except virtually. Only decrease, when one of these family member PC kicks the bucket.

Would a staffer be able to confirm that this will not be allowed?

[spicemustflow]

This may be a dumb question now, but I still don't understand this: Why can't a player put out a role call for a four-member family of a virtual Fuckwood tribe (with the understanding between players and staff that said family won't bring in new members to the tribe)?

Playing broken, tribeless elves gets old after a while. This way us pathetic elf fetishists will have something interesting to do.

They can, it's just every member of the family needs to be blood related.

But you can't say "we're Fuckwoods" and tattoo ancient Fuckwood marks on your face. In other words, you have to present yourself as a member of a small family, not a part of something larger. Even though that something may be codedly irrelevant.

edit: sorry for the noise, I should have checked if someone posted the same shit before I did

[Fujikoma]

How about let all those poor, tribeless nakki city elves join the militia?

[spicemustflow]

That would be the worst possible solution for everyone

[Harmless]

So your tribe cannot protect you from harm. So what? Modify your character's reasoning then. Instead of, "My tribe is virtual, so I cant act like an ass and expect people not to rip me a new one, since they dont fear my tribe and all."   Think, "I cant act like an ass. This will provoke them. If they're stronger then me, it might provoke my kin to respond and in the end endanger my entire tribe. If they are weaker then me, it will make them try to hurt me, by hurting one of my kin instead." Not only is your virtual tribe not an asset for you, it is actually a burden. You made a big score? Harh, actually, you're probably oughta junk two thirds of it and spread it amidst your kin. Lots of food in your bags? Sorry, you've got your kin to feed.   Personally? I love the crap out of that.

This is very true! If anything, your small virtual tribes are less likely to help "bail you out" than anybody. They are small and just want to live, like most people on Earth do. They have no interest in your plots. If you had stayed a vNPC like them, none of this kankshit would ever have happened!

I guess the two archetypes for vNPC tribe are "estranged" or "died off." In the estranged case, the PC elf is playing the "black sheep" of that vNPC tribe, off to do something that they didn't agree with and so will have nothing to do with.

I think next time I roll a celf PC it'll be more along the lines of above, if I decide to have a virtual tribe. Estranged, parted ways.

Edited to add: Nyr, I totally se your point about that causing more work for staff. Thanks for answering!

[Rathustra]

Also, if it helps anyone deal with the oddity of not being able to refer to your c-elf family role group as a 'tribe' - consider that when adapting to a city environment, elves, like humans (but perhaps to a lesser extent) will likely reject the trappings of the 'wastes' - as tribals, desert-dwellers, barbarians and savages are the lesser compared to the civilised city dweller.

In that respect it's not hard to imagine many of the fractured, tiny tribes that exist in cities to use the more socially acceptable term 'family' when referring to the cluster of individuals that their elven mindset identifies as 'tribe'.

SmashedTregil's comment about the pressures and RP hooks that come with a virtual tribe is dead on - a virtual tribe is a great opportunity to drive your RP and give your PC motivation. Guess who feeds you during the time your offline? Guess who houses you and takes care of you when offline? Obviously this isn't the same as having PC tribemates, a cool tribe quit room and NPCs, but a virtual tribe can be as big a part of your character's background as a coded one - it's just unlikely that your virtual tribe will ever come to the fore of your PC's story.

Also, regarding elven tests of trust - these aren't a concious thing. Elves aren't consciously aware of the process beyond how we, as humans (most of us), are aware of the process of learning to trust someone. Interpret that statement as you wish. The process outlined in the elven RP docs is an outline that you can have your elf PC follow as unconsciously (I've just grown to trust this guy!) or as consciously (Can I trust this guy?) as you want - with as much paranoia and consideration as befits your elf as an individual.

[BadSkeelz]

Also, if it helps anyone deal with the oddity of not being able to refer to your c-elf family role group as a 'tribe' - consider that when adapting to a city environment, elves, like humans (but perhaps to a lesser extent) will likely reject the trappings of the 'wastes' - as tribals, desert-dwellers, barbarians and savages are the lesser compared to the civilised city dweller.

This seems to collide head-on with the City Elf Docs where "tribe is key. It doesn't sound like something Elves, who are said to be inordinately proud of their heritage, are going to toss aside. Especially if it's humans who're saying tribals, desert-dwellers, barbarians and savages are lesser.

In that respect it's not hard to imagine many of the fractured, tiny tribes that exist in cities to use the more socially acceptable term 'family' when referring to the cluster of individuals that their elven mindset identifies as 'tribe'.

I don't have any objections to city elf tribes being small. I do object to how all PC celf tribes are doomed to extinction because all PCs are mortal, and IC growth is forbidden by OOC fiat. It's especially galling when the City Elves have seriously limited support for their tribal roleplay, at least in one City State. There's a vacuum in City Elf roleplay, and I think players should be allowed to take a stab at filling it.

SmashedTregil's comment about the pressures and RP hooks that come with a virtual tribe is dead on - a virtual tribe is a great opportunity to drive your RP and give your PC motivation. Guess who feeds you during the time your offline? Guess who houses you and takes care of you when offline?

Good to know that the tribal aspect of City Elf roleplay, arguably the most important aspect of their character, is on the same level as "you don't need to emote defecating, your PC does that while he's offline." It's tantamount to excusing a dwarf PC not following his focus as "well, he's doing that virtually." To an elf, tribe is key, and yet most PC city elves are locked out of actually roleplaying that with other PCs.

Obviously this isn't the same as having PC tribemates, a cool tribe quit room and NPCs, but a virtual tribe can be as big a part of your character's background as a coded one -

Anyone who makes demands on the staff for a clan quit room or NPCs should get the same response as those people who ask for wagons for their indie crews: to be told no, and ignored. I would much rather see city elf clans shrink and grow based on the actions of their PCs, scratching out livings with the multitude of resources we players already have. Want a clan room? Rent an apartment. You all likely have lockpick anyway, so no complaining about lack of rent keys.

it's just unlikely that your virtual tribe will ever come to the fore of your PC's story.

But why not? Tribe's supposed to be key to City Elves and their character. You wouldn't allow a dwarf player to "follow their focus" virtually, and then forbid them from taking actions to further their focus in game.

The assumed reason for why the humans haven't wiped out the City Elf population (who all seem to be thieves, hucksters, and don't even make very good slaves) is because their tribal structures temper race hatred with fear of retaliation. City Elf PCs, whether they have a virtual tribe or are just a tribeless wanderer, rarely get any benefit of this. City Elf PCs have limited opportunity to build an in-game support network, get virtually no credit for their virtual ones from other PCs, and are consequentially being shoe-horned into the role of worthless tribeless jackoff.

[Rathustra]

There's no conflict there - tribe is key. But tribe is also just a word. Don't confuse a mindset with the way that the mindset is expressed - just because an elf calls his 'tribe' family or gang, or clutch or whatever else - it doesn't mean that his attitudes to those he identifies as members of that group aren't the same.

Also, people are really, really good at finding ways to distinguish themselves from others. Please also don't take my suggestion of a way to rationalise an ooc limitation (not being able to call a family a tribe) in an IC situation at a blanket statement for c-elves. Not all c-elves are carbon copies, nor do they all think the same way - a tribe isn't just some arbitrary distinction, it's also a culture which is shaped by its environment. But that's enough on that - we could fill an entire thread about the different ways in which elven mentality could be bent!

A lot of human families are doomed to extinction when a human PC dies. Many of these families can easily be as large as a c-elf 'tribe' - heck, virtual human and dwarven desert tribes are wiped out every time someone with subguild nomad gets eaten by a baltha. I don't see why elven tribes are exceptions to this rule - a rule that exists for another reason not related to c-elves in particular.

I'm not sure there is a vacuum - when I started playing Armageddon there were no active, coded c-elf tribes. People still played/play c-elves. A lot of the problems that keep cropping up in these threads stem from people using their OOC knowledge (no reprisals, c-elves have no backup, a crime involving a c-elf is going to be pinned on the only active c-elf pc in a given city) for IC leverage. That sucks. Please don't do that. I like city elves though - the only reason I am on staff today is because of my play as a c-elf, so I'm pretty indebted to them. I'd like to do more with them, but I'm busy at the moment.

I don't think a c-elf's tribe (family?) is quite the crux of them as characters as you make out with your defecation comment - saying that the tribal inter-action itself is them most important part of playing a c-elf. That's like saying that having a focus is the most important part of playing a dwarf. It isn't - it's pursuing that focus and having that mental slant towards pursuing it without compromise. With an elf tribal roleplay is important because of the way it makes your elf behave IC - not trusting outsiders, considering your family's well being, anxiety over being apart from them, etc. It's like an iceberg (if you'll forgive the shitty analogy) - the virtual element is huge and that produces the stuff you see above the water - IC behaviour, which in turn directs your play. As a c-elf with a virtual tribe this means your play is sort of limited with how you give back to your tribe. Yes that sucks. No it is not as big of a deal as it is sometimes made out. Also your comparison to defecation doesn't make much sense - every PC, elf or otherwise, does stuff in their vNPC downtime. You as a player give those actions significance when you step back into PC land. Did your PC take a massive shit while he was an NPC that ruptured one of his piles and means he's limping for the rest of the IG week? Ok that's a big deal. Suddenly taking a shit is a big deal.

That whole last paragraph is entirely my own opinion. I can't talk with authority on this matter because everything to do with c-elves that is officially sanctioned by staff is on the website.

I'm not sure what you're getting at with regards to clan quit rooms. But I'm pretty sure we agree. Along with c-elves I loved the Benjari - my favourite human PC besides my AoD private was a Benjari. I think this is the right thing to say here.

Why not?

Because of reasons not directly related to c-elves at all. Even without the limitations that family applications impose I don't think I'd want players growing their virtual tribes IG though. This is entirely personal and due to personal experiences while acting as an imm for indies. I would certainly have no problems in letting people do so if the rules were different, however.

I don't disagree that c-elves are under-represented and get a poor rep. Personally though - I've always quite liked being the tribal jerkoff.

[SmashedTregil]

Amusingly, I have personally used a simple trick when I had to speak about my virtual tribe.  Fact of the matter, is that it may very easily be "NOT" in tribe's best interests for you to yap about it. The moment you say you to belong to such and such tribe, suddenly every single one of your deeds and words affects your tribe. You may do your thing and move on, and the consequences will catch up to someone 'else' of your tribe.

In other words. If you're going to start talking about your tribe to someone. Better be sure that you trust them enough to confide something so serious, as the name, origin, location, and traditions of your tribe. Because all of that information, can be used against them.

Dont be in a hurry to spill out all that backstory you've come up with that fleshes out your virtual tribe. Share it sparingly, to make it a real sign of trust and preference.

[Fujikoma]

Then there is no advantage to playing a city elf, besides a few minor stat bonuses, the best of which mundanes without an extended subguild can't even make use of because crippled archery (no ranger, though you can special app a time-sensitive outdoorsman), crippled strength, no riding, no hopping on a wagon, skimmer, or airship, crippled social skills because even the lowliest breed is better off, and crippled roleplay because it takes so long to make friends and people die in waves. Great. Can't wait to try another one.

Oh, master pickpocket or burglar, but think something less thiefy.

Ok, I'm going to be the change next time around, and no one is going to stop me, and I'm going to involve my vNPCs in odd and funny ways, and I'm going to have fun doing it. There are ways to do this. I encourage all to join the city elf movement.

All without a family app. This is my new challenge to myself. Let all us single elf tribes have fun trying to kill eachother, amidst thoroughly confused roundears.

Thanks for providing direction when I'd suddenly thought I'd lost all of it.

I'm not spec apping a family that could be done in in seconds, when I could get myself done in in half the time (my one elf lived a bit).

(I'm serious, this sounds fun )

[HavokBlue]

Honestly unless you plan on joining the Byn, there's no reason to play a southern city elf unless you like suffering.

This could change in the future with a revamp of the Jaxa, but I think you can get a similar but more enjoyable experience with a breed in the meantime, AND you will have clan options.

[Fujikoma]

Honestly unless you plan on joining the Byn, there's no reason to play a southern city elf unless you like suffering.

This could change in the future with a revamp of the Jaxa, but I think you can get a similar but more enjoyable experience with a breed in the meantime, AND you will have clan options.

Stop playing this... WE WILL RULE YOU! YEAH!

No seriously, elves unite! Fight back! But do it smart...

[MeTekillot]

sorry, can't unite, no tribes