Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines

[ShaLeah]

Pfftt, not really in line with the topic. But if I so choose to do naughty scenes with another char, I will ask for consent and if it becomes a repetitive thing
I ask for a blanket consent, noting that ftb is always wonderful. If accepted no more consent ooc's. If you follow my char without my knowledge, to my apartment with another char, I couldn't care less whether you consent or not, you knew what was happening, its your own damn fault.
Besides if you don't consent you can always OOC I don't wish to watch your fabulous nekkid times, would you open the door so I can leave.

I laughed so hard. My consent messages (especially if I'm playing a whore) are legendary and I always add watchers auto consent. It's already been established that watchers auto consent but I do it anyway. I also establish that between the two or more characters involved in that scene there doesn't need to be consent asked every time.


On topic?

This one's tough. One of my characters got "date raped". I was going to kudos the player but my real world sensitivities stopped me.

The biggest problem is that it's NOT a black and white issue. It's an entirely personal issue. For X # of my characters anal isn't shit (no pun intended) but for that ONE character who was raped, it was NOT okay.


Maybe the problem lies in the illusion that "playing a rape out in text format" isn't going to affect YOU the person in the same way a real rape would, but sometimes detachment from Armageddon situations is impossible. If there are staff having to deal with aftermath of rape scenarios you can bet your ass it's a result of OOC issues, not in world issues and that HAS to be difficult.

I would hope, because it IS a character changing life event, you wouldn't ban the use of the concept, however, between forcing someone to play it out and banning it, I'd choose banning it.

Personally, I'd choose banning playing it out, not happening.

[HavokBlue]

I think every time someone has a new question about this topic they should post it in a new thread instead of the thread already devoted to this topic

Yeah

That's a good idea

[Delirium]

I think every time someone has a new question about this topic they should post it in a new thread instead of the thread already devoted to this topic

Yeah

That's a good idea

[Eyeball]

An alternative approach would be for new players to have to click a button explicitly accepting that rape of all degrees, including false accusations, might happen in game, since Zalanthas is a violent and dark place. The same way you have to "accept" terms and conditions before downloading software.

[Yummri]

An alternative approach would be for new players to have to click a button explicitly accepting that rape of all degrees, including false accusations, might happen in game, since Zalanthas is a violent and dark place. The same way you have to "accept" terms and conditions before downloading software.

Wait...you read those before you just click accept blindly?

Who knew.
In all seriousness, I don't see that working, in the same way as it doesn't really work now.

[FreeRangeVestric]

EDIT: Nevermind...

[Shik]

I haven't read through all the posts yet, but I wanted to throw in my two sids.

During my time, I have personally experienced two scenerios of rape. It didn't traumatize me as much as the harrowing time on another mud. I was tormented everytime I logged in for two days. I had it in my mind that one day I would be free again since other characters had access to my cell, but then I was strangled by the one character I trusted after revealing my plan to try to bring my assailant to justice after feigning submission. Never-ever saw that one coming.

Jeez.. It is hard, and I have this vague miserable sensation just while typing this up. Rape is horrible. Betrayal is terrible. Both were too much, and I wept. You know that aching feeling, the writhing in your gut, after brutally losing your favorite character? You may have felt sick. Well, this made me feel very sick.

I believe that staff having to get involved in any sort of sexual situation would be loathsome. I understand why the new rule is in place, and the pain these situations can cause. Better yet, this may also save drama by preventing innocent characters being accused of rape and being swiftly slaughtered.

I agree with ShaLeah in that this could go into fade territory. Even still, I prefer the old consent rule to "You shall not pass!" rule where the smoky rape demon falls into deep pit to be forgotten as a plot device and game element. Maybe I am weird. But people can just murder your ass if feelings are unrequited or they need a sense of dominance and power.

Despite having a mature community and benevolent staff, there will always some grief and pain. I am not certain how I feel about it the new rule, for Zalanthas is a harsh world full of pitfalls and pain. Maybe this wil be better for the game as a whole, but it will certainly change things.

If you are a new player to Armageddon, you should be aware that half
elves are often a product of rape sexy elves stealing human sperm through clever and consentual seduction

[ShaLeah]

I agree with ShaLeah

You are not alone. Welcome.

* ShaLeah opens ^me arms wide, invitingly.

If you are a new player to Armageddon, you should be aware that half
elves are often a product of rapesexy elves stealing human sperm through clever and consentual seduction

I never even thought about that! Whoa... BUT!

If you are a new player to Armageddon, you should be aware that half
elves are hypothetically a product of rapesexy filthy, disgusting elves stealing the supreme goodliness that is human sperm through clever abominable and consentual seduction magicks. Open speculation about these happenings will be cause for immediate storage.

FTFY YW

[slvrmoontiger]

staff will define two things that I have been asking for over and over again and am waiting responses.

December 25th was Christmas.

In the US, which is the country most of our staff members are currently citizens of, this is a holiday.

To further expand on that concept. This means they aren't replying to you, or really much of anyone/anything right now because they are taking a holiday break.

If I need to expand that further, it is a lost cause and I decline the acceptance of that responsibility.

Sorry D-Man and to any staff that took my post as something that they were ignoring me or simply not responding. I'm just sick of the same thing going over and over again and people adding their comments to things that I asked from staff. As far as I care people commenting on my posts that are no staff means very little to me as those people don't decide punishments for others. So I am just waiting for staff to have time to review and respond and create official help documentation. If other's would like to comment on what I have requested that's fine and up to them, for me it is just a waste of time to read what they think as in the long run it doesn't answer my question.

Once again I do appreciate the time and energy staff does put into reading things and working on things to make Armageddon the best MUD there is. I hope everyone had and has a happy holiday season and has time to spend with their family, friends, and loved ones.

[Heade]

I remember a time when armageddon wasn't a place for over-sensitive, politically correct do-gooders.

I recall a general policy that pretty much stated: We have permadeath. You may be robbed, tortured, raped, enslaved, teleported into a wilderness you can't get out of, eaten(by creatures OR people), or killed in any number of ways. You will die, a lot. It won't be "fair". If all of this doesn't sound like a good time to you, perhaps armageddon isn't the place for you.

I feel like armageddon was the last bastion of true roleplaying to be had in MUDs. I believe that limiting RP topics between consenting players damages that roleplaying dynamic.

I don't agree with this change, and would like to see a shift back towards the roots of arm, when admins told people to stop being a crybaby.




Possible Solution to staff being overworked by this topic:
Why not just take a hard line stance on the consent rule, and ban people who break it? Consent is only needed if engaging in the act yourself. Simple rule. No consent, it doesn't happen. That, IMO, is already overly catering. Consent for scene or FTB is fine imo, but I understand that I'm old school. So, what's wrong with two consenting players playing a scene they both want to partake in?

If people are sending in requests and creating staff workload over hearing someone tell a story in the bar about a character being raped, and the story bothers them, they can be told by staff to ICly excuse themselves, or OOCly get over it. If they continue to whine about it, take disciplinary action against the whiner for creating unnecessary workload.

If arm staff has arrived at the point where they're bending over backwards to ensure they OOCly don't hurt any feelings, I'd say that's the beginning of the end.

Armageddon
Feelings Will Be Hurt
Lines Will Be Crossed
You may love it.
You may hate it.
But you WILL get over it.

[ShaLeah]

[Lizzie]

Why not just take a hard line stance on the consent rule, and ban people who break it? Consent is only needed if engaging in the act yourself. Simple rule. No consent, it doesn't happen. That, IMO, is already overly catering. Consent for scene or FTB is fine imo, but I understand that I'm old school. So, what's wrong with two consenting players playing a scene they both want to partake in?

Because according to the staff's posts about the issue, it stems not from unconsented RP of rape. It stems from a combination of the staff having to deal with consent vs. non-consent, complaints on a more regular basis than the staff has energy to expend on this one specific subject, plus someone *accusing* someone else ICly of a rape that never happened and then subsequent complaints to staff about it, and the staff having to get in the middle of it.

Just way too much shit about too little of a subject.

My issue with it is only with regards to the whole VNPC thing, that characters aren't allowed to reference rape in their roleplay, like "The reason my character genned in the Firestorm this particular day is - she was left for dead outside the city after being raped by elves, has nothing to her name except the few hundred sids she saved up over the last four years, which she just took out of the bank, and the clothes on her back. Those nasty elves would've made off with her clothes too but they ran off when a non-descript hunter rode by. This explains her absolute loathing of elves, an odd fear of half-elves, and a particular attraction to hunters."

That scenario - is no longer allowed to exist. It is not allowed to have happened. Sure it's far fetched, and it's not the best creative construct I could have come up with, but I made it up just this moment without giving it much thought. No one is allowed to give it any thought at all. And that is the issue I have with it.

[Malken]

* rape and batteries not included.

[Heade]

As an addendum to my previous post, if staff's entire reason for doing this is because the staff workload is out of hand due to requests related to this, I'd be willing to volunteer my services as insensitive administrator of OOC rape requests. My admin name will be IAORR. I will ban those who break the consent rule, and send everyone else an identical form letter:

"Dear Arm Player,

Grow a thicker skin, and welcome to armageddon. If you need further assistance from a certified professional, you may contact the free rape hotline at: 1-800-656-HOPE

Sincerely,

IAORR"

Staff isn't here to be rape counselors. They're not here to stroke egos, or babysit feelings. They're here to facilitate a coded roleplaying environment that boasts an unprecedented amount of roleplaying freedom. One man's freedom hurts another man's feelings. Deal with it.

[Malken]

As an addendum to my previous post, if staff's entire reason for doing this is because the staff workload is out of hand due to requests related to this, I'd be willing to volunteer my services as insensitive administrator of OOC rape requests. My admin name will be IAORR. I will ban those who break the consent rule, and send everyone else an identical form letter:

Staff, you need to change Heade's title to "Senior Armageddon Raping Expert"

[FreeRangeVestric]

hi i am an evil cabbage and this is what rape is:

not consenting to sexual conduct.

solved.

"I want sexy times with you." "I do not consent."

Pursuit: Rape. End of discussion.

I expanded further on the examples I brought up to try to show you that what you're saying is a vast oversimplification, but I fear they had too many inferable IC details included, so I decided against posting it. I really don't believe it is always, or even usually, as simple as you're putting it however.

[BadSkeelz]

RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RAPE RAPE RAEP

Of your "good ol' days" list, the only thing that can't still happen is being raped. Everything else still happens on a daily basis. You can even still be enslaved, it just amounts to storage/unorthodox PK because you can no longer play that character. Sure, this rule change was a shock, but it's not like the list of horrible things that can happen to our PCs has been gutted.

I thought it'd be interesting to go look at the old consent rules. As I suspected, accusation plotlines (which seemed to require far more staff resources to investigate and monitor) weren't very well accounted for; certainly it was never clearly spelled out that if you even tell Malik that Talia raped Amos, you have to get consent from Talia's PC first.

Apart from the requirement that people roleplay realistically here, there are few restrictions on roleplay in Armageddon. If you choose to roleplay adult situations, that is fine. However, before instigating such an act with another player, please OOC to make sure that the roleplay is consented to. If someone is instigating roleplay that makes you (the player) uncomfortable, please OOC that they should stop. If they continue despite being told to stop, please wish up. This rule is not meant to be abused in order to allow characters to escape death/torture/etc., but is intended for adult situations, such as torture or rape, which some players and staff may not wish to witness. If you act out a graphic sequence without first obtaining the other player's consent, and the player then complains within a reasonable amount of time (so that the runlogs can be checked and the complaint verified), you will be permanently banned.

Specifically in the case of roleplaying through a rape, the instigator takes on added responsibility. In this case, the instigator absolutely must OOCly ask for and must obtain explicit consent from the victim's player prior to involving their character in any emote specifically indicative of the act of rape, no matter how non-graphical you believe it to be.

I feel like those rules could have and should have been clarified. However, I also feel that if Staff thought that would solve all their problems stemming from Rape plotlines, they would have done that instead. Lizzie's probably right, it was a combination of problems that led to this change.  For all I know, for every accusation plotline gone awry that I'm aware of, there were a thousand idiots not adhering to consent. It's still important to remember that the solution wasn't as easy as banning peeps.

[Heade]

Of your "good ol' days" list, the only thing that can't still happen is being raped. Everything else still happens on a daily basis. You can even still be enslaved, it just amounts to storage/unorthodox PK because you can no longer play that character.

Being forced to store if you're enslaved, and being banned from playing a slave does not = being able to be enslaved. You get absolutely zero RP out of storing or being banned from playing something.

I thought it'd be interesting to go look at the old consent rules. As I suspected, accusation plotlines (which seemed to require far more staff resources to investigate and monitor) weren't very well accounted for; certainly it was never clearly spelled out that if you even tell Malik that Talia raped Amos, you have to get consent from Talia's PC first.

I don't think you should have to get consent to accuse someone of rape. It's no different than accusing someone of murder, or theft, or whatever. If it's true, you're doing nothing at all wrong IC, and if it's not, then you're trying to get them in trouble, and no distinction need be made between accusing someone of murder, or the lesser crime of rape.

It's still important to remember that the solution wasn't as easy as banning peeps.

It absolutely is. Years ago, when Halaster was around, staff gave one-word responses to page-long requests. If you make your playerbase aware of the fact that personal, OOC boo-hoo requests are going to be largely ignored, your email box won't be full of them. It all starts with a "No. Deal with it."


It all boils down to the world thinking everyone needs to be sensitive and understanding. We don't. The world doesn't need more whiners. When everyone is sensitive and understanding, it creates more whiners. Whiners always mess up a good thing. So, to get whiners to stop messing up good stuff, stop being sensitive and understanding. This politically correct cesspool of a planet where no one speaks their mind already has enough of "sensitive and understanding".


EDIT: I'm all for the consent rule. But the consent rule should only protect someone from having to RP through rape, or have to play a victim. It should not be blanket protection from ever having to hear the word. If the word alone is that destructive, that simply hearing it causes someone problems, then they really should be seeking professional help, and not roleplaying in a harsh landscape like armageddon.

Seeing people get murdered is traumatic too. But you don't see people joining a game like arm, then lobbying to have all killing removed from the game, or have a "consent" rule for murder because they had a traumatic past. People who that topic is too sensitive for simply avoid games with that topic included, or they accept the reality that it is a part of a game they otherwise love. It really irritates me that something like rape is singled out as being abhorrent when there is so much worse that can be done to people.

I also find it hilarious that many people who have spoken out against the blanket rule change have felt the need to add qualifiers like "I've never played through a rape scene, and don't pursue those storylines, but....".

As if by not adding these disclaimers they're going to be labelled rapists and deviants. It's a game. It takes place in a rough world. In similar times, on earth, rape was considered part of the spoils of war. It was part of a soldier's prize for victory. I understand that some people have had horrible experiences with rape. Just like others have had horrible experiences with witnessing murder. If being reminded of such situations is too traumatic for either of them, they probably should not RP in a world like arm.

[flurry]

Armageddon
Feelings Will Be Hurt
Lines Will Be Crossed
You may love it.
You may hate it.
But you WILL get over it.

Probably a good thing to remember, even for policy changes.

[Delusion]

Haven't ever encountered an incidence of rape in-game, myself. It's a little startling to hear that it was common enough to create a substantial workload for staff.

Personally, I'm quite happy to see it gone. Not that I realised it was there to begin with. I've never met anyone in real life who has been murdered or tortured, nor even heard of an attempt at such. I've met a few who have been raped or sexually assaulted. Thankfully, it's never happened to me, but it's still a distressingly common occurrence worldwide, especially relative to various other heinous acts, and one where overt references to it, even fictional, may hit uncomfortably close to home for some.

Anyway, I'll go on doing what I've always done, and can't imagine I'll break any rules in the process. Common sense prevails.

[FantasyWriter]

Armageddon
Feelings Will Be Hurt
Lines Will Be Crossed
You may love it.
You may hate it.
But you WILL get over it.

Probably a good thing to remember, even for policy changes.

I laughed.... very nice.

[MeTekillot]

If you guys want to play a game where you can wantonly cross the moral boundries of other players without their consent, I suggest going to play HellMOO.

Armageddon
Feelings Will Be Hurt
Lines Will Be Crossed
You may love it.
You may hate it.
But you WILL get over it.

Probably a good thing to remember, even for policy changes.

[FreeRangeVestric]

If you guys want to play a game where you can wantonly cross the moral boundries of other players without their consent, I suggest going to play HellMOO.

No one said anything about doing away with the already in place consent rule, so please stop trying to frame our arguments against this rule as such.

[26 dollars]

I'm all for the consent rule. But the consent rule should only protect someone from having to RP through rape, or have to play a victim. It should not be blanket protection from ever having to hear the word. If the word alone is that destructive, that simply hearing it causes someone problems, then they really should be seeking professional help, and not roleplaying in a harsh landscape like armageddon.

If you read the as-of-yet undefined ruling, it doesn't say you can never use the word "rape".  It does say that we can no longer roleplay out rape or accuse someone of rape.  From what I can tell, you can't threaten rape, such as:  "Ooh, I'm a scary bad guy, I'ma rape you with this here stuffed gith penis *fearsome gaze*".  There will be clarification, obviously.

For my own part, I'd rather not be the one who causes someone psychological pain, and I don't think that's a sensitivity issue, it's a human decency issue.  Just because we play murderous, vile assholes on a game, it definitely doesn't mean you have to be one in the real world.  There is no parallel, sorry.

The crux of the matter here is that rape is too mature for a troublesome portion of this playerbase.  Sorry for the rest of us who simply don't care, never had a problem, or were handling that RP responsibly.  Some minority group has made it too much a pain in the ass, and now it's gone.

So far, I've only seen a few people say "omg, all my rapez" over this being gone.  The main concern is a question of either a slippery slope of censorship (contradicted plainly by staff) or worries about limiting character development (hopefully amended in the near future).

This game still has murder, corruption and betrayal.  Those are truly the best parts of it.

[Heade]

Armageddon
Feelings Will Be Hurt
Lines Will Be Crossed
You may love it.
You may hate it.
But you WILL get over it.

Probably a good thing to remember, even for policy changes.

No doubt. I will get over it either way. But this situation brings to mind:

   First they came for the Communists,
   and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Communist.

   Then they came for the Socialists,
   and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Socialist.

   Then they came for the trade unionists,
   and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

   Then they came for me,
   and there was no one left to speak for me.


There will always be someone to complain about something. If you continuously remove elements of the game when over-sensitive people complain that it hurts their feelings, eventually nothing will be left of the game. And when it comes time for them to remove the elements of the game that you like, others who might have argued in defense of that may no longer be there, having lost interest in the game several issues before that. You remember, back when you didn't speak up, because it wasn't an issue you cared about.

The solution isn't to remove the ability for consenting players to play scenes they both want to. The solution is to remove complainers who generate too large a workload over an issue that they have the option to ignore, and not RP.