Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines

[Zoan]

99% of the Arm playerbase never wanted to engage in a rape plotline before this announcement, now they all want to.

[slvrmoontiger]

I'm still having trouble figuring out exactly what the staff terms as rape. *shrugs*

Here in the United States - Rape and Sexual Assault are used as like terms.

Sexual Assault could be something such as groping a woman that doesn't want to be groped. Or groping a man that doesn't want to be groped.
Rape is a crime of control. Rapist seek to control their victims so in those terms anything that takes control away from a victim could be considered rape. This could be as simple as getting someone drunk so they can do things to them while they aren't in their proper mind.

I think to have rules on Rape would need a clear cut definition of what is considered Rape on Zalanthas. That is why I suggested a help file and put some information in it a while back in this forum. However, it received no mention and no one really commented on it either way. I believe such a help file would save a lot of work for players as well as staff.

Furthermore, while we are on this topic. What is the rule of consent? Does consenting once just give someone open rein to you time and time again until you specifically OOC them saying I don't consent anymore? How I've always played this is that I will ask consent EVERY time I am to do anything sexual. Unless I have asked in the past for consent until it is specifically taken away. It would appear, based on past events, that staff believes once consent is given it is valid no matter when you come back to the same person again. This I don't agree with. I will continue to treat consent as I have always done in the past until something clear and concise is brought forth in the form of help file documentation.

[SmashedTregil]

99% of the Arm playerbase never wanted to engage in a rape plotline before this announcement, now they all want to.

While I'm guessing this is more of a joke. Personally, I would caution against thinking like that. Making it look like anyone who finds this new ruling troublesome are just upset they dont get to rape people anymore. Lots of people said that that's not what worries them. It's the inability to deal with the concept in any way.

Not being able to rape anyone = either people support that, or dont care.
Not being able to externalize rape as a concept to rp about and base their character motivations on = some people are against that.

[bcw81]

Absolute, forced penile or vaginal infiltration into another person - I'm fine with that being banned.

But saying "Rape" is banned is just... Well... A -lot- of things. In the broadest terms I'm going to talk about an example that happened to me earlier this year. My character was a working man, and he was content working, drinking, smoking, and fucking. Now, another character that he'd been hitting on came to him one day after work, stuck sex spice in his mouth, and told him to smoke. He did. Things got sexual. She then decided to tell him this was never happening again. Cool. There's some story behind that - Plotline created!

I later find out that she was doing it only to try and get a baby out of it. That made my character feel used and abused. He didn't like talking about the thing that happened to him afterwards. -I- wouldn't coin that as rape, but I could definitely see people saying it was. In the future with this new rule - Things like that either wouldn't happen, or couldn't happen. Maybe staff say a situation like that is okay, but because of the wording now (and thank you Adhira for saying you're going to reword it) no one is going to want to chance their character getting stored for doing things even close to this.

If I were to word a rule like this in one sentence, it would be as follows: "Rape (direct genital contact of an unwanted nature [not through clothing]) is hereby banned, as is the ability to accuse others of such actions."

The fact you can't -accuse- anyone of rape is really nagging me too. Simply for the reason that there are a -lot- of mindsets in the world. What if my character -did- start saying he'd been raped after the fact? I'd given consent for sexual actions to occur on any level, and I'm fine with the consequences. But now I the player can't go down that side road in the plotline because staff laid a heavy ban over anything to do with it. (And yes, this comes before the possible rewording of the rules.) Sure, I can say she's a bad person who was using me - But what if my character wanted to lie to his friends to invoke the most primal response on the matter and have her eliminated?
"She's a bad person!"
"Alright. So?"
Yes. There are work around. Yes, I could have gone and hired an assassin. Yes, there are a hundred things I could have done. But what if I thought my character would rather abuse his friends trust in him to try and get her killed? I can't evoke the same reaction without a full blown lie that had nothing to do with the story. Lies are best when they're closest to the truth, and to get a reaction like that I would have to make up something unconvincing and untrue. Maybe I say she's a baby-molester? Nope, can't say that either. Maybe I say she's a murderer? Sure, that might work - But it's so far from the truth it has just as much a chance of being seen through.

Just my two cents.

[Patuk]

I think this issue could be solved easier if staff were to say 'we won't pour over the logs from third-party accusations anymore.' I really don't see how that'd be a bad thing.

[evilcabbage]

The rape thing affects more than just one player, is the issue. It affects a lot of people, and I've seen examples where the plots that spawn from this are very negative. Not getting consent for it can ruin somebody in a manner -far- too unfair to be legitimate even in Armageddon.

[FreeRangeVestric]

Are we ever going to be allowed to know what events led up to this decision? I really can't see what could cause so much hassle that it would be worth banning an entire concept from the gameworld. You would think people plotting to overthrow city-states and such would cause much more 'hassle' than scenes that are for the most part between two characters and nothing further. Was this issue so pervasive without my noticing that it was worth dealing with in this blanket way, rather than just dealing with specific players who are causing the problems?

I still remain wholly unconvinced that this is the correct direction for the game to go into. As strange as I feel going all Braveheart to defend fictional characters forcing each other into sex, and although I've never been involved in any 'rape plots,' as it were, I think this is a step in a very dangerous direction. It takes away player agency, which to me is the draw of this game, in an entirely OOC fashion. The way I see it, this is a case of a mature game pandering to players who were (I'm going off assumptions, since we haven't been told what issues caused this) being incredibly immature, rather than simply ignoring whatever sort of hassle they were attempting to create for the staff, and perhaps even throwing around bans if it was such a severe situation. Will this increase our 'Who' count by a couple numbers every night? Sure. But I'd take a lower number of mature players over playing to the lowest common denominator, myself.

[lordcooper]

Furthermore, while we are on this topic. What is the rule of consent? Does consenting once just give someone open rein to you time and time again until you specifically OOC them saying I don't consent anymore? How I've always played this is that I will ask consent EVERY time I am to do anything sexual. Unless I have asked in the past for consent until it is specifically taken away. It would appear, based on past events, that staff believes once consent is given it is valid no matter when you come back to the same person again. This I don't agree with. I will continue to treat consent as I have always done in the past until something clear and concise is brought forth in the form of help file documentation.

IIRC you have to ask for consent on each separate occasion.  This makes sense, because there may be people in the room that you are unaware of.

[Fujikoma]

Ok, I have gone back and forth in my own mind, largely ambivalent to the idea. While I would never have a PC of mine pursue such a plot, if it happened to mine I would allow it, and not FTB... But that's just me, some don't want to deal with it, or the resulting problems, and if consent is not granted then the plotline shouldn't take place even faded, unless the other party specifically would like it to, and murder for lack of consent should not be an option. If your PC was planning for that from the beginning, they should say OOC: My PC plans to murder your PC, whether or not certain violent actions of a sexual nature take place or not, do you consent to a scene involving sexual violence beforehand, would you rather it be faded, or not take place at all?

I don't like such plotlines, they hurt me somewhere deep inside OOC, but do I think that Zalanthas would be a believable place without them? No, I do not. Murder makes me sick too, as do corruption and betrayal, am I playing the wrong game? No. I'm playing the right game, I'm just not conforming. It still makes me feel ill, but it fits the setting. I think responsible players can sort it out for themselves, and maybe have a bit of OOC sympathy to go with it and not push the issue.

While I can't know what happened, I am disturbed that a few problem players could generate such a mess, but thankful that at least they are attracting attention away from my snowflake mary sue character so I can continue defiling the setting as I see fit. Blanket bans seem a bit extreme. Again, I would never pursue such a plotline, but I am not everyone and I think limiting the freedom of others to RP as they would choose to would be detrimental to the game. I have encountered PCs with rape or potential rape in more than their stories, and these PCs and their stories were very interesting. While they would have been interesting without that additional brush stroke, I think that's part of what I identified with within them OOC, it sort of added another dimension. Would there have been a connection without this element? Oh, yes, of course, but it's what really tugged at my strings and made me feel.

In conclusion, I ask that you strongly reconsider the blanket ban on these sorts of plotlines.

[slvrmoontiger]

Are we ever going to be allowed to know what events led up to this decision? I really can't see what could cause so much hassle that it would be worth banning an entire concept from the gameworld. You would think people plotting to overthrow city-states and such would cause much more 'hassle' than scenes that are for the most part between two characters and nothing further. Was this issue so pervasive without my noticing that it was worth dealing with in this blanket way, rather than just dealing with specific players who are causing the problems?

I still remain wholly unconvinced that this is the correct direction for the game to go into. As strange as I feel going all Braveheart to defend fictional characters forcing each other into sex, and although I've never been involved in any 'rape plots,' as it were, I think this is a step in a very dangerous direction. It takes away player agency, which to me is the draw of this game, in an entirely OOC fashion. The way I see it, this is a case of a mature game pandering to players who were (I'm going off assumptions, since we haven't been told what issues caused this) being incredibly immature, rather than simply ignoring whatever sort of hassle they were attempting to create for the staff, and perhaps even throwing around bans if it was such a severe situation. Will this increase our 'Who' count by a couple numbers every night? Sure. But I'd take a lower number of mature players over playing to the lowest common denominator, myself.

Staff has already said that they will not give out the information on what led up to this. I think its like beating a dead horse to continuously ask for this information.

[DustMight]

Re: rape plotlines not being allowed:

Good. I can think of tons of great fiction that have avoided this. It ain't needed 'round here neither.

[evilcabbage]

Re: rape plotlines not being allowed:

Good. I can think of tons of great fiction that have avoided this. It ain't needed 'round here neither.

I can think of tons of incredible fiction that have included this, even in ftb scenarios.

[DustMight]

Re: rape plotlines not being allowed:

Good. I can think of tons of great fiction that have avoided this. It ain't needed 'round here neither.

I can think of tons of incredible fiction that have included this, even in ftb scenarios.

Right.

The point stands though. It's not needed and with all the negative issues and problems it brings it is not worth it.
It's good to have it gone.

[bcw81]

Re: rape plotlines not being allowed:

Good. I can think of tons of great fiction that have avoided this. It ain't needed 'round here neither.

I can think of tons of incredible fiction that have included this, even in ftb scenarios.

Right.

The point stands though. It's not needed and with all the negative issues and problems it brings it is not worth it.
It's good to have it gone.

That's not why it was removed, and that's an invalid argument to having it removed. A lot of things we play with have negative issues appended to them. Rape simply has a very primal response built in to itself. That said - Staff banned it because people kept sending in complaints and they were tired of dealing with that shit. Hell, I'd get real tired of dealing with that shit after the first one.

[Desertman]

Yup, no moral issues were taken into consideration when this decision was made.

It was made for one reason and one reason only. Because the staff workload associated with player on player rape plotlines, or player on player rape accusations was getting out of hand.

The only outcome that is being taken into consideration in this discussion is the best way to reduce the staff workload while still allowing the playerbase freedom from censorship as much as possible.

That is the goal.

There is no, "Make the game a better place" goal, that was never even a factor in considering this new rule by staff.

(Though initially I thought it was. I'm glad that isn't the case.)

Plainly put, there is no PG13 fear mongering or backing on either side of the argument. You can't say, "We are trying to make the game PG13." because that isn't true. You also can't say, "This makes the game a better place." Because that isn't the goal.

The goal is decreased staff workload with as little censorship as possible to the playerbase.

(If anything beyond decreasing the staff workload was taken into consideration when implementing this rule, then it would be a direct move towards making the game more PG13 friendly, and a step in that direction. So, that can't be the case.)

[FreeRangeVestric]

But is having a new rule to enforce truly going to reduce staff workload? That seems backwards to me.

After all, there are almost certainly going to be disputes over what is acceptable under these new rules in the future. Despite having never been involved in what I'd consider a 'rape plotline,' I find myself wondering if things I was involved in will still be acceptable. Without getting into too much IC detail, things like unhealthy (abusive, maybe) relationships and authority figures abusing power to seduce someone who is none too fond of them seem to be natural parts of the world. Both led to interesting character development for me, besides that, and it seems to be rather blurry in both cases whether or not they will be allowed still.

I don't think there's a way to just remove an entire aspect of evil without 'softening' the game world, as it were. Particularly if the virtual and NPC populations are protected by these new rules, doesn't it mean its by definition impossible to make a character with zero moral scruples now?

[FantasyWriter]

Yeah, rape plotlines are likely on the extremely wasteful end of the value-added versus work-involved scale.
Up there with a lone PC who never interacts with anyone expecting to have his own permanent tent camp added to the game.

But is having a new rule to enforce truly going to reduce staff workload? That seems backwards to me.

Old way: Multiple emails back and forth to players and other staff to see who was in the wrong in a rape plot once a complaint is filed. No one is happy with the result so dealing with multiple staff complaints after the fact.

New way: One email: You violated the rulz expressed <here> concerning rape plotlines. Do it again and you will be banned for <x time period>. Again after that and you will be permanently banned from ArmageddonMUD.

It seems much easier to enforce to me.

[BadSkeelz]

After all, there are almost certainly going to be disputes over what is acceptable under these new rules in the future. Despite having never been involved in what I'd consider a 'rape plotline,' I find myself wondering if things I was involved in will still be acceptable. Without getting into too much IC detail, things like unhealthy (abusive, maybe) relationships and authority figures abusing power to seduce someone who is none too fond of them seem to be natural parts of the world. Both led to interesting character development for me, besides that, and it seems to be rather blurry in both cases whether or not they will be allowed still.

Staff are just going to have to come out and make it clear what they mean by "rape," as has been asked  of them and (I'm sure) will probably happen after the holidays. Right now you can read rape as everything from violent "subdued in the bazaar and asked for consent" sexual assault to an authority figure coercing someone in to a relationship. If an employer or police officer was using their position to gain sexual favors in real life, I wouldn't view it as very far from rape at all, but in Zalanthas... I'd be kind of sad to see that flavor of corruption gone (even if I can't really say why I'm less bothered by that than the violent stuff. More subdued, less visceral?). I've certainly seen a lot more unequal relationships get played out than sexual violence, and with less apparent trouble.

Do Staff intend for "rape" to be read so broadly? That's another question I'd really like to see answered.

[ale six]

Malken said it best (gogo House Kawaii, GDB Voice of Reason =^_^=) when he said:

I'm just going to play the same way I always have. If I get banned, I won't even be mad, I'll be amazed.

[slvrmoontiger]

I don't believe the workload is going to be any less until staff will define two things that I have been asking for over and over again and am waiting responses. The things that need to be defined are as follows:

1) Define Zalanthian rape. Just say what it is that isn't so hard. Everyone has their own concept as to what rape is. Mine could be completely different than staff's. Its not a matter that I'm calling people stupid or ignorant, its the matter that everyone has a different concept of things. Especially since this game is played by people from around the entire world. This should be defined, in fact it should have been defined long long ago.

2) Does one acceptance of OOC consent make it valid for follow up sessions if it isn't stipulated. Is that consent removed if the IC'ly a character tells another they don't want sex with them anymore? Again I'm looking for staff response on this because again everyone's opinion could possibly differ.

Beyond these two things being defined I don't care one way or another for the banning of rape either in action or as a plotline. I just care about getting definitions straight so I'm not wasting staff's time in the future and I don't wind up with a stored character and possible permaban in the future. I think everyone would want to know this information for the same reasons.

[Desertman]

staff will define two things that I have been asking for over and over again and am waiting responses.

December 25th was Christmas.

In the US, which is the country most of our staff members are currently citizens of, this is a holiday.

To further expand on that concept. This means they aren't replying to you, or really much of anyone/anything right now because they are taking a holiday break.

If I need to expand that further, it is a lost cause and I decline the acceptance of that responsibility.

[Zoan]

House Kawaii, GDB Voice of Reason =^_^=

Get outta here, ya crazy varmint!

[evilcabbage]

After all, there are almost certainly going to be disputes over what is acceptable under these new rules in the future. Despite having never been involved in what I'd consider a 'rape plotline,' I find myself wondering if things I was involved in will still be acceptable. Without getting into too much IC detail, things like unhealthy (abusive, maybe) relationships and authority figures abusing power to seduce someone who is none too fond of them seem to be natural parts of the world. Both led to interesting character development for me, besides that, and it seems to be rather blurry in both cases whether or not they will be allowed still.

Staff are just going to have to come out and make it clear what they mean by "rape," as has been asked  of them and (I'm sure) will probably happen after the holidays. Right now you can read rape as everything from violent "subdued in the bazaar and asked for consent" sexual assault to an authority figure coercing someone in to a relationship. If an employer or police officer was using their position to gain sexual favors in real life, I wouldn't view it as very far from rape at all, but in Zalanthas... I'd be kind of sad to see that flavor of corruption gone (even if I can't really say why I'm less bothered by that than the violent stuff. More subdued, less visceral?). I've certainly seen a lot more unequal relationships get played out than sexual violence, and with less apparent trouble.

Do Staff intend for "rape" to be read so broadly? That's another question I'd really like to see answered.

hi i am an evil cabbage and this is what rape is:

not consenting to sexual conduct.

solved.

"I want sexy times with you." "I do not consent."

Pursuit: Rape. End of discussion.

[evilcabbage]

I don't believe the workload is going to be any less until staff will define two things that I have been asking for over and over again and am waiting responses. The things that need to be defined are as follows:

1) Define Zalanthian rape. Just say what it is that isn't so hard. Everyone has their own concept as to what rape is. Mine could be completely different than staff's. Its not a matter that I'm calling people stupid or ignorant, its the matter that everyone has a different concept of things. Especially since this game is played by people from around the entire world. This should be defined, in fact it should have been defined long long ago.

2) Does one acceptance of OOC consent make it valid for follow up sessions if it isn't stipulated. Is that consent removed if the IC'ly a character tells another they don't want sex with them anymore? Again I'm looking for staff response on this because again everyone's opinion could possibly differ.

Beyond these two things being defined I don't care one way or another for the banning of rape either in action or as a plotline. I just care about getting definitions straight so I'm not wasting staff's time in the future and I don't wind up with a stored character and possible permaban in the future. I think everyone would want to know this information for the same reasons.

the general rule of thumb is ALWAYS ASK FOR CONSENT BECAUSE YOU DO NOT EVER EVER KNOW WHO IS WATCHING AT ANY GIVEN POINT IN TIME.

[Yasbusta]

I don't believe the workload is going to be any less until staff will define two things that I have been asking for over and over again and am waiting responses. The things that need to be defined are as follows:

1) Define Zalanthian rape. Just say what it is that isn't so hard. Everyone has their own concept as to what rape is. Mine could be completely different than staff's. Its not a matter that I'm calling people stupid or ignorant, its the matter that everyone has a different concept of things. Especially since this game is played by people from around the entire world. This should be defined, in fact it should have been defined long long ago.

2) Does one acceptance of OOC consent make it valid for follow up sessions if it isn't stipulated. Is that consent removed if the IC'ly a character tells another they don't want sex with them anymore? Again I'm looking for staff response on this because again everyone's opinion could possibly differ.

Beyond these two things being defined I don't care one way or another for the banning of rape either in action or as a plotline. I just care about getting definitions straight so I'm not wasting staff's time in the future and I don't wind up with a stored character and possible permaban in the future. I think everyone would want to know this information for the same reasons.

the general rule of thumb is ALWAYS ASK FOR CONSENT BECAUSE YOU DO NOT EVER EVER KNOW WHO IS WATCHING AT ANY GIVEN POINT IN TIME.

Pfftt, not really in line with the topic. But if I so choose to do naughty scenes with another char, I will ask for consent and if it becomes a repetitive thing
I ask for a blanket consent, noting that ftb is always wonderful. If accepted no more consent ooc's. If you follow my char without my knowledge, to my apartment with another char, I couldn't care less whether you consent or not, you knew what was happening, its your own damn fault.
Besides if you don't consent you can always OOC I don't wish to watch your fabulous nekkid times, would you open the door so I can leave.