Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines

[Dakota]

Anyway, if you were psychologically traumatized by witnessing murder and torture, would you come to a game that has Murder in the tagline?

No, and that's my point. People are making the rape thing an issue because it's being allowed to be made an issue. If staff just said,

"Look, rape happens. If you don't want to play a victim, you have the right to deny consent to play a victim. If the other party tries to make you a victim anyhow, log it and send a request, and they will be punished. Beyond that, we don't want to hear about how it hurts your feelings to hear about it at all. If you send us frivolous requests regarding this issue, in which you are not specifically being forced into a victim role, the punishment will be handed out to you for wasting staff's time. Have a great day."

This would weed out those too sensitive to deal with that type of mature content in any way, while maintaining the integrity of the game. I haven't seen a lot of rape in the game, but I certainly believe that it should have a right to exist.

+

I roleplayed with someone who's character had been raped in her backstory, and it totally shaped her playstyle. I enjoyed RPing with that character, probably moreso than any other character I've ever interacted with, and this new rule would have made that character not exist, at least in the form that she did.

Both of these points are dead on.

[Delirium]

In Zalanthas, it's extremely unlikely that rape would be treated as more than violent assault. It would not carry the same sexual stigma and shame and issues as it does in the real world. Since this thread has done little but prove that the playerbase as a whole is not capable of thinking in those terms, I'm glad that rape plotlines have been removed. No one has said that you can't keep the virtual gameworld and its consequences in mind, or reflect that they exist.

edited for less pre-coffee snark.

[Desertman]

Haede is right. But being right doesn't matter. You can be right all day long, and it won't matter because you don't have the power here.

Staff has already said the rule is going to stick. Even if they decided they felt differently at this point, the rule would stick regardless because that is just how it is. The rule HAS to stick at this point because that is the stance that has been taken. You can't back down off of your stance once you have taken it.

So let's let that go.

At this point they have said they may be willing to re-word some of the rules in a way that would allow us to keep rape in at least the virtual world and in our mindsets/backgrounds and for roleplay purposes that aren't PC to PC.

Let's focus on not having that taken away from us for no reason at this point.

[Lizzie]

In Zalanthas, it's extremely unlikely that rape would be treated as more than violent assault. It would not carry the same sexual stigma and shame and issues as it does in the real world. Since this thread has done little but prove that the playerbase as a whole is not capable of thinking in those terms, I'm glad it's been removed from the (non-virtual) game. No one has said that you can't keep the virtual gameworld in mind. That's called roleplaying.

Yeah, they have said you can't keep it in mind, to the extent that you're not allowed to RP your character's behavior as a result of the virtual background. In other words -

If Lady Templar asks the city elf, "Why do you keep shoving my pet human aide's attempts to feed you away from you?"

You're not _allowed_ to tell her it's because you and your mother were both raped by humans and as a result, you reject human assistance.

At that point you'd probably need to just go OOC and tell them that the game rules don't allow you to consent to the discussion that might normally take place, and therefore the templar needs to just drop the subject.

That's roleplaying huh? No. It isn't. It's avoiding roleplay.

[Desertman]

You can put that your pc was a rapist in the background. You can't play out being a rapist in game, even if it's purely in mindset and not action.

[Delirium]

As I understand it via reading the rest of the thread, you are allowed to say so, you just aren't allowed to finger a PC as the culprit (therefore creating a plot that brings it into the non-virtual, non-backstory world). You people have made fearmongering and overreaction into an artform.

[Desertman]

- You cannot accuse a VNPC of raping your character.
- You cannot sit in a tavern and tell the story of your PC being raped.
- You cannot persecute a VNPC for rape, because rape should not be part of an active storyline.
- If you include rape in your pc's background it should remain as that, background.  

(Not disagreeing with you Delirium, trust me I WANT you to be right. I'm just quoting the guidelines that make us both disappointed.)

[Cutthroat]

In Zalanthas, it's extremely unlikely that rape would be treated as more than violent assault. It would not carry the same sexual stigma and shame and issues as it does in the real world. Since this thread has done little but prove that the playerbase as a whole is not capable of thinking in those terms, I'm glad that rape plotlines have been removed.

Me too, and for the same reasons.

Only in this community can staff put more of a focus on genuine "murder, corrpution, betrayal" plots and get this vitriolic response where players are screaming that other players are too sensitive for this game or that they will simply disregard the rules and let the chips fall where they may.

The actual wording of the rule is a valid concern but that is something that will be worked out over time. It doesn't really help that people are setting up laughable strawmen that wouldn't pass muster in a middle school debate club as arguments entirely against the rule, though.

[Adhira]

- You cannot accuse a VNPC of raping your character.
- You cannot sit in a tavern and tell the story of your PC being raped.
- You cannot persecute a VNPC for rape, because rape should not be part of an active storyline.
- If you include rape in your pc's background it should remain as that, background.  

(Not disagreeing with you Delirium, trust me I WANT you to be right. I'm just quoting the guidelines that make us both disappointed.)

Dude.  As I later said we're going to be reworking the wording.  I just haven't gotten too it because you know. Xmas, Birthday and other stuff.  Please give us a couple of days.  We should have some helpfile updates by then.

[BadSkeelz]

Happy birthday Adhira!

[Adhira]

And FYI, Delirium and Cutthroat are both right.

[Adhira]

Happy birthday Adhira!

Thanks

[Desertman]

- You cannot accuse a VNPC of raping your character.
- You cannot sit in a tavern and tell the story of your PC being raped.
- You cannot persecute a VNPC for rape, because rape should not be part of an active storyline.
- If you include rape in your pc's background it should remain as that, background.  

(Not disagreeing with you Delirium, trust me I WANT you to be right. I'm just quoting the guidelines that make us both disappointed.)

Dude.  As I later said we're going to be reworking the wording.  I just haven't gotten too it because you know. Xmas, Birthday and other stuff.  Please give us a couple of days.  We should have some helpfile updates by then.

I'm right there with you (and many thanks for that btw). My previous posts pointed out exactly that. I was more just pointing out WHY people are up in Arms with the initial wording. I should have thrown in a line that it has already been said it will be looked at again.

At this point they have said they may be willing to re-word some of the rules in a way that would allow us to keep rape in at least the virtual world and in our mindsets/backgrounds and for roleplay purposes that aren't PC to PC.

[Adhira]

I didn't bother reading all the other posts, I admit. I just read the last like... 3.   

[TheWanderer]

Doesn't matter. Thread's pretty much become...

Everybody just wants to voice their opinion.

[boog]

In Zalanthas, it's extremely unlikely that rape would be treated as more than violent assault. It would not carry the same sexual stigma and shame and issues as it does in the real world. Since this thread has done little but prove that the playerbase as a whole is not capable of thinking in those terms, I'm glad that rape plotlines have been removed. No one has said that you can't keep the virtual gameworld and its consequences in mind, or reflect that they exist.

edited for less pre-coffee snark.

It's been mentioned, or at least touched upon by others.

This holier than thou attitude held by some players is disheartening. Calling others immature or otherwise insulting their arguments is, to me, worse than discussing fictional rape around the holidays.

[Patuk]

I still am saddened that this ban was deemed needed.

I guess I just don't like having to pander to people who can't detach from earth's morality very well.

[Kalai]

I still am saddened that this ban was deemed needed.

I guess I just don't like having to pander to people who can't detach from earth's morality very well.

Not up for expressing exactly why right now, but you should know the second sentence of this makes my skin crawl, for callousness on an OOC level.

[BadSkeelz]

I still am saddened that this ban was deemed needed.

I guess I just don't like having to pander to people who can't detach from earth's morality very well.

Considering all the other forms of murder, corruption, and in-character asshattery we get up to, I doubt there's a serious inability of the playerbase to "detach from earth's morality." The change isn't about pandering to those who can't, it's about putting a stop to an issue that was sucking up a disproportionate amount of staff attention and energy.

[Patuk]

I still am saddened that this ban was deemed needed.

I guess I just don't like having to pander to people who can't detach from earth's morality very well.

Considering all the other forms of murder, corruption, and in-character asshattery we get up to, I doubt there's a serious inability of the playerbase to "detach from earth's morality." The change isn't about pandering to those who can't, it's about putting a stop to an issue that was sucking up a disproportionate amount of staff attention and energy.

The reason staff end up putting this much time into it is that, in the end, the playerbase seems unable to deal with rape in a Zalanthan manner. If accusing a person of rape didn't equate to social murder, this ban, or the issue of having to consent for rape accusations, would end up being not necessary at all.

[Kalai]

I still am saddened that this ban was deemed needed.

I guess I just don't like having to pander to people who can't detach from earth's morality very well.

Considering all the other forms of murder, corruption, and in-character asshattery we get up to, I doubt there's a serious inability of the playerbase to "detach from earth's morality." The change isn't about pandering to those who can't, it's about putting a stop to an issue that was sucking up a disproportionate amount of staff attention and energy.

The reason staff end up putting this much time into it is that, in the end, the playerbase seems unable to deal with rape in a Zalanthan manner. If accusing a person of rape didn't equate to social murder, this ban, or the issue of having to consent for rape accusations, would end up being not necessary at all.

All right, I can get behind being upset about treated in a heavily gendered / sexual stigma associated / non-Zalanthan manner being bad. Just ... sometimes the rhetoric skirts to a really unfortunate side of RL perspective, and that's OOCly upsetting.

[Harmless]

I guess the staff can change the game as they see fit, and expect to see resulting changes in the playerbase (*cough* especially in the age and maturity level of its players *cough*). If that's what they want to do, they obviously can do it.

I'm paranoid, though, and wonder if staff have been getting some kind of external pressure to modify this game. For example, is some player out there threatening to sue the game staff over something that happened IG?

----

Another thought on this topic. I've been partly involved in "rape plotlines" before. The most notable example was when one of my PCs was falsely accused of accusing someone of rape. The accusation stemmed from things my PC had said after a sexual encounter. From that experience, I learned how to do better, how not to say things that suggest that I am accusing someone of rape, when it wasn't meant. From that experience, I learned more about sexuality in the real world than I will ever be able to learn IN the real world. I grew as a person from it, basically, even IF at the time I was being a real baby about it.

The real world prohibits discussions and experiments in sexuality so strictly that people in the real world are becoming more and more infantile about sex. Now, that censorship has spread into my game -- my damned computer game -- and one of the last precious ways I had to explore sexuality in a safe environment is now being restricted by censorship.

With these rules, I would have been unable to have that experience. This is a damn shame, because I am really thankful for those experiences I had. I am glad I had them when I did, and I pity the entire playerbase for now losing the opportunity to learn about it, to explore those grey zones.

---

Maybe, in the future, this playerbase will change. But, that would require the world to change. They will have to have entered the game with, as a whole, more maturity than we do now.

However, players of MUDs aren't getting older or more mature. I think it's more likely the opposite, that our playerbase's average age is getting younger. That makes the likelihood of these rules ever being reversed VERY low indeed.

This makes me feel better, because I now feel like these rules are the inevitable consequence of a trend in roleplaying. However, I feel like it's pretty lame that the portion of us who can handle these topics are not allowed to play them out because of an overall trend in the playerbase that I admit exists. I would be much happier if there was a way we can restrict the roleplay of these actions to players who have proven their ability to handle it.

I will be the first to suggest that we make rape roleplay karma-required.

[evilcabbage]

I guess the staff can change the game as they see fit, and expect to see resulting changes in the playerbase (*cough* especially in the age and maturity level of its players *cough*). If that's what they want to do, they obviously can do it.

I'm paranoid, though, and wonder if staff have been getting some kind of external pressure to modify this game. For example, is some player out there threatening to sue the game staff over something that happened IG?

----

Another thought on this topic. I've been partly involved in "rape plotlines" before. The most notable example was when one of my PCs was falsely accused of accusing someone of rape. The accusation stemmed from things my PC had said after a sexual encounter. From that experience, I learned how to do better, how not to say things that suggest that I am accusing someone of rape, when it wasn't meant. From that experience, I learned more about sexuality in the real world than I will ever be able to learn IN the real world. I grew as a person from it, basically, even IF at the time I was being a real baby about it.

The real world prohibits discussions and experiments in sexuality so strictly that people in the real world are becoming more and more infantile about sex. Now, that censorship has spread into my game -- my damned computer game -- and one of the last precious ways I had to explore sexuality in a safe environment is now being restricted by censorship.

With these rules, I would have been unable to have that experience. This is a damn shame, because I am really thankful for those experiences I had. I am glad I had them when I did, and I pity the entire playerbase for now losing the opportunity to learn about it, to explore those grey zones.

---

Maybe, in the future, this playerbase will change. But, that would require the world to change. They will have to have entered the game with, as a whole, more maturity than we do now.

However, players of MUDs aren't getting older or more mature. I think it's more likely the opposite, that our playerbase's average age is getting younger. That makes the likelihood of these rules ever being reversed VERY low indeed.

This makes me feel better, because I now feel like these rules are the inevitable consequence of a trend in roleplaying. However, I feel like it's pretty lame that the portion of us who can handle these topics are not allowed to play them out because of an overall trend in the playerbase that I admit exists. I would be much happier if there was a way we can restrict the roleplay of these actions to players who have proven their ability to handle it.

I will be the first to suggest that we make rape roleplay karma-required.

Fuck, I have to have karma to roleplay a certain way now? Well shit, I guess it's a good thing you're not on staff making decisions like that.

Guys, let the damn staff get their thoughts coherently in order amongst the Collective so they can present clearcut things for us. Stop ragging on them.

[Narf]

I will be the first to suggest that we make rape roleplay karma-required.

Interesting idea. How would you propose enforcing this sort of restriction? Keep in mind players don't get to know each other's karma levels. Say I wanted to falsely accuse a rival of rape, how would this play out with a karma restriction when I didn't know if they had karma or not and couldn't obtain that information in any way?

New policies have to be implementable, and it doesn't matter how good your policy would be if it worked, if it can't possibly be made to work.

[Harmless]

thanks for the reply, evilcabbage. If anything, your reply makes me feel better about my suggestion.

Narf: I'm suggesting it, but I admit I haven't gone through and thought out the details, because I am not that invested in whether or not it happens.

I open it to those in this thread who have stated they want to have the freedom to roleplay these things out, to think of a workable system using karma to allow mature sexual RP. If nobody has posted a suggested system by the time I get back from my three-hour Hobbit #2 watching holiday experience, then I'll see if I can think of something.

Toodles until then.