Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines

[26 dollars]

I do believe, though, that those things are part of the world, and that while the ban on roleplaying these things is probably good for the game, perhaps taking any notion of them whatsoever away is taking away from the atmosphere.

[KankWhisperer]

I watched my brother die of cancer when I was twelve. The doctor gave all the Hispanic patients older treatments cutting their survival rate significantly Death upsets me. Prejudice upsets me. Not trying to say it's the same as being raped but by that logic I want all mention of death, sickness, and discrimination reconned
so I don't feel bad for volunteering to role play in a disgusting world full of all those things.

I don't believe these things are congruent.  Death is inevitable, and to an extent, so is prejudice.  Rape and child molestation are the product of a sick individual.  It doesn't matter how you frame it, they're always sickos, and there's no rational explanation for that behavior.  However, murder and prejudice are often necessary in the gameworld of Zalanthas, and that's why we deem it harsh.

Honestly, though, I find child abuse to be worse than rape, and I don't see anyone rushing to roleplay that shit out.  The difference there?  One is a crime on children, which makes you universally sick, and another is only predicated on females (99% of the time), and therefore only prejudicial in gender.

Are we really losing anything, there?  Not really.  If you've gotta use rape to scare people, you're not that scary.

My point to you is that banning it because it makes people uncomfortable with real life experiences doesn't make sense. Why are they playing -this- game? However, the staff has said that it just causes too many problems OOCly. The Staff's stated reason seems well reasonable.

[KankWhisperer]

I think I was more concerned with the censorship about what you could talk about before the clarification. And personally I don't think censoring people from talking about if it's a slippery slope relieves people's concerns about further censorship.

[Majikal]

I feel the maturity of the playerbase definitely just took a hit. More kid gloves. I've played rapists and I've played folks that have been raped. Both times were enjoyable experiences in the effect of storyline. If you can't roll with the punches on a mature RPI mud and you feel that ooc consent/ooc quit and the wish command isn't enough to protect your delicate mind from offensive storylines, then you settled on the wrong one.

[26 dollars]

re:  KankWhisperer

Ah, right.  Perhaps.  Let's just say, then, that it's a benefit of this ruling.  Censorship is a different beast, of course.

[slvrmoontiger]

I'd like to make a suggestion that a new help file go into place that is referred to in the Consent one. It would go along these lines.

Rape                                                                                                                                                                                                                        (Rules)

Rape is information that can only be included in a character's background. Its is not allowable for In Character Roleplay.

Rape is to be considered any sexual action towards another character (be it PC, NPC, or VNPC) that is considered to be of sexual nature.
This is to include, but is not limited to: kissing, fondling, groping, and penetration.

Any instances of rape will result in character storage and a request being opened to discuss things with the instigating player.

See Also: Consent

Of course wording probably needs to be worked on. My point however is I as do a few other players from what I am seeing in the various posts in this forum and others related suggest that it would be a better idea to come down on a hard definition. I believe doing this will also save a lot of stupid requests going in and wasting staff's time to figure out what is what.

[Patuk]

It just really, really, really irks me that this ban is necessary, and that those responsible for it might 'get away,' so to speak.

Somewhere out there, there's people who RP'd rape without according to even the previous, more lenient rules. I don't like that, and I really hope they got banned for all their worth.

But also out there is a bunch of whiteknighting douchebags who had nothing better to do than clog staff with reports about allegations of rape, giving them far more work looking into situations than they might be comfortable with.

Don't tell me I don't know about the second group: I know for a fact that such a situation has happened once before, and I very much doubt it was an isolated case. I also very heavily doubt that such extreme measures are going to help in the case of such inconsiderate people.

At the end of the day, what I resent is good people being barred from RP they may or may not wish to participate in, with the people responsible for it none the worse for wear and not held back from their silliness at all.

[Refugee]

"Honestly, though, I find child abuse to be worse than rape, and I don't see anyone rushing to roleplay that shit out.  The difference there?  One is a crime on children, which makes you universally sick, and another is only predicated on females (99% of the time), and therefore only prejudicial in gender.

Are we really losing anything, there?  Not really.  If you've gotta use rape to scare people, you're not that scary."

Hear hear, 26 Dollars!

[KankWhisperer]

After a bit of thought this is why I fear a slippery slope. Staff has stated that they didn't ban this activity because it violated personal principles or principles of the setting. They are banning it because it takes up too much Staff resources better spent elsewhere. Who knows what thing we players will start doing that takes up more than its fair share of resources next? It seems in the realm of possibility that something else could be next.

[FreeRangeVestric]

I get that taking the actual playing out of such scenes solves a lot of OOC drama for the staff caused by a loud and idiotic minority of players. I don't get why we need to get rid of rape and sexual torture as things that can be so much as discussed, used as a threat, or hell, even played out virtually. That just seems to soften the world to a point that makes Armageddon feel much less like Armageddon to me. I remember a 'tough-girl' sort of character of mine musing with another about Nobles who have more power than them, but are physically weaker as well. The conversation got rather lewd, as conversations on Zalanthas have a way of doing, and specific PC nobility were mentioned, although everything was entirely hypothetical and understood as such. I suppose now such a discussion would get me stored? That seems oddly un-Armageddonlike, to me.

Anyway, just my two 'sids. I'll play by these new rules, of course, but I feel like censoring what sort of mindset my character can or cannot have or what they can or cannot talk about (even when the mindsets or discussion topics follow logically from the world and events around them) is something I may be unable to do. Though I've never played out or even faded a rape scene, I fear violating these rules entirely accidentally, since staff posts are somewhat contradicting themselves at this point and are setting rather blurry lines.

[Fujikoma]

Honestly, I've never had the desire to pursue a scene involving rape, and it kind of turns my stomach, but it gives my characters an excellent reason to hate other characters, which is something I struggle to find while playing. I personally wouldn't fade such a scene if it were happening to my character, though I probably wouldn't enjoy it. There have been some, uh, questionable things which have happened to my characters, who may have been unwilling but it happened anyway, and just maybe they weren't so unhappy with it afterwards, I would support a person's right to object to such treatment of their character, though I would not myself, as it becomes another important experience in my character's existence, something they remember the next time Amosa, Malik and/or Derpina try to lure them away somewhere quiet. I guess it all depends on where you draw the line and say, "This here is allowed, and this isn't.", as there seem to be many, many shades between black and white.

Another concern, previously voiced, that gives one pause is, where did the half-elves come from, then? (this is more a recommendation for a fix should rape continue to be a bannable offense and has little to do with my opinion on the matter) I suppose the documentation on taboos could be loosened a little to allow for it to happen very rarely, make it so elves, humans and breeds get along better, but then, where's the fun in playing a breed? Where's the fun in your elf and their human mate trying desperately to hide a relationship when they can't stop eying the other in the bar and blushing? Well, I guess if the documentation allowed it to happen willingly slightly more often, there wouldn't be the added fear that you're doing completely the wrong thing by playing out these scenarios. I personally report all my improper doings, but I worry staff will tire of me -always- doing the wrong thing. If more than one person is doing it (and trust me, it's not unique), then it isn't a unique snowflake situation, though it is somewhat rare. I guess the social consequences needn't change, but perhaps it could be a more accepted way of playing from an OOC perspective.

I know it works on Prpi, with few problems (other than no one really plays anymore), but again, it depends on how you define what is, and isn't against the rules, I think.

[26 dollars]

After a bit of thought this is why I fear a slippery slope. Staff has stated that they didn't ban this activity because it violated personal principles or principles of the setting. They are banning it because it takes up too much Staff resources better spent elsewhere. Who knows what thing we players will start doing that takes up more than its fair share of resources next? It seems in the realm of possibility that something else could be next.

Maybe the problem is the player complaint tool (and by proxy, the players who abuse it).  I've never once had to use the complaint tool, though I've felt justified at least once (and received communication from staff to let me know I was within rights).

One wonders if the same subset of players will continue to abuse the complaint tool, or if this was merely a matter of rape being too sensitive for this group dynamic (we are getting a lot of newer players, these days).

[BadSkeelz]

I remember a 'tough-girl' sort of character of mine musing with another about Nobles who have more power than them, but are physically weaker as well. The conversation got rather lewd, as conversations on Zalanthas have a way of doing, and specific PC nobility were mentioned, although everything was entirely hypothetical and understood as such. I suppose now such a discussion would get me stored? That seems oddly un-Armageddonlike, to me.

Anyway, just my two 'sids. I'll play by these new rules, of course, but I feel like censoring what sort of mindset my character can or cannot have or what they can or cannot talk about (even when the mindsets or discussion topics follow logically from the world and events around them) is something I may be unable to do. Though I've never played out or even faded a rape scene, I fear violating these rules entirely accidentally, since staff posts are somewhat contradicting themselves at this point and are setting rather blurry lines.

I don't think you have anything to worry about, Vestric. From Adhira's post:

Rape/Sexual Torture plotlines are not to be played out in the game. You may choose to place such a storyline as background to your pc at creation, however, this cannot be played out in the actual game world. This extends to accusations of rape, as well -- You may not accuse another PC of raping your PC or another PC (or NPC/VNPC for that matter). If you do so, your character will be stored and a discussion will be opened via the request tool as to further action. You may not ask for consent to rape another PC, as these plot lines cannot be pursued in ArmageddonMUD.

Don't try to rape PCs, NPCs, or VNPCs. Don't say a PC has raped you or another PC, NPC, or VNPC.

Lewd conversations sound like to be completely fair game.

[SmashedTregil]

To be entirely honest. Someone had to be very seriously ridiculous in their thinking to file complaints of this nature. And yet, you cannot really censor complaints, or let people second guess themselves on what is worthy of a complaint and what's not. If that happens, people would allow too many things to go past them, that they really shouldn't. Very unfortunate. I understand rape was always a touchy subject. Someone who experienced it, would never ever want to be part of any plotline that involved it in any way. It might be a real horror for them to end up experiencing a plotline, on the 'giving' end, as running a character who got accused of rape.

Would've been better if Imms just made creation of 'new' plotlines that involved an act of rape to be forbidden. So any performance that a player would potentially feel they should ask a request a consent for, if it involves rape, the answer is always 'no'.  Yet leaving any virtual rape concept, as well as storytelling stemming from such things to be viable and permissible. People would not be afraid to 'discuss' rape of the past. While threatening rape would become something similar to threatening enslavement. Always a possibility, but the real result is the end of the character and usually reserved to virtual characters, or organizations.

As long as it is well written in the docs and absorbed by the playerbase, most people would understand that any talk of rape, is a talk of a 'virtual' act. It wouldnt stop people from using these plots to bring harm to other characters, but it will always be understood on an OOC level, that such accusations always have other factors playing part. If your enemy cant accuse you of being rapist, he'll accuse you of being a mind bender, or a secret breed, or a magicker, or a damned red head.


PS: I once asked a southron noble if they can ask their guard to leave the room, so I could do ...  things with her, while being a northerner breed myself. Is that illegal now? .

[BadSkeelz]

I'm inclined to think the "Someone complained to much" line of reasoning is a myth. Partly because I find it a kind of distasteful reasoning, but largely because I was part of a rape plotline tangle, and the only report I had filed was one noting its existence. I think the real weak point was in the Consent documentation: I'm not sure it was ever spelled out that accusing a PC of rape was tantamount to that PC being raped, and required the same level of consent. That is where I saw trouble arise.

[FreeRangeVestric]

I don't think you have anything to worry about, Vestric. From Adhira's post:

Rape/Sexual Torture plotlines are not to be played out in the game. You may choose to place such a storyline as background to your pc at creation, however, this cannot be played out in the actual game world. This extends to accusations of rape, as well -- You may not accuse another PC of raping your PC or another PC (or NPC/VNPC for that matter). If you do so, your character will be stored and a discussion will be opened via the request tool as to further action. You may not ask for consent to rape another PC, as these plot lines cannot be pursued in ArmageddonMUD.

Don't try to rape PCs, NPCs, or VNPCs. Don't say a PC has raped you or another PC, NPC, or VNPC.

Lewd conversations sound like to be completely fair game.

That seems to indeed be the case, going by that post. But as another posted (on around page 4), there seems to be a discrepancy between that and the idea that you cannot 'sit at a tavern and tell a story about rape,' as was stated in another staff post. I also take issue with the idea that you cannot have your character virtually raping (not even in 'faded' scenes, but in ones that occur 'off-camera,' as it were, when you're logged out) virtual game characters. Who is that helping, exactly? It just seems to be a needless limitation on the sorts of vile characters that we are able to play, which goes against my concept of this game.

The lines just seem unclear to me, at this point. Maybe that's just the nature of the beast the rules are in relation to, though. *shrugs*

[A Large Bag]

I don't care about this either way really other than I am disappointed in the playerbase for making it an issue for staff and to cause this to even have to be done. I witnessed the aftermath of rapes in game a few times, did not have a character directly involved in them in my time here so I don't think we're missing much. There are plenty of alternatives of "bad stuff" you can do to other pcs here if necessary and IC.

[A Large Bag]

Oh and is necrophilia still okay to rp? Just checking...

[26 dollars]

I'm inclined to think the "Someone complained to much" line of reasoning is a myth.

Yes, but we don't really know.  All we know is that it was becoming too much of a mess for staff, and it's not hard to follow that their energy could be spent better elsewhere.

Anyway, this doesn't affect me.  I never encountered it, and if I had, my characters would've ignored it as commonplace.  OOCly, I'm glad it's gone.  I would argue that people should be able to say abusive remarks like, "I'll rape your mother, you jerk!"  But it's really whatever.

[Barzalene]

I feel like it's unfair to say that those who complained were not recognizing the harshness of the game. From my limited perspective I can imagine complaints that were not about excess harshness.

I personally, will not miss being knocked down in the middle of the bazaar and being asked to consent to rape. I didn't complain. I did find it skeevy.

I also think that protecting the vnpc population is an odd choice. I'd love to hear more about just that part of the decision.

[BadSkeelz]

That seems to indeed be the case, going by that post. But as another posted (on around page 4), there seems to be a discrepancy between that and the idea that you cannot 'sit at a tavern and tell a story about rape,' as was stated in another staff post.

If push comes to shove, I'd cite a Staff Announcements post by a Producer (and subsequent Document changes) over a post that went up at like, 2am. Or at least ask for the reasoning in the post to be made more official.

Also, as I recall from Adhira's "rape story at the bar" post, the issue was that PCs were being mistaken for the (virtual) rapist in the story, which amount to a rape accusation even though the "reporting" party didn't even mean it as such. All of a sudden you get players noting that "Some person said someone fitting Amos' description is a rapist" in character reports, Staff have to investigate, time and energy need to be diverted... At the worse case scenario (that a PC-to-PC act never happened and someone has been accused of rape without consenting to such), roleplay gets disrupted as people need to change gears in their reactions or see things be retconned entirely... I can totally see why Staff have nixed PC-to-PC rape and rape-related scenarios.

However...

I also take issue with the idea that you cannot have your character virtually raping (not even in 'faded' scenes, but in ones that occur 'off-camera,' as it were, when you're logged out) virtual game characters. Who is that helping, exactly? It just seems to be a needless limitation on the sorts of vile characters that we are able to play, which goes against my concept of this game.

I also think that protecting the vnpc population is an odd choice. I'd love to hear more about just that part of the decision.

I agree that this is a rather debatable point and wouldn't mind further elaboration from staff, if they feel it's appropriate.

[mansa]

- You cannot ask someone for consent to rape their pc.
- You cannot accuse an PC, NPC or VNPC of raping your character.
- You cannot sit in a tavern and tell the story of your PC being raped.
- You cannot play out a rape storyline even if the other person you are playing with is consenting.
- You cannot persecute another PC, NPC or VNPC for rape, because rape should not be part of an active storyline.
- If you include rape in your pc's background it should remain as that, background.  You can use it to shape your pc's world view, you cannot use it as a motivation to kill all tall, muscular men because they have reminded you of a terrible situation. If it's in your background you can use it as internal motivation, the moment you externalize it, it becomes an in game storyline.

I was also hoping we could make these examples into a rape helpfile.

[Fujikoma]

Also, I'm kind of wondering what sexual torture involves. This is not very clear to me.

[Narf]

I watched my brother die of cancer when I was twelve. The doctor gave all the Hispanic patients older treatments cutting their survival rate significantly Death upsets me. Prejudice upsets me. Not trying to say it's the same as being raped but by that logic I want all mention of death, sickness, and discrimination reconned
so I don't feel bad for volunteering to role play in a disgusting world full of all those things.

I don't believe these things are congruent.  Death is inevitable, and to an extent, so is prejudice.  Rape and child molestation are the product of a sick individual.  It doesn't matter how you frame it, they're always sickos, and there's no rational explanation for that behavior.  However, murder and prejudice are often necessary in the gameworld of Zalanthas, and that's why we deem it harsh.

Honestly, though, I find child abuse to be worse than rape, and I don't see anyone rushing to roleplay that shit out.  The difference there?  One is a crime on children, which makes you universally sick, and another is only predicated on females (99% of the time), and therefore only prejudicial in gender.

Are we really losing anything, there?  Not really.  If you've gotta use rape to scare people, you're not that scary.

My point to you is that banning it because it makes people uncomfortable with real life experiences doesn't make sense. Why are they playing -this- game? However, the staff has said that it just causes too many problems OOCly. The Staff's stated reason seems well reasonable.

I imagine it's a matter of degree. We live in a society where rape is ... felt to be worse than murder. In fiction if you really want your main character to be hated by the audience, you have him (gendered intentionally) commit rape.

It doesn't make sense from an objective standpoint, it seems like murder /should/ be far worse than rape, but in our culture it isn't. There's a lot of reasons for this: puritanical views of sex, and the idea that sex can 'despoil' someone, first world senses of empowerment for individuals, and the very fact that people survive rape and thus the impact it has on them is felt for their lifetime... Not a problem for murder.

As a result people are psychologically more affected by issues of rape than they are for murder. In other societies this isn't the case.

If you try to make sense of why rape is worse than murder without a massive amount of cultural context, it's tough or impossible to understand. But the fact remains, for whatever reasons rape has a greater emotional impact on people than every other objectively worse fate.

[Patuk]

I watched my brother die of cancer when I was twelve. The doctor gave all the Hispanic patients older treatments cutting their survival rate significantly Death upsets me. Prejudice upsets me. Not trying to say it's the same as being raped but by that logic I want all mention of death, sickness, and discrimination reconned
so I don't feel bad for volunteering to role play in a disgusting world full of all those things.

I don't believe these things are congruent.  Death is inevitable, and to an extent, so is prejudice.  Rape and child molestation are the product of a sick individual.  It doesn't matter how you frame it, they're always sickos, and there's no rational explanation for that behavior.  However, murder and prejudice are often necessary in the gameworld of Zalanthas, and that's why we deem it harsh.

Honestly, though, I find child abuse to be worse than rape, and I don't see anyone rushing to roleplay that shit out.  The difference there?  One is a crime on children, which makes you universally sick, and another is only predicated on females (99% of the time), and therefore only prejudicial in gender.

Are we really losing anything, there?  Not really.  If you've gotta use rape to scare people, you're not that scary.

My point to you is that banning it because it makes people uncomfortable with real life experiences doesn't make sense. Why are they playing -this- game? However, the staff has said that it just causes too many problems OOCly. The Staff's stated reason seems well reasonable.

I imagine it's a matter of degree. We live in a society where rape is ... felt to be worse than murder. In fiction if you really want your main character to be hated by the audience, you have him (gendered intentionally) commit rape.

It doesn't make sense from an objective standpoint, it seems like murder /should/ be far worse than rape, but in our culture it isn't. There's a lot of reasons for this: puritanical views of sex, and the idea that sex can 'despoil' someone, first world senses of empowerment for individuals, and the very fact that people survive rape and thus the impact it has on them is felt for their lifetime... Not a problem for murder.

As a result people are psychologically more affected by issues of rape than they are for murder. In other societies this isn't the case.

If you try to make sense of why rape is worse than murder without a massive amount of cultural context, it's tough or impossible to understand. But the fact remains, for whatever reasons rape has a greater emotional impact on people than every other objectively worse fate.

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