Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines

[Malken]

This new rule wasn't put in place to coddle players whose PCs are victims of rape, or even players whose PCs are accused of rape. The rule was put in place to eliminate confusion in plots and a cheap way to kill PCs. People in this thread keep thinking the rule was set up to benefit certain players. The rule was set up to benefit staff and streamline what happens IG. It also forces players to focus more on the other "harsh" things PCs can do to each other, which are incidentally things players can't put player complaints about as much.

When most PKs are done "because my PC can use the 16 sids this pair of pants will fetch to feed himself" excuse, I don't buy your "cheap ways to kill PCs" reasoning.

[Desertman]

I would love see some of the complaints that actually led to this rule.

"But, your PC wasn't raped. You can't use the rape complaint if you weren't raped."

"But now people think I might have raped! That isn't fair! I feel violated personally and sort of raped!"

And thus, a rule was born.

Can I call those people stupid and not be labeled as insensitive to rape victims?

[ale six]

Then again, I remember someone on the board recounting the fate of their hapless Borsail aide, who was turned over to the mul-birthing division (and presumably stored) as a punishment of  their lord after he botched an assassination plot. That's always stuck with me as the most horrifying and Zalanthan ending to a character I've heard of.

That was me. And that death, traumatic though it was at the time, is actually one of the reasons I got hooked on this game. Remembering moments like that is what convinced me to come back after a five year break. But in Reneli's case, nothing about the mul-birthing was roleplayed out at all. They told her what was going to happen, she was led out of the room, and it was curtains/storage. I wouldn't have been comfortable with much beyond that anyway. I think (I hope!) that such things wouldn't be considered off limits under the new policy. (And in the 25 some posts that happened since I started replying, JESUS,, Eurynomos confirmed this is still okay. Cool.)

Another time on the templar I played, I emoted grabbing the ass of an aidey type I was on familiar terms with. I didn't ask for consent beforehand, which was my mistake, and the player I groped took exception to it. Staff shot me a message and asked me to send an apology to the player through them, which I did, and I did genuinely feel bad. I don't get the feeling this would be handled any differently under the new policy, but I just want to mention it because there are grey areas, and what seems okay to some won't be to others. Asking for staff to list out a bunch of okay/not okay activities is going to get messy, so we need to trust them to handle things like this carefully and delicately.

Armageddon is the only game I can think of where the admins will say "Hey, you can't rape people under any circumstances", and it would stir debate. That's a testament to the maturity level and the mindset you need to play here. Disneyland this is not. I won't shed any tears over rape being flat out of bounds between characters.

[Cutthroat]

Player 1 OOCs: consent to rape?
Player 2 OOCs: no
Player 1 kills player 2.

That is what I mean. Other RPIs have similar rules about rape, probably for the same reasons. It generates less of a headache for staff trying to sort out what just happened and, again, leaves open other avenues where PCs can act out against each other to achieve the same overall result (maintaining the atmosphere of the game and some end result of a plot).

[Yummri]

This new rule wasn't put in place to coddle players whose PCs are victims of rape, or even players whose PCs are accused of rape. The rule was put in place to eliminate confusion in plots and a cheap way to kill PCs. People in this thread keep thinking the rule was set up to benefit certain players. The rule was set up to benefit staff and streamline what happens IG. It also forces players to focus more on the other "harsh" things PCs can do to each other, which are incidentally things players can't put player complaints about as much.

This is exactly why it was done to my mind. Everyone just needs to let this go now. What's done is done and the admins already said they weren't blanket banning anything else.

*dusts off his hands*

[williamson]

This new rule wasn't put in place to coddle players whose PCs are victims of rape, or even players whose PCs are accused of rape. The rule was put in place to eliminate confusion in plots and a cheap way to kill PCs. People in this thread keep thinking the rule was set up to benefit certain players. The rule was set up to benefit staff and streamline what happens IG. It also forces players to focus more on the other "harsh" things PCs can do to each other, which are incidentally things players can't put player complaints about as much.

"Amos is a rapist magicker."

[Desertman]

Player 1 OOCs: consent to rape?
Player 2 OOCs: no
Player 1 kills player 2.

This deserves a complaint. Not because of rape. Because rape didn't happen.

This deserves a complaint for poor RP/poor player sensitivity to the OOC rules of the game.

It should go this way:

Played 1 OOC: My PC intends to kill yours. You are going to die. You can roleplay the before rape, or fade to black. I am fine either way.
Player 2 OOC: Fair enough. I would prefer to fade and go to the combat.
Player 1 OOC: No problem.

That isn't a rape complaint issue. It should never be filed as one. It does not back this rule.

[allieday1]

Soon we can go in taverns and see npc there with a ? over their head and we can do quest

[Malken]

Player 1 OOCs: consent to rape?
Player 2 OOCs: no
Player 1 kills player 2.

That is what I mean. Other RPIs have similar rules about rape, probably for the same reasons. It generates less of a headache for staff trying to sort out what just happened and, again, leaves open other avenues where PCs can act out against each other to achieve the same overall result (maintaining the atmosphere of the game and some end result of a plot).

10 years ago I would have laughed at you and say that our playerbase would never stoop so low, but I've long lost confidence in the maturity and savoir-vivre of most of them so I buy your reasoning and accept it.

[Cutthroat]

This new rule wasn't put in place to coddle players whose PCs are victims of rape, or even players whose PCs are accused of rape. The rule was put in place to eliminate confusion in plots and a cheap way to kill PCs. People in this thread keep thinking the rule was set up to benefit certain players. The rule was set up to benefit staff and streamline what happens IG. It also forces players to focus more on the other "harsh" things PCs can do to each other, which are incidentally things players can't put player complaints about as much.

"Amos is a rapist magicker."

Summoning the pitchfork mob isn't what I meant, but I should have been more clear, though I tried to clarify that in my previous post.

[BadSkeelz]

Rape is also definitely an easy way to drum up animosity against a character (which can easily lead to PK). Not that I'll ever apologize for such animosity, I just have a deeper appreciation for other forms of evil-doing roleplay in this game.

[williamson]

Player 1 OOCs: consent to rape?
Player 2 OOCs: no
Player 1 kills player 2.

That is what I mean. Other RPIs have similar rules about rape, probably for the same reasons. It generates less of a headache for staff trying to sort out what just happened and, again, leaves open other avenues where PCs can act out against each other to achieve the same overall result (maintaining the atmosphere of the game and some end result of a plot).

Player 1 OOCs: consent to rape torture?
Player 2 OOCs: no
Player 1 kills player 2.

These problems still exist.

[Cutthroat]

Player 1 OOCs: consent to rape?
Player 2 OOCs: no
Player 1 kills player 2.

That is what I mean. Other RPIs have similar rules about rape, probably for the same reasons. It generates less of a headache for staff trying to sort out what just happened and, again, leaves open other avenues where PCs can act out against each other to achieve the same overall result (maintaining the atmosphere of the game and some end result of a plot).

Player 1 OOCs: consent to rape torture?
Player 2 OOCs: no
Player 1 kills player 2.

These problems still exist.

Nope.

In the case of asking for consent for torture you're asking specifically to RP out the scene of torture. If they don't give consent, they've still been tortured after the FTB is over.

However, in the case of asking for rape consent you are asking to carry out the plot as a whole. If they deny to give consent you've revealed your PC's designs on them and might be inclined for your PC to deal with that somehow, even if such motivations are OOC. At least that was before this new rule. Now this problem is eliminated entirely. With rape being out of the picture, your PC is only allowed to do things to other PCs that don't require advertising that intent beforehand.

[Refugee]

Why would you store or suicide a PC after being part of a "rape plot" if you need to consent to it beforehand..?

Don't really care either way about this, by the way, just curious..

I can only guess, but I think it probably has to do with consequences on either side being unexpected.  From watching these things play out, I'd guess that people considered the PC thereafter to be unplayable?  Especially for the accused who might not have considered the consequences (and maybe didn't even do the deed).

I'm surprised about D-man's statement that it's not the primary players themselves that have complained.  That's not what I'd've expected.  Although now I think that it's probably clan leaders, who have to deal with this frustrating stuff over and over again.

[flurry]

Player 1 OOCs: consent to rape?
Player 2 OOCs: no
Player 1 kills player 2.

This exact scenario happened to me, but I did not send in a complaint, because I can't know what the Player 1's intent was. (I debated about reporting it anyway, just in case that is Player 1's m.o., and there's a pattern. I didn't though.) I was creeped out, however, by the fact that Player 1 chose to lead off the scene with that consent request, when there was practically no history between the characters, and apparently no plot line being advanced in any way. I still wonder if my character was killed because I didn't indulge Player 1 in a gratuitous rape scene, but only that player knows if that's the case or not.

[evilcabbage]

I think this is weak and I don't agree with it, but I will unfortunately have to deal with it.

[Desertman]

I'm just so very disappointed that our playerbase is now the sorts of people who would send in enough complaints about this sort of thing to even warrant the staff to have to take this sort of action.

I have bragged I don't know how many times to people I have introduced to the game that we have the best, most mature, and intelligent playerbase of any game I have ever played.

I won't be able to do that anymore because we apparently have enough people filing false rape complaints, not getting the proper OOC consent ahead of time, and filing other silly nonsense that the staff is having to do universal blanket rules and thought policing/wide scale RP censoring just to keep us from being morons.

I want to apologize to staff on their behalf. Ten years ago, this wouldn't have happened. The game hasn't changed. Only the players.

And with that, I am done with this thread.

[flurry]

How are you able to evaluate the merits of the complaints if you aren't privy to them, Desertman?

[Desertman]

How are you able to evaluate the merits of the complaints if you aren't privy to them, Desertman?

Adhira posted an example of them.

[valeria]

You can put that your pc was a rapist in the background. You can't play out being a rapist in game, even if it's purely in mindset and not action.

Just to clarify, the bolded part is where I started to feel like the censorship was taking too much of a turn.  I feel that it removing some of the harshness from the game is simply a fact, because the most evil of evil villains are rapists.

However, I feel that this next part clarified it:

- You cannot sit in a tavern and tell the story of your PC being raped.
- If you include rape in your pc's background it should remain as that, background.  You can use it to shape your pc's world view, you cannot use it as a motivation to kill all tall, muscular men because they have reminded you of a terrible situation.

Let me modify this a little. If it's in your background you can use it as internal motivation, ...

What I feel is fine is not having any PC on PC rape or accusations of rape, and I can see that causing too much trouble for staff.  But banning even having your character thinking about being a rapist, or thinking that one of the benefits of going to war with the neighboring City state might be raping/pillaging, or joking at the Gaj about how it might be a good way to spend the day off by going into the 'rinth to rape some nonspecfic vNPC elves, or whatever... that just seemed like too much censorship to me.  I think under the clarification that is not a problem, though, so, I am relieved.

Having played a character that was in background a rapist (while never involving or even telling other PCs or even doing much more than occasionally thinking about it), I can tell you that I would find not even having the option to even think about rape would be too restrictive.

But, that having been clarified, I can understand the new policy.

[Barzalene]

I'm just so very disappointed that our playerbase is now the sorts of people who would send in enough complaints about this sort of thing to even warrant the staff to have to take this sort of action.

I have bragged I don't know how many times to people I have introduced to the game that we have the best, most mature, and intelligent playerbase of any game I have ever played.

I won't be able to do that anymore because we apparently have enough people filing false rape complaints, not getting the proper OOC consent ahead of time, and filing other silly nonsense that the staff is having to do universal blanket rules and thought policing/wide scale RP censoring just to keep us from being morons.

I want to apologize to staff on their behalf. Ten years ago, this wouldn't have happened. The game hasn't changed. Only the players.

And with that, I am done with this thread.

I think you missed out on some of the suspected (to clarify what -I- suspect) asshattery that probably lead up to this. Which is a good thing.

[Eurynomos]

We are not going to publicly post any requests related to rape/rape complaints.

Discussion has taken place on this topic -- It seems most of the playerbase is content and glad to see this blanket ban go into effect. Those that aren't, we're sorry. This decision wasn't made lightly, as Calavera pointed out. There are plenty of games out there that allow you to rape/play rapists/people with rapist mindsets. This will not be one of them.

[Rathustra]

I've re-opened this thread as obviously we need a space for people to work out their frustrations to this change.

I must ask that we keep fear-mongering, 'what-ifs' and hypothetical scenarios to the minimum as there isn't enough staff around during Christmas Eve to address much of these at all. All you'll be doing is creating an echo chamber wherein any lines of discussion will be lost entirely.

I would appreciate everyone also tries to be as courteous as possible to each other. I don't care what a person's opinions are on this change - whether they're for or against - this thread is for both sides to talk it out. But that requires a bit of (gasp) self-censorship and responsibility.

[Rathustra]

Ok actually now the thread is unlocked because I guess I didn't unlock it properly!

[26 dollars]

I watched my brother die of cancer when I was twelve. The doctor gave all the Hispanic patients older treatments cutting their survival rate significantly Death upsets me. Prejudice upsets me. Not trying to say it's the same as being raped but by that logic I want all mention of death, sickness, and discrimination reconned
so I don't feel bad for volunteering to role play in a disgusting world full of all those things.

I don't believe these things are congruent.  Death is inevitable, and to an extent, so is prejudice.  Rape and child molestation are the product of a sick individual.  It doesn't matter how you frame it, they're always sickos, and there's no rational explanation for that behavior.  However, murder and prejudice are often necessary in the gameworld of Zalanthas, and that's why we deem it harsh.

Honestly, though, I find child abuse to be worse than rape, and I don't see anyone rushing to roleplay that shit out.  The difference there?  One is a crime on children, which makes you universally sick, and another is only predicated on females (99% of the time), and therefore only prejudicial in gender.

Are we really losing anything, there?  Not really.  If you've gotta use rape to scare people, you're not that scary.