Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines

[Desertman]

So, I dunno. I'm on the "I don't know what I'm fighting for," argument with D-man here.

Yeah. I'm not fighting for being able to rape pc's. I would actually fight for not being able to rape pc's. I'm not sure why that wasn't removed a long time ago.

Removing references to rape from the game world all together even when pc's aren't involved seems like our own version of book burning for the purpose of removing an idea, and not removing a unsafe situation for the purposes of protecting a player.

Someone used the term "Disneyfication" earlier. Which is a new one for me. But, it seems to fit.

I can't see how eliminating VNPC/NPC references to rape from the game is going to further lighten the staff's workload. How can someone submit a complaint when they aren't even involved in the rape to begin with, because the rape never happened to them, and never included their PC in any way?

That isn't a practical application for the purpose of a defined measurable result. That is a witch hunt/the thought police.

(Unless staff gets a lot of complaints from players who don't want those VNPC's and NPC's to be raping/being raped. If that is the case. Then I'm completely wrong.)

[26 dollars]

If playing a good villain was merely who can be the most "shocking" personality, then we'd have a lineup of weirdo child molesters every time you walk into the Gaj.  Thankfully, it's not.  We don't.

The vast majority of art, literature and media have never included rape, or only use it as an impetus for conflict, while fleshing out greater issues.  There's a reason for that:  most of us just don't need that in our lives.  A rare few might even be psychologically disturbed by it.  The occasional jollies of being a true disgustoid doesn't make an equal case against human suffering, sorry.

I'm glad this has been banned.  I was never directly involved in these plots, but I heard of them on occasion, and I can't say I understood the appeal.  If all we're losing is a character or two pretending to be Alex from A Clockwork Orange--  so be it!

[26 dollars]

To add to the more recent discussion of "why can't we reference rape?"  One has to think that, simply by the odds, there are players of this game who have been raped in RL.  You wouldn't be that douche who walked up to them, and said, "Hey, I heard you got raped!"  I think it would be just as rude to subject them to similar feelings while they're enjoying a game.

[BadSkeelz]

What's staff position on threatening to sell someone to one of the  slaver houses for the purposes of mul creation? While the exact mechanics are something of an IC mystery, nothing I've heard or read about them suggest being made a mul mother is anything pleasant.

[TheWanderer]

I don't think I like the way rape is becoming a forbidden topic IC due to this change. At first, I assumed the act itself was forbidden, then accusations were to be forbidden because of that, but I didn't realize we would have rape become an entirely virtual affair on Zalanthas that doesn't exist around us. You can say it exists in the virtual population, but you'll never be faced with it, and it'll slowly become something that just doesn't come into play for you and others while in this gritty, murderous, corrupt world that we call Zalanthas.
I doubt many players will be willing to push the envelope with threats and such these days. And if you were going be to raped, wasn't Fade to Black an option that took away the gritty details, and just left you with, "You've been raped. Role-play accordingly."

From recent experience I blame us players for doing it then treating it with our Western values. "OMHL he's a rapist, do something!" Mob ensues and hijacks all other role play while filthy witches run free, slaves are maimed and beaten bloody, murderers stack up the pile, and everyone ignores the small children with bloated bellies starving in the blazing sun.

+1
Crime is commonplace, children starve to death in the streets, and rape is a common occurrence, but people have allowed rape to become the single most vile act there is in this game because of RL feelings on the subject. I've never understood, even in RL, how rape is considered so much more vile than that of a child starving to death, torture of another human being, or generalized murder. These are all just as painful, and just as mentally debilitating, in my opinion. We've become so desensitized to these things that murder, torture, and children starving in this game doesn't bother anybody, but rape is crossing the line and that's what makes you cringe.

[Cutthroat]

Disneyfication

"Disneyfication"

Armageddon, the game that allows characters to be thieves, alcoholics, prostitutes, corrupted officials, political schemers, gang members, drug dealers, raiders, torturers, traitors to the government, defilers and murderers is suddenly a Disneyfied game for wusses because it scrubbed rape out of the picture. You'll excuse me if I don't think that even merits a response beyond  .

There's so much to do in this game that is considered "bad". The vast majority of players are creative individuals who can make those activities work for themselves and other people in this game, which still remains true to its tagline. Can we focus more on "murder, corruption, betrayal" and less on cheap shock value to make this a better game overall? I personally think we can.

[26 dollars]

"You've been raped. Role-play accordingly."

I think exactly the problem is that some people do NOT want to roleplay a rape victim.  That is why you've always been able to flat out decline it--  just like torture and dismemberment.  I have to say, though, I read that in your avatar's voice, and I snickered.

The question here, though, has to be:  are we really losing anything?  I mean, c'mon ...

[Desertman]

Disneyfication

"Disneyfication"

Armageddon, the game that allows characters to be thieves, alcoholics, prostitutes, corrupted officials, political schemers, gang members, drug dealers, raiders, torturers, traitors to the government, defilers and murderers is suddenly a Disneyfied game for wusses because it scrubbed rape out of the picture. You'll excuse me if I don't think that even merits a response beyond  .

There's so much to do in this game that is considered "bad". The vast majority of players are creative individuals who can make those activities work for themselves and other people in this game, which still remains true to its tagline. Can we focus more on "murder, corruption, betrayal" and less on cheap shock value to make this a better game overall? I personally think we can.

I've already touched on this idea. So I don't feel a need to respond to it further.

I've said everything I can here. So I will leave the post be.

In five years maybe we will ban torture or references to torture. Because really, we can do better than that. Can't we?

Five years after that we might be able to ban genocide. Because really, we can do better than that. Can't we?

Eventually we can be "better" than that so much, that we will be better in ever regard to western ideas of morality.

So on and so forth.

[i love toilets]

I've never seen a rape in 10+ years and only heard about it maybe three times

I knew about a serial rapist who played out that plotline with at least four people, most likely more, caused quite a stir in a particular pc community with a disproportionate number of victims, I knew about one other who trapped a woman in his apartment with the idea that the other player could either die or live and be raped, and there was this one player who tried stuff on me without consent--- didn't back off after one comment from me that meant stop which I guess they identified as not actually meaning stop, and then I told them to stop again and they backed down. I didn't report them, given the situation I think I should have, and I'm somewhat sure they are now in a leadership role.

Given what I've seen of it, in initial and further backgrounds and being in circles with victims and rapists alike, rape isn't even really a good plot tool. Its a plot tool, sure. But it has never been played as a good one, except in the case of supreme revenge (which can be stirred through several other means), but it still isolates the rapist with every incident, even from the circle which would think of him as on their side. The more I think about it, the more I'm glad that its gone.

Question. Say that a Kuraci family member or whatever says, if anyone takes these rubies out of the house vault, I'm going to cut your heads off, spike them on my spear, and then take an actual spear and plant it outside the Gaj. And say those rubies are still there, or some of them are, as of this writing. Do we pretend they didn't say that? Or do we accept that they said that before, and now don't mean it or mention it anymore?

[Cutthroat]

Disneyfication

"Disneyfication"

Armageddon, the game that allows characters to be thieves, alcoholics, prostitutes, corrupted officials, political schemers, gang members, drug dealers, raiders, torturers, traitors to the government, defilers and murderers is suddenly a Disneyfied game for wusses because it scrubbed rape out of the picture. You'll excuse me if I don't think that even merits a response beyond  .

There's so much to do in this game that is considered "bad". The vast majority of players are creative individuals who can make those activities work for themselves and other people in this game, which still remains true to its tagline. Can we focus more on "murder, corruption, betrayal" and less on cheap shock value to make this a better game overall? I personally think we can.

I've already touched on this idea. So I don't feel a need to respond to it further.

I've said everything I can here. So I will leave the thread be.

In five years maybe we will ban torture or references to torture. Because really, we can do better than that. Can't we?

Five years after that we might be able to ban genocide. Because really, we can do better than that. Can't we?

So on and so forth.

Well, I already said why the slippery slope argument is bullshit. But I can agree to disagree with you on this point.

[Desertman]

Disneyfication

"Disneyfication"

Armageddon, the game that allows characters to be thieves, alcoholics, prostitutes, corrupted officials, political schemers, gang members, drug dealers, raiders, torturers, traitors to the government, defilers and murderers is suddenly a Disneyfied game for wusses because it scrubbed rape out of the picture. You'll excuse me if I don't think that even merits a response beyond  .

There's so much to do in this game that is considered "bad". The vast majority of players are creative individuals who can make those activities work for themselves and other people in this game, which still remains true to its tagline. Can we focus more on "murder, corruption, betrayal" and less on cheap shock value to make this a better game overall? I personally think we can.

I've already touched on this idea. So I don't feel a need to respond to it further.

I've said everything I can here. So I will leave the post be.

In five years maybe we will ban torture or references to torture. Because really, we can do better than that. Can't we?

Five years after that we might be able to ban genocide. Because really, we can do better than that. Can't we?

So on and so forth.

Well, I already said why the slippery slope argument is bullshit. But I can agree to disagree with you on this point.

I'm fine with that.

(Also I appreciate that you can have an objective conversation about this sort of thing without getting bent out of shape. I think this thread is a shining example of our playerbase's ability to have a rational discussion even when potentially inflammatory topics are at hand, so far.)

[williamson]

I guess I'm in the minority. It's kind of sad that the staff has been forced to do this. In twenty years of play, I've never had a PC raped or raped another PC. I can recall being ordered by a PC templar to hold down a criminal that was tortured with some PG sexual tones. I really don't care about rape being banned. My main objection is that it now seems illegal to threaten someone with rape or sexual torture. The libertarian in me is strongly against limitations in speech. When you ban speech, it creates a huge gray area. What if you contact your nemesis and psi "You bastard! I'm gonna fuck you up." That statement could mean different things to different people. Additionally, "sexual torture" is a pretty broad term.

Here are two examples that come to mind that may or may not be illegal now. You be the judge.

1) My PC and another guy kidnap an Allanaki noble. We ask her to give us all her belongings and she refuses. We beat her unconscious, strip her naked, cut off her ear, and leave her alone in the tablelands without any possessions. She survives and returns to Allanak. There was no sexual abuse or mention of it. Is being involuntarily stripped naked sexual abuse?

2) While playing a noble, my annoying aide says he wants to go and work for someone else after giving a life oath to the House. I summon my underlings and we drag him into the elementalist quarter where we involuntarily tattoo him with elementalist tattoos on every possible tattoo location. Afterwords, I tell him he's free to work for whomever he wants and dismiss him from the House. Is being involuntarily tattooed all over your body sexual abuse?

Victim #1 survived and ended up putting bounties on us. Conflict, drama, and fun ensued. Victim #2 stored, perhaps he would have filed a complaint?

Hopefully, this ban will reduce the number of player complaints and staff workload dealing with it. I'd like to remind everyone that the staff don't volunteer to their time to police the game. They do it to have fun like everyone else. Please don't ruin their fun, because like a lot of things, fun-busting runs downhill. If someone is violating the rules, try a friendly OOC or OOC psi reminder. They may be new or forgetting to ask for consent. I'd wager that this simple step could eliminate a lot of staff and player headaches. If this doesn't work AND it's a big deal to you, log the event and send it to the staff. If you find that you're sending in a lot of player and staff complaints (and by a lot I mean more than one every five years), I have some advice. You might want to try some of the other muds out there. Maybe they're more your speed? I hear there is one where you can fight smurfs.

[valeria]

For various reasons already discussed by other players in detail, I'm not really in support of this change.  I feel that it takes away from the harshness of the game world.  However, I can see why staff might not want to put more time and energy into policing something that has, for the reason of the immaturity of a small portion of the player base, turned into a disproportionate problem.

My understanding extends to banning rape plotlines and PC on PC accusations of rape.  I can see how those could create too much drama to be worth it.  But I don't see the reason for extending it to saying that my character can't be virtually prowling dark alleys to virtually victimize vNPCs, or saying that I can't talk about the rape that occurred in my character's background.  To me that's taking it past the point where the benefits to staff justify the censorship to character development.

[BadSkeelz]

I've never seen a rape in 10+ years and only heard about it maybe three times

Given what I've seen of it, in initial and further backgrounds and being in circles with victims and rapists alike, rape isn't even really a good plot tool. Its a plot tool, sure. But it has never been played as a good one, except in the case of supreme revenge (which can be stirred through several other means), but it still isolates the rapist with every incident, even from the circle which would think of him as on their side. The more I think about it, the more I'm glad that its gone.

I can't say that I've ever seen a plotline improved by accusations of rape, much less an actual act. Whenever it came up the same life-disruption, vileness and dread could have been (and indeed, was) conveyed through plenty of other non-sexual behavior. The accusations unfortunately only became an OOC distraction, requiring some staff back-and-forth.

Then again, I remember someone on the board recounting the fate of their hapless Borsail aide, who was turned over to the mul-birthing division (and presumably stored) as a punishment of  their lord after he botched an assassination plot. That's always stuck with me as the most horrifying and Zalanthan ending to a character I've heard of.

[Barzalene]

My understanding extends to banning rape plotlines and PC on PC accusations of rape.  I can see how those could create too much drama to be worth it.  But I don't see the reason for extending it to saying that my character can't be virtually prowling dark alleys to virtually victimize vNPCs, or saying that I can't talk about the rape that occurred in my character's background.  To me that's taking it past the point where the benefits to staff justify the censorship to character development.

Yes, I also wonder why the ban extends go the virtual world. I wonder if there was more going on than we saw that made this nessesary.

[Eurynomos]

I never thought banning rape would be 'Disneyfying' the game.

C'mon guys -- We aren't going to ban you scooping out people's eyeballs, or torturing them in jail cells. The game isn't getting any less 'harsh' by us making rape virtual.

I'll gladly say this as well - If you want to play out rape scenes and be a rapist, or gladly talk about rape and 'need your rape', here is a great website:

www.mudconnector.com

[Desertman]

I never thought banning rape would be 'Disneyfying' the game.

C'mon guys -- We aren't going to ban you scooping out people's eyeballs, or torturing them in jail cells. The game isn't getting any less 'harsh' by us making rape virtual.

I'll gladly say this as well - If you want to play out rape scenes and be a rapist, or gladly talk about rape and 'need your rape', here is a great website:

www.mudconnector.com

The people who said it was "Disneyfying" never said they were against banning rape.

They said they were against banning the idea and concept universally from the game as an atmospheric which had nothing to do with pc on pc rape bans.

I believe all parties on the "Disneyfying" train were actually pro-rape ban.

[boog]

But rape can't be virtual, as I'd read it?

Maybe it's just my speed reading of what's been added as policy, though. Kids, illness, and all.

[Yummri]

I've played other games where rape has been outright banned. You could not play the victim, you could not play the rapist and accusing others of it would get you banned. And they advertised brutality, murder and corruption and the game was extremely harsh.

Do I think it should become taboo to mention it? No, but accusing others and taking part in it most definitely.

The world as a whole has become desensitised to things like murder, torture, theft simply because of media and other conditioning. Rape is much more personal. A theft isn't violent usually. Once dead the victim of a murder feels no pain and video games, books and other such things have featured it for years. It is the same with torture. Since the medieval times and before torture has been a part of culture and a way to extract information then glorified in films like SAW.

These things can make the game harsh and have their place in the game world. I don't see rape as having its place beyond background noise. Should you as players pretend you are suddenly safe? hell no because it is possible, you just don't hear of it happening. Maybe the Templars have a way of knowing and silencing the talk. its bad for staff, its bad for players. There are plenty of other ways to be a villain without sinking to this level. Be the guy/girl who murders not the person you hate, but instead destroys everything they cherish till it breaks them. Anything is better than rape.

I fully agree with Cutthroat. This is now slippery slope. There will not be future plot bannings for murder and torture. In 3 months I've seen and heard of this a good few times. That is more than I ever wanted to have to deal with it. Does that make me over-sensitive or a wus? No it doesn't. I rather enjoy graphic violence. The more detail the better. But its a game and that is vile even in game.

Could staff clear up my original question. If not in this thread than in a PM please? Thank you.

[i love toilets]

Then again, I remember someone on the board recounting the fate of their hapless Borsail aide, who was turned over to the mul-birthing division (and presumably stored) as a punishment of  their lord after he botched an assassination plot. That's always stuck with me as the most horrifying and Zalanthan ending to a character I've heard of.

Holy crap, that's right.

What are we going to say about mul birthing?

[Desertman]

Then again, I remember someone on the board recounting the fate of their hapless Borsail aide, who was turned over to the mul-birthing division (and presumably stored) as a punishment of  their lord after he botched an assassination plot. That's always stuck with me as the most horrifying and Zalanthan ending to a character I've heard of.

Holy crap, that's right.

What are we going to say about mul birthing?

You won't say anything about it. Ever.

Unless we are going to put in some "acceptable sex that leads to death but isn't rape" disclaimers.

Which is so Twilight Zone as to be comical.

[Eurynomos]

But rape can't be virtual, as I'd read it?

Maybe it's just my speed reading of what's been added as policy, though. Kids, illness, and all.

You cannot use rape as a plot device.

The topics Williamson mentioned above (#1 and #2) are not rape.

If you are are selling someone off to Slavery, they are going to be stored (Akin to killing them, in that their life as a PC is ending and becoming virtual). As they are entering the virtual world, whatever happens behind the scenes happens behind the scenes. Threatening someone with sending them to the mul-birthing program is vague enough that I think it's fine (It's slavery too after all).

[Desertman]

My assumption is that pleasure slaves are no longer a thing.

I would also assume that all references to rinth prostitution must now be wholesome and on the level with all parties enjoying the interaction and the correct payment always being administered regardless.

I would also assume all parties have to be sober.

[Eurynomos]

Not paying for sex /= rape. Pleasure slaves /= rape. I think you guys can figure out what is actually rape, and what is not rape. If you have a question of 'what is rape' when you are in a situation in game, you can wish up and ask for clarification.

[Cutthroat]

I think you are still allowed to discuss your background IG even if it contains themes of rape in it. It looks like what is specifically being banned is:

- The act of rape (which previously required consent for both the RP and the actual plotline having taken place)
- Accusing other people of rape (which was previously allowed)

That's it. As such, the concept of rape as a plot device (specifically to target other v/N/PCs with rape or the accusation of rape) is gone. Rape still exists in the virtual world. It exists in backgrounds, to say that one of your PC's parents raped the other, to say that your PC was a rapist in the past or that your PC was raped in the past. But that background information can't then be used to create a plot, e.g. by putting in your background that a templar raped you and now your dwarf focus is to kill all templars.

Discussing a background with themes of rape is still okay, so long as you don't use your background to start a plot related to rape.

At least that is how I understand everything said by staff so far. Correct me if I am wrong.