Revamping the Way

[Lizzie]

We do need me in this salad because this affects me the same as it affects everybody else. I don't want the Way changed. It's good the way it is. It has enough mystery to be nice and effective, when someone jumps into my mind and promptly jumps out.

I can't tell if you are trolling, or if you really enjoy people using the Way to sniff your online status and your sdesc.

You seem like a strange enough/unique enough dude to maybe actually like that.

In that case, I will agree to disagree with you.

In -most- cases, I have no idea, or way of knowing, if someone is jumping in and out of my mind as an attempt to sniff my status and/or sdesc. Once in awhile, it'll be pretty obvious - like if I walk into a room with my hood up, and everyone looks at me and I get 3 people contacting me. Well yeah - they want to know who the hooded figure is. And it's also a reminder to me that I'm inside a building with my hood up and probably should take it down, unless I'm really -trying- to stand out like a sore thumb. In which case, it serves me right if everyone and their brother is sdesc-sniffing my head.

Once in awhile, there will be new introductions made to people I meet, who don't normally speak the same language my character speaks. I'll occasionally get a very immediate contact/break, and assume it's someone verifying that they heard my name correctly, and that "Amosa" isn't really "Adofa." I'm okay with that too.

I think that anything more than what we can already do as mundanes, might be in the realm of "things someone else might be able to do, but it's one of those topics that don't belong on the GDB."

[HavokBlue]

Trust me, Amos has more friends than you know about. They just don't show themselves publically ever.

What?

[Seeker]

The blue-eyed man contacts your mind.

This is all I want.

This is all I want in the world.

It would solve every problem with The Way I have ever encountered.

Or make it so that when you contact someone's mind with the Way, you don't get a sdesc until you actually send a message to them and reveal your own.

>contact tall.hooded.
You contact their mind.

psi You trying to be sneaky?

You send a telepathic message to the tall, buxom hooded-eye woman:
   "You trying to be sneaky?"

[Desertman]

The blue-eyed man contacts your mind.

This is all I want.

This is all I want in the world.

It would solve every problem with The Way I have ever encountered.

Or make it so that when you contact someone's mind with the Way, you don't get a sdesc until you actually send a message to them and reveal your own.

>contact tall.hooded.
You contact their mind.

psi You trying to be sneaky?

You send a telepathic message to the tall, buxom hooded-eye woman:
   "You trying to be sneaky?"

I suggested this once, but then someone pointed out....What if there are two Amos' in the world and I actually already know one and I'm a good friend of theirs...but I happen to contact the "wrong" Amos...it would just get confusing because I can't see their sdesc.

This is why I would rather just have both parties see sdescs.

[Jherlen]

Perhaps we're all too concerned over the problem of sdesc sniffing to begin with. Maybe, in the world of Zalanthas where psionic contact is possible and an every day occurrence, people wouldn't be as inclined to think a simple cloak and/or facewrap is all the protection they need to hide their face. If contacting someone gives you a mental image of them anyway in your head, the natural defense to hiding your identity would be the barrier skill to hide from someone's mind just like you use clothing to hide from their eyes.

I still do like the recall idea and being able to send Way messages to someone offline, though. It just seems to improve in game communication opportunities, and also help make the game world feel more real. Being offline is a purely OOC construct that has IC consequences, but if you could recieve Way messages while offline, at least other PCs could still feel like they could reach you ICly.

[Seeker]

The blue-eyed man contacts your mind.

This is all I want.

This is all I want in the world.

It would solve every problem with The Way I have ever encountered.

Or make it so that when you contact someone's mind with the Way, you don't get a sdesc until you actually send a message to them and reveal your own.

>contact tall.hooded.
You contact their mind.

psi You trying to be sneaky?

You send a telepathic message to the tall, buxom hooded-eye woman:
   "You trying to be sneaky?"

I suggested this once, but then someone pointed out....What if there are two Amos' in the world and I actually already know one and I'm a good friend of theirs...but I happen to contact the "wrong" Amos...it would just get confusing because I can't see their sdesc.

This is why I would rather just have both parties see sdescs.

Only confusing until you send them a message and see its not the one you wanted.  Then you cease and contact 2.Amos.  The extra cost in stun seems a very cheap price to pay for the solutions it provides.

Why I prefer this option to both parties seeing sdesc instantly on contact is that it allows the "contactee" to put up his barrier in defense after being contacted if she wishes and is paying attention.

>Contact tall.hooded
You contact their mind

Psi You trying to be all sneaky?
Your telepathic message is blocked.

[Delirium]

I like Seeker's solution quite a lot.

[ShaLeah]

I'd prefer if you could ONLY reach someone over the Way through sdesc or name.

[Desertman]

I remembered having this discussion before...more than once...but in one discussion this always stood out to me.

It is glorious, and I wonder what is happening on this front:

For the record, we are talking about making true-names not be contactable either.  Just their current keywords based on their sdesc alone.  Name, any extra keywords you may have added will not work.

Honestly the idea that true-names somehow hold more power is something staff have tried to downplay and are poised to outright say they don't matter.  If we go ahead with this change, the name of your character will be a convenience for you and staff for determining what to call the character.  To all other players, it won't matter unless they do 'addkeyword <person> <keyword>'

You would basically have to meet people and see them with your own eyes and actually "know" them before you could contact them. You would have to know their sdesc from meeting them to find their mind. No more random mind finding of people you have never met just because you heard their name in a bar.

I can't imagine a better system.

[James de Monet]

I've never had a problem with the name thing, but then, I don't know if I've very played a character that has been burned by it. It is important for merchants and leader types to be contactable by people they haven't met, though.

I guess I just always imagined the Way as reaching out for someone's extrapersonal identity. Either you are reaching for a mind that feels (sees itself) as the tall, muscular man, or you are reaching out for a mind that identifies itself as "Amos". It can't help identifying itself that way any more than it can change how it feels. All it can do is try to hide from other minds (barrier).

Sdesc sniffing is less of a problem than it used to be, now that we have same-room restrictions on hoods. I honestly think the key here should be less legislation and more community. If someone is wearing a hood, but isn't doing anything against your character, just let them have their anonymity. Does your char go down the street contacting every hooded vNPC? There are lots of them. It's a desert. Sure, knowledge is power, and knowing people who want to hide who they are could benefit your PC, but so could hunting down every creature in the whole game for hides. You don't do that, why get twinky with knowledge if you don't get twinky with money? Let the game have some mystery. Have more fun.

[BuNutzCola]

The only issue I had with the Way, and it only involves remarkably long lived/well trained characters, is that the process of expelling and then barriering is so prohibitively costly it might as well not be done, unless the one you're pushing out is only a novice. Otherwise you're spending upwards of 50+ stun, only to be recontacted if that's their intent. Also there are numerous ways this can be made completely unviable, and not speaking of mindbenders/magick. (If you'd like a request sent in detailing what I mean here, happy to do so.)

[James de Monet]

Also, this suggestion is totally not worth valuable coding time, but I think it would be kinda fun if you could set a description for how your contacts and barrier breaks feel (in my mind these would be semi-permanent settings that fit the mind of the character, as most non-benders wouldn't have the fine control to change how their mind felt, just like they can't control how it looks externally):

Code Select Expand

A foreign presence contacts your mind, alighting delicately.

Code Select Expand

A foreign presence contacts your mind.
Your barrier is crushed, as a needle-like touch slips through!

-or-

Code Select Expand

A foreign presence contacts your mind.
Your barrier is crushed, as an unyielding touch hammers in!

Would people use it to powergame? Yup. But I think it would give more character to the Way, and make for more interesting psionic nuance. And if you make your PC's touch like a thundering mek or something, you are going to get an earful if you ever punch a more socially important character's barrier, if they don't outright accuse you of bending, given the powerful feel of your mind.

[Quirk]

I remembered having this discussion before...more than once...but in one discussion this always stood out to me.

It is glorious, and I wonder what is happening on this front:

For the record, we are talking about making true-names not be contactable either.  Just their current keywords based on their sdesc alone.  Name, any extra keywords you may have added will not work.

Honestly the idea that true-names somehow hold more power is something staff have tried to downplay and are poised to outright say they don't matter.  If we go ahead with this change, the name of your character will be a convenience for you and staff for determining what to call the character.  To all other players, it won't matter unless they do 'addkeyword <person> <keyword>'

You would basically have to meet people and see them with your own eyes and actually "know" them before you could contact them. You would have to know their sdesc from meeting them to find their mind. No more random mind finding of people you have never met just because you heard their name in a bar.

I can't imagine a better system.

Well, this would work but for the folk who tell you in all seriousness that you'll know Amos because he's tall and muscular.

I'd much prefer you to be only able to contact people you'd actually met. Heck, having a short list of those you've met which you add to with "remember <pc-descriptor>" which adds their identity until you've tried to remember too many people and they drop back off the end would be about perfect for me. It wouldn't necessarily solve the problems of the victim waying for help, unfortunately, but it would kill speculative waying stone dead.

In terms of IC justification, I find it really hard to envisage being able to find the mind of Amos the grebber among a half-million other minds in the city just because someone at the bar repeated some daft rumour about him wanting to sell diamonds/meet a Kadian/join the Byn. I'll admit it's an aid to putting the very newest players in touch with clans, but I think the damage it does to the perceived scale of the game world is serious (here I'm borrowing and repurposing a thought of Delirium's from another thread) - serious enough to outweigh the advantages. It brings us back to the notion that PCs and their True Names are real, and everything else is less so. The whole notion of sdesc sniffing rises out of this powergaming of scale, as knowing that there's an outlaw called Amos who someone's just declared a bounty on is enough to let you find his awake mind despite the hundreds of virtual Amoses with varying relationships to the law.

[Lizzie]

I like the Way how it is. It's not perfect, but any divergence from how it is now, is going to be an improvement for somethings, while making it worse for others.

As someone who rarely learns to master barrier, let alone branching expel, I don't give a flying fart about people who can break my barrier. Most people can break my barrier, and making it harder to use contact, isn't going to make it harder to break -mine- because mine is rarely that great to begin with. That won't affect me at all.

But I can tell you that as someone who has tried to get in touch with her own clan boss - whose barrier was rock-solid - making it HARDER to do that, can make or break a character's existence. Perhaps it's just that my character's wisdom was lower than theirs, and therefore, my contact even at master wasn't going to break through their master barrier until the 5th try.

I don't know what the criteria is. Maybe they have mindbender skills like "clan-shield" that prevents anyone in the clan from getting through. Or "Lizzie-wall" that prevents ME from getting through. But they could be in the same room as me, and I still wouldn't be able to get through. Making it harder, is just going to make it harder. It won't make it more fun, or more useful, or more playable, or more believeable, or more realistic. It'll just make it harder.

As for the whole hooded figure thing - I don't agree with limiting it more. If I meet the masked man, and we're having a grand conversation, and I can see his full mdesc, and everything he's wearing, and he tells me the story of his life, and his real name, and his nickname and why he has it - why in hell should I _not_ be able to find his mind, just because I don't see his sdesc? Half the PCs (or more) in Red Storm are hooded figures. But they hang out at the bar, talk to each other, maybe even stand outside the apartment hallway chit-chatting before they go to their respective apartments. They might know each other by nickname, they might know that they're both rogue mages, they might know all kinds of things about each other - but just haven't ever seen each other with their hoods down. There's no reason why they -shouldn't- be able to contact each other over the way, by name, if their barrier is down and they have decent enough contact skill.

So that's why I like it just the way it is.

[Ourla]

We do need me in this salad because this affects me the same as it affects everybody else. I don't want the Way changed. It's good the way it is. It has enough mystery to be nice and effective, when someone jumps into my mind and promptly jumps out.

I agree.  The delay idea, with respect, seems pretty useless.  The Way is difficult enough to use as it is, and with the vast majority of PCs unable to read to write -- and therefore communicate long distance -- I feel like it would hurt RP to go without it.  Please keep things the way they are.

[Yummri]

Could an admin read over my post from somewhere in this thread and go other a few things in it so I understand their perspective please? Thank You!

[solera]

You all seem to be a bit paranoid. I always have a handful of NPCs and occasionally PCs that I sniff daily because they have the same name/nickname as my friends.   I know when I get briefly sniffed, it's likely to be  because I share a keyword with a more desirable PC with a more unpronounceable name.
Do you they really sniff from impure motives?

[Drayab]

But I can tell you that as someone who has tried to get in touch with her own clan boss - whose barrier was rock-solid - making it HARDER to do that, can make or break a character's existence. Perhaps it's just that my character's wisdom was lower than theirs, and therefore, my contact even at master wasn't going to break through their master barrier until the 5th try.

I find it telling that rock-solid is synonymous with 'only takes five tries to bust it down.'

[James de Monet]

You all seem to be a bit paranoid. I always have a handful of NPCs and occasionally PCs that I sniff daily because they have the same name/nickname as my friends.   I know when I get briefly sniffed, it's likely to be  because I share a keyword with a more desirable PC with a more unpronounceable name.
Do you they really sniff from impure motives?

It's not paranoia if everyone really is out to get you.

[Patuk]

I like the Way how it is. It's not perfect, but any divergence from how it is now, is going to be an improvement for somethings, while making it worse for others.

As someone who rarely learns to master barrier, let alone branching expel, I don't give a flying fart about people who can break my barrier. Most people can break my barrier, and making it harder to use contact, isn't going to make it harder to break -mine- because mine is rarely that great to begin with. That won't affect me at all.

But I can tell you that as someone who has tried to get in touch with her own clan boss - whose barrier was rock-solid - making it HARDER to do that, can make or break a character's existence. Perhaps it's just that my character's wisdom was lower than theirs, and therefore, my contact even at master wasn't going to break through their master barrier until the 5th try.

I don't know what the criteria is. Maybe they have mindbender skills like "clan-shield" that prevents anyone in the clan from getting through. Or "Lizzie-wall" that prevents ME from getting through. But they could be in the same room as me, and I still wouldn't be able to get through. Making it harder, is just going to make it harder. It won't make it more fun, or more useful, or more playable, or more believeable, or more realistic. It'll just make it harder.

As for the whole hooded figure thing - I don't agree with limiting it more. If I meet the masked man, and we're having a grand conversation, and I can see his full mdesc, and everything he's wearing, and he tells me the story of his life, and his real name, and his nickname and why he has it - why in hell should I _not_ be able to find his mind, just because I don't see his sdesc? Half the PCs (or more) in Red Storm are hooded figures. But they hang out at the bar, talk to each other, maybe even stand outside the apartment hallway chit-chatting before they go to their respective apartments. They might know each other by nickname, they might know that they're both rogue mages, they might know all kinds of things about each other - but just haven't ever seen each other with their hoods down. There's no reason why they -shouldn't- be able to contact each other over the way, by name, if their barrier is down and they have decent enough contact skill.

So that's why I like it just the way it is.

If your clan boss had his barrier up, you'd better have some awfully important business to mention to him to feel entitled to break it down.

That said, when someone has his barrier up, it's their way of going 'I don't want to be talked to right now.' Let's compare it to Zalanthas' equivalent of turning off your phone. The difference here is that me turning off my phone will mean that I won't get any calls, whereas the five tries you consider so taxing still mean your boss can't remain inconspicuous if he wishes to be so.

[Lizzie]

If your clan boss had his barrier up, you'd better have some awfully important business to mention to him to feel entitled to break it down.

That said, when someone has his barrier up, it's their way of going 'I don't want to be talked to right now.' Let's compare it to Zalanthas' equivalent of turning off your phone. The difference here is that me turning off my phone will mean that I won't get any calls, whereas the five tries you consider so taxing still mean your boss can't remain inconspicuous if he wishes to be so.

Well yes - it would be important. That's why I would try more than once or twice. Something like..

psi Faithful Lady Blissful and six soldiers're on the way to the compound, and she looks seriously pissed. RUN!

or

psi Supersenior Agent Drudge-di wants you to meet her in her office immediately, she's waiting right now.

or

psi Lord Borsail, I got y'pregnant wife. Good lookin she-tok, too. Innerested in terms for her release or should I just gobble her and yer unborn kid up right now?

or

psi Hey Agent Salarr, that guy at the table yer interviewin for a job. He's a spy fer that independent crew that runs outta Red Storm.

[Harmless]

Just a thought, but if you got a message every time your barrier succeeded in blocking a contact attempt... and if you could somehow know WHO it was that tried to contact you, you could then let down your barrier for them to send a brief message.

Caller ID?

[Twilight]

Two threads on the same topic.  Mmm.

Make it so you penetrate barrier with a contact, not bring it down.  A chance when you penetrate to give your sdesc to the person you are contacting.  Contact and psi messages through a penetrated barrier to not give the sdesc of the person you contacted (you can still talk to them, just can't see their sdesc).  A way, perhaps using expel, to bring down the barrier of someone whose barrier you have penetrated.

[MeTekillot]

I think you should be able to psi-listen to let you overhear Way conversations that are being heard near you in the same room. I don't like how the Way is 100% discreet to everyone but participants and mindbenders.

And having this on should be apparent to any person's messages you intend to intercept. Higher contact means there's a better chance of you getting caught.

[palomar]

Personally, I'd prefer if the Way stays the same. Yes, it can be annoying with contact/cease, or people who contact and then forget about it. Yes, barrier sometimes seems too weak (especially since the change 6-7 years ago or so). I still think the Way shouldn't be changed, and I'd like to keep psionic abilities to the absolutely simplest forms when it comes to mundanes/non-psions. I don't have any arguments for it except that it's a matter of flavor and preference.