Revamping the Way

[Harmless]

This thread is to carry on discussion from New Players about the Way. I make this topic mainly because I want to add my two suggestions.


1. a star-69 feature, where if someone contacts you, you can type >contact alone and try to contact them right back and send them a little message like, "What are you doing in my mind?" Doorbell ditching could still be possible, but you now have a huge risk of being busted and uncovered.

2. Delaying contact attempts before success. You start to contact someone, and you only succeed to make the connection 5-10 seconds or so later. Maybe this duration could be affected by their barrier and made longer. You only know if the attempt is successful or not after a delay, and while trying to contact someone (say, with a barrier), you get a chance at having those "You suffer from use of the Way" messages and take additional stun loss for contacting a difficult to contact person. When contacting someone in the same room with a hood, that attempt to "pierce the hood" is slowed and made more fair. It discourages the use of triggers.

In the interim of contact delay time, maybe >expel can reduce success. Maybe putting up a >barrier while you BEGIN to feel someone contacting you can allow you to prevent success or delay it further. Maybe you can >contact back, even before their connection is completed.

It all borders on cyberpunk hacking stuff, but hey, to be honest, that's fucking awesome in my book. And I always liked thinking about the similarities of the Way and hacking... so, I would think some of this could be discussed.

[Nyr]

If the Way for nonmundanes is the equivalent of global personal wireless communication, then cyberpunk hacking is for mindbenders.

So #1 is probably right out.

#2 seems a little bit confusing.  So contact is no longer an instant attempt, but something you start, something that takes a while to be attempted, and something that can be interrupted.  What does this add to the game, though?  If you're in the same room with someone with a hood and you can see them, why add an extra layer of difficulty to contact them?  They've already screwed up by being in the same room as you if they wish to be anonymous.

You can also already put up a barrier when you feel someone contact you.  Or expel them.

[evilcabbage]

Yes, you can actually barrier when contacted, and it will give the same message as if they were passed out when you attempt to send them a message. It's very nice. Preventative measures to avoid annoyance !

[Harmless]

Star-69 like powers for mindbenders only makes sense, it certainly seems like an advanced technique.

As for the delay, my thinking was that it makes the Way "weaker" or shittier for non-mindbenders, it creates a potential defense against sdesc sniffing, and online-status sniffing as well, if the contacter has no way of telling if his delayed contact attempts are failing every time because their target is offline or if the target is just using this new delay as a means to repeatedly counter every contact attempt. Adding a delay also adds another way for wisdom and higher contact skill to make a difference in the efficiency of using the Way, potentially. It may also add another means for making long-distance connections more difficult; the delay could be increased if the target is in a different area of the Known world as you.

Again, putting up a barrier after contacted is nice... but the person still knows that A.) you're online and B.) your sdesc.

Because I don't want this thread to only have my ideas, I'll also attempt to paste other people's ideas from the other thread.

I think PCs should be able to recieve Way messages when they're offline (unless you log out with a barrier up, maybe.) When you log in again, you could use a "recall" command to see the messages people sent you while you were logged out. I think this elegantly solves the "We can kill Talia in secret without her being able to tell her friends because they're offline!" problem, cos she still will be able to get a message through. It also eliminates the potential for being able to know someone is on/offline via the Way, cos they'll always be contactable.

I wish Staff could come up with some awesome IC reason why the Way would stop functioning for most for a certain period of time, like a month or two, just to see what the game could be WITHOUT.. If everyone loves the new way-less game, then keep it that way, if everyone hates it, then just terminate the IC reason with another IC reason..

Perhaps when you contact someone, they get a message 'you feel -sdesc- trying to make contact with your mind'. You can only send/receive messages when -both- sides contact each other.

This would make Barrier almost useless, however.

(versus just buffing Barrier)

I think even master level contact should have a bit higher of a failure rating against master level barrier. Seriously, can shatter those barriers way too easy, for a rather insignificant cost compared to the cost of the barrier. Considering the amount of time that can be invested practicing with the initial stunpoint cost, well, it's quite a time sink, well, maybe if you usually end up with poor wisdom like I do.

Also, I would like it if expel were to able to be practiced without having to kick someone from your mind, just maybe not as quickly. I must admit, I've never gotten expel to be high enough to be usable. Too much training in ruf circle, boxing, sparring, wrestling, not enough in kicking that gicker or mindworm out of your skull, if it's even possible with the latter which I wouldn't know because ow, my brain. Maybe just making it so you start with expel would be interesting.

[QuillDipper]

I like the recall idea, not only to prevent the whole offline-checking thing, but also because it makes transmitting messages to off-peak players a lot easier.

[Patuk]

I think giving people apprentice barrier to go along with apprentice contact might go a long ways to fix some of the largest slights, too. Training barrier both involves ridiculous amounts of stun going to waste and an immensely long amount of time, now.

[evilcabbage]

Contact used to start at novice just like barrier, and people complained about it knocking folks out too often. I never really saw the issue with it, myself. As you become more skilled, it will become easier. Just train it. It doesn't take -that- long.

[Nyr]

It seems like a way to get around the fact that if you don't want to be bothered by other PCs or NPCs, you have to have barrier up already and win the various code contests involved.  With your suggestion, the code contest is delayed, granting an advantage to someone that doesn't want to be arsed to keep their barrier up in advance (changing barrier from an active ability to one you can simply trigger when you get contacted).  Introducing a delay discourages the use of triggers on the contact-er's end and encourages them on the contact-ee's end.  I see no real benefit here that isn't just an excuse to nerf contact.  If some is engaged in sdesc sniffing abuse, they can be reported properly and we can handle that.  We already coded it so you have to be in the same room as someone in order to contact them by their hooded/masked/temporary short description keywords, and at this time we think that's a pretty good tradeoff.

I think PCs should be able to recieve Way messages when they're offline (unless you log out with a barrier up, maybe.) When you log in again, you could use a "recall" command to see the messages people sent you while you were logged out. I think this elegantly solves the "We can kill Talia in secret without her being able to tell her friends because they're offline!" problem, cos she still will be able to get a message through. It also eliminates the potential for being able to know someone is on/offline via the Way, cos they'll always be contactable.

If the "Talia can't tell her friends because they're offline" problem is truly a problem then we can look at it.  I don't really agree that it is.  As for being able to know someone is on/offline via the Way, if they successfully barrier, they look the same as if they're offline. 

I wish Staff could come up with some awesome IC reason why the Way would stop functioning for most for a certain period of time, like a month or two, just to see what the game could be WITHOUT.. If everyone loves the new way-less game, then keep it that way, if everyone hates it, then just terminate the IC reason with another IC reason..

We probably could.  Since this is a plot-based idea thing I don't know how we would ever say we're going to do it.

Perhaps when you contact someone, they get a message 'you feel -sdesc- trying to make contact with your mind'. You can only send/receive messages when -both- sides contact each other.

This would make Barrier almost useless, however.

(versus just buffing Barrier)

That seems needlessly complicated, not sure what it is meant to solve.

I think even master level contact should have a bit higher of a failure rating against master level barrier. Seriously, can shatter those barriers way too easy, for a rather insignificant cost compared to the cost of the barrier. Considering the amount of time that can be invested practicing with the initial stunpoint cost, well, it's quite a time sink, well, maybe if you usually end up with poor wisdom like I do.

Also, I would like it if expel were to able to be practiced without having to kick someone from your mind, just maybe not as quickly. I must admit, I've never gotten expel to be high enough to be usable. Too much training in ruf circle, boxing, sparring, wrestling, not enough in kicking that gicker or mindworm out of your skull, if it's even possible with the latter which I wouldn't know because ow, my brain. Maybe just making it so you start with expel would be interesting.

The first part is anecdotal and a bit wrong.  I really doubt we would ever make it so that expel can be practiced without expelling someone.  If expel isn't high enough to be usable that seems like an issue that can be resolved in-game.

[evilcabbage]

An issue that can be resolved at the expense of other people, which if your character is so inclined, can be quite a bit of fun.

[Harmless]

It seems like a way to get around the fact that if you don't want to be bothered by other PCs or NPCs, you have to have barrier up already and win the various code contests involved.  With your suggestion, the code contest is delayed, granting an advantage to someone that doesn't want to be arsed to keep their barrier up in advance (changing barrier from an active ability to one you can simply trigger when you get contacted).  Introducing a delay discourages the use of triggers on the contact-er's end and encourages them on the contact-ee's end.  I see no real benefit here that isn't just an excuse to nerf contact.  If some is engaged in sdesc sniffing abuse, they can be reported properly and we can handle that.  We already coded it so you have to be in the same room as someone in order to contact them by their hooded/masked/temporary short description keywords, and at this time we think that's a pretty good tradeoff.

Hm. Well analyzed, I can't really see anything to dispute in here. Thanks for the quick reply Nyr.

[Narf]

I think giving people apprentice barrier to go along with apprentice contact might go a long ways to fix some of the largest slights, too. Training barrier both involves ridiculous amounts of stun going to waste and an immensely long amount of time, now.

Mileage will vary. Barrier's been the first or second skill I've mastered on my last two characters.

I imagine they set it to go up slowly because you can train it at almost anytime you feel the urge. Most skills you can only practice in certain situations.

[Drayab]

Just make barrier harder to get through.

[Cutthroat]

I kinda like the idea of delaying Way messages instead of the message being delivered instantaneously. Make the delay a function of the room distance between the sender and recipient. Longer distance = more delay. It would encourage more face-to-face meetings (or for those able to write, more written correspondences) and make it more dangerous to be further from civilization. It's not a must-have feature but I think it would be a more interesting system than the one that exists now.

[evilcabbage]

I kinda like the idea of delaying Way messages instead of the message being delivered instantaneously. Make the delay a function of the room distance between the sender and recipient. Longer distance = more delay. It would encourage more face-to-face meetings (or for those able to write, more written correspondences) and make it more dangerous to be further from civilization. It's not a must-have feature but I think it would be a more interesting system than the one that exists now.

No, because a wise person would use that to judge the distance and figure out where a person was. Hell no. It's like a sonar message.

[Cutthroat]

You'd never see how long it takes to get the message through, just that you sent it. (This is true even with how things are worded right now: You're told you sent the message, not that they received it.) And the only thing you can use to judge distance is how long it takes for the recipient to reply, which they can easily delay if they are trying to pretend they are far away but are actually close by. And if they want to pretend they're close by when they're actually far away, there are ways of doing that too. Not seeing the problem here.

[Refugee]

There seems to be some inequity.  I think probably because people can just spam contact until they break through.  Once your contact skill is high it doesn't cost you much in stun.

I've a question about the definition of 'sdesc sniffing'.  I've seen many times people have a name and use the way to get a description (usually of someone who is being hunted for some reason).  I thought this was 'sdesc sniffing' and have avoided doing it, but I do see it done often and openly enough to wonder if it's permitted.  This seems like a good time to ask!

[Desertman]

The blue-eyed man contacts your mind.

This is all I want.

This is all I want in the world.

It would solve every problem with The Way I have ever encountered.

[evilcabbage]

I like the mystery.

[Desertman]

I like the mystery.

Cabbage, go be a leafy vegetable somewhere else. We do not need you in this salad.

[evilcabbage]

We do need me in this salad because this affects me the same as it affects everybody else. I don't want the Way changed. It's good the way it is. It has enough mystery to be nice and effective, when someone jumps into my mind and promptly jumps out.

[Desertman]

We do need me in this salad because this affects me the same as it affects everybody else. I don't want the Way changed. It's good the way it is. It has enough mystery to be nice and effective, when someone jumps into my mind and promptly jumps out.

I can't tell if you are trolling, or if you really enjoy people using the Way to sniff your online status and your sdesc.

You seem like a strange enough/unique enough dude to maybe actually like that.

In that case, I will agree to disagree with you.

[BleakOne]

Perhaps when you contact someone, they get a message 'you feel -sdesc- trying to make contact with your mind'. You can only send/receive messages when -both- sides contact each other.

This would make Barrier almost useless, however.

(versus just buffing Barrier)

That seems needlessly complicated, not sure what it is meant to solve.

Yeah, that was my idea, and it was just a random idea out of the blue.

[evilcabbage]

We do need me in this salad because this affects me the same as it affects everybody else. I don't want the Way changed. It's good the way it is. It has enough mystery to be nice and effective, when someone jumps into my mind and promptly jumps out.

I can't tell if you are trolling, or if you really enjoy people using the Way to sniff your online status and your sdesc.

You seem like a strange enough/unique enough dude to maybe actually like that.

In that case, I will agree to disagree with you.

I enjoy it because it seems like they're sniffing me out just to see if I'm online, but I kind of hate it too. What I REALLY love is when people contact, then cease, then contact again and go "Are you blah blah blah?" and then I can go "No, who the hell is this?"

[Yummri]

Yeah I'm confused about sdesc sniffing too. how is it an abuse to contact a hooded figre to try and figure out who it was. But not get a name and use that to find their sdesc out.

Then to use that to track their online time and that of any of their friends/allies to avoid the risk of actively hunting them regardless. Its seems to me a really cheap way to go about things that takes away a lot of the risk involved.

So now you and your friends now Amos is online because you just wayed him and continuing to do so allows you to track a playtime. After doing that you could do that to any of the people you know Amos is friends with and do the same to decide the best time to attack him with your cluster of friend when he can't be helped.

But at no time does Amos know who is the one tracking him because he can't return the contact and doesn't know who just did that to begin with.
It seems to me a new player an entirely counter productive exercise for a game that is supposed to be harsh and risky for all players who want to play. If you are hunting a character, be prepared to do that when their friends and others may catch you doing it or don't.

I think allowing a person being contacted to see who is doing the contacting is a very good idea. Simply because it allows you to know who is doing it for the purpose of reporting them for sdesc sniffing. Because how can you report someone if you don't know who is doing it to begin with.

Some clarification on sdesc sniffing is needed and if the above does not count as such then I think it needs to be rethought. Because this action is taking away a lot more than it is adding.

The way in general seems fine to me. Apart fromt he above I've not had chance to play with much more than just simply contacting people. But I can see how the way would make it really difficult for spies etc. How do you listen into a convocation if all the plotting can be done in the minds of the conspirators?

[evilcabbage]

Trust me, Amos has more friends than you know about. They just don't show themselves publically ever.

[Lizzie]

We do need me in this salad because this affects me the same as it affects everybody else. I don't want the Way changed. It's good the way it is. It has enough mystery to be nice and effective, when someone jumps into my mind and promptly jumps out.

I can't tell if you are trolling, or if you really enjoy people using the Way to sniff your online status and your sdesc.

You seem like a strange enough/unique enough dude to maybe actually like that.

In that case, I will agree to disagree with you.

In -most- cases, I have no idea, or way of knowing, if someone is jumping in and out of my mind as an attempt to sniff my status and/or sdesc. Once in awhile, it'll be pretty obvious - like if I walk into a room with my hood up, and everyone looks at me and I get 3 people contacting me. Well yeah - they want to know who the hooded figure is. And it's also a reminder to me that I'm inside a building with my hood up and probably should take it down, unless I'm really -trying- to stand out like a sore thumb. In which case, it serves me right if everyone and their brother is sdesc-sniffing my head.

Once in awhile, there will be new introductions made to people I meet, who don't normally speak the same language my character speaks. I'll occasionally get a very immediate contact/break, and assume it's someone verifying that they heard my name correctly, and that "Amosa" isn't really "Adofa." I'm okay with that too.

I think that anything more than what we can already do as mundanes, might be in the realm of "things someone else might be able to do, but it's one of those topics that don't belong on the GDB."

[HavokBlue]

Trust me, Amos has more friends than you know about. They just don't show themselves publically ever.

What?

[Seeker]

The blue-eyed man contacts your mind.

This is all I want.

This is all I want in the world.

It would solve every problem with The Way I have ever encountered.

Or make it so that when you contact someone's mind with the Way, you don't get a sdesc until you actually send a message to them and reveal your own.

>contact tall.hooded.
You contact their mind.

psi You trying to be sneaky?

You send a telepathic message to the tall, buxom hooded-eye woman:
   "You trying to be sneaky?"

[Desertman]

The blue-eyed man contacts your mind.

This is all I want.

This is all I want in the world.

It would solve every problem with The Way I have ever encountered.

Or make it so that when you contact someone's mind with the Way, you don't get a sdesc until you actually send a message to them and reveal your own.

>contact tall.hooded.
You contact their mind.

psi You trying to be sneaky?

You send a telepathic message to the tall, buxom hooded-eye woman:
   "You trying to be sneaky?"

I suggested this once, but then someone pointed out....What if there are two Amos' in the world and I actually already know one and I'm a good friend of theirs...but I happen to contact the "wrong" Amos...it would just get confusing because I can't see their sdesc.

This is why I would rather just have both parties see sdescs.

[Jherlen]

Perhaps we're all too concerned over the problem of sdesc sniffing to begin with. Maybe, in the world of Zalanthas where psionic contact is possible and an every day occurrence, people wouldn't be as inclined to think a simple cloak and/or facewrap is all the protection they need to hide their face. If contacting someone gives you a mental image of them anyway in your head, the natural defense to hiding your identity would be the barrier skill to hide from someone's mind just like you use clothing to hide from their eyes.

I still do like the recall idea and being able to send Way messages to someone offline, though. It just seems to improve in game communication opportunities, and also help make the game world feel more real. Being offline is a purely OOC construct that has IC consequences, but if you could recieve Way messages while offline, at least other PCs could still feel like they could reach you ICly.

[Seeker]

The blue-eyed man contacts your mind.

This is all I want.

This is all I want in the world.

It would solve every problem with The Way I have ever encountered.

Or make it so that when you contact someone's mind with the Way, you don't get a sdesc until you actually send a message to them and reveal your own.

>contact tall.hooded.
You contact their mind.

psi You trying to be sneaky?

You send a telepathic message to the tall, buxom hooded-eye woman:
   "You trying to be sneaky?"

I suggested this once, but then someone pointed out....What if there are two Amos' in the world and I actually already know one and I'm a good friend of theirs...but I happen to contact the "wrong" Amos...it would just get confusing because I can't see their sdesc.

This is why I would rather just have both parties see sdescs.

Only confusing until you send them a message and see its not the one you wanted.  Then you cease and contact 2.Amos.  The extra cost in stun seems a very cheap price to pay for the solutions it provides.

Why I prefer this option to both parties seeing sdesc instantly on contact is that it allows the "contactee" to put up his barrier in defense after being contacted if she wishes and is paying attention.

>Contact tall.hooded
You contact their mind

Psi You trying to be all sneaky?
Your telepathic message is blocked.

[Delirium]

I like Seeker's solution quite a lot.

[ShaLeah]

I'd prefer if you could ONLY reach someone over the Way through sdesc or name.

[Desertman]

I remembered having this discussion before...more than once...but in one discussion this always stood out to me.

It is glorious, and I wonder what is happening on this front:

For the record, we are talking about making true-names not be contactable either.  Just their current keywords based on their sdesc alone.  Name, any extra keywords you may have added will not work.

Honestly the idea that true-names somehow hold more power is something staff have tried to downplay and are poised to outright say they don't matter.  If we go ahead with this change, the name of your character will be a convenience for you and staff for determining what to call the character.  To all other players, it won't matter unless they do 'addkeyword <person> <keyword>'

You would basically have to meet people and see them with your own eyes and actually "know" them before you could contact them. You would have to know their sdesc from meeting them to find their mind. No more random mind finding of people you have never met just because you heard their name in a bar.

I can't imagine a better system.

[James de Monet]

I've never had a problem with the name thing, but then, I don't know if I've very played a character that has been burned by it. It is important for merchants and leader types to be contactable by people they haven't met, though.

I guess I just always imagined the Way as reaching out for someone's extrapersonal identity. Either you are reaching for a mind that feels (sees itself) as the tall, muscular man, or you are reaching out for a mind that identifies itself as "Amos". It can't help identifying itself that way any more than it can change how it feels. All it can do is try to hide from other minds (barrier).

Sdesc sniffing is less of a problem than it used to be, now that we have same-room restrictions on hoods. I honestly think the key here should be less legislation and more community. If someone is wearing a hood, but isn't doing anything against your character, just let them have their anonymity. Does your char go down the street contacting every hooded vNPC? There are lots of them. It's a desert. Sure, knowledge is power, and knowing people who want to hide who they are could benefit your PC, but so could hunting down every creature in the whole game for hides. You don't do that, why get twinky with knowledge if you don't get twinky with money? Let the game have some mystery. Have more fun.

[BuNutzCola]

The only issue I had with the Way, and it only involves remarkably long lived/well trained characters, is that the process of expelling and then barriering is so prohibitively costly it might as well not be done, unless the one you're pushing out is only a novice. Otherwise you're spending upwards of 50+ stun, only to be recontacted if that's their intent. Also there are numerous ways this can be made completely unviable, and not speaking of mindbenders/magick. (If you'd like a request sent in detailing what I mean here, happy to do so.)

[James de Monet]

Also, this suggestion is totally not worth valuable coding time, but I think it would be kinda fun if you could set a description for how your contacts and barrier breaks feel (in my mind these would be semi-permanent settings that fit the mind of the character, as most non-benders wouldn't have the fine control to change how their mind felt, just like they can't control how it looks externally):

Code Select Expand

A foreign presence contacts your mind, alighting delicately.

Code Select Expand

A foreign presence contacts your mind.
Your barrier is crushed, as a needle-like touch slips through!

-or-

Code Select Expand

A foreign presence contacts your mind.
Your barrier is crushed, as an unyielding touch hammers in!

Would people use it to powergame? Yup. But I think it would give more character to the Way, and make for more interesting psionic nuance. And if you make your PC's touch like a thundering mek or something, you are going to get an earful if you ever punch a more socially important character's barrier, if they don't outright accuse you of bending, given the powerful feel of your mind.

[Quirk]

I remembered having this discussion before...more than once...but in one discussion this always stood out to me.

It is glorious, and I wonder what is happening on this front:

For the record, we are talking about making true-names not be contactable either.  Just their current keywords based on their sdesc alone.  Name, any extra keywords you may have added will not work.

Honestly the idea that true-names somehow hold more power is something staff have tried to downplay and are poised to outright say they don't matter.  If we go ahead with this change, the name of your character will be a convenience for you and staff for determining what to call the character.  To all other players, it won't matter unless they do 'addkeyword <person> <keyword>'

You would basically have to meet people and see them with your own eyes and actually "know" them before you could contact them. You would have to know their sdesc from meeting them to find their mind. No more random mind finding of people you have never met just because you heard their name in a bar.

I can't imagine a better system.

Well, this would work but for the folk who tell you in all seriousness that you'll know Amos because he's tall and muscular.

I'd much prefer you to be only able to contact people you'd actually met. Heck, having a short list of those you've met which you add to with "remember <pc-descriptor>" which adds their identity until you've tried to remember too many people and they drop back off the end would be about perfect for me. It wouldn't necessarily solve the problems of the victim waying for help, unfortunately, but it would kill speculative waying stone dead.

In terms of IC justification, I find it really hard to envisage being able to find the mind of Amos the grebber among a half-million other minds in the city just because someone at the bar repeated some daft rumour about him wanting to sell diamonds/meet a Kadian/join the Byn. I'll admit it's an aid to putting the very newest players in touch with clans, but I think the damage it does to the perceived scale of the game world is serious (here I'm borrowing and repurposing a thought of Delirium's from another thread) - serious enough to outweigh the advantages. It brings us back to the notion that PCs and their True Names are real, and everything else is less so. The whole notion of sdesc sniffing rises out of this powergaming of scale, as knowing that there's an outlaw called Amos who someone's just declared a bounty on is enough to let you find his awake mind despite the hundreds of virtual Amoses with varying relationships to the law.

[Lizzie]

I like the Way how it is. It's not perfect, but any divergence from how it is now, is going to be an improvement for somethings, while making it worse for others.

As someone who rarely learns to master barrier, let alone branching expel, I don't give a flying fart about people who can break my barrier. Most people can break my barrier, and making it harder to use contact, isn't going to make it harder to break -mine- because mine is rarely that great to begin with. That won't affect me at all.

But I can tell you that as someone who has tried to get in touch with her own clan boss - whose barrier was rock-solid - making it HARDER to do that, can make or break a character's existence. Perhaps it's just that my character's wisdom was lower than theirs, and therefore, my contact even at master wasn't going to break through their master barrier until the 5th try.

I don't know what the criteria is. Maybe they have mindbender skills like "clan-shield" that prevents anyone in the clan from getting through. Or "Lizzie-wall" that prevents ME from getting through. But they could be in the same room as me, and I still wouldn't be able to get through. Making it harder, is just going to make it harder. It won't make it more fun, or more useful, or more playable, or more believeable, or more realistic. It'll just make it harder.

As for the whole hooded figure thing - I don't agree with limiting it more. If I meet the masked man, and we're having a grand conversation, and I can see his full mdesc, and everything he's wearing, and he tells me the story of his life, and his real name, and his nickname and why he has it - why in hell should I _not_ be able to find his mind, just because I don't see his sdesc? Half the PCs (or more) in Red Storm are hooded figures. But they hang out at the bar, talk to each other, maybe even stand outside the apartment hallway chit-chatting before they go to their respective apartments. They might know each other by nickname, they might know that they're both rogue mages, they might know all kinds of things about each other - but just haven't ever seen each other with their hoods down. There's no reason why they -shouldn't- be able to contact each other over the way, by name, if their barrier is down and they have decent enough contact skill.

So that's why I like it just the way it is.

[Ourla]

We do need me in this salad because this affects me the same as it affects everybody else. I don't want the Way changed. It's good the way it is. It has enough mystery to be nice and effective, when someone jumps into my mind and promptly jumps out.

I agree.  The delay idea, with respect, seems pretty useless.  The Way is difficult enough to use as it is, and with the vast majority of PCs unable to read to write -- and therefore communicate long distance -- I feel like it would hurt RP to go without it.  Please keep things the way they are.

[Yummri]

Could an admin read over my post from somewhere in this thread and go other a few things in it so I understand their perspective please? Thank You!

[solera]

You all seem to be a bit paranoid. I always have a handful of NPCs and occasionally PCs that I sniff daily because they have the same name/nickname as my friends.   I know when I get briefly sniffed, it's likely to be  because I share a keyword with a more desirable PC with a more unpronounceable name.
Do you they really sniff from impure motives?

[Drayab]

But I can tell you that as someone who has tried to get in touch with her own clan boss - whose barrier was rock-solid - making it HARDER to do that, can make or break a character's existence. Perhaps it's just that my character's wisdom was lower than theirs, and therefore, my contact even at master wasn't going to break through their master barrier until the 5th try.

I find it telling that rock-solid is synonymous with 'only takes five tries to bust it down.'

[James de Monet]

You all seem to be a bit paranoid. I always have a handful of NPCs and occasionally PCs that I sniff daily because they have the same name/nickname as my friends.   I know when I get briefly sniffed, it's likely to be  because I share a keyword with a more desirable PC with a more unpronounceable name.
Do you they really sniff from impure motives?

It's not paranoia if everyone really is out to get you.

[Patuk]

I like the Way how it is. It's not perfect, but any divergence from how it is now, is going to be an improvement for somethings, while making it worse for others.

As someone who rarely learns to master barrier, let alone branching expel, I don't give a flying fart about people who can break my barrier. Most people can break my barrier, and making it harder to use contact, isn't going to make it harder to break -mine- because mine is rarely that great to begin with. That won't affect me at all.

But I can tell you that as someone who has tried to get in touch with her own clan boss - whose barrier was rock-solid - making it HARDER to do that, can make or break a character's existence. Perhaps it's just that my character's wisdom was lower than theirs, and therefore, my contact even at master wasn't going to break through their master barrier until the 5th try.

I don't know what the criteria is. Maybe they have mindbender skills like "clan-shield" that prevents anyone in the clan from getting through. Or "Lizzie-wall" that prevents ME from getting through. But they could be in the same room as me, and I still wouldn't be able to get through. Making it harder, is just going to make it harder. It won't make it more fun, or more useful, or more playable, or more believeable, or more realistic. It'll just make it harder.

As for the whole hooded figure thing - I don't agree with limiting it more. If I meet the masked man, and we're having a grand conversation, and I can see his full mdesc, and everything he's wearing, and he tells me the story of his life, and his real name, and his nickname and why he has it - why in hell should I _not_ be able to find his mind, just because I don't see his sdesc? Half the PCs (or more) in Red Storm are hooded figures. But they hang out at the bar, talk to each other, maybe even stand outside the apartment hallway chit-chatting before they go to their respective apartments. They might know each other by nickname, they might know that they're both rogue mages, they might know all kinds of things about each other - but just haven't ever seen each other with their hoods down. There's no reason why they -shouldn't- be able to contact each other over the way, by name, if their barrier is down and they have decent enough contact skill.

So that's why I like it just the way it is.

If your clan boss had his barrier up, you'd better have some awfully important business to mention to him to feel entitled to break it down.

That said, when someone has his barrier up, it's their way of going 'I don't want to be talked to right now.' Let's compare it to Zalanthas' equivalent of turning off your phone. The difference here is that me turning off my phone will mean that I won't get any calls, whereas the five tries you consider so taxing still mean your boss can't remain inconspicuous if he wishes to be so.

[Lizzie]

If your clan boss had his barrier up, you'd better have some awfully important business to mention to him to feel entitled to break it down.

That said, when someone has his barrier up, it's their way of going 'I don't want to be talked to right now.' Let's compare it to Zalanthas' equivalent of turning off your phone. The difference here is that me turning off my phone will mean that I won't get any calls, whereas the five tries you consider so taxing still mean your boss can't remain inconspicuous if he wishes to be so.

Well yes - it would be important. That's why I would try more than once or twice. Something like..

psi Faithful Lady Blissful and six soldiers're on the way to the compound, and she looks seriously pissed. RUN!

or

psi Supersenior Agent Drudge-di wants you to meet her in her office immediately, she's waiting right now.

or

psi Lord Borsail, I got y'pregnant wife. Good lookin she-tok, too. Innerested in terms for her release or should I just gobble her and yer unborn kid up right now?

or

psi Hey Agent Salarr, that guy at the table yer interviewin for a job. He's a spy fer that independent crew that runs outta Red Storm.

[Harmless]

Just a thought, but if you got a message every time your barrier succeeded in blocking a contact attempt... and if you could somehow know WHO it was that tried to contact you, you could then let down your barrier for them to send a brief message.

Caller ID?

[Twilight]

Two threads on the same topic.  Mmm.

Make it so you penetrate barrier with a contact, not bring it down.  A chance when you penetrate to give your sdesc to the person you are contacting.  Contact and psi messages through a penetrated barrier to not give the sdesc of the person you contacted (you can still talk to them, just can't see their sdesc).  A way, perhaps using expel, to bring down the barrier of someone whose barrier you have penetrated.

[MeTekillot]

I think you should be able to psi-listen to let you overhear Way conversations that are being heard near you in the same room. I don't like how the Way is 100% discreet to everyone but participants and mindbenders.

And having this on should be apparent to any person's messages you intend to intercept. Higher contact means there's a better chance of you getting caught.

[palomar]

Personally, I'd prefer if the Way stays the same. Yes, it can be annoying with contact/cease, or people who contact and then forget about it. Yes, barrier sometimes seems too weak (especially since the change 6-7 years ago or so). I still think the Way shouldn't be changed, and I'd like to keep psionic abilities to the absolutely simplest forms when it comes to mundanes/non-psions. I don't have any arguments for it except that it's a matter of flavor and preference.

[BuNutzCola]

Would rather contact just be auto-successful against non-barriered targets, and barriers be more effective overall.

[solera]

I think you should be able to psi-listen to let you overhear Way conversations that are being heard near you in the same room. I don't like how the Way is 100% discreet to everyone but participants and mindbenders.

Not 100%. It's an OOC accident, but I like the way psi's and thinks sometimes leak. I look on it as a penalty of psionic powers, and always treat it as an IC fact.

[MeTekillot]

\It's an OOC accident

always treat it as an IC fact.

i don't fancy the cut of this jib.

[Tyas]

Brief Barrier
Barrier Status

No longer have to see the echo of when someone enters or leaves your mind. You can opt out of watching your characters constant suffering. I want to see a brief command added to the Way.

[DustMight]

Brief Barrier
Barrier Status

No longer have to see the echo of when someone enters or leaves your mind. You can opt out of watching your characters constant suffering. I want to see a brief command added to the Way.

Client-side gag command?

[Tyas]

This is more than a great idea. I never would of thought of looking into that. Thanks.

Brief Barrier
Barrier Status

No longer have to see the echo of when someone enters or leaves your mind. You can opt out of watching your characters constant suffering. I want to see a brief command added to the Way.

Client-side gag command?

[James de Monet]

Brief Barrier
Barrier Status

No longer have to see the echo of when someone enters or leaves your mind. You can opt out of watching your characters constant suffering. I want to see a brief command added to the Way.

You might want to be careful with that at lower skill levels.  It's a good way to take an unplanned nap.

[Tyas]

Brief Barrier
Barrier Status

No longer have to see the echo of when someone enters or leaves your mind. You can opt out of watching your characters constant suffering. I want to see a brief command added to the Way.

You might want to be careful with that at lower skill levels.  It's a good way to take an unplanned nap.

It never concerned me, going unconscious from use of the Way alone. I am careful about tending to my characters on that. Although, I do enjoy the challenge of forcing out low stats during character creation. The one right now though is running on zero stun and is dumb as a door knob. So I've got barrier up constantly the past months on him, and the bloke ain't learned nothin' yet. I cannot fathom going through this again and again, and again, with my future characters. No, no no no!

EDIT: And therefore, I did what DustMight recommended with the client-side gag command.

[RogueGunslinger]