Is barrier effective enough?

[RogueGunslinger]

Do you think barrier is an effective means to hide your mind from contact? I don't.


Personally I think it's way to easy to break through a maxed barrier. Someone with master barrier should be effectively logged out/dead for anyone who doesn't have master contact. And even then I think it should take 4-5 tries.


Edit: Damn S key.

[ShaLeah]

I'm on the fence. Why? There are times when the person is right in front of me and I can't reach them with their barrier on. Other times I break on through. Not sure the parameters.

[Nyr]

It's a pretty good means of hiding one's mind from contact.  It is not unstoppable, but there's more going into the whole thing than just skills (but that's mechanics info).

[Fujikoma]

I know at least a few of my characters could blast right through a barrier in 2-3 tries. I knew the people were barriered beforehand, or they let me know "Damnit! I just got that thing up!" from the other side of the known. Not sure if having multiple people trying to contact you at the same time has diddly to do with it, but it might.

EDIT: Line edited out because not relevant.

Not to mention:

Barrier
You form a psionic barrier around your mind (-bazillion stun)
1 second passes
You suffer from use of the way (-chunk)
half second
You suffer from use of the way -again (-other chunk)
three quarters of a second
You suffer from use of the way, sucka! (-more)
five seconds of relative calm
Your psionic barrier has been crushed!
three seconds go by
You sense a foreign presence withdraw from your mind

think (pissed) Not fecking again! Krath-damnit I'm going to find that little piss-brain, clamp down his feet, tie up his arms, and pull until he can kiss his own arse!

Just my opinion. I don't know, maybe if you don't make a lot of noise and interact, maybe you don't get that kind of issue, but it seems like a really dull time to me. Sometimes you just need a break, however.

Like,

Somewhere, in a dank, dark and bug infested apartment:

ooc: Hey Talia, consent for naughty bits?
The bulky, square-jawed savage oocs: Sure!

The bulky, square-jawed savage snaps her obsidian-tipped leather whip with a snarl, advancing rapidly.

barrier
You form a psionic barrier around your mind.

You suffer from use of the way.
Your psionic barrier is crushed!

The slack-jawed prick with no sense of fun sends you a telepathic message:
Hey Poopgargler, why the feck aren't you at training?!

EDIT AGAIN: Granted, there are many times it may have worked very well and I just did not know.

[evilcabbage]

He doesn't know you had a barrier up. And if he knows you're not at training, he's a mindbender

Master contact is not an end-all contact measure for people, just as master barrier is not an end-all blockout for people. Some people will naturally be better at blocking their minds, or breaking into other peoples minds. Psionicists even moreso because of their skillset.

[Narf]

He doesn't know you had a barrier up. And if he knows you're not at training, he's a mindbender

Actually, in my experience they usually know you're not at training because they're standing in the training yard looking at you not being there.

[Fujikoma]

THEY KNOW YOU'RE NOT AT TRAINING BECAUSE:

A) They're at training, and instead of assuming it's that time of the week you spend recovering from your beatings decide to way you
B) The Sergeant heard you weren't at training for whatever reason (maybe you're (un)popular)
C) They're secretly IN THE APARTMENT WITH YOU! AGGGHHHHH!

and
Z) Mindbender who gives a crap whether you're at training or not, who could probably find an excuse to get off duty, and I'm not sure about the skills here but, possibly watch(?)/interfere with(??)/make you go crazy and kill eachother (God I hope not) for her/his amusement, but has chosen instead to remind you of your duty to the clan.

[Patuk]

I think a master barrier being breakable by mundane contact(psions are another story altogether) defeats most of its purpose. You can say that it takes someone with master contact, and even then a few tries, to go through your barrier, but effectively speaking this means you might as well not have a barrier up at all.

[Delirium]

lower the cap for contact for non-psions to advanced. Leave barrier the way it is.

[Desertman]

I think a master barrier being breakable by mundane contact(psions are another story altogether) defeats most of its purpose.

This.

[Molten Heart]

lower the cap for contact for non-psions to advanced. Leave barrier the way it is.

[Desertman]

Also, change the Way so that when someone contacts me, it sends me their sdesc.

The blue-eyed man contacts your mind.

This would put an end to a ton of the Way sniffing that goes on.

[Harmless]

Also, change the Way so that when someone contacts me, it sends me their sdesc.

The blue-eyed man contacts your mind.

This would put an end to a ton of the Way sniffing that goes on.

It would put an end to some. I would argue that militia wouldn't give two shits if the person they're looking for knows who they are. Or, it would farm out the "job" of Way sniffing to people who don't have to keep their own identity hidden. Either way I agree with the suggestion.

[DustMight]

I think it's fine the way it is.  When I've had characters that needed to keep people out of their heads, they have been able to do so. Maybe not as fast as learning to cook, but one can get there with attention and focus.

[Desertman]

I think it's fine the way it is.  When I've had characters that needed to keep people out of their heads, they have been able to do so. Maybe not as fast as learning to cook, but one can get there with attention and focus.

My master barrier villains would only get their barriers crushed ten times a RL day just by people checking to see if they were online and "hunt-able"/"not a threat to them". (Seeing if I was online or offline, no other reason, or the latest bounty hunter just getting my sdesc.)

I would love to know what you were doing to prevent this.

[Fujikoma]

I think it's fine the way it is.  When I've had characters that needed to keep people out of their heads, they have been able to do so. Maybe not as fast as learning to cook, but one can get there with attention and focus.

My master barrier villains would only get their barriers crushed ten times a RL day just by people checking to see if they were online and "hunt-able"/"not a threat to them". (Seeing if I was online or offline, no other reason, or the latest bounty hunter just getting my sdesc.)

I would love to know what you were doing to prevent this.

I'd make the joke about nobles and tinfoil hats but I think someone did in a thread somewhere, I forget if it was me or someone else, likely, someone else.

EDIT: Ok, it was me, whoops.

[TillForPie]

I think it's fine the way it is.  When I've had characters that needed to keep people out of their heads, they have been able to do so. Maybe not as fast as learning to cook, but one can get there with attention and focus.

My master barrier villains would only get their barriers crushed ten times a RL day just by people checking to see if they were online and "hunt-able"/"not a threat to them". (Seeing if I was online or offline, no other reason, or the latest bounty hunter just getting my sdesc.)

I would love to know what you were doing to prevent this.

What I don't understand is how doing this, clearly to check if you're online, isn't reportable metagaming. Is it?

[DustMight]

My master barrier villains would only get their barriers crushed ten times a RL day just by people checking to see if they were online and "hunt-able"/"not a threat to them". (Seeing if I was online or offline, no other reason, or the latest bounty hunter just getting my sdesc.)

I don't understand how you know for sure someone is metagaming you unless they somehow admit it to you in an OOC channel or something?  How do you know it's not someone looking for someone with a similar sdesc? 

[Malken]

I think it's fine the way it is.  When I've had characters that needed to keep people out of their heads, they have been able to do so. Maybe not as fast as learning to cook, but one can get there with attention and focus.

My master barrier villains would only get their barriers crushed ten times a RL day just by people checking to see if they were online and "hunt-able"/"not a threat to them". (Seeing if I was online or offline, no other reason, or the latest bounty hunter just getting my sdesc.)

I would love to know what you were doing to prevent this.

Same here. I long gave up on barrier, and when someone tells me to "barrier up" because they're about to tell me some dark secrets, I just pretend that I'm barrier'ed up.

[Desertman]

My master barrier villains would only get their barriers crushed ten times a RL day just by people checking to see if they were online and "hunt-able"/"not a threat to them". (Seeing if I was online or offline, no other reason, or the latest bounty hunter just getting my sdesc.)

I don't understand how you know for sure someone is metagaming you unless they somehow admit it to you in an OOC channel or something?  How do you know it's not someone looking for someone with a similar sdesc?  

Because it only happens to my villains with unique sdescs? I have played a few of them. It never happens to my non-villains. I guess it is just one big coincidence that happens no less than five to ten times a RL day and only with those characters that I know are being hunted.

[Delirium]

Being able to effectively maintain a barrier would make the game world feel a little less tiny. It isn't just about being hunted or hiding secrets or what have you - it's about the fact that it's nearly impossible to remain truly low-profile - in a vast world - because of the small playerbase, and because of the Way. It would help all sorts of PCs be less visible, if they so chose.

I recognize that the Way does make it easier to facilitate interaction, but it does so at the expense of making the gameworld feel extraordinarily small.

Obscuring sdescs and making barrier more effective would be a nice step at the very least.

[LauraMars]

lower the cap for contact for non-psions to advanced. Leave barrier the way it is.

Yeah, I like this.  The Way is OOC convenience, sure, but if your character doesn't -want- to talk to people, it should be a little easier to avoid doing so.

[Fujikoma]

Being able to effectively maintain a barrier would make the game world feel a little less tiny. It isn't just about being hunted or hiding secrets or what have you - it's about the fact that it's nearly impossible to remain truly low-profile - in a vast world - because of the small playerbase, and because of the Way. It would help all sorts of PCs be less visible, if they so chose.

I recognize that the Way does make it easier to facilitate interaction, but it does so at the expense of making the gameworld feel extraordinarily small.

Obscuring sdescs and making barrier more effective would be a nice step at the very least.

Hee-hee, have low level failures on contact maybe contact a different faint shape in the playerbase.

[Patuk]

I recognize that the Way does make it easier to facilitate interaction, but it does so at the expense of making the gameworld feel extraordinarily small.

Obscuring sdescs and making barrier more effective would be a nice step at the very least.

This, very much. Buffing up barrier wouldn't make interaction harder, it would merely make avoiding the interaction you may not want easier.

[Barzalene]

He doesn't know you had a barrier up. And if he knows you're not at training, he's a mindbender

Actually, in my experience they usually know you're not at training because they're standing in the training yard looking at you not being there.

If I wasn't attached to my sig, this would be my new one.

[Qzzrbl]

Because I haven't plugged this thread regarding The Way nearly enough this year.

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,34854.0.html

[Drayab]

I like the idea of simply lowering the non-psion skill cap for contact to advanced.

[Delirium]

The benefit to a nigh-unbreakable barrier for the commonfolk: "I can't find his mind, he must have it walled off" would make a lot more sense.

It would no longer be codespeak for "meh, I've tried five times so he must be offline. Time to go loot his apartment!"

[Twilight]

Just change barrier.  Make it so that a successful contact through a barrier doesn't "break" it, it penetrates it.  On the barrier'd person side, make it so you could have a chance of seeing the person's sdesc that penetrates your barrier (a chance, like 10%), with no chance of seeing a Psi's sdescs.  On the flip side, if you penetrate someone's barrier, you don't get to see their sdesc, you only get to see "someone".

So...

You penetrate someone's barrier!

psi Gonna kill you fool

You send to someone, "gonna kill you fool"

And...

Someone penetrates your barrier!
or
The stone-cold killer penetrates your barrier!

You suffer from use of the way.  (barrier is still up, effective against anyone that hasn't penetrated it)

And if you wanted to be really tricky, make expel work so that it would work to try to bring down the barrier you have penetrated by contacting them.

[Kismetic]

It's been said a billion times, and it makes the most sense:  replace a foreign presence with the person's sdesc.  Now, every sneaky, twinky mothereffer who was abusing the code's natural (and unexplainable) anonymity now has to rethink that method as a strategy.  And militia and the like who don't care about being found out?  Now, it's a legitimate strategy to suss out whether you're on the move.

Code Select Expand

Your psionic barrier is crushed!
The plasticine, pretty boy templar contacts your mind.

The plasticine, pretty boy templar sends you a telepathic message:
"I'll be seein' ya real soon.  You can't hide forever."

You sense the plasticine, pretty boy templar withdraw from your mind.

That last part there has the added benefit of making multi-Way conversations a billion times less confusing and a hassle.  And really, do those two minor changes take away ANYTHING from the psionicists?  And if you do this, you really don't need to change barrier.  People will be a lot more careful who they contact, even going as far as using "contact tall.amos" and "contact tressy.talia", at least, one might think.

[Drayab]

I think that's a fine idea as well, but I like the reduced cap idea more. Besides making it easier to stay hidden as a sneaky type, I like the idea of psionic communication being tricky for the average person. Thinking about it logically (armchair fantasy logic), it seems like it ought to be way, way easier to shield/hide your own mind than to reach out across the Known and bust down other people's mental barrier, flawlessly transmit your own thoughts into their head, and also learn what they look like.

[TillForPie]

I think that's a fine idea as well, but I like the reduced cap idea more. Besides making it easier to stay hidden as a sneaky type, I like the idea of psionic communication being tricky for the average person. Thinking about it logically (armchair fantasy logic), it seems like it ought to be way, way easier to shield/hide your own mind than to reach out across the Known and bust down other people's mental barrier, flawlessly transmit your own thoughts into their head, and also learn what they look like.

And all without them being able to do the same to you.

[Armaddict]

...even when barrier is being crushed, part of the whole point of it is that you can sense it.

At least in the 'keeping secrets secret' sense.

[Drayab]

Well, it is good for that, but it's functioning more as a warning mechanism than an actual barrier in that case.

Kind of like saying that your front door is useful because the police make a lot of noise breaking it down.

[Armaddict]

Considering that most people make minimal effort at building up that defense, I'd consider that okay.

You guys are asking for the steel door of fort knox for little to no reason.  Contact is used commonly.  Barrier is not.  If you're in a situation where security of your mind and conversations is of utmost importance, treat it that way.  It becomes more manageable, more effective, and when it fails, it is a surefire sign that now is not the time to discuss such matters.

Particularly after you notice a few things, through the experience.

Barrier is fine.  It works -very- well for those who want it to work well.  I'm not sure where this came from, even.  In all my time on Arm, there's been a total of one time where I found a weakness to barrier, and I don't think it has been discussed here (nor should it be).

[Molten Heart]

What if barrier provided some kind of warning before it broke.  Something like:

You feel pressure on your psionic barrier.

This would let you know someone was knocking on your barrier and that it might be coming down soon.

[Delirium]

Automatically showing sdescs on contact would absolutely screw over psionicists and so I don't think that's the solution.

Now, if there were a chance that the sdesc would show, dependant on various factors, I could get behind that.

[TillForPie]

Automatically showing sdescs on contact would absolutely screw over psionicists and so I don't think that's the solution.

Now, if there were a chance that the sdesc would show, dependant on various factors, I could get behind that.

Or just make it so that only psionicists could hide their sdesc when contacting. Maybe even give them the ability to send messages without revealing their sdesc at higher skill levels.

[Potaje]

It's been said a billion times, and it makes the most sense:  replace a foreign presence with the person's sdesc.  Now, every sneaky, twinky mothereffer who was abusing the code's natural (and unexplainable) anonymity now has to rethink that method as a strategy.  And militia and the like who don't care about being found out?  Now, it's a legitimate strategy to suss out whether you're on the move.

Code Select Expand

Your psionic barrier is crushed!
The plasticine, pretty boy templar contacts your mind.

The plasticine, pretty boy templar sends you a telepathic message:
"I'll be seein' ya real soon.  You can't hide forever."

You sense the plasticine, pretty boy templar withdraw from your mind.

That last part there has the added benefit of making multi-Way conversations a billion times less confusing and a hassle.  And really, do those two minor changes take away ANYTHING from the psionicists?  And if you do this, you really don't need to change barrier.  People will be a lot more careful who they contact, even going as far as using "contact tall.amos" and "contact tressy.talia", at least, one might think.

+1

I like this idea, If the presence enters and withdraws from your mind it would make sense you'r mind would likely identify that presence, unless the presence has a means to mask themselves. Which on a mundane I would not think is possible. And i agree it would make sense that you would know who of the two or more people in your mind have withdrawn because you would not feel their presence there any longer, not simply some presence is no longer there.

However, I would like to know staff's reasoning, if there was any, behind why a person could not tell the identity of an intruding presence.

Or is this just a piece of dated code, that has not been reconsidered over these many years?

[Twilight]

Automatically knowing who it is that contacted you is a bad idea.  There are some things that this would impact that shouldn't be impacted.

Having a chance to know who it is, if you are actively trying to keep people from your mind, that I could get behind.

[RogueGunslinger]

Automatically knowing who it is that contacted you is a bad idea.  There are some things that this would impact that shouldn't be impacted.

Like what? I'm having a hard time figuring out why you would contact someone and leave without saying anything, unless you were checking to see if they were online or alive.

[Twilight]

Can't say.

[Drayab]

Considering that most people make minimal effort at building up that defense, I'd consider that okay.

Nobody is complaining that novice level barrier is weak. That not many people seem to be using it could also be taken as evidence that it's too weak because (1) maybe you don't notice other people's barrier breaking because it breaks so damn easily or (2) a lot of people don't bother with it because it's a lot of work to develop a weak skill. I know that I have had master level barrier on several characters and have not found it to be useful for what its name would imply.

You guys are asking for the steel door of fort knox for little to no reason. 

I think there are plenty good reasons to weaken contact.

• Reduce metagaming abuses, like checking if a raider is online before going hunting.
• Allow sneakies to better hide their online status from enforcers.
• Make 'offensive' psionics like sdesc sniffing something only for psionists.
• Make the psionics mechanics more believable by reducing one's influence in other people's mind while strengthening influence in your own.

Contact is used commonly.  Barrier is not.

I don't know how you can know this without being on staff. I know that I use it. Do you not use it yourself?

If you're in a situation where security of your mind and conversations is of utmost importance, treat it that way.  It becomes more manageable, more effective, and when it fails, it is a surefire sign that now is not the time to discuss such matters.

Particularly after you notice a few things, through the experience.

I can't argue with this modus operandi, but this particular situation is not the one I think would be helped by lowering the contact cap. This situation would be made less annoying, perhaps, but more importantly, I think there other situations would become possible which currently are flimsy or untenable.

Barrier is fine.  It works -very- well for those who want it to work well.  I'm not sure where this came from, even.  In all my time on Arm, there's been a total of one time where I found a weakness to barrier, and I don't think it has been discussed here (nor should it be).

Speak for yourself.  

[Armaddict]

Lowering the contact cap is fine, though as I recall, there was a similar thread to this demanding that contact be made easier a few years back.  Newbie contact was raised as result, IF I RECALL CORRECTLY.  I think lowering it would have people wondering why they can't one shot contact across the known anymore and the tediousness of it and etc and etc.  But for the record, I think that's fine.  Also, and I may be completely out of line here, but I believe that skill caps on psionic skills are determined differently than just a simple 'Make it lower for mundanes'.  I think.  I could be wrong here.

What I was more addressing was the all around message of barrier being useless, when I've had very good experiences with it...on the characters that actually had a reason to demand it.

As far as metagaming purposes...I don't even know what to say to those sort of accusations. Get mad at enemies for finding out your online all you like, but I kinda -like- having friends being able to tell when I'm on.  Sneakies having a hard time because an enforcer knows they're online?  -Really-? Regardless, if I recall, I thought there was mention of those things working as intended.

[Drayab]

Sneakies having a hard time because an enforcer knows they're online?  -Really-? Regardless, if I recall, I thought there was mention of those things working as intended.

It's all about the element of surprise. 

[RogueGunslinger]

Armaddict you're missing the point. I think Barrier is useful for other things too, but for it's documented, intended purpose, which this thread is supposed to be about? Just no, it doesn't. Barrier isn't nearly good enough against equal levels of contact.

Nobody is saying barrier is useless. We're saying it's useless at keeping people out of your mind when they want to contact you. All someone has to do is spam it about 5 times and bam, they're in. I too, don't give a shit about meta-game issues, which is why I directed the poll and thread to specifically address Barriers INTENDED/DOCUMENTED use. There's a whole 'nother thread that deals with the Way as a whole.

Saying you like having your friends get a hold of you is completely beside the point, because you already have that option by NOT using barrier. Wheres the option of having your friends/enemies not find you? Currently it doesn't exist because barrier is too weak.

[Patuk]

Lowering the contact cap is fine, though as I recall, there was a similar thread to this demanding that contact be made easier a few years back.  Newbie contact was raised as result, IF I RECALL CORRECTLY.  I think lowering it would have people wondering why they can't one shot contact across the known anymore and the tediousness of it and etc and etc.  But for the record, I think that's fine.  Also, and I may be completely out of line here, but I believe that skill caps on psionic skills are determined differently than just a simple 'Make it lower for mundanes'.  I think.  I could be wrong here.

What I was more addressing was the all around message of barrier being useless, when I've had very good experiences with it...on the characters that actually had a reason to demand it.

As far as metagaming purposes...I don't even know what to say to those sort of accusations. Get mad at enemies for finding out your online all you like, but I kinda -like- having friends being able to tell when I'm on.  Sneakies having a hard time because an enforcer knows they're online?  -Really-? Regardless, if I recall, I thought there was mention of those things working as intended.

Okay, so, for the record..

If you make barrier stronger without weakening contact, people can go about with barriers that are actually effective without said barriers being breakable by everyone and their mother who's lived past an OOC month.

Likewise, buffing barrier doesn't make it harder for your friends to notice you being online; it'd only do so if you actually had a raised barrier.

And yes, enforcers knowing you're online does make it harder for a sneaky to do anything. Even in playing a sneaky for a relatively short time, I found that everytime something went only slightly awry, half the city's militia and knights in shining armor would be all over you, waying you that X had happened and you should show up to make sure you weren't involved.

[Kismetic]

Automatically showing sdescs on contact would absolutely screw over psionicists and so I don't think that's the solution.

Absolutely screw over, or make an 8 karma guild harder to learn?  Hmm.  ...  I'm positive we need this code change to make sense of the gameworld.

[Timetwister]

Or you know you could make it so psions are the only ones who can contact undetected. How does that screw them over?

[Cabooze]

Or you know you could make it so psions are the only ones who can contact undetected. How does that screw them over?

The tall mundane man contacts your mind

think "yeah alright no big deal"

A foreign presence contacts your mind

think "OH FUCK"


Something like that?

[Lizzie]

Or you know you could make it so psions are the only ones who can contact undetected. How does that screw them over?

The tall mundane man contacts your mind

think "yeah alright no big deal"

A foreign presence contacts your mind

think "OH FUCK"


Something like that?

But then you'd know that the tall mundane man is -not- a mindbender. We already know that SLKs are -not- mages, and there are only two desert elf tribes that are open for players...

And then we also know that several sponsored roles are mundane-only because that's how they're requested on the GDB..

There's a lot of OOC ways to determine what someone is NOT, already. Ruling out things simply by innocuous posts on the GDB, means we know that this person can -not- do x, y, or z to us ICly, because he is -not- a mindbender, or a mage...

Sometimes, that is information that makes things way too easy for us to abuse, whether intentionally or not, IG. Sometimes even that little bit of OOC knowledge can slip through into our RP even though we don't intend for it to.

This is one of the reasons why I think these discussions regarding what we want, or don't want, for mundanes to have regarding psionics, is not a good idea to have on the GDB.

I don't think it's a good idea to discuss anything on the GDB, that has anything to do with skills that belong to -any- "ic-senstitive info" guild/race/subguild/skillset.  Even if you're asking for mundanes to have it. Because, if non-mundanes already have it, no one is allowed to SAY so on the GDB, which makes discussions of this nature awkward at best.

[Timetwister]

How is that any different than the current system? I won't get into mechanics but you know if a psion is doing stuff to you. Either way it doesn't matter. It doesn't suddenly reveal anything great. So you know somebody -very- skilled with the way is in your head. Better barrier up.

[Rhyden]

Or you know you could make it so psions are the only ones who can contact undetected. How does that screw them over?

If psions had a skill to contact undetected, this idea would solve most issues addressed so far.

I like sdesc-revealing contact, or Seeker's anonymous idea. As long as the potential for way-sniffing is eliminated, I'm happy.

[MeTekillot]

Higher contact/barrier means you have a better chance of seeing someone's sdesc when they contact you. Make it only work 70-80% at maxed contact. Give psions special anon-contact ability or stealth contact.

[X-D]

Really...you should not be talking about what they may or may not get.

but the docs do say they are "masters of the way". I think it is safe to assume that somebody who is a MASTER of the way has pretty much every tool you can think of. I rather doubt any psi skills some lowly normal way user might have cannot be easily dealt with by a Master of the way.

I am all for lowering max contact some. As it stands, even taking into account Nyr mentioning that many things might come into play. If you take a non-bender PC that has all those things, and the other is a half-giant with master contact, it still only takes 2-5 tries to break that barrier from the other end of the world.

[Yasbusta]

Not only do you have to find another person's thoughts but you have to break their barrier with contact.

A higher level skill in contact should rarely break a bit lower one.

This is unfortunately not the case.

Barrier currently is useless unless it is against your underlings.

[perfecto]

I'm not exactly sure how barrier holds true to each race, but I'm almost certain that there is a difference between us as some are "smarter" than others.  I think it's fine the way it is; much like most of the things you players try to change daily!  This game has gone on for two decades as the hands down, best mud on the internet. (in mine and many others opinion) It almost pisses me off that you all keep trying to tweek the system just "a little more" to your liking...  Maybe you should try to play the game, not the admin.

edit to say: I don't mean it to sound Harsh.  I'm just a big fan of the game the way it is.  "No changes necessary"  That's all I'm saying. Do you know what I am saying?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=su-HUDo7XQ4

[Fujikoma]

I'm not exactly sure how barrier holds true to each race, but I'm almost certain that there is a difference between us as some are "smarter" than others.  I think it's fine the way it is; much like most of the things you players try to change daily!  This game has gone on for two decades as the hands down, best mud on the internet. (in mine and many others opinion) It almost pisses me off that you all keep trying to tweek the system just "a little more" to your liking...  Maybe you should try to play the game, not the admin.

Wow, resistant to change much? It's a discussion. Feel free to contribute to either side but the harshness is a little much.

[Ouroboros]

I'm in the group that feels barrier is largely ineffective. Mileage may vary and there are multiple factors at play, yes, but my experience with mastered barrier has been that it doesn't serve as a barrier at all. It's simply there as an indicator to let you know when your mind is no longer your own. As it stands, calling it barrier instead of tripwire or alarm doesn't feel too accurate. It feels like a balloon that pops at the slightest pinprick, not a barrier of any sort.

I don't however feel the contact cap should be lowered. I understand it's the easy fix, but breaking something to fix something else seems illogical. Contact as a skill works fine for it's intended use, it's barrier that's ineffective. So I'd rather see the barrier formula tweaked instead, to make breaking it harder.

I think it's fine the way it is; much like most of the things you players try to change daily!  This game has gone on for two decades as the hands down, best mud on the internet. (in mine and many others opinion) It almost pisses me off that you all keep trying to tweek the system just "a little more" to your liking...  Maybe you should try to play the game, not the admin.

I'll point out this game has not "gone on for two decades" unchanged. It's seen hundreds of small and major changes over the years, and will always continue to. If you're looking for unchanging stability in your life, look elsewhere. I'll also point out this thread is in a Code Discussion section placed here exactly so players can discuss code changes amongst themselves and staff. Discussion is critical to positive change, and by extension, our experience of the game. If you don't have anything constructive to contribute to a discussion, keep it to yourself. There's a big gap between this works for me as it is ...and... this is how it should be, and always has been, and always will be, and please don't even think about changing it, the very thought is heresy, amen.

TL;DR: Change happens, get over it.

Edit: You might not have meant it to come off harsh, but it did. Next time you feel the desire to reply with the fact you like the game as it is, consider the fact it's an illogical statement. You can't like the game as it is, because its consistently changed. You might like it as it is right now, sure, but that means you probably didn't like it before the last change that happened a couple days/months/years ago. And if that's the case, you can't argue against change because change is what made you like it now. If it isn't the case, and you like it no matter what change happens, arguing against change makes you come off as a fanboy arguing for arguments sake at best, or a troll at worse.

[RogueGunslinger]

edit to say: I don't mean it to sound Harsh.  I'm just a big fan of the game the way it is.  "No changes necessary"  That's all I'm saying. Do you know what I am saying?

Wow. I'm really glad I'm not playing the game as imagined by you.... No extended sub-guilds, no Karma policy, no new additions to the 'rinth, no revised Tuluki documentation...

Safe to say your idea of the game fucking sucks. How is that for harsh?

[Lizzie]

You hear all that silence in your head? That's the sound of all the people who tried to get past your barrier and failed.

That guy who broke through? That's the one who broke through.

[RogueGunslinger]

You hear all that silence in your head? That's the sound of all the people who tried to get past your barrier and failed.

That guy who broke through? That's the one who broke through.

While this is a well known occurrence and cause of bias, it's definitely been considered in all of my arguments. I'm talking about master contact and master barrier, getting through on the first try, every time. Sometime it takes a couple more tries, but it's rare.

Your example is also why I made this into a poll, to get other peoples perspective.

[Lizzie]

You hear all that silence in your head? That's the sound of all the people who tried to get past your barrier and failed.

That guy who broke through? That's the one who broke through.

While this is a well known occurrence and cause of bias, it's definitely been considered in all of my arguments. I'm talking about master contact and master barrier, getting through on the first try, every time. Sometime it takes a couple more tries, but it's rare.

Your example is also why I made this into a poll, to get other peoples perspective.

I know. I'm disagreeing with the notion that anyone with master contact can get through anyone with master barrier, every time they try. It just ain't so. This is why I feel changing it is without merit. Some people can always get through some other peoples' barriers, every time. Some can't always, but can sometimes. Some can, only rarely.

And then - some people can get through -most- PCs' barriers. Some can only get through some other peoples' barriers. Some can only get through one or two peoples' barriers.

It already works that way now. Making it harder for everyone to get through, will just make it harder for everyone to get through. It won't make the game any more fun, or playable, or realistic, or functional. If you don't want to be someone that people are always trying to get through your barrier, don't play a high-profile role. If you don't heed that advice, then you have to accept that some people will always be able to get through. And conversely - if you are keeping it up to prevent person "A" from getting through, you are very likely to prevent person B from getting through too. If you need to hear from person B, then you have to drop your barrier and hope person A isn't looking for your head at the moment.

Such is the nature of psionics in Zalanthas. I don't think it's a problem, I don't think it needs to be improved, I don't think that improving it WILL improve it.

[Jherlen]

I kinda liked someone's idea of contact auto-succeeding on someone without a barrier up. That would mean lots fewer PCs would have master contact, unless they'd spent time trying to break down people's barriers. It'd make barrier comparatively stronger for many, since having master contact would be harder, and presumably lower-level contact has a hard time breaking down barrier. It'd also make it easier on brand new PCs who are trying to contact folk to find work and fainting because they suck at contact.

[RogueGunslinger]

You hear all that silence in your head? That's the sound of all the people who tried to get past your barrier and failed.

That guy who broke through? That's the one who broke through.

While this is a well known occurrence and cause of bias, it's definitely been considered in all of my arguments. I'm talking about master contact and master barrier, getting through on the first try, every time. Sometime it takes a couple more tries, but it's rare.

Your example is also why I made this into a poll, to get other peoples perspective.

I know. I'm disagreeing with the notion that anyone with master contact can get through anyone with master barrier, every time they try. It just ain't so. This is why I feel changing it is without merit. Some people can always get through some other peoples' barriers, every time. Some can't always, but can sometimes. Some can, only rarely.

And then - some people can get through -most- PCs' barriers. Some can only get through some other peoples' barriers. Some can only get through one or two peoples' barriers.

It already works that way now. Making it harder for everyone to get through, will just make it harder for everyone to get through. It won't make the game any more fun, or playable, or realistic, or functional. If you don't want to be someone that people are always trying to get through your barrier, don't play a high-profile role. If you don't heed that advice, then you have to accept that some people will always be able to get through. And conversely - if you are keeping it up to prevent person "A" from getting through, you are very likely to prevent person B from getting through too. If you need to hear from person B, then you have to drop your barrier and hope person A isn't looking for your head at the moment.

Such is the nature of psionics in Zalanthas. I don't think it's a problem, I don't think it needs to be improved, I don't think that improving it WILL improve it.

So by your own admission 5 contacts attempts is more than sturdy enough even for those who do have the coded advantages on their side?


The difference between 5 and 1 attempts is almost negligible, considering you can spam contact someone 10 times and not worry about your stun.

[Ouroboros]

If you don't want to be someone that people are always trying to get through your barrier, don't play a high-profile role. If you don't heed that advice, then you have to accept that some people will always be able to get through. And conversely - if you are keeping it up to prevent person "A" from getting through, you are very likely to prevent person B from getting through too. If you need to hear from person B, then you have to drop your barrier and hope person A isn't looking for your head at the moment.

I'm not seeing how high-profile roles or a reiteration of how barrier's supposed to work has anything to do with how ineffective it is or isn't. This isn't a purely situational issue that only affects a small percentage of the population, it's a discussion on whether a feature is working as intended or at the very least, presented.

The opinion being shared here is that master barrier stacked up against master contact doesn't prove effective in any meaningful way. You can argue that's not your experience, though myself and others have had a different experience. Arguing the usefulness or intended mechanics of the command though has little to do with this discussion. Someone's master barrier being broken in one or two tries simply doesn't seem like much of a barrier, regardless of whether you're playing a high-profile role, a loner, a villain or a hero. You might certainly be more or less annoyed by barrier's ineffectiveness depending on the role you're in, but whether you're a little annoyed or very annoyed with a problem doesn't make it less of one.

The fact is that when you're activating your barrier, you're doing so with the desire to not be contacted by anyone, regardless of the reasons or frequency of this. Someone incredibly skilled and/or very persistent perhaps should be able to break through, sure. But what some of the poster's experience (mine included) seems to indicate, is that this happens far too easily and frequently for it to be functioning as intended or desired.

Making it harder for everyone to get through, will just make it harder for everyone to get through. It won't make the game any more fun, or playable, or realistic, or functional.

Er... Well, some of us (30 of us so far) are saying otherwise. Specifically, that making it harder to break through barriers will not only make the notion of a barrier more realistic, but will in fact improve our gameplay experience. Why it will improve it varies greatly, but the common ground for all reasons is that it will at least be a functioning barrier that will have a better chance of closing you off to communication. That being the desired goal every time you throw up a barrier, and that goal failing every time that barrier is crushed by another, regardless of the IC specifics in any given instance.