Is barrier effective enough?

[Qzzrbl]

Because I haven't plugged this thread regarding The Way nearly enough this year.

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,34854.0.html

[Drayab]

I like the idea of simply lowering the non-psion skill cap for contact to advanced.

[Delirium]

The benefit to a nigh-unbreakable barrier for the commonfolk: "I can't find his mind, he must have it walled off" would make a lot more sense.

It would no longer be codespeak for "meh, I've tried five times so he must be offline. Time to go loot his apartment!"

[Twilight]

Just change barrier.  Make it so that a successful contact through a barrier doesn't "break" it, it penetrates it.  On the barrier'd person side, make it so you could have a chance of seeing the person's sdesc that penetrates your barrier (a chance, like 10%), with no chance of seeing a Psi's sdescs.  On the flip side, if you penetrate someone's barrier, you don't get to see their sdesc, you only get to see "someone".

So...

You penetrate someone's barrier!

psi Gonna kill you fool

You send to someone, "gonna kill you fool"

And...

Someone penetrates your barrier!
or
The stone-cold killer penetrates your barrier!

You suffer from use of the way.  (barrier is still up, effective against anyone that hasn't penetrated it)

And if you wanted to be really tricky, make expel work so that it would work to try to bring down the barrier you have penetrated by contacting them.

[Kismetic]

It's been said a billion times, and it makes the most sense:  replace a foreign presence with the person's sdesc.  Now, every sneaky, twinky mothereffer who was abusing the code's natural (and unexplainable) anonymity now has to rethink that method as a strategy.  And militia and the like who don't care about being found out?  Now, it's a legitimate strategy to suss out whether you're on the move.

Code Select Expand

Your psionic barrier is crushed!
The plasticine, pretty boy templar contacts your mind.

The plasticine, pretty boy templar sends you a telepathic message:
"I'll be seein' ya real soon.  You can't hide forever."

You sense the plasticine, pretty boy templar withdraw from your mind.

That last part there has the added benefit of making multi-Way conversations a billion times less confusing and a hassle.  And really, do those two minor changes take away ANYTHING from the psionicists?  And if you do this, you really don't need to change barrier.  People will be a lot more careful who they contact, even going as far as using "contact tall.amos" and "contact tressy.talia", at least, one might think.

[Drayab]

I think that's a fine idea as well, but I like the reduced cap idea more. Besides making it easier to stay hidden as a sneaky type, I like the idea of psionic communication being tricky for the average person. Thinking about it logically (armchair fantasy logic), it seems like it ought to be way, way easier to shield/hide your own mind than to reach out across the Known and bust down other people's mental barrier, flawlessly transmit your own thoughts into their head, and also learn what they look like.

[TillForPie]

I think that's a fine idea as well, but I like the reduced cap idea more. Besides making it easier to stay hidden as a sneaky type, I like the idea of psionic communication being tricky for the average person. Thinking about it logically (armchair fantasy logic), it seems like it ought to be way, way easier to shield/hide your own mind than to reach out across the Known and bust down other people's mental barrier, flawlessly transmit your own thoughts into their head, and also learn what they look like.

And all without them being able to do the same to you.

[Armaddict]

...even when barrier is being crushed, part of the whole point of it is that you can sense it.

At least in the 'keeping secrets secret' sense.

[Drayab]

Well, it is good for that, but it's functioning more as a warning mechanism than an actual barrier in that case.

Kind of like saying that your front door is useful because the police make a lot of noise breaking it down.

[Armaddict]

Considering that most people make minimal effort at building up that defense, I'd consider that okay.

You guys are asking for the steel door of fort knox for little to no reason.  Contact is used commonly.  Barrier is not.  If you're in a situation where security of your mind and conversations is of utmost importance, treat it that way.  It becomes more manageable, more effective, and when it fails, it is a surefire sign that now is not the time to discuss such matters.

Particularly after you notice a few things, through the experience.

Barrier is fine.  It works -very- well for those who want it to work well.  I'm not sure where this came from, even.  In all my time on Arm, there's been a total of one time where I found a weakness to barrier, and I don't think it has been discussed here (nor should it be).

[Molten Heart]

What if barrier provided some kind of warning before it broke.  Something like:

You feel pressure on your psionic barrier.

This would let you know someone was knocking on your barrier and that it might be coming down soon.

[Delirium]

Automatically showing sdescs on contact would absolutely screw over psionicists and so I don't think that's the solution.

Now, if there were a chance that the sdesc would show, dependant on various factors, I could get behind that.

[TillForPie]

Automatically showing sdescs on contact would absolutely screw over psionicists and so I don't think that's the solution.

Now, if there were a chance that the sdesc would show, dependant on various factors, I could get behind that.

Or just make it so that only psionicists could hide their sdesc when contacting. Maybe even give them the ability to send messages without revealing their sdesc at higher skill levels.

[Potaje]

It's been said a billion times, and it makes the most sense:  replace a foreign presence with the person's sdesc.  Now, every sneaky, twinky mothereffer who was abusing the code's natural (and unexplainable) anonymity now has to rethink that method as a strategy.  And militia and the like who don't care about being found out?  Now, it's a legitimate strategy to suss out whether you're on the move.

Code Select Expand

Your psionic barrier is crushed!
The plasticine, pretty boy templar contacts your mind.

The plasticine, pretty boy templar sends you a telepathic message:
"I'll be seein' ya real soon.  You can't hide forever."

You sense the plasticine, pretty boy templar withdraw from your mind.

That last part there has the added benefit of making multi-Way conversations a billion times less confusing and a hassle.  And really, do those two minor changes take away ANYTHING from the psionicists?  And if you do this, you really don't need to change barrier.  People will be a lot more careful who they contact, even going as far as using "contact tall.amos" and "contact tressy.talia", at least, one might think.

+1

I like this idea, If the presence enters and withdraws from your mind it would make sense you'r mind would likely identify that presence, unless the presence has a means to mask themselves. Which on a mundane I would not think is possible. And i agree it would make sense that you would know who of the two or more people in your mind have withdrawn because you would not feel their presence there any longer, not simply some presence is no longer there.

However, I would like to know staff's reasoning, if there was any, behind why a person could not tell the identity of an intruding presence.

Or is this just a piece of dated code, that has not been reconsidered over these many years?

[Twilight]

Automatically knowing who it is that contacted you is a bad idea.  There are some things that this would impact that shouldn't be impacted.

Having a chance to know who it is, if you are actively trying to keep people from your mind, that I could get behind.

[RogueGunslinger]

Automatically knowing who it is that contacted you is a bad idea.  There are some things that this would impact that shouldn't be impacted.

Like what? I'm having a hard time figuring out why you would contact someone and leave without saying anything, unless you were checking to see if they were online or alive.

[Twilight]

Can't say.

[Drayab]

Considering that most people make minimal effort at building up that defense, I'd consider that okay.

Nobody is complaining that novice level barrier is weak. That not many people seem to be using it could also be taken as evidence that it's too weak because (1) maybe you don't notice other people's barrier breaking because it breaks so damn easily or (2) a lot of people don't bother with it because it's a lot of work to develop a weak skill. I know that I have had master level barrier on several characters and have not found it to be useful for what its name would imply.

You guys are asking for the steel door of fort knox for little to no reason. 

I think there are plenty good reasons to weaken contact.

• Reduce metagaming abuses, like checking if a raider is online before going hunting.
• Allow sneakies to better hide their online status from enforcers.
• Make 'offensive' psionics like sdesc sniffing something only for psionists.
• Make the psionics mechanics more believable by reducing one's influence in other people's mind while strengthening influence in your own.

Contact is used commonly.  Barrier is not.

I don't know how you can know this without being on staff. I know that I use it. Do you not use it yourself?

If you're in a situation where security of your mind and conversations is of utmost importance, treat it that way.  It becomes more manageable, more effective, and when it fails, it is a surefire sign that now is not the time to discuss such matters.

Particularly after you notice a few things, through the experience.

I can't argue with this modus operandi, but this particular situation is not the one I think would be helped by lowering the contact cap. This situation would be made less annoying, perhaps, but more importantly, I think there other situations would become possible which currently are flimsy or untenable.

Barrier is fine.  It works -very- well for those who want it to work well.  I'm not sure where this came from, even.  In all my time on Arm, there's been a total of one time where I found a weakness to barrier, and I don't think it has been discussed here (nor should it be).

Speak for yourself.  

[Armaddict]

Lowering the contact cap is fine, though as I recall, there was a similar thread to this demanding that contact be made easier a few years back.  Newbie contact was raised as result, IF I RECALL CORRECTLY.  I think lowering it would have people wondering why they can't one shot contact across the known anymore and the tediousness of it and etc and etc.  But for the record, I think that's fine.  Also, and I may be completely out of line here, but I believe that skill caps on psionic skills are determined differently than just a simple 'Make it lower for mundanes'.  I think.  I could be wrong here.

What I was more addressing was the all around message of barrier being useless, when I've had very good experiences with it...on the characters that actually had a reason to demand it.

As far as metagaming purposes...I don't even know what to say to those sort of accusations. Get mad at enemies for finding out your online all you like, but I kinda -like- having friends being able to tell when I'm on.  Sneakies having a hard time because an enforcer knows they're online?  -Really-? Regardless, if I recall, I thought there was mention of those things working as intended.

[Drayab]

Sneakies having a hard time because an enforcer knows they're online?  -Really-? Regardless, if I recall, I thought there was mention of those things working as intended.

It's all about the element of surprise. 

[RogueGunslinger]

Armaddict you're missing the point. I think Barrier is useful for other things too, but for it's documented, intended purpose, which this thread is supposed to be about? Just no, it doesn't. Barrier isn't nearly good enough against equal levels of contact.

Nobody is saying barrier is useless. We're saying it's useless at keeping people out of your mind when they want to contact you. All someone has to do is spam it about 5 times and bam, they're in. I too, don't give a shit about meta-game issues, which is why I directed the poll and thread to specifically address Barriers INTENDED/DOCUMENTED use. There's a whole 'nother thread that deals with the Way as a whole.

Saying you like having your friends get a hold of you is completely beside the point, because you already have that option by NOT using barrier. Wheres the option of having your friends/enemies not find you? Currently it doesn't exist because barrier is too weak.

[Patuk]

Lowering the contact cap is fine, though as I recall, there was a similar thread to this demanding that contact be made easier a few years back.  Newbie contact was raised as result, IF I RECALL CORRECTLY.  I think lowering it would have people wondering why they can't one shot contact across the known anymore and the tediousness of it and etc and etc.  But for the record, I think that's fine.  Also, and I may be completely out of line here, but I believe that skill caps on psionic skills are determined differently than just a simple 'Make it lower for mundanes'.  I think.  I could be wrong here.

What I was more addressing was the all around message of barrier being useless, when I've had very good experiences with it...on the characters that actually had a reason to demand it.

As far as metagaming purposes...I don't even know what to say to those sort of accusations. Get mad at enemies for finding out your online all you like, but I kinda -like- having friends being able to tell when I'm on.  Sneakies having a hard time because an enforcer knows they're online?  -Really-? Regardless, if I recall, I thought there was mention of those things working as intended.

Okay, so, for the record..

If you make barrier stronger without weakening contact, people can go about with barriers that are actually effective without said barriers being breakable by everyone and their mother who's lived past an OOC month.

Likewise, buffing barrier doesn't make it harder for your friends to notice you being online; it'd only do so if you actually had a raised barrier.

And yes, enforcers knowing you're online does make it harder for a sneaky to do anything. Even in playing a sneaky for a relatively short time, I found that everytime something went only slightly awry, half the city's militia and knights in shining armor would be all over you, waying you that X had happened and you should show up to make sure you weren't involved.

[Kismetic]

Automatically showing sdescs on contact would absolutely screw over psionicists and so I don't think that's the solution.

Absolutely screw over, or make an 8 karma guild harder to learn?  Hmm.  ...  I'm positive we need this code change to make sense of the gameworld.

[Timetwister]

Or you know you could make it so psions are the only ones who can contact undetected. How does that screw them over?

[Cabooze]

Or you know you could make it so psions are the only ones who can contact undetected. How does that screw them over?

The tall mundane man contacts your mind

think "yeah alright no big deal"

A foreign presence contacts your mind

think "OH FUCK"


Something like that?