Why cant skills be taught to others

[kiddgoth]

Just a question that has been buggin the fek out of me, why are there no teachers on Zalanthas? No one that teaches or trainers skills why cant a PC warrior teach his PC ranger buddy the skill of disarm to a certain extent. Or why cant a assassin teach a warrior the skill of backstab? To me it would open up a world of variant skills within each class and PC's would become more diverse. I mean it wouldnt be easy you still would have to find a teacher willing to instruct you, you would still be monitored by the Imm's for proper rping when training I just think it would take this game to another level of realism. What do you all think?

[Rindan]

The simple answer?  It would royally suck to run into a back stabbing, sneaking, listening, poisoning, walking terror of doom with warrior skills.  You might as well just hand out magikers to anyone who wants one.  It isn't so much balance, it is the entire trust aspect.  Super powerful characters and hard to play characters are limited by karma for a reason.  If you want a backstabbing warrior, then the limit you are going to run into is that you are going to need to justify it through RP training and justify it to an imm.  Simply put, no one wants to see such characters running around causing hell.  If you want something so terribly bad ass as a back stabbing poisoning warrior, you just need to special app it.

[Silent Bob]

Are you saying a ranger cant learn parry or kick?

[Kankman]

[quote = "Silent Bob"]
Are you saying a ranger cant learn parry or kick?
[/quote]

Considering the words "ranger" "parry" and "kick" were not used in Rindan's post, I find it unlikely that is what he was saying.

[Silent Bob]

So are you saying I can learn these things?  So if I was an elephant named Dumbo and I flapped my ears very hard I might fly, just not very high off the ground.  

[flurry]

You can teach people who have an aptitude to learn what you're teaching them.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Are you saying a ranger cant learn parry or kick?

Exceptional rangers are able to move silently and remain unseen in the wilderness, detect sounds from far away, work with poisons, and parry enemy blows.

Thugs are well-used to the use of brute force, able to effectively kick an opponent in combat, as well as how to effectively knock out a target.  However, they also know how to take to their heels when needed.

[Koala]

I really wonder how a crafting skill can be acquired although in the beginning you do not have the skill. I mean, a skill that you do not have a backgrouond and cannot start to train by yourself. For example, a mercenary have knife making ability but not swords or any other weapon. Also he cannot even try to craft any weapon other than knife. So he will have no chance to learn it, no chance to have a proper background.

Now we return to the question: How can someone start to learn a crafting skill that he doesn't know already. Can it be just by observing someone who is crafting, or what?

[mansa]

There has been some cases, in the past, of characters learning other skills that aren't possible with their subclass/guild combination.  Characters who didn't get 'set up' before hand, either, as a special app.

I know of one 'merchant' character, who after -In Character- Years of study got the basics of a weapon skill.  And I know others who haven't.

It takes -years- and -years- of study to learn if this thing is something you can get good at.

One of the main reasons why the 'subclasses' went into the game is because people wanted to have skills that they normally wouldn't start with.


It has been done before.  There was a lot of justification and lots of logs.  And there was a constant stream of communication between the immortals and the characters involved.  If you want to go about doing this, expect it to take 3 Real Life months to get it done, in game.

If you want your character to have it at the start, try a special app.

[Sanvean]

Now we return to the question: How can someone start to learn a crafting skill that he doesn't know already. Can it be just by observing someone who is crafting, or what?

Are you asking this in regards to real life or the game?

In the game, code-wise, you pick up skills through the branching system - as you become good at some skills, others appear on your skill tree. Initially they are at very low levels, and with time/experience, you become better at them, in turn leading to others. Usually there is some attempt at logical progression - for example, becoming good at tanning leads to acquiring the leatherworking skill, if you are a merchant. Sometimes the logic is less easy to decipher, depending on what sort of leaps we had to make to justify the new skill.

In the game, non-code-wise, the logic with most of the crafting skills is that you have either already learned a related craft and are ready to branch out, or that it's related to some other skill. Mercenaries use weapons a lot, and often see a number of different styles of such - so they may have some rudimentary ideas of how to make one, in terms of what's important, the concepts of balance, reach, etc.

As far as the subguild skills go, yes, they've intended to reflect skills you had acquired before making the magickal transition from virtual entity to PC.

Why can't all guilds learn all skills? Because it's a game, with strategies and choices. Because we're diku based, and that structure shapes our code. Because we want to keep the game balanced. It might be possible to come up with a complex system where you allot points to different skill trees - certainly other code bases have such. But it would be a pretty big and complex change, and right now the system we have seems to work well. From time to time new skills get added, or shifted around, or tweaked in one way or another, but I doubt that the basic structure will change. Hope that helps.

[kiddgoth]

Ok..ok I get it, people cant be trusted to not abuse being able to learn any and all skills.. :roll: .... What about this insted what if when you created your character you have one open skill slot that could be trained at a later time in your characters life? Say a merchant that travels with a ranger body guard decides he wants to learn how to hide in the wild incase he is ever seperated from the caravan and needs to hide to save his life he begins to train under the ranger until he gets the skill on his list it would let the individual slightly customize his character as he grows in life and since it is only one skill slot it isnt going to unbalance the game as I think about it training the new skill is going to take time away from training your others so its a trade off anyways.

Anyhoo just an idea...Peace

Say a merchant that travels with a ranger body guard decides he wants to learn how to hide in the wild incase he is ever seperated from the caravan and needs to hide to save his life he begins to train under the ranger until he gets the skill on his list ...

Well, this situation does sound like a pretty good nominee for the "log it and submit to the MUD account and hope and pray"

That said, not all skills are created equal. Trading stonecrafting for hide unbalances a character. To use a more extreme example... cooking vs. parry. Parry is a much more exclusive and "valuable" skill than cooking is. Cooking is common, and not very difficult. So your idea  about the "one missing skill slot" would have to take into account the overall "value" of the skill, so that you would have to lose something like poison to get parry or somesuch.

[CindyLou]

First of all, riding is a skill that anyone can learn, even if it's not on your skill list. There are a couple of skills like that. A trip to the documents and help files for various skills can be a big help to you on that.

Second of all..we have a karma system. It exists for a reason, so that people who have -earned- the right to create characters with involved skills can do so. We also have special applications, in which you can ask to have special things/qualities/skills/personalities/etc.

I personally would not want to have to deal with a newbie to the game who just happens to get lucky and lives 20 or 30 "playing days," and is able to add a whiran spell to his warrior character. In fact, I don't think I'd like to deal with a veteran who gets that either, for that matter.

Furthermore, as Sanvean pointed out, the system works as it is, people who play Arm for any length of time pretty much love the system, which is the second reason why they stick around in the first place. The first is the RP, which in my opinion is unmatched.

It sounds like you just want a skill that doesn't come with the skillset you picked. Ya know what? EVERYONE wants a skill that doesn't come with the skillset they picked. And everyone else lives with it just fine, and experiments with new skillsets in their next character. I think it's a great reason to have permanent death: so you CAN experiment with new skills. Just not all with the same character.

Finally, and I sincerely mean this to -not- be a flame: it would be REALLY helpful for people who wish to read your posts, if you would use punctuation. A 15-line sentence just kinda causes the brain to melt.

[kiddgoth]

Just to point out I dont think spells should be able to be learned unless you have that ability to channel the elements, which I believe you are born with (correct me if I am wrong) but any of the other skills could realistically be learned or taught. Opps my bad about the punctuation.!?

CindyLou wrote:

I personally would not want to have to deal with a newbie to the game who just happens to get lucky and lives 20 or 30 "playing days," and is able to add a whiran spell to his warrior character. In fact, I don't think I'd like to deal with a veteran who gets that either, for that matter.

[Bestatte]

Also don't forget Kiddgoth, there are a TON of skills that your character can have, that don't appear on the list when you start out. They branch once you become adept at your already-existing skills.

I'll make up an example that as far as I know has NO truth, so I won't be spilling any mechanics beans:

We'll take the fluffbunny class. It comes with the basketweaving, flirting, pretending-to-listen-while-actually-ignoring-you-and-just-nodding-her-head-politely,, and giggling skills.

Now you decide you want to focus on your giggling skill. You become famous as "the mad giggler."

After two weeks of giggling your fluffy flirtatious nodding-but-not-listening ass off, you'll notice that your skills list now includes the facemaking AND the swooning skills!

I'm telling ya - whatever "makes sense" for your character's "guild/subguild" to have, WILL have. Just maybe not immediately, and probably not even in your character's lifetime because most characters die before they get a chance to branch those neato extra skills that didn't show up when they started.

Hope that helps!

[Sanvean]

Just to point out I dont think spells should be able to be learned unless you have that ability to channel the elements, which I believe you are born with (correct me if I am wrong) but any of the other skills could realistically be learned or taught.

And I repeat:

Why can't all guilds learn all skills? Because it's a game, with strategies and choices. Because we're diku based, and that structure shapes our code. Because we want to keep the game balanced. It might be possible to come up with a complex system where you allot points to different skill trees - certainly other code bases have such. But it would be a pretty big and complex change, and right now the system we have seems to work well. From time to time new skills get added, or shifted around, or tweaked in one way or another, but I doubt that the basic structure will change. Hope that helps.

[Silent Bob]

Well people in the game keep trying to teach me kick and twice now I get the message you dont have the background and it makes me think I suck as a ranger.

[CindyLou]

No, it just means that rangers don't "come with" the kick skill. It's possible that you'll branch that skill eventually but until you do, you won't have it, and it won't be able to be taught to you.