Shadow Artist Reformation

[Molten Heart]

So the end result of any pull against ANY member of the Legion is this:

"Faithful Lord, there was a lot of... fecal matter thrown around in my apartment."

"... Somebody must not like you."

Next day...

"Faithful Lord, somebody used fecal matter to draw a picture of an inix kanking a person."

"You are really pissing people off."

That's basically the extent of what can be done to the Legion, right? You can't have them beaten, maimed, threatened... nothing physically harming, but you can mentally scar them by ruining their apartment.

One can always just break the law and kill them.  A skilled shadow artist could possibly pull this off without getting caught, but finding one willing to break the law and loyal enough might not be as easy.

[Quirk]

Perhaps the Artisan caste could be folded in with Commoners?

I understand some of Ouroboros' concerns here, to be honest. I see Tuluk historically as having had a theme of appreciation of beauty, at least as a veneer over what lies beneath, and there being a notion that art in some measure outweighed mere politics; the bardic circles get to retain a certain neutrality because their art, and capacity to move the emotions of the citizenry through it, is respected by all parties.

The Artisan caste made sense in that context. It wasn't meant for workaday crafters, however skilled, but for those who were considered artists. Bards were a well fleshed out example of such artists. The existence of other such artists was left implied. Also, the notion that theft or killing could be art and the perpetrator respected rather than punished rested heavily on the general Tuluki respect for art.

I think perhaps some of the reason that artists in general were not more heavily fleshed out was the difficulty in reconciling them with Kadius. The existence of an organisation which employs most of the top decorative artisans was somewhat at odds with a model in which such artists were put on a pedestal; it was unclear how that would work, and whether it would give Kadius a gigantic cultural weight to throw around.

Maybe the theme needs re-examined. It seems hard though to justify a caste for artists which includes shadow artists, who're merely the fringe beneficiaries of a wider love for art, and not, for instance, the sculptors of public artworks. I feel some rearrangement may be necessary to have things make sense.

[Nyr]

I've gone over the chart as well as the hierarchy doc to identify current areas of confusion as it has come up again.  I made the following changes to the hierarchy doc:

• If a subcategory or sub-caste or division or whatever was called "caste" before, it has been changed to "sub-caste" to reduce confusion over what a caste is.
• The section for Artisans now reads differently, explaining what Tuluki-specific artisans are and why that is specific to its own sub-caste.  There's no more "elite of the other two sub-castes" in the wording.

I plan to also move all bardic folks to the artisan category to be with their higher-ranked bard buddies.  This will take longer to do, though, so it's not done yet.  I understand what was being done with it before, but I think it has contributed to more confusion than not.

Now that that is done, points of clarification:

There are only four castes.

Templar
Noble
Commoner
Slave

The artisan sub-caste (still might change the name of that, but it fits okay) now only references the two Tuluki-specific professions (shadow artists and bards of poets' circle).  Material artisans/crafters/whatnot of any level (being a world-wide thing, not something specific to Tuluk) would have social rank based on whatever organization they are a part of or affiliated with.

Each sub-caste is (for the most part) a division meant to categorize the people in that group.  It is not an actual caste.  The castes that matter in caste division are the four castes above.

Maybe that will make more sense?  I'll make more changes as I have time but I don't have any more right now to make changes.  I'll update later.

[Jherlen]

At the end of the day, whether GMH Employee Amos has a higher social standing than Winrothol Servant Talia or Byn Sergeant Malik is going to come down to the IC opinion of a PC templar anyway, right? Social standing is full of nuance: who is richer, more popular, has more important friends, is on better terms with the law, etc. I hope we don't all start taking the caste chart too literally to the point we don't leave room for grey areas and opinions, because that'd be a shame.

[ShaLeah]

At the end of the day, whether GMH Employee Amos has a higher social standing than Winrothol Servant Talia or Byn Sergeant Malik is going to come down to the IC opinion of a PC templar anyway, right? Social standing is full of nuance: who is richer, more popular, has more important friends, is on better terms with the law, etc. I hope we don't all start taking the caste chart too literally to the point we don't leave room for grey areas and opinions, because that'd be a shame.

Co-rrect.  Plenty of times my commoner X has gotten out of shit all because of favor.

[Quirk]

Maybe that will make more sense?

I think it's moving in a good direction. I do wonder if the commonalities between Shadow Artists and Bards, beyond them being Tuluk-specific, are sufficient to lump them into the same subcaste, but I think both have reasons to be treated as special cases - the influence of the Circles in one case and the closeness to the templarate in the other.

Broadly, I'd like to voice strong support for the way this has been carried out start to finish. Normally when I post it's to question some aspect I'm not sure I'm happy with, or propound an opinion. I feel concerned about coming across as critical.

I think that the way this has been introduced, with an initial version put out to be picked at, and player worries then listened to and addressed, has been excellent. I very much appreciate the time and effort that's being put into this and feel that it's going to result in a better system and one players are happier with. Thanks for doing it this way.

[bcw81]

Personal opinion here:

I think you're taking the idea of "independent artist" too seriously, Ouroboros. Artistry of that nature is handled by the Bardic Circle to begin with, and the last time I checked, there were documents stating how if a bard of the Circle caught wind of a non-affiliated bard doing anything like that, they would make sure said non-affiliated bard had a 'bad day'.

Being a bard does not restrict you to song and dance. In fact, they have "arcs of learning" which range from swordplay to singing and dancing. That said, it does not have 'painting' or 'statue making'. (Which I personally think it should.)

Arcs of Learning

Bards achieve the status of Master Bard by mastering what are called the Arcs of Learning. Each Arc represents a basic area of knowledge, and a Master Bard will be skilled in each of the following:

Arc of Music: To master the Arc of Music, a bard must be able to play and create a musical instrument from each of the three major types: percussion, wind, and stringed.
Arc of Song: To master the Arc of Song, a bard must know the standard repertoire of songs, as well as being able to compose an impromptu song on any topic when challenged to do so.
Arc of Words: To master the Arc of Words, a bard must know the standard repertoire of stories, from the humorous to the historical, as well as being able to compose such. They must also have mastered the intricacies of Tuluki ettiquette, the gentle art of diplomacy, and speak at least one language beyond sirihish fluently.
Arc of Acting: To master the Arc of Acting, a bard must know the basics of the theater: performing, costuming, mimicry, make-up, and crowd-control. Traditionally, a bard must have performed a central role in at least one major theatrical performance.
Arc of Lore: To master the Arc of Lore, a bard must know both the history and geography of Zalanthas thoroughly, as well as demonstrate in-depth knowledge of at least one other area of specialized learning, such as herb-lore, a crafting skill, animal-training, etc.
Arc of Blades: To master the Arc of Blades, a bard must demonstrate her or himself competent with at least one weapon.

[Ouroboros]

Each sub-caste is (for the most part) a division meant to categorize the people in that group.  It is not an actual caste.  The castes that matter in caste division are the four castes above. Maybe that will make more sense?  I'll make more changes as I have time but I don't have any more right now to make changes.  I'll update later.

What might be throwing off the sense of equality among sub-castes within a caste is the fact that in the Faithful caste, the Exalted sub-caste is socially superior to the Templar sub-caste. Consolidating those two into one, especially since there's no actual overlap in rank between them (Precentor > Illuminated), might drive the point home about all Commoner sub-castes being equal. Changing the name of the Commoner caste or sub-caste so that it's not the same, might also simplify complications. Just a suggestion, as personally it doesn't bother me much.

I think you're taking the idea of "independent artist" too seriously, Ouroboros.

Possibly, sure. Being one myself probably lends its bias. Quirk however seemed to understand what my real issue is, and it has more to do with the image of Tuluk and less to do with what a PC's score lists under clan. I've discussed it and length already though, Nyr has weighed in, and I don't think it's productive for me to continue. I'll summarize it this way though and perhaps it'll make sense: My concern is less about the value of an independent artist and more about the value of an artist independently. Hope that helps.

Artistry of that nature is handled by the Bardic Circle to begin with, and the last time I checked, there were documents stating how if a bard of the Circle caught wind of a non-affiliated bard doing anything like that, they would make sure said non-affiliated bard had a 'bad day'. Being a bard does not restrict you to song and dance. In fact, they have "arcs of learning" which range from swordplay to singing and dancing. That said, it does not have 'painting' or 'statue making'. (Which I personally think it should.)

No, artistry of that nature isn't handled by the Bardic Circle, even if individual bards have sometimes dabbled in it. They do certainly have arcs of learning, but they revolve around aspects of Culture and Performing Arts, not Art. Art refers specifically to visual arts, whereas the Arts as a term encompass all creative endeavors (including literary arts and performance arts, which the Bards focus on). You might think the Bardic Circle should dominate art as well, others might disagree (as I would), but that's irrelevant to what they actually do focus on. If this -was- to be handled through the Bardic Circle, then it would at the very least warrant the addition of a new circle dedicated to visual arts alone, without forcing them to have to sing and dance as well just to be recognized as painters. But that would make for a rather odd Circle.

This might also help...

An artisan or artizan (from French: artisan, Italian: artigiano) or craftsman (craftsperson) is a skilled manual worker who makes items that may be functional or strictly decorative, including furniture, sculpture, clothing, jewellery, household items and tools or even machines such as the handmade devices of a watchmaker. Artisans practice a craft and may through experience and aptitude reach the expressive levels of an artist.

Emphasis mine. That last line, for me, alludes to the transition a common crafter to an accomplished artist. The difference between someone that sings well when they're drunk at the Tembo, and a Master Bard of the Circle. That's what I felt the documentation supported prior to it's change, and that's what I'm mourning now. But as Nyr said, the sky isn't falling. And it's a loss that few will even notice, much less care about.

[Taven]

Each sub-caste is (for the most part) a division meant to categorize the people in that group.  It is not an actual caste.  The castes that matter in caste division are the four castes above.

I like how things are changing based on feedback! 

I was curious on how a PC would ICly address the sub-caste distinctions. Would they call them "subcastes", or what would they do to describe the relative sub-rankings (for example, in a conversation)?

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I think that the way this has been introduced, with an initial version put out to be picked at, and player worries then listened to and addressed, has been excellent. I very much appreciate the time and effort that's being put into this and feel that it's going to result in a better system and one players are happier with. Thanks for doing it this way.

I agree 1000%.

In the future, please continue this habit. It isn't easy, I am sure, with all of the strong-minded people in our community, but I assure you that we appreciate it. So when it is feasible, please continue to offer us this level of participation in the creation of the systems that we will be playing in in the future of our magnificent game.

[BleakOne]

I'm pleased with the direction this is taking, and would just like to thank Nyr and the other staff involved for their hard work.

[Nyr]

As promised, I've updated the caste chart based on feedback.

Tuluki Caste Structure

I have also made changes to the Hierarchy document, as it had not been touched other than the historical changes I made earlier this year.

Tuluki Social Hierarchy



Changes:

• Removed the Exalted sub-caste from the Structure page as the distinction was implied rather than important in any way.  If you run into a Sun King, High Precentor, Inquisitor, or Precentor, you may feel free to shit your pants without concerning yourself about their sub-caste and whether it is a true distinction of their ranking.  I left the Exalted subheading for those individuals on the Hierarchy page, but updated it as well.
• Updated the end of the Hlum subheading on the Hierarchy page because it amused me.
• Changed the "Artisan" sub-caste to "Artist."
• Changed formatting on the "Merchant" subheading on the Hierarchy page, and elaborated on it a little more.
• Added Legions subheading on the Hierarchy page.  This never existed on the old caste chart page.
• Changed the "Commoner" sub-caste to "Other Commoners" to reduce confusion.  If you're in the "Common Caste," that's synonymous with being a Commoner.
• Made other formatting changes to the Hierarchy page.
• Added notes to the Structure page explaining how social status worked, particularly with partisans.

Some replies:

I was curious on how a PC would ICly address the sub-caste distinctions. Would they call them "subcastes", or what would they do to describe the relative sub-rankings (for example, in a conversation)?

They wouldn't.  These distinctions don't matter.  It's there for you (the player) to get a general idea of where someone is within a caste compared to another caste.

Historically speaking, they might have mattered before, but that chart wasn't on the main website until last week.  The old chart was referenced from time to time but it was hardly supported in that manner.  Better to bring it to the standards that exist now and leave it that way, in my view.

Possibly, sure. Being one myself probably lends its bias. Quirk however seemed to understand what my real issue is, and it has more to do with the image of Tuluk and less to do with what a PC's score lists under clan. I've discussed it and length already though, Nyr has weighed in, and I don't think it's productive for me to continue. I'll summarize it this way though and perhaps it'll make sense: My concern is less about the value of an independent artist and more about the value of an artist independently. Hope that helps.

Not to beat the dead horse too much more, but we haven't removed art from Tuluk; your concern is invalid.

No, artistry of that nature isn't handled by the Bardic Circle, even if individual bards have sometimes dabbled in it. They do certainly have arcs of learning, but they revolve around aspects of Culture and Performing Arts, not Art. Art refers specifically to visual arts, whereas the Arts as a term encompass all creative endeavors (including literary arts and performance arts, which the Bards focus on). You might think the Bardic Circle should dominate art as well, others might disagree (as I would), but that's irrelevant to what they actually do focus on. If this -was- to be handled through the Bardic Circle, then it would at the very least warrant the addition of a new circle dedicated to visual arts alone, without forcing them to have to sing and dance as well just to be recognized as painters. But that would make for a rather odd Circle.

If you want to create paintings and sculpt things, find someone that wants that done and work for them or engage in a partisanship agreement with them.

This might also help...

An artisan or artizan (from French: artisan, Italian: artigiano) or craftsman (craftsperson) is a skilled manual worker who makes items that may be functional or strictly decorative, including furniture, sculpture, clothing, jewellery, household items and tools or even machines such as the handmade devices of a watchmaker. Artisans practice a craft and may through experience and aptitude reach the expressive levels of an artist.

Emphasis mine. That last line, for me, alludes to the transition a common crafter to an accomplished artist. The difference between someone that sings well when they're drunk at the Tembo, and a Master Bard of the Circle. That's what I felt the documentation supported prior to it's change, and that's what I'm mourning now. But as Nyr said, the sky isn't falling. And it's a loss that few will even notice, much less care about.

The documentation supported that prior to the change and supports it now.  You're mourning something that hasn't died.  You can be a skilled manual worked who makes things that may be...blah blah blah...period.  You just won't (or are incredibly unlikely to) get any recognition in Tuluk for it if you're doing it on your own without support from a patron that wants it or from an employer that wants it.  If you didn't get there by dint of your birth, your affiliation, your employment, or partisanship, you're an independent commoner.  You're skilled, sure--you can "make everything" and you have "the expressive levels of an artist" and you can even probably submit unique mastercrafts to that effect.  However, you're still just an independent commoner.  You have social status, it is just the bottom of the barrel.  The stonecrafting/whatevers of the Akai Sjir have more status than you because their tribe would probably show up somewhere in that structure.  The sculptors of Kadius have more status than you because they are part of a GMH.  An anonymous painter partisan of Negean has more social status than you because they hitched their wagon to a Negean noble like a smart Tuluki and are getting bank for it.  A shitty southern crafter working for Salarr making flint arrowheads might even have more social status than you because they work for Salarr.

This was never about removing art and artwork or "artisans" or changing the definition of what that means.  It was a change on a chart and then a change in the page that explained what that chart meant in more detail.

[Jherlen]

I'm no art history major, but as I understand it even in the real world, many of the famous artists/composers/sculptors/etc of old had a patron of some sort that paid their bills while they produced their art. I can see that being even more of a necessity in Zalanthas, as the "starving artist" probably doesn't live very long otherwise. PCwise, a good artist who's independent and has no patron is probably going to find him/herself quickly inundated with offers for patronship, which they'd probably be foolish to decline. So where's the problem?

This is derailing a Shadow Artist thread, but maybe what we need is a Tuluki Art document, detailing how artists are viewed and admired, and what sort of artistic trends are seen in Tuluk to help guide roleplay. And while we're at it, we could make one for Allanak too! Believe it or not, 'nakkis also like art. As long as it has blood on it.

[Barsook]

+1 for the Tuluki Art doc

[Jingo]

Hey, Nyr. Just wondering if there is any added incentive to actually make use of the system.

From my experience. Leadership players tend to avoid making very many big moves, especially in the tuluki environment. And moreover have a tendency to sit on their skilled assassins and end up doing nothing with them for fear of losing them, or whatever.

[BuNutzCola]

I'm really a terrible reference for Tuluki-related things. But as to the incentive posted above, possibly some marker those of a higher caste might carry that denotes how many times they have successfully used a shadow artist?

Maybe that defeats the purpose. But since it wouldn't signify on whom, or for what, who knows?

Kind of like those girls and guys in high school with them wristbands.....

[Cutthroat]

The old system was used, though arguably not often. I don't think it was because of a fear of losing assassins but there was a reluctance to go directly to assassination for situations that didn't really call for it. So you were stuck trying to use thieves and thugs in creative ways and risk the ire of the law for operations that would be considered illegal in the "thieves and assassins only" system. Now there is no fear and should be no reluctance because it is legal to deal with a situation in many non-lethal ways.

The incentive is essentially that there is no disincentive. But it will take players coming to grips with the idea that not every shadow artist has to be an assassin (or only an assassin), and embracing the various forms of thuggery that are now legal by playing such artists or hiring them more often, or (as commoners) using affiliation and the political atmosphere creatively to get what they want. It creates a whole new element to skull duggery in Tuluk and just requires players to participate.

[bcw81]

I'm sort of curious of this one fact, and I suppose it affected the old system too, but it's always weighed on my mind.

Say Assassin Talia goes and offs mark Amos. She does it silently, and everyone's happy.

Would Amos' best friend and sometimes lover Malik begrudge the assassin or the person who hired the mark? I mean, sure, this is definitely a character by character question, but the standard Tulukie would have had either one or the other answer engraved in their head from a young age. I'd imagine they'd begrudge the actual contractee, not the contractor, but that's just my take.

[ShaLeah]

I'm sort of curious of this one fact, and I suppose it affected the old system too, but it's always weighed on my mind.

Say Assassin Talia goes and offs mark Amos. She does it silently, and everyone's happy.

Would Amos' best friend and sometimes lover Malik begrudge the assassin or the person who hired the mark? I mean, sure, this is definitely a character by character question, but the standard Tulukie would have had either one or the other answer engraved in their head from a young age. I'd imagine they'd begrudge the actual contractee, not the contractor, but that's just my take.

I don't know if there should be general "everyone in Tuluk" feels this way. Completely character dependent. Some I've had wouldn't care, others would take out contracts on the contractor as well as the artist, the artist's mate, their songbird and a partridge in a pear tree.

Begrudge at will, according to your feelings place.

[Taven]

As promised, I've updated the caste chart based on feedback.

Tuluki Caste Structure

I have also made changes to the Hierarchy document, as it had not been touched other than the historical changes I made earlier this year.

Tuluki Social Hierarchy

Neat, looking good!

I was curious on how a PC would ICly address the sub-caste distinctions. Would they call them "subcastes", or what would they do to describe the relative sub-rankings (for example, in a conversation)?

They wouldn't.  These distinctions don't matter.  It's there for you (the player) to get a general idea of where someone is within a caste compared to another caste.

Historically speaking, they might have mattered before, but that chart wasn't on the main website until last week.  The old chart was referenced from time to time but it was hardly supported in that manner.  Better to bring it to the standards that exist now and leave it that way, in my view.

That's what I thought. So, a conversation wouldn't have subcaste, it would just have that the person would be more or less important to you and why... It might be helpful to add a bulletpoint below on the chart that says that subcaste is not an IC concept, as I can easily imagine newbies or people who have not read this thread using it ICly and thinking that is okay.

[Taven]

I'm sort of curious of this one fact, and I suppose it affected the old system too, but it's always weighed on my mind.

Say Assassin Talia goes and offs mark Amos. She does it silently, and everyone's happy.

Would Amos' best friend and sometimes lover Malik begrudge the assassin or the person who hired the mark? I mean, sure, this is definitely a character by character question, but the standard Tulukie would have had either one or the other answer engraved in their head from a young age. I'd imagine they'd begrudge the actual contractee, not the contractor, but that's just my take.

I don't know if there should be general "everyone in Tuluk" feels this way. Completely character dependent. Some I've had wouldn't care, others would take out contracts on the contractor as well as the artist, the artist's mate, their songbird and a partridge in a pear tree.

Begrudge at will, according to your feelings place.

I think that if the assassin did it silently and secretly, Malik probably would not know it was Talia anyway.

If Malik did know, I think that it might be up for personal interpretation. However, there are a LOT of shadow artists in Tuluk (NPCs and vNPCs also). Any of them could have gotten the job. Talia ended up with it, but that didn't mean she had anything against Amos. Would Malik know and appreciate that, or hate everyone who had anything to do with it?

Even if Malik did hate Talia, assuming she has accomplished a couple of jobs and is an Apprentice Shadow Artist, she is higher then everyone except other artsy people (bards and Shadow artists of equal or higher rank) and the Chosen and Faithful. Malik won't be easily be able to target her anyway, because even if he decides to have a grudge, the way social standing is set up, Talia is considered to be pretty rad.

[Nyr]

That's what I thought. So, a conversation wouldn't have subcaste, it would just have that the person would be more or less important to you and why... It might be helpful to add a bulletpoint below on the chart that says that subcaste is not an IC concept, as I can easily imagine newbies or people who have not read this thread using it ICly and thinking that is okay.

That bullet point is already there in the Hierarchy page but I can add it as a note for the chart.

[Molten Heart]

I'm sort of curious of this one fact, and I suppose it affected the old system too, but it's always weighed on my mind.

Say Assassin Talia goes and offs mark Amos. She does it silently, and everyone's happy.

Would Amos' best friend and sometimes lover Malik begrudge the assassin or the person who hired the mark? I mean, sure, this is definitely a character by character question, but the standard Tulukie would have had either one or the other answer engraved in their head from a young age. I'd imagine they'd begrudge the actual contractee, not the contractor, but that's just my take.

I agree, I'd say that there'd be more blame put on the contractor and none if any on the assassin.  The assassin is just a person doing their job, they have little to no control over who or what the target may be.   In a society like Tuluk, where the populace might think of themselves as a "builder" or "creator" culture, I think contractee would probably view an assassin as a tool that they are using to accomplish a task for the greater good (or at least that's what they might tell themselves).  The assassin, not caring (or trying not to care) who the mark is, is just going to focus on the when, where and how, not the who or the why.  I would think that most people would understand this.  Some might still get upset and blame anyone and everyone (assassins included), especially since emotions aren't rational.

[Malken]

Is there a possibility to "specialize" further as a Shadow Artist?

For example, let's say that I want to be a Shadow Artist but I'm a ranger/warrior/etc.. Could I tell the Templar that I would prefer to receive targets that are known to also often leave the walls?

[James de Monet]

I haven't read this whole thread, so please forgive me if this was discussed, but what happens if you catch an artist in the act? Do you torture them? For what? So they tell you who assigned them the contract? Now you have the name of a Templar. What's the play?

Can you go to said Templar and offer a reverse contract on the person who contracted against you? Would you have to know who it was, or could you just say you'd like to flip a (hurt/kill/shame) contract against you, and the Templar tells you the price? (And you're as surprised as everyone else when your neighbor Malik winds up dead)

Now what if the person who contracted on you was higher ranking than you are?

What's the practical way to get out of this long term, other than just trying to catch every artist they send?