Shadow Artist Reformation

[Jherlen]

As someone who was a large contributor to making the old Shadow Artist thread go 17 pages, I want to say, thanks staff! I dig the improvements, especially the fact that there seems to be more nuance and grey areas in the system now. Big kudos to Nyr in particular.

[Nyr]

You can now see everything pertinent from the old Caste chart on our website.

Tuluki Caste Structure -- just a visual resource
Tuluki Social Hierarchy -- meant to be used in combination with Caste Structure page
Tuluki Caste Tattoos -- resource for tattoos and their significance in Tuluk

[Lizzie]

Agree with Jherlen. I wasn't very optimistic at first because of the lack of "grey areas" in the restrictions. But now that there's just a smidge of wiggle-room in the wording, I think this could be a pretty interesting shift in the politics of Tuluk. Looking forward to seeing how this plays out!

[boog]

I am MUY excited. Squeaaal.

[Ourla]

I'm excited, too.  Now Tuluki players just have to start scraping up some deliciously fun conflict and start putting those artists to work. GO GO GO!

[boog]

I'm excited, too.  Now Tuluki players just have to start scraping up some deliciously fun conflict and start putting those artists to work. GO GO GO!

Yep. This is totally the ultimate in Tuluki subtlety at work.

Dem Tulukis are gettin' grittier.

[Malken]

I sense a whole bunch of new "gardener" and "baker" PCs popping up in Tuluk in the next few days.

[evilcabbage]

I sense a whole bunch of new "gardener" and "baker" PCs popping up in Tuluk in the next few days.

I'd be a hell of a lot more afraid of the mass of "lumberjack" PCs.

Also, there's a lot missing from the caste. Entry level employees, sure, but I remember the old chart (I think?) included the various other ranks in the Houses, like the cadets, the first hunters, the troopers, things like that.

[Ouroboros]

Sorry, hadn't caught up with this thread earlier.

I fixed the error on the addkeywords page.  The first page...meh.  I will talk to Morg and see what options we have.  There's definitely another page out there that has better looking tables...

Try this, Nyr. If it works for you, I've commented the source code so you can copy/paste the table itself into your site, or I can email it to you separately. It should still work if you're using a WYSIWYG editor and not editing the page itself, just switch to source editing and dump the table in as the content.

You had also omitted Artisans from the actual Artisan Caste. I added them back in case it was by accident, but you can remove them if that was intentional (though I hope it wasn't).

I can also send you a fix for the age table, if you like.

Also, there's a lot missing from the caste. Entry level employees, sure, but I remember the old chart (I think?) included the various other ranks in the Houses, like the cadets, the first hunters, the troopers, things like that.

No, it didn't. You can see the old chart here, and you'll note it's mostly identical.

[Nyr]

I will check it out later. It is not exactly a WYSIWYG editor though.

I removed artisans on purpose. There is no actual structural or social or caste backing for such a description as far as I can tell.

[Ouroboros]

I will check it out later. It is not exactly a WYSIWYG editor though.

Feel free to PM or email me any issues you have adding it in, if you want to add it of course, and I'll help as I can.

I removed artisans on purpose. There is no actual structural or social or caste backing for such a description as far as I can tell.

There's no formal structure, such as tattoos or clear paths of progress, but socially speaking recognized artisans have always had an elevated position. It's called the Artisan caste for a reason. As per the helpfile:

"The artisan caste consists of the elite of the other two common castes. Included in the artisan caste are master crafters, ranked Circle bards of Bard rank or above, extremely accomplished assassins and thieves with noble or templar partisanship and accomplished artisans of other disciplines that can show sufficient support."

Emphasis mine. If staff wants to flesh that out further and add some formal structure down the road, that'd be awesome. But I think elevated artisans should still be represented on the chart, even if a formal structure doesn't exist, and any PCs aspiring to such status can pursue it IG accordingly with staff's help. Just as they've always been able to do.

Just my two cents though.

[Molten Heart]

I sense a whole bunch of new "gardener" and "baker" PCs popping up in Tuluk in the next few days.

I hope so!  I could see many more possibilities...
Florist, chef, maid (who for some reason doesn't seem to ever be cleaning much, at least not in the traditional sense), valet, interpreter, wet nurse, etc all suddenly seem very playable occupation titles.

I've done the "gardener" bit.  That character was never hired to kill anyone but did manage to get a notable friend killed in a freak flashpowder accident/mixup.  He tried to set up an organized crime racket with his patron but it never took off and he eventually got a "real job" to liven things up.

IIRC one's status as registered thief and/or assassin was previously considered to be confidential.  With the new changes will one's staus as a shadow artist be public knowledge or will this still be considered confidential information?

[Nyr]

For the site stuff...thank you for the offer of help, but i think Morg can get it!

As for the artisan rank...since it is partially known as a category solely attainable by spamcrafting, that should be removed from that help file. If you are an accomplished artist of some Other discipline and can show significant support, then your supporter (patron or employer organization) should assign you an appropriate role in the rank structure.

There are other things that will change with this revision of the caste structure as well, and maybe artisan is not a good name for shadow artists and bards....but it works for a quick and dirty update to a chart that has not seen work in 4 years.

[Ouroboros]

As for the artisan rank...since it is partially known as a category solely attainable by spamcrafting, that should be removed from that help file.

Um... Those social ranks have nothing to do with skill ranks, Nyr. Being a Master Tailor in your skill lists doesn't make you a Master Artisan, any more than Master Backstab makes you a Master Shadow Artist, or Master Instrument Making makes you a Master Bard.

Such positions revolve around social influence, recognition, and achievements. A Master Artisan would be someone that has shown exceptional dedication and mastery over their art, well-past what any skilled crafter might. They would have produced for example public art installations, received the favor of high-ranking patrons, and overall proven themselves not just skilled, but patriotic assets to Tuluki Society. They would potentially have apprentices of their own, and so forth.

If you are an accomplished artist of some Other discipline and can show significant support, then your supporter (patron or employer organization) should assign you an appropriate role in the rank structure.

I assume you mean in that patron's or organization's rank structure. That, however, is an internal rank. The point isn't what the organization views you as, but what Society view you as. A Tuluki Master Artisan might be called a "Silver Chisel" by a Tenneshi Patron or "Head Stonecarver" by a Winrothol Patron, but their social status remains the same as far as Social Caste goes. That has to be represented somehow on the chart, and was until now.

Furthermore, those artisans who have elevated themselves enjoy the privileges afforded to them by their social status. A status equal to that of recognized bards and shadow artists, not equal to whatever a given crafter might be in a House. Those artists also don't have to be permanently attached to a given patron or organization, they could elevate themselves and their status through independent dedication to the city. Such individuals would be entirely unrepresented in the social structure you're presenting now.

There are other things that will change with this revision of the caste structure as well, and maybe artisan is not a good name for shadow artists and bards....but it works for a quick and dirty update to a chart that has not seen work in 4 years.

No, the Artisan Caste is not the ideal name for bards and shadow artists, once you remove actual artisans from their own caste. It fit perfectly fine though while it included them.

Frankly I'm both worried and upset at the way you're seemingly eliminating one of the corner-stones of Tuluki Society: it's artists. Art is woven into the very fabric of Tuluk, and you can see that everywhere you turn in the city. Murals are being painted, sculptures are being carved. And bards and artisans are the two most recognizable and socially respected "trades" of that culture.

Clearly you have some issues with crafter players and their "spamcrafting" but that's no reason to eliminate an entire aspect of an IC culture, especially if based on the fact you don't seem to comprehend it or appreciate it. But if you're planning on making the only formally recognized social caste Bards and your newly-revamped Shadow Artists, you're taking away a lot from the North and I can only hope someone else on staff can offer you perspective on this.

[Cutthroat]

As for the artisan rank...since it is partially known as a category solely attainable by spamcrafting, that should be removed from that help file.

Um... Those social ranks have nothing to do with skill ranks, Nyr. Being a Master Tailor in your skill lists doesn't make you a Master Artisan, any more than Master Backstab makes you a Master Shadow Artist, or Master Instrument Making makes you a Master Bard.

Such positions revolve around social influence, recognition, and achievements. A Master Artisan would be someone that has shown exceptional dedication and mastery over their art, well-past what any skilled crafter might. They would have produced for example public art installations, received the favor of high-ranking patrons, and overall proven themselves not just skilled, but patriotic assets to Tuluki Society. They would potentially have apprentices of their own, and so forth.

If you are an accomplished artist of some Other discipline and can show significant support, then your supporter (patron or employer organization) should assign you an appropriate role in the rank structure.

I assume you mean in that patron's or organization's rank structure. That, however, is an internal rank. The point isn't what the organization views you as, but what Society view you as. A Tuluki Master Artisan might be called a "Silver Chisel" by a Tenneshi Patron or "Head Stonecarver" by a Winrothol Patron, but their social status remains the same as far as Social Caste goes. That has to be represented somehow on the chart, and was until now.

Furthermore, those artisans who have elevated themselves enjoy the privileges afforded to them by their social status. A status equal to that of recognized bards and shadow artists, not equal to whatever a given crafter might be in a House. Those artists also don't have to be permanently attached to a given patron or organization, they could elevate themselves and their status through independent dedication to the city. Such individuals would be entirely unrepresented in the social structure you're presenting now.

There are other things that will change with this revision of the caste structure as well, and maybe artisan is not a good name for shadow artists and bards....but it works for a quick and dirty update to a chart that has not seen work in 4 years.

No, the Artisan Caste is not the ideal name for bards and shadow artists, once you remove actual artisans from their own caste. It fit perfectly fine though while it included them.

Frankly I'm both worried and upset at the way you're seemingly eliminating one of the corner-stones of Tuluki Society: it's artists. Art is woven into the very fabric of Tuluk, and you can see that everywhere you turn in the city. Murals are being painted, sculptures are being carved. And bards and artisans are the two most recognizable and socially respected "trades" of that culture.

Clearly you have some issues with crafter players and their "spamcrafting" but that's no reason to eliminate an entire aspect of an IC culture, especially if based on the fact you don't seem to comprehend it or appreciate it. But if you're planning on making the only formally recognized social caste Bards and your newly-revamped Shadow Artists, you're taking away a lot from the North and I can only hope someone else on staff can offer you perspective on this.

An artisan in the crafter sense is represented socially though, just not specifically for being an artisan. Either they are a partisan to someone (which would mean the standing of their patron affects their social standing), they are an employee of someone or a bard (which fits into the GMH employee/noble house employee/bard ranking part of the table), or they are independent (which makes them independent commoners).

I personally don't see the old issue being spamcrafting specifically, so much as it was being able to attain a high rank just by being recognized as being a crafter. Being a crafter shouldn't make you particularly special as an independent - the population of Zalanthas presumably covets clanned jobs, but this never necessarily translated completely to the PC population, when it should have - especially in Tuluk, which players see as being the easier place to be an independent, despite all the fun that can be had through affiliation.

And assuming that the social ranking allows for gradations within ranks (which in practice, it does), which creates a pecking order among peers, the system would theoretically allow for two independent artisans to be in competition for social status. The recent changes would seem to emphasize association with higher powers as a more desirable option for an independent than it used to be. There is more money in being independent, but there is more protection and fame in affiliation.

So, long story short, this is going to be better for concentrating PCs into clanned roleplay in Tuluk, which offers increased access to the kinds of plots players tend to say they can't find in Tuluk.

[Ouroboros]

An artisan in the crafter sense is represented socially though, just not specifically for being an artisan. Either they are a partisan to someone (which would mean the standing of their patron affects their social standing), they are an employee of someone or a bard (which fits into the GMH employee/noble house employee/bard ranking part of the table), or they are independent (which makes them independent commoners).

The average artisan is represented, yes, as an independent commoner. Their talent or recognition in being elevated into a higher caste however, isn't. As it stands, an artisan is either one of many (an independent commoner, at the bottom of the rung) or... Whatever rank they can achieve through strictly clan association, and only within that clan. At which point what they are doesn't really matter as much as what their clan ranks them as. They're not "Master Artisans", they're "Senior Employees of Noble House or Templarate", no different than any non-Artisan senior employees in the Commoner caste. They receive no recognition from society for being what they are though, only what their organizational associations rank them as.

I personally don't see the old issue being spamcrafting specifically, so much as it was being able to attain a high rank just by being recognized as being a crafter.

Then you're either not fully grasping the difference between a common artisan and one who's received recognition as an Accomplished or Master Artisan, or... You don't grasp the importance of artisans in Tuluk, as a whole.

Yes, just being recognized as an exceptional artisan in Tuluk was enough to elevate your social standing. By the very same principles bards have enjoyed that sort of social standing, just by (if we're going to overly simplify things) singing a good song. That's one of the fundamentally unique aspects of Tuluk, the importance they place on art and culture. Now it's just culture and sneakiness, we're tossing out art with the bathwater.

Perhaps this is a hint for Allanak to grab up some prime thematic real estate though, eh? If the North no longer recognizes its artisans as special, perhaps players who enjoy such roles should move South. Food for thought, for all you southern Nobles and Templars looking for something to do, or Merchants and Crafters tired of chasing after 'sid.

Being a crafter shouldn't make you particularly special as an independent - the population of Zalanthas presumably covets clanned jobs, but this never necessarily translated completely to the PC population, when it should have - especially in Tuluk, which players see as being the easier place to be an independent, despite all the fun that can be had through affiliation.

Being a crafter doesn't make you particularly special, as an independent or as a clanned individual. Being an exceptional crafter however does make you very, very special however. Or it used to. And whether you were an independent working under the patronage system or a fully-clanned employee, had nothing to do with it.

Furthermore, in order to rise to such a position, some level of patronage is assumed. It tends to go hand-in-hand with social standing for any commoner. However, just as Bards and Shadow Artists begin to sever their patronage cords as they rise in ranks, so would any rising Artisan. Someone viewed by society as a Master Artisan would no longer serve an individual patron, but society itself. That doesn't exactly fit into the picture you're trying to present, of a clear-cut push to shove PCs into clans, so I really can't see how its relevant to the change Nyr has decided on.

[Taven]

Is this how the chart is meant to be read?

Social Rank Chart in List Form -- From Highest to Lowest

Sun King (Exalted)
High Precentor (Exalted)
Inquisitors (Exalted)
Precentors (Exalted)
Illuminated (Templar)
Head of House (Chosen)
High Templar  (Templar)
Senior Family (Chosen)
Head of House (Merchant)
Templar (Templar)
Juior Family (Chosen)
General (Legions)
Circle Leader (Artisan)
Colonel (Legions)
Master Bard (Aristan)
Captain (Legions)
Master Shadow Artist (Artisan)
Senior Merchant (Merchant)
Lieutenant (Legions)
Senior noble/templar employee (Commoner)
Bard, Journeyman Shadow Artist (Artist)
Merchant, Byn Lieutenant (Merchant)
Sergeant (Legions)
Middle noble/Templar employee (Commoner)
Ranked Legion/Artistan/Lyksaen Slaves (Slaves)
Apprentice Shadow Artist (Artist)
Junior Merchant, Byn Sargeant (Merchant)
Corporal (Legions)
Seeker, Junior noble/templar employee (Commoner)
Ranked House Slaves/Artisan slaves (Slaves)
Entry-level employees (Merchant)
Private (Legions)
Apprentice of Poet's Circle (Commoner)
Personal Noble/templar slaves (Slaves)
Independant Commoner (Commoner)
Skilled slave (Slave)
Unskilled Slave (Slave)

[Cutthroat]

An artisan in the crafter sense is represented socially though, just not specifically for being an artisan. Either they are a partisan to someone (which would mean the standing of their patron affects their social standing), they are an employee of someone or a bard (which fits into the GMH employee/noble house employee/bard ranking part of the table), or they are independent (which makes them independent commoners).

The average artisan is represented, yes, as an independent commoner. Their talent or recognition in being elevated into a higher caste however, isn't. As it stands, an artisan is either one of many (an independent commoner, at the bottom of the rung) or... Whatever rank they can achieve through strictly clan association, and only within that clan. At which point what they are doesn't really matter as much as what their clan ranks them as. They're not "Master Artisans", they're "Senior Employees of Noble House or Templarate", no different than any non-Artisan senior employees in the Commoner caste. They receive no recognition from society for being what they are though, only what their organizational associations rank them as.

Their organizational associations would be ranking them in terms of their ability, though. Their rank isn't just "Senior Noble House Employee", it's "Master Stonecrafter of House Whatever" or "Master Stonecrafter and partisan of Chosen/Faithful Lord/Lady Fancy Pants". They're not missing out on any benefits gained from their status as an artisan, so long as they are employed.

I personally don't see the old issue being spamcrafting specifically, so much as it was being able to attain a high rank just by being recognized as being a crafter.

Then you're either not fully grasping the difference between a common artisan and one who's received recognition as an Accomplished or Master Artisan, or... You don't grasp the importance of artisans in Tuluk, as a whole.

Yes, just being recognized as an exceptional artisan in Tuluk was enough to elevate your social standing. By the very same principles bards have enjoyed that sort of social standing, just by (if we're going to overly simplify things) singing a good song. That's one of the fundamentally unique aspects of Tuluk, the importance they place on art and culture. Now it's just culture and sneakiness, we're tossing out art with the bathwater.

Perhaps this is a hint for Allanak to grab up some prime thematic real estate though, eh? If the North no longer recognizes its artisans as special, perhaps players who enjoy such roles should move South. Food for thought, for all you southern Nobles and Templars looking for something to do, or Merchants and Crafters tired of chasing after 'sid.

Actually, I'm pretty sure I do understand the difference and importance.

The bard/artisan comparison is moot if you're comparing an independent artisan to a bard, because bards have the backing of Poet's Circle, and there are established ranks in Poet's Circle, as well as arcs of learning. Independent artisans don't get the same, official recognition without being affiliated and being promoted within their clan in the first place (not that I'm aware of. If anything, it was uncommon). That's no oversimplification, simply the way things have been in practice. If anything, the old chart was an inaccurate representation of how things work in Tuluk, at least with respect to artisans.

The north still recognizes a place for artisans, there's just an increased emphasis on affiliation vs. being independent. For what it's worth, that thematically exists in Allanak as well. It does take players to play that out though.

However, just as Bards and Shadow Artists begin to sever their patronage cords as they rise in ranks, so would any rising Artisan. Someone viewed by society as a Master Artisan would no longer serve an individual patron, but society itself.

Do they? There's nothing in the documentation about that that I'm aware of.

[Ouroboros]

Their organizational associations would be ranking them in terms of their ability, though. Their rank isn't just "Senior Noble House Employee", it's "Master Stonecrafter of House Whatever" or "Master Stonecrafter and partisan of Chosen/Faithful Lord/Lady Fancy Pants". They're not missing out on any benefits gained from their status as an artisan, so long as they are employed.

That depends on both how you view the lateral social finer points (between the Artisans, Merchants, and Commoners in the Commoner class, for example), and how you view employment. There's a difference between Partisan and Employee, in every Chosen House. Employees are clanned, full-time members of those clans and in senior positions, many of whom take a lifeoath. Partisans are not considered employees of a Chosen House. As it stands then, artisan Partisans under your example are left only with independent commoner status and whatever small bump their patron's status affords them, not their own merit.

The bard/artisan comparison is moot if you're comparing an independent artisan to a bard, because bards have the backing of Poet's Circle, and there are established ranks in Poet's Circle, as well as arcs of learning. Independent artisans don't get the same, official recognition without being affiliated and being promoted within their clan in the first place (not that I'm aware of. If anything, it was uncommon). That's no oversimplification, simply the way things have been in practice. If anything, the old chart was an inaccurate representation of how things work in Tuluk, at least with respect to artisans.

Something being uncommon has no basis for thematic documentation. By that principle, both Exalted and Slave rankings don't need to go on the chart, because they're positions that aren't common amongst PCs. The old chart offered a full view of Tuluki society, not a day-to-day rank overview. Were Accomplished or Master Artisan PCs common? No. But like you said,  it does take players to play that out. Removing them entirely from the charts means they no longer exist, not are simply uncommon. As for what's happened in practice, that's entirely subjective. Your PCs may not have granted as much respect to esteemed artisans of Tuluk as someone else's might have, but as per the documentation, that respect was at least there and available to be earned.

The north still recognizes a place for artisans, there's just an increased emphasis on affiliation vs. being independent.

There's a difference however between affiliation and employment as well, and that's being lost here. I also still contend that the push you're seeing doesn't exist exactly as presented. The low-level push of PCs into clans evolves into independence from any single clan or employer the higher you get, it's not straight across the board. And the Artisan ranks we're discussing are high-level ones.

For what it's worth, that thematically exists in Allanak as well. It does take players to play that out though.

To a certain extent, definitely. It's just not what Allanak's renown for, and therein lies the difference. You think art and music, you think Tuluk. The seeds are there for a Southern focus on art though, certainly, and my point was that perhaps they should now be nurtured, not that they don't exist. In the end, it comes down to how a society treats it's members. Art thrived in Tuluk because society elevated artists above others and nurtured them to a large extent, and in turn those artists dedicated their time and talent into furthering their skill towards the betterment of society. Instead of following any other trade that might normally profit them, for example.

However, just as Bards and Shadow Artists begin to sever their patronage cords as they rise in ranks, so would any rising Artisan. Someone viewed by society as a Master Artisan would no longer serve an individual patron, but society itself.

Do they? There's nothing in the documentation about that that I'm aware of.

There isn't per se, no, because that aspect of the culture was never fully fleshed out, as the Bardic Circles were, and the Shadow Artists now are. However, you can extrapolate that from the fact that two out of three ranks in the Artisan caste, the only ones documented so far, function that way. It's a guess perhaps, but an educated one, that follows the same line of thought existent in other aspects of the culture.

This is certainly something I'd be happy to see staff develop in the documentation, but the lack of such doesn't affect my feelings on the chart either way. To put it another way... The chart elevated Artisans for a good many RL years, without needing any full-fledged documentation to back that up, much less a formally structured clan or organization. I see no reason Artisans can't continue to exist on the chart as they have, and let players aspiring to those ranks work for it IC with staff's assistance, should they so wish to. If having that structure in place is crucial to staff however, they can simply decide to finally flesh it out. Tossing out that aspect of Tuluki culture simply because they haven't yet fleshed it out seems... well, I'll say wrong, in place of a stronger word.

[Eurynomos]

D:

[Nyr]

As for the artisan rank...since it is partially known as a category solely attainable by spamcrafting, that should be removed from that help file.

Um... Those social ranks have nothing to do with skill ranks, Nyr. Being a Master Tailor in your skill lists doesn't make you a Master Artisan, any more than Master Backstab makes you a Master Shadow Artist, or Master Instrument Making makes you a Master Bard.

What I'm saying is that a master crafter is already defined as someone that has (master) beside a skill.  I've removed master crafter from the wording in the social hierarchy documentation.

Such positions revolve around social influence, recognition, and achievements. A Master Artisan would be someone that has shown exceptional dedication and mastery over their art, well-past what any skilled crafter might. They would have produced for example public art installations, received the favor of high-ranking patrons, and overall proven themselves not just skilled, but patriotic assets to Tuluki Society. They would potentially have apprentices of their own, and so forth.

Not anymore.

Artisan
    The artisan caste consists of the elite of the other two
common castes. Included in the artisan caste are ranked Circle bards
of Bard rank or above and extremely accomplished shadow artists.

If you have shown all of the things you have described here, you're going to already have societal rank that fits somewhere else in the chart.  Employees/partisans of a templar or noble or even of a merchant group...it all fits there.  It's fine.

If you are an accomplished artist of some Other discipline and can show significant support, then your supporter (patron or employer organization) should assign you an appropriate role in the rank structure.

I assume you mean in that patron's or organization's rank structure.

I don't.  I mean that there's a social hierarchy already.  There's no place for someone to just be really awesome at something independently, the only exception being extremely-long-lived independent organizations, which already have a place in the docs.  Sorry.

Furthermore, those artisans who have elevated themselves enjoy the privileges afforded to them by their social status. A status equal to that of recognized bards and shadow artists, not equal to whatever a given crafter might be in a House. Those artists also don't have to be permanently attached to a given patron or organization, they could elevate themselves and their status through independent dedication to the city. Such individuals would be entirely unrepresented in the social structure you're presenting now.

Sorry.  That doesn't exist in Tuluk, and shouldn't.  That's why it's being changed.

There are other things that will change with this revision of the caste structure as well, and maybe artisan is not a good name for shadow artists and bards....but it works for a quick and dirty update to a chart that has not seen work in 4 years.

No, the Artisan Caste is not the ideal name for bards and shadow artists, once you remove actual artisans from their own caste. It fit perfectly fine though while it included them.

Well, it's apparent we disagree then.  This isn't how Tuluk is going to be, nor is it how Tuluk should be.

Frankly I'm both worried and upset at the way you're seemingly eliminating one of the corner-stones of Tuluki Society: it's artists. Art is woven into the very fabric of Tuluk, and you can see that everywhere you turn in the city. Murals are being painted, sculptures are being carved. And bards and artisans are the two most recognizable and socially respected "trades" of that culture.

Murals painted by...established organizations or partisans of established organizations, whether they be tribal or noble or merchant in nature.  They already have a place in society.

Clearly you have some issues with crafter players and their "spamcrafting" but that's no reason to eliminate an entire aspect of an IC culture, especially if based on the fact you don't seem to comprehend it or appreciate it. But if you're planning on making the only formally recognized social caste Bards and your newly-revamped Shadow Artists, you're taking away a lot from the North and I can only hope someone else on staff can offer you perspective on this.

I removed master crafting and artisans of various disciplines.  As I said, I removed "master crafting" because that's skill-based and skill alone does not determine societal rank.  If you want social rank, hitch your wagon to someone that has social pull.

[Molten Heart]

With the new changes will someone's staus as a shadow artist be generally public knowledge or will this be considered confidential information?

[Nyr]

An artisan in the crafter sense is represented socially though, just not specifically for being an artisan. Either they are a partisan to someone (which would mean the standing of their patron affects their social standing), they are an employee of someone or a bard (which fits into the GMH employee/noble house employee/bard ranking part of the table), or they are independent (which makes them independent commoners).

The average artisan is represented, yes, as an independent commoner. Their talent or recognition in being elevated into a higher caste however, isn't. As it stands, an artisan is either one of many (an independent commoner, at the bottom of the rung) or... Whatever rank they can achieve through strictly clan association, and only within that clan. At which point what they are doesn't really matter as much as what their clan ranks them as. They're not "Master Artisans", they're "Senior Employees of Noble House or Templarate", no different than any non-Artisan senior employees in the Commoner caste. They receive no recognition from society for being what they are though, only what their organizational associations rank them as.

Correct.  You can't be socially awesome in Tuluk all by yourself with just your skills and your wits.

I personally don't see the old issue being spamcrafting specifically, so much as it was being able to attain a high rank just by being recognized as being a crafter.

Then you're either not fully grasping the difference between a common artisan and one who's received recognition as an Accomplished or Master Artisan, or... You don't grasp the importance of artisans in Tuluk, as a whole.

I'll be blunt: I really doubt anyone has ever recognized themselves (or been recognized by others) as an accomplished or master artisan without social backing in some other sense.  If they have been, it was an anomaly, and it should have been stamped out.  Just like having money doesn't grant you power in Zalanthas, having skill doesn't grant you social rank in Tuluk.

Yes, just being recognized as an exceptional artisan in Tuluk was enough to elevate your social standing. By the very same principles bards have enjoyed that sort of social standing, just by (if we're going to overly simplify things) singing a good song. That's one of the fundamentally unique aspects of Tuluk, the importance they place on art and culture. Now it's just culture and sneakiness, we're tossing out art with the bathwater.

Bards have a whole social organization backing them as well as a deeply ingrained history in Tuluk.  They're in docs everywhere.  Bards also have some minor emphasis on art.  You know who else (currently) has emphasis on artistic endeavors?  Kadius, Tenneshi, Akai Sjir.  Any patron can want something commissioned by an artisan or artist or an established group that already handles those things.

No one is saying that people can't play indie artists/artisans/whatever.  I am saying explicitly that such a thing does not give you social status in Tuluk's caste system.

Perhaps this is a hint for Allanak to grab up some prime thematic real estate though, eh? If the North no longer recognizes its artisans as special, perhaps players who enjoy such roles should move South. Food for thought, for all you southern Nobles and Templars looking for something to do, or Merchants and Crafters tired of chasing after 'sid.

If you enjoy playing an artisan, play where you want to play.
If you enjoy playing a snowflake artisan that has no ties to anyone and wants to succeed purely on skill, roleplay, and moxie, go right ahead and play where you want to play as well.  This tactic will (for the most part) result in a very difficult role to play that will (more than likely) end with your PC's death. 

An independent artisan with no backing is a target.

Being a crafter shouldn't make you particularly special as an independent - the population of Zalanthas presumably covets clanned jobs, but this never necessarily translated completely to the PC population, when it should have - especially in Tuluk, which players see as being the easier place to be an independent, despite all the fun that can be had through affiliation.

Being a crafter doesn't make you particularly special, as an independent or as a clanned individual. Being an exceptional crafter however does make you very, very special however. Or it used to. And whether you were an independent working under the patronage system or a fully-clanned employee, had nothing to do with it.

If you're an independent working under the patronage system...you're not an independent.

Furthermore, in order to rise to such a position, some level of patronage is assumed. It tends to go hand-in-hand with social standing for any commoner. However, just as Bards and Shadow Artists begin to sever their patronage cords as they rise in ranks, so would any rising Artisan.

Well, seeing as how that's not (and has never been) in the docs, I can tell you that no, this is not what happens and it is not what is going to happen.

Someone viewed by society as a Master Artisan would no longer serve an individual patron, but society itself.

This is one area of the documentation where you can't extrapolate from one area to another.

[Nyr]

Their organizational associations would be ranking them in terms of their ability, though. Their rank isn't just "Senior Noble House Employee", it's "Master Stonecrafter of House Whatever" or "Master Stonecrafter and partisan of Chosen/Faithful Lord/Lady Fancy Pants". They're not missing out on any benefits gained from their status as an artisan, so long as they are employed.

That depends on both how you view the lateral social finer points (between the Artisans, Merchants, and Commoners in the Commoner class, for example), and how you view employment. There's a difference between Partisan and Employee, in every Chosen House. Employees are clanned, full-time members of those clans and in senior positions, many of whom take a lifeoath. Partisans are not considered employees of a Chosen House. As it stands then, artisan Partisans under your example are left only with independent commoner status and whatever small bump their patron's status affords them, not their own merit.

Sounds like this could be easily fixed by just saying that in some cases, partisans fall into the same categories on the chart as employees.

The bard/artisan comparison is moot if you're comparing an independent artisan to a bard, because bards have the backing of Poet's Circle, and there are established ranks in Poet's Circle, as well as arcs of learning. Independent artisans don't get the same, official recognition without being affiliated and being promoted within their clan in the first place (not that I'm aware of. If anything, it was uncommon). That's no oversimplification, simply the way things have been in practice. If anything, the old chart was an inaccurate representation of how things work in Tuluk, at least with respect to artisans.

Something being uncommon has no basis for thematic documentation. By that principle, both Exalted and Slave rankings don't need to go on the chart, because they're positions that aren't common amongst PCs. The old chart offered a full view of Tuluki society, not a day-to-day rank overview. Were Accomplished or Master Artisan PCs common? No. But like you said,  it does take players to play that out. Removing them entirely from the charts means they no longer exist, not are simply uncommon. As for what's happened in practice, that's entirely subjective. Your PCs may not have granted as much respect to esteemed artisans of Tuluk as someone else's might have, but as per the documentation, that respect was at least there and available to be earned.

The old chart was created by a staffer that didn't get official approval (which is why it was never linked anywhere on the old website, you had to know the specific location of the link).  It got official approval and something of a revamp when I took a look at it a few years ago with Adhira and Vanth.  There was stuff in there we removed, like a Shunned caste that wasn't anywhere else in the documentation.  It then remain untouched (and still relatively obscure) and unlinked (not really sure why we never popped it in anywhere) until this week, where we were finally at a point where the stuff on that caste chart actually mattered.  And yeah, it's getting a facelift and things still might change on it.

I wouldn't get too worked up about it.  It was obscure and occasionally referenced.  Now it's not, but it's being changed (and not just for the sake of change).  I've explained why.

The north still recognizes a place for artisans, there's just an increased emphasis on affiliation vs. being independent.

There's a difference however between affiliation and employment as well, and that's being lost here. I also still contend that the push you're seeing doesn't exist exactly as presented. The low-level push of PCs into clans evolves into independence from any single clan or employer the higher you get, it's not straight across the board. And the Artisan ranks we're discussing are high-level ones.

Like I said, it sounds like this can be easily rectified by making it clear that partisans fall into the ranks of employees for the purposes of social ranking in some cases.

For what it's worth, that thematically exists in Allanak as well. It does take players to play that out though.

To a certain extent, definitely. It's just not what Allanak's renown for, and therein lies the difference. You think art and music, you think Tuluk. The seeds are there for a Southern focus on art though, certainly, and my point was that perhaps they should now be nurtured, not that they don't exist. In the end, it comes down to how a society treats it's members. Art thrived in Tuluk because society elevated artists above others and nurtured them to a large extent, and in turn those artists dedicated their time and talent into furthering their skill towards the betterment of society. Instead of following any other trade that might normally profit them, for example.

Art thrived in Tuluk because society elevated artists that had affiliation or employment in some other capacity.  Tuluk is not meant to be a shrine to independent boot-strappy-ness.

However, just as Bards and Shadow Artists begin to sever their patronage cords as they rise in ranks, so would any rising Artisan. Someone viewed by society as a Master Artisan would no longer serve an individual patron, but society itself.

Do they? There's nothing in the documentation about that that I'm aware of.

There isn't per se, no, because that aspect of the culture was never fully fleshed out, as the Bardic Circles were, and the Shadow Artists now are. However, you can extrapolate that from the fact that two out of three ranks in the Artisan caste, the only ones documented so far, function that way. It's a guess perhaps, but an educated one, that follows the same line of thought existent in other aspects of the culture.

It's probably not going to be fleshed out the way you are expecting.  There was extensive stuff in the documentation for years supporting bards.  There was a smaller amount of stuff in the documentation for years supporting shadow artists.  The only place artisans and their "rank" showed up was on an obscure page that is now ported to the main website with changes, the main change being "gee, this is a bit of an anomaly, let's put it somewhere else."

This is certainly something I'd be happy to see staff develop in the documentation, but the lack of such doesn't affect my feelings on the chart either way. To put it another way... The chart elevated Artisans for a good many RL years, without needing any full-fledged documentation to back that up, much less a formally structured clan or organization. I see no reason Artisans can't continue to exist on the chart as they have, and let players aspiring to those ranks work for it IC with staff's assistance, should they so wish to. If having that structure in place is crucial to staff however, they can simply decide to finally flesh it out. Tossing out that aspect of Tuluki culture simply because they haven't yet fleshed it out seems... well, I'll say wrong, in place of a stronger word.

Pluto still exists even if it's not called a planet anymore.  Artists and artisans still exist even if they don't have a special spot dedicated to them in an ambiguously written part of the documentation.

[Nyr]

With the new changes will someone's staus as a shadow artist be generally public knowledge or will this be considered confidential information?

Ah, questions about the system! 

This is up to the artist.  Put your registration on your cheek like James de Monet's picture?  Hard to hide that one...put it on your buttcheek?  Sure, you can hide your status as an artist if you want, to whatever ends you might wish!  It doesn't mean that people can't find out though (I mean, you might get naked at some point).