Luir's Outpost and Crime

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Groovy.

[Ouroboros]

Jherlen is correct.

Luir's Outpost is not just another village - it's a fortified structure held by House Kurac, and peopled almost entirely by their family and employees. It does support a small, mostly transient population, but they're only permitted to live in the relatively lawless shanty town between the walls.

Yes, all the real-estate inside is being used by Kurac.

You can start in Luirs, and have Luirs in your background. You can be born there or raised there. But unless you're a Kuraci, you're not a 'citizen.' Citizenship is basically a meaningless concept in Luir's Outpost.

Then I would suggest the above-mentioned retcons begin, starting with the removal of players being able to pay for citizenship and ending with documentation changed to clearly reflect this view, which so far has been vague and conflicting. I would also question the validity of being able to be born and raised in the Outpost at all, and it's option as a starting location.

It seems that an entirely different direction had begun for the Outpost, including citizenship and jails that were intended to eventually be codedly used, and has now shifted into a different direction with code and documentation relics left behind.

It also seems like with this new direction, anyone born and raised in the Outpost outside of family and sponsored Fist roles is entirely limited to having been born and raised in the Bailey only. If that's the case, and what the starting location actually represents, it should be clearly defined and as 7DV suggested, expanded on. Players point there should start -in- the Bailey, which itself should be more fleshed out and treated more like the 'rinth. Right now it's conceptually the same as being able to point to Allanak, and with no documentation stating this, implying that everyone that points to 'nak outside of Nobility and Templars is actually not from there but the 'rinth.

[Jherlen]

I don't actually think much retconning needs to happen. There isn't and has never been significant housing (real or virtual) in Luir's outside the Bailey that needs to be retconned. This could be clarified in the docs, though.

Re: Citizenship in Luir's - I played a character in charge of granting this for some time. It was a while ago, but what it basically amounts to is making yourself known to Kurac and having word passed around for people to be (slightly) less suspicious of you. Unless things have changed (they may have), Kurac doesn't really confer any special rights on "citizens" or keep them from "non-citizens", what you get for the privilege, basically, is that the Fist won't throw you out quite as quickly for overstaying your welcome. There are tangible benefits for PCs, sure, but let's call it what it is: basically a bribe to House Kurac to live under their protection.

I'd say anyone born and raised in the Outpost was either raised in the Bailey or had at least one parent who worked for Kurac somehow. The Kuraci aren't totally heartless, and I imagine they'd let their employees keep children with them in whatever living quarters, barracks, etc. was provided. Once the children grew old enough they'd probably be put to some sort of work. Or, alternately, they aren't even from Luir's at all; they're a tribal from the surrounding regions, or a trader/caravan follower from somewhere else who made Luir's their central hub.

The existence of a jail doesn't really mean much - any outpost or military installation of Luir's size would need some sort of holding pen. And as we all know from the very reason this thread was founded, Kuraci justice doesn't tend to involve long stays in jail.

I don't see the point of having new players in Luir's start in the Bailey, though. The actual starting room in a city is just for convenience, I don't think it's meant to make any sort of statement about a city or its background at all.

[Ouroboros]

Re: Citizenship in Luir's - I played a character in charge of granting this for some time. It was a while ago, but what it basically amounts to is making yourself known to Kurac and having word passed around for people to be (slightly) less suspicious of you.

Or to simply pay the 500 coin fee to the NPC in-charge of granting citizenship, as there is in both city-states. Last I checked that NPC was alive and present in the Outpost, and if they weren't recently removed, they certainly should be now.

Unless things have changed (they may have), Kurac doesn't really confer any special rights on "citizens" or keep them from "non-citizens", what you get for the privilege, basically, is that the Fist won't throw you out quite as quickly for overstaying your welcome. There are tangible benefits for PCs, sure, but let's call it what it is: basically a bribe to House Kurac to live under their protection.

I'd probably have avoided bringing that up in a GDB discussion, but since you have... Yes, it codedly meant absolutely nothing. What it was intended to do though is work alongside the Outpost's crimcode and the coded utilization of the jail by NPCs. That work stalled out on staff's end though, leaving behind those confusing relics of code (much like the NPCs that are the topic of discussion to begin with). What rights citizenship would have offered past that is anyone's guess. But as I said, it appears staff has once again changed directions in what they want to see the Outpost be.

The existence of a jail doesn't really mean much - any outpost or military installation of Luir's size would need some sort of holding pen. And as we all know from the very reason this thread was founded, Kuraci justice doesn't tend to involve long stays in jail.

Actually... The jail didn't always exist in Luir's, exactly because it wasn't needed in the past. Because during that time the Outpost functioned more like it seems to be driven towards now, a military installation with no laws needed to protect non-existing citizens and no likely outcome other than summary execution. The jail was implemented (along with many other structural changes to the Outpost), with the intent of it eventually being used by NPC soldiers as jails function in the city-states, with the addition and implementation of crimcode. The Kuraci Fist then would function as the militia does in either city-state, including PC's clanned in it. It was meant to be a step towards a more civil-minded Outpost, that would reflect the fact it had grown past a purely military installation and into a thriving trade market that had attracted permanent residents. Instead, all it serves now is a place for executions to quietly take place without the IC bloody mess or the OOC risk of NPC Fist ganking PC Fist due to the said lack of crimcode.

I don't see the point of having new players in Luir's start in the Bailey, though. The actual starting room in a city is just for convenience, I don't think it's meant to make any sort of statement about a city or its background at all.

It doesn't have to, sure, when the interior of the Outpost is a few rooms away. It's a minor detail. Then again, the 'rinth is only a short distance from the legal boundry of 'nak. Sometimes the small details serve to drive home a point that might otherwise be lost.

[26 dollars]

After reading your last post, I can tell you haven't played in House Kurac in some time.  It might be polite not to litter this thread with more misconceptions.

[Ouroboros]

After reading your last post, I can tell you haven't played in House Kurac in some time.  It might be polite not to litter this thread with more misconceptions.

That, in and of itself, would be a misconception. I will be polite however, yes, and point out this is an open discussion where all are welcome to share their thoughts.

It might be polite for you in turn not to dismiss another's view as rubbish, simply because your own opinion or experience might differ. Not everyone sees the same view from where they, or their characters, stand.

[solera]

 

Citizenship is basically a meaningless concept in Luir's Outpost.

You can buy it in Luirs, unless that's changed.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I was playing in Kurac when the jail was built. It was indeed intended to be used for a crim code at one point.

[Molten Heart]

Citizenship is basically a meaningless concept in Luir's Outpost.

You can buy it in Luirs, unless that's changed.

If this is still possible, being a "citizen" doesn't mean much.  Sometimes this is only an advantage when you want to stop being a citizen of somewhere else.

[26 dollars]

After reading your last post, I can tell you haven't played in House Kurac in some time.  It might be polite not to litter this thread with more misconceptions.

That, in and of itself, would be a misconception. I will be polite however, yes, and point out this is an open discussion where all are welcome to share their thoughts.

It might be polite for you in turn not to dismiss another's view as rubbish, simply because your own opinion or experience might differ. Not everyone sees the same view from where they, or their characters, stand.

Here, let me help you out:

There are indeed a lot of misconceptions about the Outpost, and the most prominent one is exactly that: That it has no citizens outside of Kuraci employees.

Wrong.

Instead, all it serves now is a place for executions to quietly take place without the IC bloody mess or the OOC risk of NPC Fist ganking PC Fist due to the said lack of crimcode.

Wrong.

You're 0/2.  Granted, I will agree with this statement (the only one stated as opinion):

Last I checked that NPC was alive and present in the Outpost, and if they weren't recently removed, they certainly should be now.

[evilcabbage]

After reading your last post, I can tell you haven't played in House Kurac in some time.  It might be polite not to litter this thread with more misconceptions.

That, in and of itself, would be a misconception. I will be polite however, yes, and point out this is an open discussion where all are welcome to share their thoughts.

It might be polite for you in turn not to dismiss another's view as rubbish, simply because your own opinion or experience might differ. Not everyone sees the same view from where they, or their characters, stand.

Here, let me help you out:

There are indeed a lot of misconceptions about the Outpost, and the most prominent one is exactly that: That it has no citizens outside of Kuraci employees.

Wrong.

Instead, all it serves now is a place for executions to quietly take place without the IC bloody mess or the OOC risk of NPC Fist ganking PC Fist due to the said lack of crimcode.

Wrong.

You're 0/2.  Granted, I will agree with this statement (the only one stated as opinion):

Last I checked that NPC was alive and present in the Outpost, and if they weren't recently removed, they certainly should be now.

I think Italis confirmed Ouroboros' statements, so, sorry to say uhm... you're wrong?

[26 dollars]

On second thought, I should apologize.  Having spent half of the last three or so years in Luir's, my perception is stubbornly set, taking as best as I can glean from the room descriptions, the documentation, and answers I have received from staff.  I don't honestly know where you get your facts from.  It is my personal view that you're wrong.

[26 dollars]

I think Italis confirmed Ouroboros' statements, so, sorry to say uhm... you're wrong?

You, sir, have the reading comprehension of a cabbage.  No, just kidding.  You should go back and read the thread, though.

[evilcabbage]

I'd certainly have living quarters in the bailey. Give the Bailey a wild west feel. Keep only the guards at the gates, and at the gates of the outpost, and have no Kuraci NPCs patrolling the Bailey. Throw in more structures in the bailey to reflect the enviroment. Throw in NPCs to do the same. Basically, Rinth it up.

I'm good with this picture of the Outpost.

Currently this is the case, it's just virtual.

However, a bailey upgrade project is already in the works - although rentable apartments is not going to happen. At least not in the existing form.

I think I did read the thread.

[26 dollars]

The defense rests.

[Ouroboros]

There are indeed a lot of misconceptions about the Outpost, and the most prominent one is exactly that: That it has no citizens outside of Kuraci employees.

Wrong.

The fact any PC has been able to purchase citizenship for years now says otherwise. The fact it's been an oversight on staff's part, or more specifically, a project left half-done and forgotten, doesn't make it any less valid. What that citizenship might mean is entirely debatable, whether Luir's currently can have citizens, isn't.

Instead, all it serves now is a place for executions to quietly take place without the IC bloody mess or the OOC risk of NPC Fist ganking PC Fist due to the said lack of crimcode.

Wrong.

Let me rephrase then, since you missed the point. The jail has no coded function with regards to crimcode, given Luir's still lacks crimcode. When it was added, it was intended to be tied to a crimcode that was never completed. All it serves now is... whatever Kuraci PCs want to do with it, like any other clan-guarded locked room. That easier to stomach?

On second thought, I should apologize.  Having spent half of the last three or so years in Luir's, my perception is stubbornly set, taking as best as I can glean from the room descriptions, the documentation, and answers I have received from staff.  I don't honestly know where you get your facts from.  It is my personal view that you're wrong.

Like I said, your view and experience differs from those of others. And your bias is inevitable as well, for the very reasons you've stated. As for my facts, they rest partly in knowing the history of the clan and the direction it was being taken in, and partly in what I've gleaned myself and logic dictates. The former is based on hard fact, which you can still partly dig up in the clan boards if you're interested in knowing what came before you. The later is completely subjective, as everyone's opinion always is.

Without clear-cut documentation speaking one way or another, and with conflicting signs in-game, anyone's guess is as valid as another's. I just tried to base mine on logic and facts, instead of gut feelings and nuance developed over extended time in the clan. Either way, you shouldn't have to ask where I get my facts, when I've clearly laid them out.

Staff has refrained from setting down clarification on the matter of Luir's residency for a long time now, both on the general board and the clan board. Perhaps because its direction was still being decided, perhaps because it's too grey an area to set in stone, or perhaps because they simply can't keep up with every single discussion thread. Whatever the case, Italis has now clarified the matter for everyone, and all that remains is for this official stance to be reflected in code and documentation more clearly. And perhaps for you to take a step back and be a little less aggressive towards differing opinions, as it's not conducive to discussion.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I think the point 26 is trying to make is that people in the Bailey aren't really citizens. They are transient, often not locals. Often times they are displaced from elsewhere. There's no law to protect them, because they aren't citizens of the Outpost - they are people granted the privilege of being, honestly, meat shields.  Although out-right murder isn't tolerated in the Bailey, in practice, it's also not necessarily actively investigated in the way that it is for citizens of a state.

The only protection folks in the Bailey should expect is protection from an initial assault on the Outpost itself. And the nature of a bailey means that even that protection comes secondary to the protection of the actual outpost. The entire reason the Bailey was even built was to help prevent something that happened before from happening again by creating a killing field.

So no, people in the Bailey are not citizens. But yes, people have, by now, grew up there, and live there.

26 and cabbage, You're both right.

[evilcabbage]

I accept Venomz statement.

[26 dollars]

As for my facts, they rest partly in knowing the history of the clan and the direction it was being taken in, and partly in what I've gleaned myself and logic dictates. The former is based on hard fact, which you can still partly dig up in the clan boards if you're interested in knowing what came before you. The later is completely subjective, as everyone's opinion always is.

I went back 7 years into the clan boards before I got bored.  I didn't find what you're talking about.  More to the point:  so what?  Tuluk didn't have a gender-broken templarate years ago, and then it did.  And now it doesn't.  And there used to be a volcano in Allanak.  Then, there wasn't.  Mantis used to live in Luir's, and then they didn't.  And so on, and so forth.  Directions change, but intent to do a thing and doing a thing (like being correct) are not the same.

Speaking of change, there should be fresh, new Kuraci documentation, soon.  It was soon, right?  That'd be cool.

[Italis]

For the record, the purchase-Luirs-citizenship NPC was actually removed from the game given a new job a long, long time ago, because it did nothing.

[BleakOne]

I never thought I'd see the day when a chain-smoking crab is a source of wisdom to me.

I have seen the day.

[Ouroboros]

Tuluk didn't have a gender-broken templarate years ago, and then it did.  And now it doesn't.  And there used to be a volcano in Allanak.  Then, there wasn't.  Mantis used to live in Luir's, and then they didn't.  And so on, and so forth.  Directions change, but intent to do a thing and doing a thing (like being correct) are not the same.

The difference is, the changes you mentioned actually took place. The direction the Outpost was being taken in was left hanging mid-sentence for several years, with half the code in place, half promised to come, and more suggested at. Compounding the problem is that none of it was ever officially taken off the production slate, leading to conflicting views being easy to develop. The work on the Bailey that Italis mentioned is under development for example, was planned since the rebuilding and expansion of the Outpost was taking place. It's great to hear that's being looked at currently though and I'm eager to see it develop.

Speaking of change, there should be fresh, new Kuraci documentation, soon.  It was soon, right?  That'd be cool.

Agreed. And such documentation would go a long way in sharing what staff's current vision of Kurac and the Outpost actually is, so we're not left playing Sherlock and guessing at facts from hints and hunches. Or worse, aggressively feeling that only our view is right and refusing to actually participate in an open discussion in a constructive manner.

So no, people in the Bailey are not citizens. But yes, people have, by now, grew up there, and live there.

Agreed. The difference lies in the distinction between residents and citizens. The Outpost has non-Kuraci residents, in the Bailey. Their number might be small, but this number has also increased over time due to birthrate and certain events such as the Fall of Tuluk. How small it is compared to the relatively small population of the Outpost as a whole is anyone's guess. When you consider that residents exist, and you see that citizenship at least up until a point was available, it's really not hard to jump to a conclusion that a native population of citizens was the intended direction of the Outpost. Especially when the main distinction between residents and citizens lies in legal rights, which were being developed as part of the crimcode.

Whatever the case, I'm glad that Italis stepped forward in clarifying the matter and I'm more than willing to accept that my guess at the facts was wrong and other's guesses at the facts were right, given until now we had no confirmation from staff on what's actually true and what isn't.

[Eurynomos]

Also to clarify another misconception, there are no NPC's in either Allanak or Tuluk that can be paid to grant you citizenship. And as mentioned by Italis, the one that hung around Luir's has been altered as of earlier this year.

[Red Ranger]

I'd certainly have living quarters in the bailey. Give the Bailey a wild west feel. Keep only the guards at the gates, and at the gates of the outpost, and have no Kuraci NPCs patrolling the Bailey. Throw in more structures in the bailey to reflect the enviroment. Throw in NPCs to do the same. Basically, Rinth it up.

I'm good with this picture of the Outpost.

I'd love to see the "ecosystem" of the Bailey fleshed out more, and I'm excited to see that this is a current staff project. However, personally I would like to see the Bailey less like the Labyrinth and more like Deadwood or Mos Eisley. Both are dusty, seedy, and criminal but both still have The Law in their midst. It just so happens that The Law is fairly uninterested in anything but the most major stuff. Another example that's been in my mind ever since the Bailey went into the game is from A Song of Ice and Fire: the Fishmarket milieu that grew up in the narrow space between the Blackwater Rush and the walls of King's Landing.

Tyrion describes it below (from chapter 50 of aCoK):

Mounted, he gazed along the riverfront. Hammers rang in the morning air as carpenters swarmed over the Mud Gate, extending wooden hoardings from the battlements. Those were coming well. He was a deal less pleased by the clutter of ramshackle structures that had been allowed to grow up behind the quays, attaching themselves to the city walls like barnacles on the hull of a ship; bait shacks and pot-shops, warehouses, merchants' stalls, alehouses, the cribs where the cheaper sort of whores spread their legs. It has to go, every bit of it. As it was, Stannis would hardly need scaling ladders to storm the walls.
   He called Bronn to his side. "Assemble a hundred men and burn everything you see here between the water's edge and the city walls." He waved his stubby fingers, taking in all the waterfront squalor. "I want nothing left standing, do you understand?"
The black-haired sellsword turned his head, considering the task. "Them as own all this won't like that much."
"I never imagined they would. So be it; they'll have something else to curse the evil monkey demon for."
"Some may fight."
"See that they lose."
"What do we do with those that live here?"
"Let them have a reasonable time to remove their property, and then move them out. Try not to kill any of them, they're not the enemy. And no more rapes! Keep your men in line, damn it."

Just like a Kuraci would approach clearing out the Bailey in advance of hostilities!

Here's more spice for thought: what if a hardscrabble city elf trading clan established itself in the dingy, dusty bailey of Luir's, and what if that city elf clan were a branch of an Allanakki city elf clan... or vice versa?

[Ouroboros]

Also to clarify another misconception, there are no NPC's in either Allanak or Tuluk that can be paid to grant you citizenship. And as mentioned by Italis, the one that hung around Luir's has been altered as of earlier this year.

Appreciate the heads-up on that Eurynomos. I knew it wasn't "a long, long time ago" but I wasn't about to press the issue. If that's been taken care of though, it's one less bit of conflicting code floating around.

(lots of good ideas)

I agree with how you view the Bailey, it's definitely more how I've pictured it as well. Not sure on the city elves though, mostly because the Outpost tends to attract more desert elves, tribals and other nomads, than actual city folk. Especially regarding ones from the 'rinth, who seem far more likely to branch out to Red Storm than Luir's. That said.. Given the amount of Tuluki refugees the Outpost has received over the years, I suppose I could see something like that developed from Akai transients? Food for thought.